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Posts 11215
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 23 2018 10:06 AM

Bootjack, good question. When L7 appeared, I noticed cumulative feature catchup was more than keep-up. The reason was they popped the priced on the earlier features. Logos-inflating-tendenz.

"God will save his fallen angels and their broken wings He'll mend."

Posts 529
Bootjack | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 23 2018 10:07 AM

You yawned Denise but apparently never fell asleep. But you are permitted a wee nap if you do so desire!  :-) 

ASUS Rogue / 500 GB Samsung SSD / 500 GB HD / 16 Gigs of RAM/ Logos 8 Full Feature Set / Faithlife Connect Essentials 

Posts 30
m wilson | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 23 2018 10:18 AM

Bob Pritchett:
you have (understandably) become an "I don't need any more large package book purchases" customer, which means we're getting less revenue than was expected/needed to support the feature development you expect.

Which is why it seems plain as day that FL must end up in a Subscription model for it's features. Companies like Adobe, Microsoft, Intuit and Salsforce all do it. 

I was in the Adobe ecosytem when they made the change and the outcry was very loud, and yet look where they are now.     

BUT, what they all offer is a subscription to tools, not content! IMHO, that is FL's biggest issue. You started off operating in reverse of the current trend: Get free tools (functionality) if you buy content (really secondary products) that work with the tools. 

Now somehow you need to reverse that or at least rebalance it. Of course, the problem is, many of the people who bought into the first scheme and got you to this point are feeling betrayed. Not good:(

Of course, the flip side is: how many new tools and features does anyone really need? Brother, we are just reading books! 

Bob Pritchett:
At the root of this problem is that our component prices aren't lined up with our component costs.

So why not just trim the fat, cut the nonsense, and take the plunge into a full tools subscription and properly convince (basically bribe) your current owners into becoming subscribers. They helped you get here, Make them feel like they are important and in two years everyone will have forgotten about it and FL will have a sustainable model with happy advocates for their product. 

But, if you think that expanding the business requires all these "adjacent markets" then you better be right about what people want and be able to provide it. Sadly, I don't see as much evidence of that as I do FL trying to do things that they "hope" or "guess" will work. Thus, instead of offering people the tools for subscription, you are offering the tools with a lot of bloatware that no one wants to pay for.  

Honestly, how many people interested in parsing syntax, searching lemmas or reading 700 page commentaries are tuning into Faithlife TV? And the free books? The list is quite sparse and poor. 

I do actually think that the Ecourses are a great incentive, but sadly, the list of available choices is again not too exciting. 

Why not just sell the books and rent the tools, straightup? Give folks a fair chance to stick with a certain tool set at the end of their subscription or pay to upgrade and all is fine. A la carte will let you know what people want and what is a waste of everyone's time and money.  

Posts 154
Rob Lambert | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 23 2018 10:19 AM

This is why I’m not upset about the new announcement.  You are crediting back what I’ve paid to try LN over the last two years and I can use the credit to now “own” the full feature set.  Not many other companies out there would do that.

I hope Faithlife is successful in your new strategy; however, I strongly suspect that with the announced changes, your subscription revenue is going to decline rather than increase like you are hoping.  If that is the case, there will be of course new changes later down the road.  

The cost to purchase the full feature set empowering logos 7 is $429.21.  NOT $200 or $100.   You are getting less than half of the cost to get the stuff you are losing.  

Combine this with the FACT that the commission sales men (and one woman I never spoke with) offered Logos Now as the key to having the cool tools like lemma in passage (which have helped me get much closer to God) at the least cost;....therefore, I was able to put more of my wad toward buying the library I wanted.  I did and rented the feature set by getting Logos Now.

NOW, I get the privilege of renting not only the books I already own (literally, almost every one at each level) but renting the feature set for 2.4 times the cost of the feature set Logos Now was providing me.  I work in a rainforest and only have internet now and then.  Faithlife TV and the cloud are useless to me.....

In the old days I was a professor at USC business school.  We called this a "Cram Down"... .a situation where the "cramee" has no choice but to write off his investment or take the medicine.  With the investments all of us have made we can't leave .... and who would want to, no other company has anything like these great tools.

BUT... Bob, one of the key principals we had at our secular business school was to treat your customers like gold.  I feel like a brick to you.  But, I can promise that "All things work together for good to those that love God, the called according to His purpose."  I also know that Christians reap what they sow.  

In my mind, this is a horrible way to treat the folks who bought your stuff and deferred vacations and other stuff to have tools to serve God....and felt proud and privileged to give you their hard earned money.

If I were a young man and didn't own a library full of books I would jump at the ability to rent what I needed and the Faithlife Connect would be just fine.

I do wonder how you would feel Bob if you were one of your customers who strained every financial muscle in their body to buy your books and software....then got this proposal which is really and truly little more than a traditional Cram Down.

I do remain your faithful "Cramdownee" and will stick with Logos because there is nothing even close to as good.   I know I will never trust any of your staff as their good intentions were not same intentions as the management.  I will continue to buy your books, pay for Faithlife Connect Essentials...but I won't forget that i got bitten.... and if bitten again it is my fault.  

Also, I would gladly pay more if you just said you needed money and were raising your prices.... you didn't do that.... Instead you offer me things i don't want and can't use and then say take it or walk away.  This is not going over well with your key invested customers.

Unfortunately, this doesn't bode well for those of us who thought our purchased libraries would have strong residual value.... 

Rob

Posts 529
Bootjack | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 23 2018 10:24 AM

Yes sir M Wilson. That would be just super for those of us who do not want to go the Subscription route but presently have the product.  

Personally, I want to own the product, whether it be Logos 7 or to earn Air miles, jump into Logos 8 which I'll probably do. It seems from what you're saying, the owning option would eventually be ruled out. Or am I misreading something you're attempting to say? 

ASUS Rogue / 500 GB Samsung SSD / 500 GB HD / 16 Gigs of RAM/ Logos 8 Full Feature Set / Faithlife Connect Essentials 

Posts 1
David Istre | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 23 2018 10:34 AM

I love Logos and have invested into its software because it gives me indispensable tools.

I just hope that Logos does not get so caught up in looking at market trends that they forget to pay attention to why their business exists in the first place, which is to give people powerful tools for studying the Bible. 

My feeling as a Logos customer is that a subscription service will most likely price me out, or under deliver.  But, you said that you are keeping the buy-to-own service, which I am already very happy with, so I will have no problem. 

I hope you are able to make the business work and keep it flexible :D

Posts 529
Bootjack | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 23 2018 10:37 AM

Rob, you say "The cost to purchase the full feature set empowering logos 7 is $429.21." I take it that you're referring to a present customer and not a new one, correct? Can you clarify that a bit? Is it a Logos 4, 5 or 6 user who you have in mind or something else.

ASUS Rogue / 500 GB Samsung SSD / 500 GB HD / 16 Gigs of RAM/ Logos 8 Full Feature Set / Faithlife Connect Essentials 

Posts 29725
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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 23 2018 10:45 AM

Denise:
I wondered how many pastors sit around counting theophanies

Don't know about others, but as a child I was fascinated by the tables and lists in Dad's Unger's :-)

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 4
Danny Elliott | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 23 2018 10:53 AM

I have looked at the comparison chart.  The Logos Now features I regularly use will not be available through Faithlife Connect Starter.  I am being forced to pay double for Essentials.  Other new features available still does not bring back the current features I now use.  $200 off Logos 8 is nice, but does not solve the issue of still having to pay double for what I now use.  You can say all you want that Faithlife will give you this or that, but the fact remains that I will still have to pay double for what I currently use.  This does seem like punishment to me.

Posts 4077
SineNomine | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 23 2018 11:07 AM

Danny Elliott:
You can say all you want that Faithlife will give you this or that, but the fact remains that I will still have to pay double for what I currently use.  This does seem like punishment to me.

Danny, for you it's probably worth checking out Verbum Now, which offers almost exactly the same features as Logos Now at the same price (and Verbum staff have confirmed that Verbum Now isn't going anywhere anytime soon). There's a pretty decent chance that everything you use in Logos Now is available in Verbum Now.

Posts 529
Bootjack | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 23 2018 11:10 AM

I wasn't fascinated as a child but appreciate Unger's now, that's not Logos now.  :-) 

ASUS Rogue / 500 GB Samsung SSD / 500 GB HD / 16 Gigs of RAM/ Logos 8 Full Feature Set / Faithlife Connect Essentials 

Posts 30
m wilson | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 23 2018 11:24 AM

Bootjack:
It seems from what you're saying, the owning option would eventually be ruled out. Or am I misreading something you're attempting to say? 

In short: No,I think you will still be able to buy.

Long answer: Their model requires that you own the books, what they are saying is that the cost of support and new features is outpaced by the income. That's why they are raising the prices. All of the "extras" are to make customers feel better about paying more for what they actually want (i.e. features). But as the comments testifiy, not too many folks seem happy about that. 

So what are FL's choices?

A) Develop new products

B) Raise prices on system tools and features

C) Raise prices on books 

They have tried A, but that doesn't seem to cover the needs of Logos SW development.  

No one wants C, so they are now trying B (which makes the most sense) but are trying to find a away to ease the pain on their customers. Hence, subscription (i.e. a payment plan). The fact that they had a plan with Logos Now and Cloud and they didn't get th resiults they hoped for or needed is worrisome and why I think this is the next logical and required step,  Subscriptions even out their revenue stream and make for easier revenue projections.

Will they still offer straight up purchases? I would think (and hope) so, BUT, they NEED to offer both so that they can capture as much income as possible.That is the problem with their growth model. 

What they are not admitting (or seeing) is that we are headed into the diminishing returns end of the new tools and features curve and many folks are simply not going to want to pay for more stuff they neither need nor want. Yes, there are folks who want the latest and greatest, but that group will continually shrink. At some point, the great majority will be satisified with what they have (LN only had 1.8*% of the customer base, so we are more than there already).

OTH, the folks who have invested heavily expect (and IMO deserve) that the pre-existing bugs be worked out, though almost every SW company ends up abandoning that kind of work as it doesn't increase income. Growth requires new income streams, and people who have invested heavily are PAST Customers who are likely to buy less and less as time goes buy, and hence become less important.  

So, many of us are wondering why they don't just come clean and admit the issues and work with their customers to find solutions instead of trying to dress up and market the problem as a wonderful new feature. 

   

 

Posts 1083
EastTN | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 23 2018 11:36 AM

SineNomine:

I appreciate his honesty about how, were he founding Faithlife now, he'd probably go subscription only. I'm also glad that he's keeping the buy-and-own model that customers of his like you and me prefer.

I agree - I appreciate both.  I just find it a bit disconcerting that he no longer sees the model we like as a preferred way to do business.  I'd hate to see the ownership model gradually de-emphasized and neglected over time.  I'm not saying that Faithlife intends to do that, or ever will.  I just find it a bit unsettling.

Posts 3832
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PetahChristian | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 23 2018 11:46 AM

Bootjack:

PetahChristian:

Phil recommended that it would be better to wait for L8.

I've been lead to believe, that if one skips for example, from Logos 6 to Logos 8 (not buying Logos 7) then Logos 8 is going to cost much more. The recommendation to wait till L8 is ok but there is no specific reason given to do so other than a recommendation. 

One specific reason would be L8 introductory pricing. If you go from L6 to L8, the introductory savings would apply to both the new L7 and new L8 features you’d be buying. If you buy an L7 feature set now while it is not on sale, there are no savings.

In short, wait for additional savings.

Thanks to FL for including Carta and a Hebrew audio bible in Logos 9!

Posts 529
Bootjack | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 23 2018 11:47 AM

To make my answer real long, I appreciate you saying subscription = payment plan. Thanks for the reply. 

ASUS Rogue / 500 GB Samsung SSD / 500 GB HD / 16 Gigs of RAM/ Logos 8 Full Feature Set / Faithlife Connect Essentials 

Posts 529
Bootjack | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 23 2018 11:48 AM

Too late. I've bought L7 but didn't pay anywhere close to the 400.00 plus price mentioned earlier! :-) 

ASUS Rogue / 500 GB Samsung SSD / 500 GB HD / 16 Gigs of RAM/ Logos 8 Full Feature Set / Faithlife Connect Essentials 

Posts 1
Rhonda L. Tantalo | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 23 2018 11:55 AM

Good day to you Mr. Pritchett,

I hope this reply finds you well.  May I make a suggestion.  All the people that have been Logos Now members could be grandfathered into Logos Connect Essentials at the price they have been paying for Logos Now until such time as they no longer subscribe. It is hard to take away products at a certain price to customers and charge more than double for the same.  Then all new subscribers can pay the new price.  

Posts 2779
Kevin A. Purcell | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 23 2018 12:01 PM

Rhonda L. Tantalo:

Good day to you Mr. Pritchett,

I hope this reply finds you well.  May I make a suggestion.  All the people that have been Logos Now members could be grandfathered into Logos Connect Essentials at the price they have been paying for Logos Now until such time as they no longer subscribe. It is hard to take away products at a certain price to customers and charge more than double for the same.  Then all new subscribers can pay the new price.  

This likely won't work because Bob said in the first post...

Logos Bible Software has historically been priced in such a way that our bills are paid by book purchases; we've never charged enough for 'software' or 'features' to actually cover our costs.

We wouldn't do it that way if we were starting from scratch today, but that's where we are based on history and user expectations.

Many (but thankfully not all) of our "best customers" have built 'large enough for now' libraries, and are purchasing fewer ebooks, yet continue to want new features, and (as everyone adapts to the continual upgrade model of apps, subscription software, etc.,) they _expect_ new features more often, and at lower and lower (or no!) cost.

Posts 781
scooter | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 23 2018 12:06 PM

m wilson:
Their model requires that you own the books, what they are saying is that the cost of support and new features is outpaced by the income.

m, I figure U mean the reverse of this......Perhaps, if U have time, U could so edit.

Thanks for sharing your insight.

Posts 270
Claude Brown Jr | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 23 2018 12:08 PM

Okay so went to subscriptions and noticed that it says that I have both Connect and Now. Now will expire Nov 2018, Connect will renew at the starter level in June 2018 at 89.99. I am so confused as that seems like double billing to me as there is less than Now in the Connect starter level that billing starts for even as have Now for another 7 months. Even if billing for Essentials started in June I would not get anything that I did not have in NOW until November when Now would be discontinued? Am missing something ? I read BOB's post where He says "So yes, since everything in Logos Now is now in Faithlife Connect (and more, of course), and since Logos Now is no longer sold separately, you could argue that we raised the price of Logos Now." There is no more in the comparison chart.???

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