Selling Logos 4 rather than upgrading to Logos 5

I've been a Logos customer for over eight years. I've decided that I won't be upgrading to Logos 5. The broken promises surrounding the Logos 4 release (especially the pre-publication feature advertised as "coming soon" and it turning out to be over a year), and the Logos 5 marketing strategy have left a bad taste in my mouth.

In order to maintain the "platinum" package label I'd have to drop over $600, and not get anything I really want or need. Sure, I would get a few books, but very little I'd even consider purchasing separately.

Does anyone know if the $20 fee to transfer your license to someone else is a one time blanket fee for the entire transaction, or is it per package, or per resource or what? I have Logos 4 Platinum, Word Biblical Commentary, and the HALOT/BDAG bundle. Would that be three times $20 to sell everything? Or just $20 if it all went to one buyer?

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T Gerold Castle

Just $20 for the entire transaction to a single user. Good luck.

Mark Smith

In order to maintain the "platinum" package label I'd have to drop over $600, and not get anything I really want or need. Sure, I would get a few books, but very little I'd even consider purchasing separately.

So why not wait until the free L5 engine is available or the lower cost minimal crossgrade is available? Those are other options.

Brandon Vaughn

If either of you have the New International Commentary set (with Gordon Fee), I'd be happy to talk to you about taking over your library.

Thanks,

Brandon

Marc Johnson

If you dont see anything in Logos 5 that you need then maybe the upgrade is not for you. As some have said, maybe the engine only would be best. What features are you missing in Logos 4?

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/414510#Comment_414510

I considered that, but I don't feel good about sending any more money to Logos at all. Part of this has to do with not being happy with Logos, and part of it is that I've been convicted lately about buying up so many books beyond what I could ever possibly use at great cost when there are still so many people in this world with no church and without even a shred of Scripture in their own language.

Instead of justifying the expense of a needless upgrade as being to somehow "promote" God's Kingdom as I have in the past, I'm going to use the funds God has entrusted to me to support the work of Bible translation for the Bible-less and discipling the unreached. This isn't a judgment on the rest of Logos customers, it's just how I am being convicted about my own misuse of finances. I'll put together a handful of resources for whatever book I'm studying (individual commentaries, original language tools, etc.) and sell them off when I'm done.

To explain more fully why I'm unhappy with Logos:

I wrote "pre-pubs" above when I actually meant PBBs (Personal Book Builder). The PBB feature was a big deal to me, as I had a LOT of pre-pub resources in Logos 3. When the upgrade to Logos 4 happened, Logos promised that the PBB feature would be "coming soon". In reality it took almost two years for them to release the PBB capability. If they had been up front with us at Logos 4 release time and told us that PBB ranked among their absolute lowest priorities (which is not surprising since there's no money to be made in PBBs) I would not have purchased Logos 4 in the first place.

The fact that they are now using the same names in Logos 5 for completely different packages (Logos 4 platinum != Logos 5 platinum) is bothersome to me. I bought the resources in my library. These resources are expensive because they fund the software development. The software is just there to allow me to search and read these resources. To change the resource package the same label refers to just because of a software update is not cool. The Logos 5 "platinum" package does not contain upgraded versions of old resources, only upgraded software. The old "platinum" label of my Logos 4 package is now deprecated not because the resources are obsolete or old, but because "platinum" now refers to a different, way more expensive (but not necessarily equally valuable) package. I can totally understand why they would do this from a business standpoint, as it pressures customers to cough up large amounts of money in order to maintain the same "label" applied to their Logos 4 library. I just don't appreciate it personally.

The third bothersome thing is that there is no way to upgrade to the Logos 5 software at the moment for us "old" customers. I guess the new message is that you have to pay up if you want to keep playing. I just don't see how the huge price tags are justified. Logos 3 to Logos 4 upgrades included more resources, and more highly sought after resources for the same kind of money. I can imagine the marketing meetings that happened at Logos:

"We need more money. How do we increase revenue?"

"Let's release a software update"

"But our customers understand that they're buying the library, not the software. They're not going to pay the kind of money we need for new software"

"So let's create new resource packages"

"But our customers are already pretty happy with their libraries at this point, plus they're pretty happy with the features of Logos 4. They're not going to purchase new resource packages, they'll just do the free upgrade to the new Logos 5 engine."

"We will make them wait to receive the free Logos 5 engine. They will be stuck using Logos 4 until everyone who has upgraded to a new package will."

"Okay, but you still didn't explain why a substantial portion of our existing customers will want to upgrade when they are already happy with their libraries at this point."

"Let's downgrade their Logos 4 package labels in the new Logos 5. A customer who had Logos 4 Gold will now have to pay a huge amount of money to maintain 'Gold', or else pay a little bit and end up with Logos 5 'starter'. This way customers will feel that their current library now has less value and will feel pressured to upgrade."

"Our customers will never go for that! How are we going to retain our customer base if we pull tricks like this? We can't just downgrade their libraries, how stupid do you think they are?"

"Hmm, good point. Although you should see the analogies people use on the Logos forums comparing upgrading Logos Bible software to upgrading cars and other physical things that depreciate and wear over time... Plus, many of them will defend us no matter what we do as if we were a humanitarian organization creating Bible software for the good of the world, rather than a business which is first and foremost about making a profit. Heck, there's even a lot of folks on the forums that call people out for being 'unspiritual' for legitimately criticizing our business practices... To them, we can do no wrong! We're doing 'God's work'!"

"Okay, you have me there. But back to the point, we can't just downgrade their library labels arbitrarily. People will be outraged."

"Well, let's just add a handful of resources - many of them public domain - to each Logos 4 package label and then claim that all packages are now 'Brand-New'. That way they can't say they're being downgraded."

"Perfect. We will have to price these "Brand-New" packages just a little beyond the maximum that people could possibly fathom paying. Our existing customers won't be happy about it, but they'll pay up anyways, justifying the huge expense as being for 'the Kingdom' (rightly or wrongly). We will give our software to people who can't afford it if they will agree to be in debt to us, charging interest on their debt after a period of time."

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/415929#Comment_415929

The fact that they are now using the same names in Logos 5 for completely different packages (Logos 4 platinum != Logos 5 platinum) is bothersome to me. I bought the resources in my library. These resources are expensive because they fund the software development. The software is just there to allow me to search and read these resources. To change the resource package the same label refers to just because of a software update is not cool. The Logos 5 "platinum" package does not contain upgraded versions of old resources, only upgraded software. The old "platinum" label of my Logos 4 package is now deprecated not because the resources are obsolete or old, but because "platinum" now refers to a different, way more expensive (but not necessarily equally valuable) package. I can totally understand why they would do this from a business standpoint, as it pressures customers to cough up large amounts of money in order to maintain the same "label" applied to their Logos 4 library. I just don't appreciate it personally.

In a different thread Bob Pritchett (Logos CEO) replied yesterday => http://community.logos.com/forums/p/58160/414182.aspx#414182

Why couldn't they just keep Platinum named Platinum and call this new Platinum by another name? How about even "Platinum Plus" or "Platinum 1.2" if you're so in love with retaining "Platinum"?

I'm sorry for the confusion created by the package names. We've been "re-using" collection names for changing collections for many years. (We've had a "Scholar's Library" for over a decade.) The collections are always changing -- the (KF) (JG) and other letter designations reflect changed collections as books are added, removed, etc. based on user needs and publisher licenses.

This particular cycle involved much bigger changes to the collections than in the past -- we even did away with some names (like Christian Home, Bible Study Library, Leader's, etc.) and decided to standardize this time on a more obviously hierarchical value proposition: Bronze, Silver, Gold, Platinum, Diamond, etc.

This name re-use has confused some people, for which I'm sorry. Having Platinum 4 doesn't mean you can only move to Platinum 5 -- you can upgrade to Bronze 5, or any other collection you'd like. In every case you just get (and only pay for!) what's different between what you have and what you're getting.

The levels are levels of book and content collections -- there isn't anything else to a level. We could call Platinum "The Fred Collection" -- it's just a named set of resources that's a different set than Bronze ("The Joe Collection"). We named them in hierarchy just to indicate which one has more resources. But really, all the 5 generation collections have more and different resources than the 4 generation.

-- Bob

Looking at personalized Logos 5 upgrade => http://www.logos.com/upgrade noticed delta increase for upgrading to Portfolio over Diamond includes new useful resources for my Logos library, which are less than 10 % of the regular price for individual purchases = awesome Big Smile

The third bothersome thing is that there is no way to upgrade to the Logos 5 software at the moment for us "old" customers.

Suggest reading Bob Pritchett's post => Official: Minimum Crossgrade and free engine download are coming!

I guess the new message is that you have to pay up if you want to keep playing. I just don't see how the huge price tags are justified.

Bob Pritchett, Logos CEO, has replied recently with a profitable observation (Income - Expenses = Profit) => http://community.logos.com/forums/p/58162/414162.aspx#414162 Another reply => http://community.logos.com/forums/p/58026/413124.aspx#413124 includes 2012 profit insights (0.38 % so far this year):

What would a reasonable profit margin be?

For what it's worth, I got our third-quarter financials earlier this week. For 2012 so far, the Logos profit margin was just about 0.38%. (Not 38%. Less than half of one percent.

Now I'm not looking for sympathy -- we're fine. It's better than that most years, and the first three quarters of this year reflect a lot of investment in Logos 5 that hadn't yet generated any revenue. (That's what we're doing now!) I expect we'll end the year with solid single-digit profitability, and we've beaten that in the past.

But the point is, we have to sell something in order to be here to serve you into the future. It's insanely expensive to develop software, especially when you have to develop the same software on Mac, Windows, Android/Kindle, iPhone/iPad, Web (and now Windows 8 RT!) simultaneously. While offering free support.

So I'll take the criticism that we're always trying to sell you more books -- it's true, and it's the only way we get paid. Though, at every upgrade cycle, it does condemn us to a lot of impassioned forum conversations about the injustice of upgrade bundles. :-)

I do welcome your input on a solution. Maybe the "free software" concept was a bad idea? Few other products I have have been offering free engine updates -- in any form -- since 1995. I've bought Word, Excel, Windows, Mac OS, etc. many times in those 17 years. Should Logos just move to paid upgrades, and stop making so many books? (It might be hard to make that change after all these years, but it's an interesting question.)

I appreciate your investing in our product, and I hope that you'll continue to believe it has been a good investment. And I want you to know that we're working hard to serve you better AND ensure that we're here for decades to come to support the investment you have made. Input on how to do that is always welcome.

(My favorite idea... just convince every Christian in America to pay $3 per month... then we could offer everybody all the content, support, and continued maintenance for a very low price! The only trick is getting everyone signed up at once...) :-)

-- Bob

Keep Smiling Smile

Fred Chapman

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/415929#Comment_415929

I considered that, but I don't feel good about sending any more money to Logos at all. Part of this has to do with not being happy with Logos, and part of it is that I've been convicted lately about buying up so many books beyond what I could ever possibly use at great cost when there are still so many people in this world with no church and without even a shred of Scripture in their own language.

Instead of justifying the expense of a needless upgrade as being to somehow "promote" God's Kingdom as I have in the past, I'm going to use the funds God has entrusted to me to support the work of Bible translation for the Bible-less and discipling the unreached. This isn't a judgment on the rest of Logos customers, it's just how I am being convicted about my own misuse of finances.

I would advise anyone to listen to the Lord's guidance. If He is telling you to do something different, or go a different path, trust and follow.

I wrote "pre-pubs" above when I actually meant PBBs (Personal Book Builder). The PBB feature was a big deal to me, as I had a LOT of pre-pub resources in Logos 3. When the upgrade to Logos 4 happened, Logos promised that the PBB feature would be "coming soon". In reality it took almost two years for them to release the PBB capability. If they had been up front with us at Logos 4 release time and told us that PBB ranked among their absolute lowest priorities (which is not surprising since there's no money to be made in PBBs) I would not have purchased Logos 4 in the first place.

PBB in L4 took a lot longer than many of us expected. I would have liked to have gotten it much sooner. I will say that I have been very happy with the new tool and find it much easier to use than the L3 version.

The fact that they are now using the same names in Logos 5 for completely different packages (Logos 4 platinum != Logos 5 platinum) is bothersome to me. I bought the resources in my library. These resources are expensive because they fund the software development. The software is just there to allow me to search and read these resources. To change the resource package the same label refers to just because of a software update is not cool.

I think Logos realizes that using the same package names may not have been the best way to market them. There were many reasons for changing the content, not the least of which was they were given no choice by the publishers who own the content.

The Logos 5 "platinum" package does not contain upgraded versions of old resources, only upgraded software. The old "platinum" label of my Logos 4 package is now deprecated not because the resources are obsolete or old, but because "platinum" now refers to a different, way more expensive (but not necessarily equally valuable) package. I can totally understand why they would do this from a business standpoint, as it pressures customers to cough up large amounts of money in order to maintain the same "label" applied to their Logos 4 library. I just don't appreciate it personally.

I'm not sure I understand how the new L5 Platinum package depreciates the value of my L4 Platinum package. I still have all of that content and the fact that someone who buys L5 at the same level today does nothing to change what I have. The fact that the package changes does not affect my existing licenses or content at all. It really does not matter to me what Logos or anyone else "labels" my library.

The third bothersome thing is that there is no way to upgrade to the Logos 5 software at the moment for us "old" customers. I guess the new message is that you have to pay up if you want to keep playing. I just don't see how the huge price tags are justified. Logos 3 to Logos 4 upgrades included more resources, and more highly sought after resources for the same kind of money.

Logos made it clear yesterday that a free engine download would be made available as well as a minimal crossgrade. You can read that here http://community.logos.com/forums/t/58259.aspx

I can imagine the marketing meetings that happened at Logos:

I would not presume to speculate on the discussions during meetings in Bellingham.

As I said in the beginning of this post, follow the Lord's guidance and direction. As Dr. Charles Stanley says often "Obey God and leave all the consequences to Him".

Bootjack

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/415963#Comment_415963

Does the Logos 5 V8 engine give us the new interface / Logos homepage?

TCBlack

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/415967#Comment_415967

Does the Logos 5 V8 engine give us the new interface / Logos homepage?

Yes

JT (alabama24)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/415929#Comment_415929

The third bothersome thing is that there is no way to upgrade to the Logos 5 software at the moment for us "old" customers.

BS – Please read Bob's Post: http://community.logos.com/forums/t/58259.aspx

The fact that they are now using the same names in Logos 5 for completely different packages (Logos 4 platinum != Logos 5 platinum) is bothersome to me. I bought the resources in my library. These resources are expensive because they fund the software development. The software is just there to allow me to search and read these resources. To change the resource package the same label refers to just because of a software update is not cool. The Logos 5 "platinum" package does not contain upgraded versions of old resources, only upgraded software. The old "platinum" label of my Logos 4 package is now deprecated not because the resources are obsolete or old, but because "platinum" now refers to a different, way more expensive (but not necessarily equally valuable) package. I can totally understand why they would do this from a business standpoint, as it pressures customers to cough up large amounts of money in order to maintain the same "label" applied to their Logos 4 library. I just don't appreciate it personally.

I understand why some users are confused about this, and I think Logos could have done a better job with the base package role out. Personally, I think it would have been better to announce the change a couple of weeks before the actual change.

I think that you are overly harsh, however, about Logos use of the same names for the packages. The use of jewels and precious metals to describe software isn't new or unique to Logos. If you were to visit a website for a completely different software company, it would be fairly easy to tell which software package was considered more desirable by the usage of the terms Logos has chosen. EVERYONE knows that Gold is more valuable than Bronze. "Portfolio" is generally the biggest package. Higher packages include the contents of lower ones. Do you have another suggestion for names?

I know that there are many users who are concerned about "upgrading" from an L4 "Platinum" to and L5 "Gold." That speaks more towards the materialistic tendency of our western / American culture than to some ill intent on the part of Logos.

The software doesn't just let you "search and read" resources. The Logos system allows you to DISCOVER material while doing research. One of the advantages of a large library is that you can serendipitously discover something. There is a reason I use to drive 2 hours to go to the "big city" library when I was working on a research paper. My hometown "maybury" library just didn't cut it.

Mark

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/415983#Comment_415983

it is true that Logos does not seem to do well in the marketing department. Many lessons from the change over from L3 to L4 may not have been learned. The change from L4 to L5 so far seems to be tame compared to the the change from L3 to L4. There will be frustration as a result of what many may consider to be poor marketing strategy. But I would encourage you to wait, even a few weeks, before making a decision. You may find yourself glad to have waited.

Kevin A. Purcell

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/416006#Comment_416006

Why are poeple so emotionally tied to the name of a package. I know its confusing but once I got it, I didn't care that my platinum was now called silver since it still contained the same books I had in the old platinum. The name doesn't matter.

Call it Logos Beetle versus Logos Worm.

I think the problem is pride. People like their status symbol of a "higher" package name because it makes them feel like they are superior. If this does not refer to you, then don't get upset because I'm not talking to you. But for some I suspect this might be the issue. I'm not referring to any one person specifically as I won't ascribe motives to a single person. that would be wrong. I'm referring to very general idea.

Here's how people should think about the package options. Forget what package you owned under Logos 4. Now that L5 is out think of each package as an upgrade option. If you want the lowest possible upgrade option get the lowest possible package. If you want the most get Portfolio.

Patrick S.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/415983#Comment_415983

The third bothersome thing is that there is no way to upgrade to the Logos 5 software at the moment for us "old" customers.

BS – Please read Bob's Post: http://community.logos.com/forums/t/58259.aspx

The fact that they are now using the same names in Logos 5 for completely different packages (Logos 4 platinum != Logos 5 platinum) is bothersome to me. I bought the resources in my library. These resources are expensive because they fund the software development. The software is just there to allow me to search and read these resources. To change the resource package the same label refers to just because of a software update is not cool. The Logos 5 "platinum" package does not contain upgraded versions of old resources, only upgraded software. The old "platinum" label of my Logos 4 package is now deprecated not because the resources are obsolete or old, but because "platinum" now refers to a different, way more expensive (but not necessarily equally valuable) package. I can totally understand why they would do this from a business standpoint, as it pressures customers to cough up large amounts of money in order to maintain the same "label" applied to their Logos 4 library. I just don't appreciate it personally.

I understand why some users are confused about this, and I think Logos could have done a better job with the base package role out. Personally, I think it would have been better to announce the change a couple of weeks before the actual change.

I think that you are overly harsh, however, about Logos use of the same names for the packages. The use of jewels and precious metals to describe software isn't new or unique to Logos. If you were to visit a website for a completely different software company, it would be fairly easy to tell which software package was considered more desirable by the usage of the terms Logos has chosen. EVERYONE knows that Gold is more valuable than Bronze. "Portfolio" is generally the biggest package. Higher packages include the contents of lower ones. Do you have another suggestion for names?

I know that there are many users who are concerned about "upgrading" from an L4 "Platinum" to and L5 "Gold." That speaks more towards the materialistic tendency of our western / American culture than to some ill intent on the part of Logos.

The software doesn't just let you "search and read" resources. The Logos system allows you to DISCOVER material while doing research. One of the advantages of a large library is that you can serendipitously discover something. There is a reason I use to drive 2 hours to go to the "big city" library when I was working on a research paper. My hometown "maybury" library just didn't cut it.

Good reply. I agree that the original comment was a bit harsh, in one sense, to quote Shakespeare, "what's in a name"? I started with Scholar's Silver, but my library has changed a lot, and individually, from the original. I'm more interested in the content being precious gold then the name being gold, or platinum or whatever. The package names are simply there primarily for new purchasers for them to get a handle on what is in each package up to the top option.

However a lot of this feedback from existing customers could have been head off by, as you said, "announce[ing] the change a couple of weeks before the actual change". Even one week before would have been fine. An email to existing customers announcing that Logos 5 was coming out with very clear information about what are the fundamental changes/improvements in the new version and a detailed explanation of what impact/what would be necessary for existing Logos 4 customers to move across to Logos 5.

Problem is, people are initially finding out about the new version from the website and/or the forums, and the vacuum of (hard & detailed) information for existing customers ends up being filled with a lot of angsty posts by people worried about their L4 investment.

It could have been avoided.

tom

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/416013#Comment_416013

I think the problem is pride. People like their status symbol of a "higher" package name because it makes them feel like they are superior.

[Y]

Edwin Bowden

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/415983#Comment_415983

I know that there are many users who are concerned about "upgrading" from an L4 "Platinum" to and L5 "Gold." That speaks more towards the materialistic tendency of our western / American culture than to some ill intent on the part of Logos.

Excellent observation. [Y]

I think most of the negative responses that I have seen on the forums over L5 have been tied to this problem. L4 base package users feel like their "status" has been deprecated. I would hope that Christians (especially Christian leaders) would be more mature than to be hung up on status symbols.

I agree that Logos did not act wisely from a marketing/communications standpoint. That seems to be an ongoing problem with Logos. They tend to be more computer geeks than communications specialists.

On the other hand, I have always found Logos to be a company of integrity.

They (like us all) make mistakes. But, they are among the fastest to admit when they have made mistakes and do everything they can to correct their mistakes.

I have absolutely no reason to question their motives. Many users have posted horrible accusations and unfounded speculations about their motives.

We should learn to be mature adults. Children demand everything be the way they want it.;

We should learn to be patient. Not everything happens when we want it. I vividly remember one particular user from 3 years ago who was very angry and accusatory. He was never going to use Logos again. But, I see that Logos answered his questions satisfactorily and he is still a Logos user.

We should learn to be fair in our criticism. We don't know the whole story.

We should learn to ask questions and wait for answers when we don't understand something.

A large Logos staff has spent over 3 years working on this improved program. I know the economic investment costs must be huge. And the most frequent posts have been asking why they can't get it for free.

For a moment, imagine the pressure that the Logos staff has had in preparing to launch L5. The vast majority of reports from people that have actually used it are excellent. Faster, cleaner, much improved.

I am carefully evaluating the package offerings to see what is best for me. I do not yet know if I will upgrade to a larger package or wait for the crossgrade. I am not a student or a pastor, so many of the additional titles are of no interest to me.

I will patiently take my time to see what the best course is for me to upgrade to the improvements that I see in L5. I can already tell that the upgrade will be much smoother than from L3 to L4.

Gord Berta

I though it was just me, as you said 4 was laced with broken promises, and I still harbor ill feeling for helping beta test for over a year, and not as much as a personal 'thank you' let alone a copy of the engine we worked on for over a year.

Logos is all for Logos, money first, money first, then more money. I will support WordSearch from this day forward.

DMB

BS ... what a great read. And life is so coincidental. Back when I first heard of L5 months ago, my initial gut reaction was 'Oh goodness, not again.'

I think people have to be unbelievably naive. Logos didn't likely have 'that' conversation. But they ARE quite intelligent. When they create fake retail prices, it IS for a purpose. When they don't document knowing the customers have spent thousands, it's not by accident. They knew very well the release would upset the customers. Who's kidding who. They bat 100% and it's not by intent?

Yesterday, I couldn't believe it. Surely the guy wouldn't pull the same-old AGAIN?! Yep. Shore nuff. Set your watch for the usual mea culpa. Check.

Tommy Miller

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/416013#Comment_416013

Pride or no pride, emotional or not, here is a legitimate question (hypothetically speaking, of course).

I upgraded from Gold to Portfolio when L4 came out. I have since spent thousands of dollars on additional resources. Now I can't afford a Portfolio to Portfolio upgrade, so I jump to a L5 Starter Pack. I still have all of my resources, only my status (and pride) have been hurt [:$]. But look ahead with me in time one or two years . . .

Logos 6 has been released (just when I had grown comfortable using all of L5's earth-shattering new features [which really do look cool [H]]). L6 can do amazing things--not only does it start our sermons, but now it can finish them, too. I really want to upgrade, but the price to go from a starter pack to say, Gold, is out of this world! Its not the number of resources I would have (I may have over 10,000 by then), but will I have to pay a greater premium to jump from L5 Starter to L6 Gold than I would have from L5 Gold to L6 Gold? Will they take into account that I had spent over $25,000 with their company (a retail value of $78,000,000)? Will my personal upgrade be more then because of my choice now? Where will it all end?

I know its only a status symbol (maybe bearing the eternal title of "Starter Pack Mack" isn't so bad). But, as I understand it, my personal upgrade price right now, is based on the fact that I own a certain "package" and now I want to go to another like-named "package." The number then factors through some mystical algorithm which may or may not truly account for the thousands I have thus far invested in good books (and a good product). So I jump to lower package in name now, without suffering any real loss in my library. But how will this factor into my personal upgrade offer when I go from L5 to L6?

Bootjack

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/415976#Comment_415976

TCBlack, thank you for that detailed response. Much appreciated!!! :-)

Gary Butner, Th.D.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/416068#Comment_416068

I though it was just me, as you said 4 was laced with broken promises, and I still harbor ill feeling for helping beta test for over a year, and not as much as a personal 'thank you' let alone a copy of the engine we worked on for over a year.

Logos is all for Logos, money first, money first, then more money. I will support WordSearch from this day forward.

Apparently you didn't appreciate the free Presarus Collection, with 1100 or 2200 books Logos offered everyone?

Friedrich

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/416024#Comment_416024

Problem is, people are initially finding out about the new version from the website and/or the forums, and the vacuum of (hard & detailed) information for existing customers ends up being filled with a lot of angsty posts by people worried about their L4 investment.

perceptive. very.

It could have been avoided.

siiigh. i'm not sure on that one. but perhaps it could have been smoother. people get worried and in their worry, they often resort to behavior that on their better days, they know is not correct--like assigning motives and judging when they clearly know Jesus' words in Matthew 7. I know I have. Judging sucks. Forgive us Lord. And help us all be patient with one another--and to know your will and live out your love through us.

spitzerpl

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/416143#Comment_416143

but will I have to pay a greater premium to jump from L5 Starter to L6 Gold than I would have from L5 Gold to L6 Gold?

No. You would be upgrading from l4 gold + l5 starter + other purchased resources to l6 gold. In my view while this transition in business model may be a painful one it is more fair because it begins. To take the resources I have purchased into account rather then the packages I have bought.

George Somsel

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/416143#Comment_416143

Pride or no pride, emotional or not, here is a legitimate question (hypothetically speaking, of course).

I upgraded from Gold to Portfolio when L4 came out. I have since spent thousands of dollars on additional resources. Now I can't afford a Portfolio to Portfolio upgrade, so I jump to a L5 Starter Pack. I still have all of my resources, only my status (and pride) have been hurt . But look ahead with me in time one or two years . . .

You might have been better off waiting for the free engine and purchasing the crossgrade since that would give you all of the data base addins while the Starter Pack only gives you 1 (If I remember correctly).

George Somsel

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/416068#Comment_416068

I though it was just me, as you said 4 was laced with broken promises, and I still harbor ill feeling for helping beta test for over a year, and not as much as a personal 'thank you' let alone a copy of the engine we worked on for over a year.

Logos is all for Logos, money first, money first, then more money. I will support WordSearch from this day forward.

Yes, well, I was in the beta test too, but I don't feel put out that I wasn't given a pat on the head and a gold watch for my (rather meager) efforts. In the end it was to improve a product that will benefit me. So, Gordo, you want to support WordSearch hereafter? Good luck with that.

George Somsel

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/415929#Comment_415929

The fact that they are now using the same names in Logos 5 for completely different packages (Logos 4 platinum != Logos 5 platinum) is bothersome to me. I bought the resources in my library. These resources are expensive because they fund the software development. The software is just there to allow me to search and read these resources. To change the resource package the same label refers to just because of a software update is not cool.

I was a bit confused at first by the use of the same names for the differing levels until I realized that they were completely different animals from the L4 packages. Perhaps they simply name them Level 1, Level 2, Level 3, etc. I really don't care what names they choose so long as everything is clear. Why get bent out of shape about the name?

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/416068#Comment_416068

I though it was just me, as you said 4 was laced with broken promises, and I still harbor ill feeling for helping beta test for over a year, and not as much as a personal 'thank you' let alone a copy of the engine we worked on for over a year.

Appreciate anguish; do remember a tantalizing screen shot of initial Libronix port to Mac OS X appearing many months before initial Logos release for Mac OS X, which was usable for Bible Study, yet lacked many Libronix 3.0g features. Also remember Logos receiving much grief from many Mac customers about missing a promised delivery date by many months. Now Logos does not publicize future release plans until ready to ship, which happened with Logos 5.

In 2009, Logos embarked on a public Logos 4 Mac alpha program. Beta's can be a bit buggy while Alpha's can crash a lot. My initial Logos 4 Mac installation consistently crashed so was completely unusable. Thankful for Logos development improvement that fixed crash issue in a subsequent alpha release. During Logos 4 Mac alpha that lasted almost a year, remember a sense of gifts arriving every week or two to find out what Logos 4 features had become usable on Mac OS X. One benefit from the public alpha program was learning many Logos 4 features and capabilities. Logos has a learning curve for effective usage; wiki has => http://wiki.logos.com/Getting_Started_with_Logos that has many Tips and links.

Thankful for substantial feature parity improvement in Logos 4 Mac. In version 4.2a; Logos development combined Mac and PC releases. The wiki has a feature parity list, which was noticeably reduced with Logos 4.6a stable release => http://wiki.logos.com/Mac_and_PC_User_Interface_Differences#Feature_Parity

During Logos 4 Mac alpha development, Logos "promised" feature parity between Mac and PC. Currently, Logos 5.0 has the best feature parity thus far; not aware of any new feature discrepancies between Mac and PC. Looking to Logos 5 improvements on Mac and PC along with mobile app improvements, which have already included syncing of highlighting and notes across many platforms.

My favorite Logos feature is visual filter highlighting so can "see" morphological codes in Greek and English using resources in parallel:

English is not Greek; intensity and range of verbal expression in Greek often lack during translation into English. Highlighting verbs quickly shows range of expression used by the original author. With verbs highlighted, can look at surrounding words in their context. Forum thread has a bit more about verbal intensity => http://community.logos.com/forums/t/56318.aspx

Logos 5 adds Root and Senses to Bible Word Study, an awesome addition. The screen shot is from a 27" iMac using Full Screen mode in OS X 10.8.2

Keep Smiling [:)]

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/416187#Comment_416187

Very nice screenshot, KS4J. Being the king of Logos visual markups, the future will be pretty unbelievable with your talents and expansion of the databases!

Robert J Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/415929#Comment_415929

BS,

Great post! You hit the nail right on the head.

Shawn Drewett

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/415929#Comment_415929

If they had been up front with us at Logos 4 release time and told us that PBB ranked among their absolute lowest priorities (which is not surprising since there's no money to be made in PBBs) I would not have purchased Logos 4 in the first place.

BS, I could not agree more as to the above statement. I was "crushed" when after I upgraded to L4 I realized that I had lost all of my L3 PBB's.

As to your pretended dialogue to make a point, I think it's insightful and spot on.

Also, I appreciate your spending priorities and hope that it's contagious.

Robert J Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/416013#Comment_416013

What I am upset about is the attempt by Logos to force me to purchase resources I already passed on when they were in Pre-Pub in order to get full functionality. However while I wait for the minimum crossgrade to appear sometime in the future, at least I don't have to work around the bugs and missing features of the early L5 incarnation.

Robert J Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/416081#Comment_416081

DMB [:D][Y]

Russ White

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/416162#Comment_416162

No. You would be upgrading from l4 gold + l5 starter + other purchased resources to l6 gold. In my view while this transition in business model may be a painful one it is more fair because it begins.

I'm not certain I buy this... My understanding is that when you go to a gold package, you get a higher discount per resource than when you go to silver. I've been told this by folks at Logos directly several times, so I tend to believe it's true.

So, think about this (just using round, not real, numbers):

1. You start with Gold L4 with 1000 resources.

2. You move to Starter L5, and get, maybe, 50 resources more.

3. You now move from Starter L5 to Gold L6 --but since you didn't buy the differential between Gold L4 and Gold L5, you're now buying those as well as the new stuff that's in Gold L6. Further, since these are "makeup" resources, you're not getting the same discount level on them as you would have if you had crossgraded from L4 Gold to Gold L5.

I don't see any way to work this where moving from Gold to Starter now, and then from Starter to Gold later, isn't more expensive than Gold L4->Gold L5->Gold L6, even if you wind up with precisely the same resources.

In other words, there's more to the package than just the name and pride, no matter how many times it's been repeated here. There are discount levels involved, too. I also think there's more to the upgrade price than just the resources --I've heard enough people talk about this that I think there's a package-to-package price built in, too. For instance, take a look at my situation. Here is my total buy since 2000 with Logos:

My upgrade price to Gold L5 was $500. You can tell me all you want that it's all about resources, but I will still believe that part of that $500 was moving from original languages, which is what I bought when I jumped to L4, to Gold in L5 --just to get the package name differential. A seemingly basic question:

If there were no package to package difference, then why does Logos even keep track of which package I buy? Why am I even classified as a "Gold user," when I call into sales? Why does anyone actually care what package you already have when the big upgrade push comes around?

The only reason I can think of is that there's a package-to-package price --that it's not just about resources.

David Thomas

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/416256#Comment_416256

My upgrade price to Gold L5 was $500.

How many of the Gold L5 resources are "new to you"? Even though you have purchased many titles in the past (regardless of if they were part of packages or not), my understanding of the new dynamic pricing is that the key question is "how many of the titles in the desired package do you already own?"

Russ White

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/416269#Comment_416269

How many of the Gold L5 resources are "new to you"?

Not as many as I might have expected.. A lot of them were apparently "new versions" of stuff I already had, so they show up as "new to you."

Daniel Brouwer

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/416256#Comment_416256

I just bought L4 "Scholar's Library" last summer, and have added many hundreds of dollars of content since I purchased the base package. Years ago I had the old Libronix with a lot of added content, and it all transfered into L4 automatically. I have been very pleased with all the software and with everything about how the company deals with me.

I read all the negative reactions to the release of L5 and was initially concerned and disappointed by what I read. Then I looked at the content I would get by upgrading to L5 bronze (for $315). There was a lot of stuff I don't think I want or need, but the stuff I would like to have that was included in the upgrade was pennies on the dollar compared to what it would cost to add it to my L4 library piece by piece. And some of the stuff that didn't look worthwhile to me is stuff I would have wanted if I had known what it was. I'm amazed that my ability to drill down into the Hebrew is so much more enhanced over what I could do in L4. Not only that, but L5 runs faster on my machine with a lot more information available in the different guides. Bottom line, I think I got a huge bargain in my upgrade. I really don't care if my "official" base package is named Tin instead of Bronze. I have everything I had before, but it works better and I have a lot of new stuff I would have wanted anyway -- not to mention some things I would have wanted if I had only been able to see in action. Now I see them in action in my own machine and they are already mine.

I know a lot of the marketing and sales things are confusing, but hey, my bottom line is comparing what I get to what I pay. Based on that, I think Logos has treated me pretty well.

I also know producing anything costs money, and you get what you pay for. Are some of us perhaps expecting something for nothing?

I just can't see Logos as the heartless capitalist marauder described here by so many of its customers.

Claude Brown Jr

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/415929#Comment_415929

I can imagine the marketing meetings that happened at Logos:

"We need more money. How do we increase revenue?"

"Let's release a software update"

"But our customers understand that they're buying the library, not the software. They're not going to pay the kind of money we need for new software"

"So let's create new resource packages"

"But our customers are already pretty happy with their libraries at this point, plus they're pretty happy with the features of Logos 4. They're not going to purchase new resource packages, they'll just do the free upgrade to the new Logos 5 engine."

"We will make them wait to receive the free Logos 5 engine. They will be stuck using Logos 4 until everyone who has upgraded to a new package will."

"Okay, but you still didn't explain why a substantial portion of our existing customers will want to upgrade when they are already happy with their libraries at this point."

"Let's downgrade their Logos 4 package labels in the new Logos 5. A customer who had Logos 4 Gold will now have to pay a huge amount of money to maintain 'Gold', or else pay a little bit and end up with Logos 5 'starter'. This way customers will feel that their current library now has less value and will feel pressured to upgrade."

"Our customers will never go for that! How are we going to retain our customer base if we pull tricks like this? We can't just downgrade their libraries, how stupid do you think they are?"

Were you really in the room?

Jacob Hantla

Sounds much more like you need a minimal crossgrade. The $20 would cover the transfer of your entire library.

Claude Brown Jr

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/415958#Comment_415958

I do welcome your input on a solution. Maybe the "free software" concept was a bad idea? Few other products I have have been offering free engine updates -- in any form -- since 1995. I've bought Word, Excel, Windows, Mac OS, etc. many times in those 17 years. Should Logos just move to paid upgrades, and stop making so many books? (It might be hard to make that change after all these years, but it's an interesting question.)

-- Bob

Keep Smiling

Just wondering why the comparison to non-biblical software resources instead of oh say e-sward which has always been free?

Claude Brown Jr

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/415983#Comment_415983

The third bothersome thing is that there is no way to upgrade to the Logos 5 software at the moment for us "old" customers.

The software doesn't just let you "search and read" resources. The Logos system allows you to DISCOVER material while doing research. One of the advantages of a large library is that you can serendipitously discover something. There is a reason I use to drive 2 hours to go to the "big city" library when I was working on a research paper. My hometown "maybury" library just didn't cut it.

I do not think that was fair since the way you 'DISCOVER' is still search and read, without the two hour ride of course.

Claude Brown Jr

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/416068#Comment_416068

I though it was just me, as you said 4 was laced with broken promises, and I still harbor ill feeling for helping beta test for over a year, and not as much as a personal 'thank you' let alone a copy of the engine we worked on for over a year.

Logos is all for Logos, money first, money first, then more money. I will support WordSearch from this day forward.

Wow we are really emotional over software?

George Somsel

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/416350#Comment_416350

Wow we are really emotional over software?

Just a bit (or is it a byte?). [:D]

Claude Brown Jr

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/416174#Comment_416174

You might have been better off waiting for the free engine and purchasing the crossgrade since that would give you all of the data base addins while the Starter Pack only gives you 1 (If I remember correctly).

Okay now I am confused. When I go to the "personalized' upgrade page on the website it indicates that I will not get all the database addins without purchasing at least the 'Gold"? For me that will be an additional 800.00 because unless I am mistaken you can not use the engine without the database addins which are called "datasets" at the end of the comparison charts called feature distribution? There reportedly 53 of them. To get them all would require the purchase of at least Platinum Upgrade for an additional $1200.00. Am I missing something?

John Bass

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/416013#Comment_416013

I think you are right on target. I have been reading a lot of the posts complaining that somehow they are getting cheated by a requirement to spend a huge sum of money to buy a package they already own. For those who think this is the case, after lots of reading and my own personal choice to purchase a package BEFORE the minimal engine is available...

YOU DON'T LOSE A THING! Every book I had in Logos 4 is still there in Logos 5. Who cares what they call it.

The money I spent was mostly investing in books for my library that I didn't already have. The personal calculator makes it VERY clear. You can see all the books or JUST WHAT IS NEW TO YOUR COLLECTION. It adds books to your collection. It does not take any away.

If you don't want any new books, then buy the bottom upgrade or wait for the minimal engine to be released. Really...If you are pretty happy with Logos 4 then you really haven't lost anything if you don't upgrade to Logos 5.

I am really so tired of hearing some people bashing Logos. I have limited funds and I can't expense out my purchases. What I buy comes out of my discretionary income. I have used several other packages and ebooks. None of them hold a candle to what Logos does. In my experience, Logos has always been up front and honest with us. Sure, they make mistakes...don't you? But they own up to them and they seem to always keep the customer in mind. More than I can same about some other providers I have worked with.

Ultimately, if you don't like Logos than you have to make some tough choices. But don't blame logos for them. If you're upset because they didn't release an app when PROJECTED then you probably haven't done software development. Neither have I, but I have lots of friends who work for companies that do and I understand there are huge variables out there that control a release. Ultimately, I would rather wait for a good release than get an early release that is really buggy.

IMHO Logos is one of the best companies I have dealt with -- and no, I don't work for them and neither do any of my friends or family. I just think they are honorable and are workmen worthy of their earnings. [Y]

fgh

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/416382#Comment_416382

When I go to the "personalized' upgrade page on the website it indicates that I will not get all the database addins without purchasing at least the 'Gold"? For me that will be an additional 800.00 because unless I am mistaken you can not use the engine without the database addins which are called "datasets" at the end of the comparison charts called feature distribution? There reportedly 53 of them. To get them all would require the purchase of at least Platinum Upgrade for an additional $1200.00. Am I missing something?

Official: Minimum Crossgrade and free engine download are coming!

George Somsel

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/416382#Comment_416382

Okay now I am confused. When I go to the "personalized' upgrade page on the website it indicates that I will not get all the database addins without purchasing at least the 'Gold"? For me that will be an additional 800.00 because unless I am mistaken you can not use the engine without the database addins which are called "datasets" at the end of the comparison charts called feature distribution? There reportedly 53 of them. To get them all would require the purchase of at least Platinum Upgrade for an additional $1200.00. Am I missing something?

Unless I'm confused myself, you will get all of the datasets if you purchase the minimal crossgrade.

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/416382#Comment_416382

To get them all would require the purchase of at least Platinum Upgrade for an additional $1200.00. Am I missing something?

Once Swete's LXX resource with Reverse Interlinear tagging is released, then Logos 5 "Gold" package has all the resources with data content to use all the Logos 5 features; see thread => http://community.logos.com/forums/p/58242/414599.aspx#414599 Once Swete's LXX is released, Bronze and higher could use Bible Word Study Septuagint feature. Note: if already have Rahlfs LXX in your Logos Library, then the Bible Word Study feature for Septuagint translation would be usable regardless of upgrade choice.

Keep Smiling [:)]

Bootjack

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/416414#Comment_416414

Well, personally, I think you Georgie Somsel should have at least got a pat on the back if not one on the top of the head for all your contributions to Logos. (Well, you did say meager I think) Some would have been so overwhelmed in not getting recognition, some of the some might have hurled themselves out in front of a parked bus!!!?

As for me & my house, I'll say a big thank you for the time you did spend in helping out with this project!!!

777

I've been a Logos customer for over eight years. I've decided that I won't be upgrading to Logos 5. The broken promises surrounding the Logos 4 release (especially the pre-publication feature advertised as "coming soon" and it turning out to be over a year), and the Logos 5 marketing strategy have left a bad taste in my mouth.

In order to maintain the "platinum" package label I'd have to drop over $600, and not get anything I really want or need. Sure, I would get a few books, but very little I'd even consider purchasing separately.

Does anyone know if the $20 fee to transfer your license to someone else is a one time blanket fee for the entire transaction, or is it per package, or per resource or what? I have Logos 4 Platinum, Word Biblical Commentary, and the HALOT/BDAG bundle. Would that be three times $20 to sell everything? Or just $20 if it all went to one buyer?

I was a Logos user since they shipped product on floppy disks and I too felt like L4 was a complete mess and everyone at Logos was in denial. I found myself questioning the business model, as it appeared to be based on greed rather than making good on their word. There are things that were promised that we would have in L4 that were never delivered and the choice that Logos made to program their software about as inefficiently as possible to require massive computing power to use just made me sick to my stomach.

I recently gave my Logos 4 away. Logos did not charge me a dime to transfer all of my resources to another party. The bad taste in my mouth is gone and I could care less how good or bad Logos 5 is. I feel like I had a giant boil on my netherparts lanced and drained, and now I'm getting all healed up.

Peter, John, Paul, Luke, Matthew, Mark.... none of these folks had Logos and they did just fine.

After my very long Logos experience, I will never be able to recommend Logos software to anyone. The company doesn't keep their word, and that reflects the character of the entire company, no matter how "nice" they seem.

To answer your question, in my case they were going to charge $20 to transfer all of my resources, and I had purchased many, many add-on titles over the years. I feel so much better having rid myself of something that was a bother to me for so long that mere words can't express how happy I am to be rid of it all. The person that received the resources is happy as they got the whole enchilada for free, so if Logos crashes and burns, they are not out a dime. I was never going to be in that place, having paid for the privilege of getting hosed.

And they lived happily ever after. The end.

JC54

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/415929#Comment_415929

BS,

I am sorry that you want to leave Logos, but I would be interested in buying your package if you do.

Greetings

Joren Menkveld

Bootjack

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/416699#Comment_416699

So what are you using now for a Bible program since you hurled Logos out through the window (or was that the door)?