In the cross-reference section of the Passage Guide, are all Bibles with cross-reference information fields searched to fill the section?
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MJ. I don't claim to be clever but, I do love a challenge, so, I'll start this ball rolling. The cross reference section is keyed to your top prioritized bible. Therefore, not all bibles are searched just your favorite bible is searched. Now whether or not all bibles will render equivalent information I am not sure, I'll have to test this proposition.
Edit: you know, a better way of answering this question is to note that the books being searched is the Treasury Scripture Knowledge and the New Treasury Scripture Knowledge so all cross references are keyed to them and thus it doesn't matter what bible is your favorite bible. Right?
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The top portion of the cross-references include Treasury, New Treasury and personal cross-references.
The bottom portion comes from (primarily)Bibles which must have the cross-references trait set (as per Mark Barnes). I can only find which Bibles have that trait indirectly. But I can't easily tell if all such Bibles are searched or if only a subset are used.
MJ. Smith: I can't easily tell if all such Bibles are searched or if only a subset are used.
Here is a statement about bible cross-references I can't tell which bibles are searched, or whether the search is restricted to those having the "cross-reference" field. A few example passages show that some cross-refs come from the TSK/NTSK, and that not every cross-ref in my preferred bible (ESV) or my Top Bibles is used.
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MJ. Smith:In the cross-reference section of the Passage Guide, are all Bibles with cross-reference information fields searched to fill the section?
When I really started using Logos with L4, one of the first things I asked about was cross references. It still seems to me that Logos could provide a feature that gave us the mathematical union of cross references from a set (collection ?) of resources having cross reference data. As it is, I'm left picking and poking from TSK and my top couple of Bibles (manually), and Carson/Beale (Commentary on NT use of OT) - hoping I don't miss anything useful.
Donnie
MJ. Smith: The bottom portion comes from (primarily)Bibles which must have the cross-references trait set (as per Mark Barnes). I can only find which Bibles have that trait indirectly. But I can't easily tell if all such Bibles are searched or if only a subset are used.
All Bibles that have the cross-references trait are searched for this section.
I don't know whether all Bibles with cross references have this trait; it's possible that some have been inadvertently omitted.
Bradley Grainger (Logos):I don't know whether all Bibles with cross references have this trait; it's possible that some have been inadvertently omitted.
I don't have the time to reread them now, but didn't we conclude in two threads I linked to in the thread Dave linked to above that there are many Bibles missing that trait. I think Mark posted a list somewhere of Bibles especially important to add it to.
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fgh:I don't have the time to reread them now, but didn't we conclude in two threads I linked to in the thread Dave linked to above that there are many Bibles missing that trait. I think Mark posted a list somewhere of Bibles especially important to add it to.
We did indeed, and apparently there is a case open: http://community.logos.com/forums/t/70726.aspx
So, to answer MJ's question:
All Bibles with the 'contains-cross-reference-footnotes' trait are included in this section. That's only 9 Bibles, namely:
The Bibles missing this trait are listed below, together with the number of cross-references they contain. Whilst not all need to be added, it would be a benefit adding at least the first eight. It would make the biggest difference to Verbum users, and others who want to see cross-references to the Apocrypha, which are very thin on the ground currently:
* I believe the first list is complete, as it comes from Logos' own metadata. The second list is restricted to resources that I own. There may be other Bibles I don't own that also have cross references, or Bibles that have cross references but don't utilise the cross-reference field [such as the TNIV]). If you want to try it for yourself, do a "By Count" search in a Bibles collection, searching the Cross Reference field for <Gen-Rev>. Go and make a coffee whilst you await results ;-).
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Donnie Hale: It still seems to me that Logos could provide a feature that gave us the mathematical union of cross references from a set (collection ?) of resources having cross reference data.
That's exactly what's happening in the passage guide. The problem is that for some reason not all appropriate resources are included.
Mark Barnes:That's exactly what's happening in the passage guide. The problem is that for some reason not all appropriate resources are included.
Clarifying...
First, you're saying that the Cross Reference section of the Passage Guide is supposed to provide the functionality I described?
Second, are you saying that some resources that are properly marked are still being excluded from that section? Or are you saying that the section is including all properly marked resources but that for unknown reasons there are a bunch of resources that could be so-marked but are not?
Thanks,
Donnie Hale:Second, are you saying that some resources that are properly marked are still being excluded from that section? Or are you saying that the section is including all properly marked resources but that for unknown reasons there are a bunch of resources that could be so-marked but are not?
In order for a Bible to be searched for cross-references, two things have to be true:
So all the resources listed by Mark have cross-references available but only those in group 1 appear in the PG xref section.
In addition, there is no direct way to get the cross-references from group 2 into a passage list for review. The net result is that the deuterocanonicals are grossly under represented.
Donnie Hale:First, you're saying that the Cross Reference section of the Passage Guide is supposed to provide the functionality I described?
Correct.
The latter. Every resource in Logos has certain 'traits' which determine how it is used. This is how Logos knows, for example, which resources to search in the "Illustrations" section of the passage guide (the trait is called "sermon-illustrations"). These traits are not displayed in Logos, but can be seen in the catalog.db file. Unfortunately, several of the Bibles that could be marked with the "contains-cross-reference-footnotes" trait, aren't. No-one has yet explained why.
Adding counts - note that I don't own several of the Bibles used for cross-references.
The additions from my Library
Mark Barnes: Donnie Hale:Second, are you saying that some resources that are properly marked are still being excluded from that section? Or are you saying that the section is including all properly marked resources but that for unknown reasons there are a bunch of resources that could be so-marked but are not? The latter. Every resource in Logos has certain 'traits' which determine how it is used. This is how Logos knows, for example, which resources to search in the "Illustrations" section of the passage guide (the trait is called "sermon-illustrations"). These traits are not displayed in Logos, but can be seen in the catalog.db file. Unfortunately, several of the Bibles that could be marked with the "contains-cross-reference-footnotes" trait, aren't. No-one has yet explained why.
this is absolutely (to coin a term) mifftafying, now I see why MJ. posed the question and Mark's sage answers and citations underscore the desirability of amping up the utility of Passage Guide. I do hope that someone explains the why question posed in the prior appended remark.
An aside. Mark and MJ. where are you getting your cross reference counts from?
Beloved: An aside. Mark and MJ. where are you getting your cross reference counts from?
Mark gave the instructions above. Do a search on cross-reference, cross-references text across your entire library with the search term <Gen-Rev> and sort by count. Mark advised a coffee break. I assure you that tea also works.
Mark Barnes:All Bibles with the 'contains-cross-reference-footnotes' trait are included in this section. That's only 9 Bibles, namely:
The NAB revised has 15859 passage references in footnotes, not necessarily x-refs because some are denoted 'see passage' or are part of a textual comment. But it is sparsely represented for a PG on Gen 6:1-8 e.g. the references to Sirach are omitted. I wonder if you confused this with NASB95 which has the cross-reference field (NAB does not) and is better represented in this PG.
Five of my English bibles have the cross-reference field but I don't see all their x-refs in a PG, and four also have the cross-reference trait (from your table).
Dave Hooton:But it is sparsely represented for a PG on Gen 6:1-8 e.g. the references to Sirach are omitted.
If I look at Genesis 6:1-8 in NABRE, I find three cross reference indicators: (a) in verse 2, (b) in verse 4, and (c) in verse 5. None of them refer to Sirach. There is a cross reference (d) to Sirach in verse 9, and when I extend the PG to verse 9, that cross reference is included
NABRE has a cross-reference field, (but NAB does not).
Mark Barnes: Every resource in Logos has certain 'traits' which determine how it is used. This is how Logos knows, for example, which resources to search in the "Illustrations" section of the passage guide (the trait is called "sermon-illustrations"). These traits are not displayed in Logos, but can be seen in the catalog.db file. Unfortunately, several of the Bibles that could be marked with the "contains-cross-reference-footnotes" trait, aren't. No-one has yet explained why.
Every resource in Logos has certain 'traits' which determine how it is used. This is how Logos knows, for example, which resources to search in the "Illustrations" section of the passage guide (the trait is called "sermon-illustrations"). These traits are not displayed in Logos, but can be seen in the catalog.db file. Unfortunately, several of the Bibles that could be marked with the "contains-cross-reference-footnotes" trait, aren't. No-one has yet explained why.
Just to understand better: are you saying that everything is there in the respective bibles and it was just an oversight on Logos' side to not insert the flag in the catalog.db? What would happen if someone were to "correct" the catalog.db trait manually in SQLlite (not that I'd recommend someone editing the SQL db on a productively used L5 installation) - would this make the cross-references usable?
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NB.Mick:Just to understand better: are you saying that everything is there in the respective bibles and it was just an oversight on Logos' side to not insert the flag in the catalog.db?
That appears to be the case, judging by Bradley's comments above, and elsewhere.
NB.Mick:What would happen if someone were to "correct" the catalog.db trait manually in SQLlite (not that I'd recommend someone editing the SQL db on a productively used L5 installation) - would this make the cross-references usable?
I've already tried that. It doesn't work. The flag comes via Logos' metadata service — probably when it comes it updates catalog.db and some other database that we haven't yet discovered.