Selling Logos 4 in Bookstores?
Comments
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Bob Pritchett said:
That's how we feel about Logos. It's a powerful tool for working with a large library of quality Bible reference tools, which rewards an investment in learning to use it, all backed by stellar service. As a small collection of cheap books it's not nearly as attractive: it offers less content, the software seems "overpowering" for the content it has, it takes too much to learn to use, and we can't afford to offer the same service.
Bob, this is right on, in my opinion. The old $10 intro packs made Logos look cheap. "Why would I pay hundreds of dollars for this? I get this much and more free on the internet." But you don't understand, it does so much more when you have more resources for it to work with, I'd say. Ultimately, after they got a cheap starter pack, they were nowhere closer to becoming Logos users than they were when we started. They now just owned a $10 starter pack that they'd never launch cause it was easier to use the web or to not even use a computer at all. It simply didn't show off at all what Logos could do. I almost feel the same way about the cheaper base packages as well.
So, in summary, my experience after I bought about 20 of those starter packs is that unless you were giving away a ton more than you did there, it simply isn't a good way to get new users to Logos.
Jacob Hantla
Pastor/Elder, Grace Bible Church
gbcaz.org0 -
Bob Pritchett said:
That's how we feel about Logos. It's a powerful tool for working with a large library of quality Bible reference tools, which rewards an investment in learning to use it, all backed by stellar service. As a small collection of cheap books it's not nearly as attractive: it offers less content, the software seems "overpowering" for the content it has, it takes too much to learn to use, and we can't afford to offer the same service.
Good point. The other option would be to do some kind of a rental program, but then you have to go back to all those publishers and you still have to provide the expensive support. But you could always something like "if your not sure you want to take the plunge into Logos but you want to give it a shot, Rent every resource in the Scholars, our best selling product, for $50 with one month to try it out. If at the end you want to buy the product, you get $25 off your purchase of a base product.
Yeah, doubt it...but with cloud computing it does make it more feasible.
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Bob Pritchett said:
I think many of you are right: there is a (large) market of "lower-need" Bible students, many of whom might become full-fledged Logos users. But I don't think a cheap, trial Logos is the right way to reach them. Look for us to use a different brand, a different approach, and maybe even a different pricing model. (See http://bible.logos.com for a hint of where we're going. Or http://betabible.logos.com for an even bigger hint.)
As much as I love what Logos is doing with library.logos.com, I'm afraid I'm underwhelmed with the free bible.logos.com site.
To me, it needs to do two things to consider it a success:
- Outshine the many existing Bible study sites in some way.
- Provide a clear and compelling link to Logos Bible Software.
I can't say that it accomplishes either of those tasks in the current forms Bob Pritchett shared with us. [:(]
I'm also disappointed in the idea of Logos as a luxury brand. Yes, I understand the business sense behind this. But tools like Logos need to be in the hands of the many, not just those of us privileged to have book budgets. The Reformation took place in no small part because the printing press made God's Word (and tools to understand it) available to those outside the priesthood and the academy. Computer-assisted Bible study is another reformation waiting to happen, but not if it's treated as a Lexus.
It's important to me that Logos not price "entry-level" Christians out of the reformation, because I believe that this software is the right balance of power and accessibility, and because at the end of the day I believe it's possible to put together a useful collection that is not beyond the budget of your typical Sunday school teacher or Bible study member, if only there's a will to do it.
Maybe it's my personal experience of having bought what I could afford - a very basic starter package - and growing into a dedicated user. As I understand it, that's apparently not a common experience, either in these forums or in the broader Logos community. Still, unless Logos has an ace up its sleeve, which looks more like the iPhone app and less like bible.logos.com, I think it's a both a mistake and a shame to abandon that market segment to lesser programs.
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Sounds okay.
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I used Lexus as a quality comparison, and to make a point about branding, which is an unavoidable part of how people perceive things and assign value. Logos isn't priced with an extra "luxury premium", though -- it's priced based on what it costs to make and support. Saying it's a shame to abandon the lower price market to lesser programs is like saying it's a shame cheaper products are made with flimsy plastic parts. The two things are actually related.
Bob Schaefer said:Outshine the many existing Bible study sites in some way.
I think we do have a few aces up our sleeves -- our full web strategy is "not yet revealed" -- but I'm still curious about what Bible.Logos.com would need to do to outshine the other sites.
Thanks!
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Bob Pritchett said:
I used Lexus as a quality comparison, and to make a point about branding, which is an unavoidable part of how people perceive things and assign value.
Bob - let someone with a history in automobile manufacturing remind you that a Lexus is only a Toyota with the critical tolerances cut in half (or less) and more quality control. That is how they became "branded" for quality. And it costs alot more to manufacture due to these details.
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I like the idea Bob. If publishers come on board, then one day I may have access to my "Platinum Library" wherever there is an internet connection. Imagine reading, searching, etc., a resurce without downloading, indexing, or even having your computer with you.Bob Pritchett said:Terry Poperszky said:Now Bob, you realize this isn't the "private forum", are we supposed to keep quiet about this beta as well?
This is open to the public, though a very early beta. And this was the first mention of it.... you heard it here first. :-)
Make sure to limit it to one login at a time per user.
Looks promising.
Mission: To serve God as He desires.
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I don't give a hoot where Logos sells or doesn't sell their product. The Christian bookstore thing just worked for me. That's where I got mine.
But where Logos decides to sell their product is their business and has to be based on the numbers.
My thought was that if it's not going to be in Christian bookstores (at least for visibilities sake) - then some other advertising on the web or in magazines would be needed to increase peoples awareness that Logos even exists. To me sales seems to be about 40% user satisfaction with the product, and 60% visibility.
I also like the idea of setting up a web page that people can go to - to allow them to "use" or "preview" a web based version of the software. i suppose this idea is a much better use of Logos resources than handing out $10.00-$50.00 starter packs.
But if it's going to work - and actually attract people to the Logos brand and get people interested in buying the full Logos 4 program (and it's my understanding that that's the goal) - it should look and act just like the real deal does. The web site does not look anything like the program. That's gonna turn a lot of people off. IMHO.
So I'm wondering if making this beta web site look and act just like the real deal is going to be part of what Logos is doing with the overall re-design of Logos.com?
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Bob Pritchett said:
Saying it's a shame to abandon the lower price market to lesser programs is like saying it's a shame cheaper products are made with flimsy plastic parts. The two things are actually related.
Respectfully, I have to disagree. Maybe it simply isn't financially viable for Logos to serve this market segment while maintaining the quality of the product - you know that better than I do, of course. But that doesn't mean it's not a shame if that's the fact. Christians on a budget deserve better than the mediocre software that's currently available to them.
Bob Pritchett said:I'm still curious about what Bible.Logos.com would need to do to outshine the other sites.
That's actually a really good question!
If I answer honestly, I think I probably won't know the answer until I see it - it's the "wow!" moment that I had when I realized how far you'd come in translating L4 into a web-based resource over at library.logos.com. If you run with that, maybe including a web-centric version of the Home page, you'd be introducing a kind of Bible study tool to the web that just doesn't exist anywhere else, and that is distinctively Logos. You'd be able to provide a substantial part of the boxed "Logos experience" without any distribution costs, and (I'm guessing) with lower support costs.
That's what occurs to me right now, but I'll certainly share anything else I come up with that would polish the Logos halo.
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Bob Schaefer said:
Christians on a budget deserve better than the mediocre software that's currently available to them.
the reason the programs are viewed as mediocre is because programs like Logos exist. If "Premium" products didn't exist the "cheaper" alternatives would be heralded as great tools because they would then be at the top of the heap.
I'm definitely with Bob on this one. The only alternative I can come up with to not having a "best" that is out of the reach of some is to simply not create the best for anyone, to simply only create that which we are able to invest our money in without pay so that it is free to those who cannot afford to pay anything for it.0 -
About 100 years ago (just kidding) I went into a Christian bookstore and saw a product called CDWORD from Dallas Theological Seninary. It was the first time I saw real Greek text on a computer, and Greek lexicons, and it parsed. That was the day I decided to buy a computer, and within a few months CDWORD. When Logos started, they bought the rights to CDWORD (if my memory is correct.) When Logos came out, I was there waiting eagerly.
So I do trace my knowledge of Logos directly to that day in a Christian bookstore.
But I am an old guy, and things have changed. I realize that. Bob knows a lot more than I do about running his company.
However, I do care deeply about the future of Logos. I can't believe that an inexpensive package of resources in Logos 4 could not dominate the market for the lay persons Bible software dollar. There is no comparison in the quality of the Logos engine to anything else.
A visit to a bookstore gave me a new idea relating to Logos last week. A national Christian bookstore has a $9.99 sale on an entry level Logos 3 package on clearance now. I am considering buying a dozen of these and having a "Study the Bible on Your Computer" course in my Church. I would just give the packages to the class. Then I would recommend a few additional resources that could be bought from Logos.com. I think that would really benefit my members and would also benefit Logos. I think the interest would be high, and the members of the class might be Logos customers for life.
"In all cases, the Church is to be judged by the Scripture, not the Scripture by the Church," John Wesley0 -
News flash. Christian retailing is dead. No one buys music from them anymore. Books have been swallowed up by Kindle, iPhone, soon iPad and more. Software never did sell very well in stores. And, you can only sell so many trivets with Jesus Loves you on them. In short -- you can't make money with a brick and mortar store and Logos knows their product would collect dust.
Elder/Pastor, Hope Now Bible Church, Fresno CA
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Michael Childs said:
A visit to a bookstore gave me a new idea relating to Logos last week. A national Christian bookstore has a $9.99 sale on an entry level Logos 3 package on clearance now. I am considering buying a dozen of these and having a "Study the Bible on Your Computer" course in my Church. I would just give the packages to the class. Then I would recommend a few additional resources that could be bought from Logos.com. I think that would really benefit my members and would also benefit Logos. I think the interest would be high, and the members of the class might be Logos customers for life.
Did that two years ago for a Bible Study class at my church. Worked great.
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Mark A. Smith said:
Often word-of-mouth or a mention by a teacher or pastor counts more than a demo in a Christian book store. And in most cases you couldn't get a demo in a bookstore anyway, just a pretty box with a DVD inside.
Mark you are absolutely correct in that word-of-mouth is how most people find out about Logos. I did mine doing a bunch of on-line research looking at the different packages offered by different vendors and talking to several Pastor friends regarding Logos. All had heard of it, but didn't have the budget to purchase or weren't technology oriented. I have talked to sapes people in several stores and one of them was the son of a local pastor and he and his dad both think Logos is the best. So again it would be word of mouth. At the two closest Christian bookstores in my area the same beat up Logos 3 boxes are on display. At the store I purchased my Pastor's Library it was a special order as they didn't have any Logos products in stock.
So I presonally do not see it as an issue and still see it as an opportunity to talk to people about Logos everywhere I go.
In Christ,
Ken
Lenovo Yoga 7 15ITL5 Touch Screen; 11th Gen Intel i7 2.8Ghz; 12Gb RAM; 500Gb SDD;WIN 11
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Floyd, I purchased mine through a Christian bookstore, not because I saw it there - they didn't have any copies and had to special order it in - but because of my homework on-line.
In Christ,
Ken
Lenovo Yoga 7 15ITL5 Touch Screen; 11th Gen Intel i7 2.8Ghz; 12Gb RAM; 500Gb SDD;WIN 11
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Bob Schaefer said:
What if Wal-Mart's $10 software selection included a Logos starter set? What if Logos fans could direct their family and friends to a free download of L4 and a few basic resources? (Yes, they could get the free eBible demo in L3 and then download the new L4 engine, but that's a lot of work - I'm talking a one-click install here.)
Bob, from my knowledge of the inner workings of Wal-Mart, a $10 software offering would be a next to nothing revenue stream for Logos. Wally World dictates prices to their vendors, where else can you have some 30-something talk to a Disney Executive with an opening line like "Okay, what can Disney do for Wal-Mart?"
Personally I am glad not to see Logos in Wal-Mart @ $10, because I would probably not think it was worth much if it was selling at that price. Don't get me wrong I like a bargain and a fair price, but it you are willing to give it away it isn't worth much. Case in point the software company (we aren't one of the behemoths like Oracle, SAP, etc) went up against one of these large behemoths for a very large company's as their business solution. The other side went to the executives of the company and said they would give the software to them for the deal - planning to make up the revenue on support - to which the CEO rsponded and said "Then your software isn't worth anything." which ended their hopes and negotiations. We ended with the deal. I said all that to emphasize that price does matter both ways. It's a two-edged sword. Price to high you're out of the market. Too low and no one takes you seriously.
God Bless.
In Christ,
Ken
Lenovo Yoga 7 15ITL5 Touch Screen; 11th Gen Intel i7 2.8Ghz; 12Gb RAM; 500Gb SDD;WIN 11
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Something else that's related to this subject is the idea that Bob Pritchett brought up in one of his posts. He compared Logos 4 to a luxury automobile - a Lexus - if I remember correctly.
But I think that saying that Logos 4 is a "luxury" or "premium" Bible software misses the mark. It's not "Luxury" Bible Software - it's "Professional Level" Bible Software. There's a difference.
So, I think a better approach when comparing Logos 4 to other Bible programs - would be to liken it to a comparison of the programs AUTOCAD and Sketch-Up from Google.
AUTOCAD is a "professional" level software for serious drafting and architecture, whereas Sketch-up is sort of a tool for amateurs. Sketch-Up can't do half of what AUTOCAD can do.
So, (IMHO) - it would be better to use a tag line like: LOGOS BIBLE SOFTWARE; Professional Level Software For The Serious Study of Scripture.
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Stein Dahl said:
LOGOS BIBLE SOFTWARE; Professional Level Software For The Serious Study of Scripture
Stein I could agree more with your analogy. I liked the tag line too.
In Christ,
Ken
Lenovo Yoga 7 15ITL5 Touch Screen; 11th Gen Intel i7 2.8Ghz; 12Gb RAM; 500Gb SDD;WIN 11
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Stein Dahl said:
Something else that's related to this subject is the idea that Bob Pritchett brought up in one of his posts. He compared Logos 4 to a luxury automobile - a Lexus - if I remember correctly.
But I think that saying that Logos 4 is a "luxury" or "premium" Bible software misses the mark. It's not "Luxury" Bible Software - it's "Professional Level" Bible Software. There's a difference.
So, I think a better approach when comparing Logos 4 to other Bible programs - would be to liken it to a comparison of the programs AUTOCAD and Sketch-Up from Google.
AUTOCAD is a "professional" level software for serious drafting and architecture, whereas Sketch-up is sort of a tool for amateurs. Sketch-Up can't do half of what AUTOCAD can do.
So, (IMHO) - it would be better to use a tag line like: LOGOS BIBLE SOFTWARE; Professional Level Software For The Serious Study of Scripture.
Dale Pritchett once wrote - (in the printed user's manuals) -
"Logos Bible Study Software was designed and written to enhance personal Bible study. At Logos Research Systems we believe that quality software tools and texts make the Bible more accessible and facilitate its study. We thank all of our loyal users who have been gracious with their time and suggestions to assist us in making Logos Bible Study Software the unparalleled biblical library tool that it has become. We are commited to providing these tools and welcome your comments and suggestions towards this end." - emphasis added
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If this is what LOGOS wants to be (priced out of market; professional software...) then bring back Libronix. ( If I hadn't bought Ultimate... for $19.99 I would never, ever have heard of LOGOS. And if I had, I wouldn't have been interested.)
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Jeff Moore said:
If this is what LOGOS wants to be (priced out of market; professional software...) then bring back Libronix. ( If I hadn't bought Ultimate... for $19.99 I would never, ever have heard of LOGOS. And if I had, I wouldn't have been interested.)
Jeff, welcome to the forums.
For many people a reasonable Logos setup is under $40 - which is scarcely "priced out of market". Bob's vision is to be able to serve everyone from a Sunday School participant to a pastor to an academic. Regardless of where one falls in the mix, you can start by simply meeting your current needs and seamless change as your needs change without going through a software conversion. Don't even bother to price the Portfolio package if a Bible and a Bible dictionary is all you need. And I suspect Bob still has some tricks up his sleeve to not loose the low end market.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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With the free engine and free resources, you have a pretty good set up to get you started for $0
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Kelvin Niblett said:
With the free engine and free resources, you have a pretty good set up to get you started for $0
Free resources are very limited... Lexham English Bible ,Faithlife study Bible suite ( Faithlife Study Bible, Lexham Bible Dictionary), Connect the Testaments: A One-Year Daily Devotional with Bible Reading Plan.. I do know that occasionally free things come by in book of the month. It should also be noted that the FSB page states these "are free for a limited time, so download them today!" So eventually you may have no free Bible. That said it is a free way to get a good translation, and great study Bible, and good devotional. one can add on free Book of Common Prayer (1979) Sunday Lectionary & Book of Common Prayer (1979) Daily Office Lectionary and while not current for a Sunday lectionary, it is close to the RCL.... and the Daily office offers a nice set of daily readings.
-Dan
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Jeff Moore said:
If this is what LOGOS wants to be (priced out of market; professional software...) then bring back Libronix. ( If I hadn't bought Ultimate... for $19.99 I would never, ever have heard of LOGOS. And if I had, I wouldn't have been interested.)
Welcome [:D]
Logos has announced subscription access that starts at $ 8.99 per month => Introducing Logos Cloud
Technically, Libronix coming back is not viable (due to Microsoft's upgrades of Internet Explorer 8, which was the Libronix display engine).
Keep Smiling [:)]
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