Sell me Logos 7 today!
Comments
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This could lead to another level of base packages... one set of each (incl denominational BPs) for the regular individual, and one set of each (sans datasets) that are only visible to those who are Now Subscribers.Fr Devin Roza said:Bob Pritchett said:Charles McNeil said:Am I to understand that the subscribers to Logos Now and/or Cloud are field testing portions of L7 for a fee and later are still expected to buy it when it is rolled out (whenever that is)?
Nope. If you like the Logos Now model, I expect you will just continue to subscribe to it, and likely not ever need to make another 'upgrade' purchase.
I'm not sure I understand how Now users wouldn't pay twice. Here's my understanding, please correct me if I'm wrong.
A user who purchases a future v7 base package will be purchasing, in part, features and datasets produced by Faithlife that are new to v7. Most if not all of those v7 features and datasets are being released little by little in Now, and users are paying to access them "Now".
Many Now users will probably want to purchase a v7 base package, not because they need those new features and datasets (they already have them through Now), but because they want the books in the base packages. But they will also be paying for the features and datasets they have been funding with Now, and thus will pay twice for them, once through Now and once through the base package they get.
It can be argued that its okay for Now users to pay twice for these features and datasets, as they are getting "early access," which is certainly worth something. But it would seem to me they would still be paying twice if no discount is given based on monthly subscription to Now (again, something I'm simply suggesting, and realize that there are arguments against as well - what I'm really protesting in this message is the suggestion that Now users don't pay twice if no discount is given).
PLUS the whole you never have to pay twice thing is already deprecated - at least for academic users. You don't have to pay twice, unless of course you do. Any time dynamic pricing doesn't exceed academic pricing you have to pay twice already.L2 lvl4 (...) WORDsearch, all the way through L10,
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This is all so much simpler than everyone is saying. If what the Faithlife marketing says about Logos Now is accurate then it is early access to Logos 7 - in which case sell it to me now please. I'm not interested in renting but I'm willing to buy in advance.
If as Bob suggests it is something else then please be clear in the marketing.
גַּם־חֹשֶׁךְ֮ לֹֽא־יַחְשִׁ֪יךְ מִ֫מֶּ֥ךָ וְ֭לַיְלָה כַּיּ֣וֹם יָאִ֑יר כַּ֝חֲשֵׁיכָ֗ה כָּאוֹרָֽה
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John Goodman said:
This is all so much simpler than everyone is saying.
John,
Could it be that simplicity is not the problem? It sounds more like a lack of the will? "Where there is a will, there is a way. If there is a chance in a million..." Pauline Kael
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Bob, your response combined with the Logos Now marketing materials only leave me more confused and uncertain about Logos Now. Some clarification both from users & Faithlife could be helpful in sorting things out.
The OP is coming from the perspective of users who absolutely want to own, not rent, and seems to be asking you to reconsider the terms of Logos Now, to ensure an ownership path to Logos 7 rather than a sense of renting access with no price break once L7 release comes. I also want to own not rent, with a caveat.
I've been a Logos customer since 1995 or 96 (including your separate original Logos maps software, Bible clipart, etc.). My upgrades have been few and far between. I upgraded from your original product to Libronix, then to System X (I think that was the name) engine only, and when Logos moved into the modern age (& I switched to Mac) I eventually bought Logos 4 Portfolio base level package. I recently cross-graded to 6. I'm the type of customer who would normally wait a few major releases before upgrading or cross-grading (partially due to finances, partially waiting until I see revolutionary features I absolutely want). However, when I saw Logos Now presented as a way to get Logos 7 features and datasets as they trickle out, and when I saw a feature & corresponding dataset that I see as game changer in my study method's efficiency, Logos Now became an instant want. BUT...
I was curious about whether Logos Now subscribers will get dynamic pricing on Logos 7 cross-grade, which led me to stumbling upon this thread. The marketing materials present Logos Now as simply getting early access to the next major release's features and data sets as they trickle out. If that's an accurate description, then I could see myself subscribing to get the must-have features I want now, then cross-grading to 7 when available, and then dropping the Logos Now subscription until I see another must-have at some point in the future. But your response muddies the waters for me. You seem to envision Logos Now customers becoming perpetual subscribers and never again owning features, datasets, cross-grades, etc. I understand your points about needing a revenue model that supports your increased costs associated with hosted content. I, and I suspect many others, don't really care much about the hosted content, and am willing to forgo that hosted content (by dropping Logos Now once I cross-grade) to avoid recurring and continual subscription fees. You seem to be emphasizing Logos Now as primarily hosted content that will not likely roll into base packages, which is not what your marketing materials convey to customers as the purpose or emphasis. For those of us who are enticed by Logos Now as primarily a means to incrementally cross-grade to the next major release, the notion of paying a subscription and then having to pay full price to cross-grade when the next release comes feels like we're paying twice for some features. Others have repeatedly expressed this sentiment. Your answer appears to be we don't need to pay twice if we just keep subscribing forever. That's not an option for me, and likely is true of many others. Is there a middle ground we can come to for those of us in your customer base fitting this perspective? Given the apparent disconnect between the Logos Now marketing materials and your vision expressed in this thread, perhaps greater clarification of the Logos Now vision could also help clarify a lot of our confusion.0 -
Bryan Tucker said:
the Logos Now marketing materials only leave me more confused and uncertain about Logos Now. Some clarification both from users & Faithlife could be helpful in sorting things out. The OP is coming from the perspective of users who absolutely want to own, not rent, and seems to be asking you to reconsider the terms of Logos Now, to ensure an ownership path to Logos 7 rather than a sense of renting access with no price break once L7 release comes.
As a fellow user, I understand your concerns. Your reasoning is understood. Unfortunately, getting a practical satisfactory answer to your expressions will prove to be more of "hoping-against-hope". Given the "powers-to-be", the response will only be one or three things seen throughout the threads and the forums. I am NOT Bob, a mouth piece for him, a MVP, or a faithlife employee. I will affirm what I know to be their answer when I see it, if and when, one of them decides to respond. I don't want to rain on their parade. No, I am not a prophet nor a son of a prophet.
Bryan Tucker said:I also want to own not rent, with a caveat.
The only way renting Logos Bible Software will make sense is to give the users (millions) complete access to everything. They will not hear of it, except for renting "Now" (IMO, NOW is the tester for Logos 7). All rental situations (e.g WTC, Rockerfellow Ctr, Trump Towers, etc.) are not needy people looking for something free. To rent just says, "I don't want or can't afford to own. On the other hand, one seeking to own, like yourself, just want a reasonable product, in a timely manner, at a fair market value. Until then, keep faith alive, in faithlife.
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There still is not a clear communication on this though. If Logos Now was Logos 7 early then a sale of the minimal crossgrade early at something like the average price for a minimal crossgrade would make sense. Especially if at launch one had the option of swapping it for a bigger base packages without a loss. e.g. $200 now. Then at launch either you own minimal crossgrade or you choose to have $200 off gold and pay the difference. If Bob wants regular cash I'm convinced of the value so I'd subscribe. I just want ownership. So far they haven't delivered content which would not easily fit the old ownership model except the graphics but I already owned most of it. I just didn't have a media browser only a search box. I guess we can only wait and see what happens but the clearest message I've heard is something like:
They don't yet know what they want Logos Now to be.
They want to be paid to make a half decent online client before they deliver the product.
It may or may not prove similar/the same as logos 7 and features in Now may or may not be kept separate.
For us now we have to decide whether we do or don't want those features now.
It's like the parable of the workers in the field. If you arrive late you've still got it all;)
If you are wondering whether the website is worth gaining access to yet then it offers very little that wasn't available by accessing the sites they already had but it ties a lot of it together. Just recently there is experimental access to a display feature that means you can view interlinears online. If you need access to your interlinears online then you might fancy this? Some of the guides are there too but not complete.
גַּם־חֹשֶׁךְ֮ לֹֽא־יַחְשִׁ֪יךְ מִ֫מֶּ֥ךָ וְ֭לַיְלָה כַּיּ֣וֹם יָאִ֑יר כַּ֝חֲשֵׁיכָ֗ה כָּאוֹרָֽה
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It never ceases to amaze me how there is so much confusion surrounding Logos Now when you can test drive it for free for 30 days.
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It's not just about what Logos now is... It's about the ongoing value of a library we've invested a lot of money. Its also about a change in the way we think about and interact and pay for that library. It's about trust. I'm semi satisfied by Bob's answers so I'm renting for now but regretfully.
גַּם־חֹשֶׁךְ֮ לֹֽא־יַחְשִׁ֪יךְ מִ֫מֶּ֥ךָ וְ֭לַיְלָה כַּיּ֣וֹם יָאִ֑יר כַּ֝חֲשֵׁיכָ֗ה כָּאוֹרָֽה
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abondservant said:
This could lead to another level of base packages... one set of each (incl denominational BPs) for the regular individual, and one set of each (sans datasets) that are only visible to those who are Now Subscribers.
What I was suggesting would simply be some sort of "discount coupon" based on how many months of the development of L7 one was subscribed to Now.
So, it wouldn't affect base package configuration at all, except to make them slightly cheaper for Now subscribers and avoid them having to pay twice for datasets. They would purchase the same base package as anyone else, just applying some sort of coupon code / dynamic pricing based on their Now subscription and how it should affect their dataset pricing.
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John Goodman said:
I'm semi satisfied by Bob's answers so I'm renting for now but regretfully.
Is this the outcome of Bob's cleverness or the addictiveness of the Logos product?
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Charles McNeil said:John Goodman said:
I'm semi satisfied by Bob's answers so I'm renting for now but regretfully.
Is this the outcome of Bob's cleverness or the addictiveness of the Logos product?
No it's pragmatic reasoning based on having the sermon collection and the discourse analysis already on my wish list. Since they bundled permanent ownership of books I wanted with the now subscription I thought I'd give it a go. My observation so far is that the most helpful feature is the systematic theologies section of the passage guide. Unfortunately it's still not as good as the cited by tool at identifying content because my collections are more up to date than the tagging. The extra data sets are IMHO not that essential but perhaps make searching easier. As I said previously the website is not yet a great improvement over the offerings they had. So far I don't think Logos now is very good.
גַּם־חֹשֶׁךְ֮ לֹֽא־יַחְשִׁ֪יךְ מִ֫מֶּ֥ךָ וְ֭לַיְלָה כַּיּ֣וֹם יָאִ֑יר כַּ֝חֲשֵׁיכָ֗ה כָּאוֹרָֽה
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John Goodman said:
No it's pragmatic reasoning based on having the sermon collection and the discourse analysis already on my wish list. Since they bundled permanent ownership of books I wanted with the now subscription I thought I'd give it a go. My observation so far is that the most helpful feature is the systematic theologies section of the passage guide. Unfortunately it's still not as good as the cited by tool at identifying content because my collections are more up to date than the tagging. The extra data sets are IMHO not that essential but perhaps make searching easier. As I said previously the website is not yet a great improvement over the offerings they had. So far I don't think Logos now is very good.
Bro. John,
I guess 50% of something is better than 100% of nothing.
Keeping faith in Faithlife...
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I don't see Faithlife giving any discount at all for 7 to Now subscribers. From their perspective, Now is an ongoing revenue stream needed to pay for ongoing expenses. It would defeat the entire point to take that revenue and give it back to customers in the form of a discount on 7. In that scenario, from a financial standpoint, Now would more closely approximate a payment plan for a one-time purchase of a crossgrade rather than an ongoing revenue stream for Faithlife that is separate and apart from any/all one-time purchases. I am sure such would appeal to some users, but it does not line up with the purpose Bob seemed to indicate Now serves on Faithlife's end.
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Matthew said:
I don't see Faithlife giving any discount at all for 7 to Now subscribers. From their perspective, Now is an ongoing revenue stream needed to pay for ongoing expenses. It would defeat the entire point to take that revenue and give it back to customers in the form of a discount on 7. In that scenario, from a financial standpoint,
On whose authority you speak? Are you a spokesperson for Bob or Faithlife? Do you have an inside connection or information on Faithlife's finances? How do you know that "Now [IMOP, pre-L 7] is an ongoing revenue stream needed to pay for ongoing expenses?" If this is so, milking the serious users of Logos the way to go?
Frankly, I think long time users and those greatly invested (I am not professing to be one) should be given a discount when they purchase L7. Bob should give these individuals serious consideration, providing opportunity for others to invest more to received the needed income as you mentioned earlier.
No one is asking Faithlife to give away the store. Just open their hands a little to receive more. It takes money to make money. A closed hand can't receive anything. Sometimes, you have to give, to get.
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Charles McNeil said:
On whose authority you speak? Are you a spokesperson for Bob or Faithlife?
My comment reflected my understanding of Bob's post earlier in the thread. He said:
1. "There isn't a good way to deliver that content permanently, and we're trying to avoid a situation where we commit to permanent server-based hosting and delivery (which does cost money to maintain) for one-time purchases"
2. "But over time we'll need our revenue to match expenses (at least within some close approximation!), and as our expense model moves to 'perpetual costs for hosting / maintenance / support' we'll need a revenue model that is structured similarly."
3. "We've all previously acted as if there's a purely transactional relationship: we build Product X, you pay onetime for Product X and own it.
But our cost to build Product X is starting to have a long tail -- you expect Product X to get bug fixes, updates when new operating systems are released, support for new mobile platforms, etc. That's more an on-going relationship than a transaction, and ultimately, one way or another, we'll need revenue to cover that."
4. "...you subscribe to Logos Now (for a very reasonable cost!) in order to fund ongoing support, online content, online services, feature development, and incremental improvements."
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Matthew said:Charles McNeil said:
On whose authority you speak? Are you a spokesperson for Bob or Faithlife?
My comment reflected my understanding of Bob's post earlier in the thread.
Somehow it seems you overlook the very first part of his post:
Bob Pritchett said:Charles McNeil said:Am I to understand that the subscribers to Logos Now and/or Cloud are field testing portions of L7 for a fee and later are still expected to buy it when it is rolled out (whenever that is)?
Nope. If you like the Logos Now model, I expect you will just continue to subscribe to it, and likely not ever need to make another 'upgrade' purchase.
Have joy in the Lord!
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Matthew,
Thanks for the enlightenment. One would think that Faithlife would have a better plan or an endowment for future levels and developments. At best, Bob's explanations are subject to raise many questions in the minds of Logos users. Many do come to Faithlife for the Logos Bible Software with the mindset of Bob's number # 3 point above.
IMOP, there must be shared sacrifices. Promised users of Now, a discount pro-rated toward L7. Afterall, they are field-testers of what will be a major part of Logos 7. A little incentive may prove to go a long way.
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IMHO there are three things going on with Logos now.
1) They want to monetize the beta channel.
2) They want to connect costs and revenue with regards to hosting and data costs. Certain datasets and video content are too large for us to all download.
3) They want to fund development of a decent webapp.
I wouldn't have a problem except that:
1) datasets which could work locally and in fact do work locally on the computer are being restricted to rental. This means that parts of Logos are off limits unless you are willing to rent.
2) I've come to expect that webapps should be free except for premium content. Lots of other companies provide great free website in which I pay for content.
3) It feels pretty cheeky to ask me for more money after I've bought the content. Especially cheeky to ask for money when the website is so much more basic than other bible websites at the moment. Yes I understand about netflix etc but I feel like I'm paying for the content. With Logos Now I feel like I'm paying for a pretty basic website.
4) The media browser feature in particularly left me upset because I was looking forward to the images I bought with Logos 6 only to find that the user interface was so poor as to make them effectively unusable. Now I feel I'm being asked to rent access to images I bought outright.
5) Logos Cloud customers are getting a better deal than I ever got... loyal customers what a loyal company.
That's how I understand things and how I feel about them. I am a big spender when it comes to Logos stuff, too much so to get out but it does make me feel really alienated as a customer. The poor and incongruous communication about these things also spoils my enjoyment of updates. I look forward to new product releases from many companies and get excited about buying gadgets and software. They way Logos communicates and the pricing strategy makes me feel disappointed again and again.
At the moment I still buy it because it is really handy software. It's where all my books are. I know how to use it. I've explored the alternatives and they don't meet my needs.
IMHO they need to think about making it fun to buy Logos products again.
גַּם־חֹשֶׁךְ֮ לֹֽא־יַחְשִׁ֪יךְ מִ֫מֶּ֥ךָ וְ֭לַיְלָה כַּיּ֣וֹם יָאִ֑יר כַּ֝חֲשֵׁיכָ֗ה כָּאוֹרָֽה
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NB.Mick said:
Somehow it seems you overlook the very first part of his post
I do not believe I did. Since you mention it though, here is my understanding of it. Bob said, "If you like the Logos Now model, I expect you will just continue to subscribe to it, and likely not ever need to make another 'upgrade' purchase."
1. The reason there will be no need to make an upgrade purchase is that all new features and datasets are included in Now.
2. In order to not need to upgrade, Bob said he expects you will just continue to subscribe to Now.
3. If you stop subscribing, you lose the features and datasets because you never actually bought them. In that case, yes, you need to upgrade.
Bob is the best interpreter of Bob, but I saw absolutely nothing in the first or any other part of the post indicating the slightest chance of a discounted or free upgrade to 7 for Now subscribers. Not saying it can't or won't happen, only that nothing in what Bob posted indicated that it will.
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Charles McNeil said:
NB.Mick said:
Nope. If you like the Logos Now model, I expect you will just continue to subscribe to it, and likely not ever need to make another 'upgrade' purchase.
Exactly, what is Logo 7? Is it possible to have a description before the product?
Charles,
please quote correctly - that's what Bob wrote, I just cited him.
Regarding Logos 7, unless you are a victim of the Mac application-name-number-increasing-bug-feature, this of course is a new iteration of Logos bible software, not yet sold or fully defined, but expected and announced to come up some time (probably more than one and less than three years) after the release of Logos 6. It will contain a free engine at some point in time and probably have differently sized bundles of book ressources plus new features and datasets.
The currently largest selling point for Logos Now is access to such features and datasets, which will be part of Logos 7 (most of them probably as part of a product bundle we would describe today as either a Crossgrade or a Base Package). We get them now - hence the name - others get them with Logos 7 and some of them may be free in the engine and others will be for pay in those product bundles.
That's my private parsing of what Faithlife has officially said on that, so don't hold them to dot all the i's and cross any t's of my post, but I think it's possible to describe it as such.
Have joy in the Lord!
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That is the disagreement between forum talk and marketing which I've highlighted. In the marketing they tell you it's Logos 7 early... Then sell it to me please. On the forum they say it's a complimentary extra in which case I lament the rental model.
גַּם־חֹשֶׁךְ֮ לֹֽא־יַחְשִׁ֪יךְ מִ֫מֶּ֥ךָ וְ֭לַיְלָה כַּיּ֣וֹם יָאִ֑יר כַּ֝חֲשֵׁיכָ֗ה כָּאוֹרָֽה
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I understood who said what. I am not blaming you for trying to explain what only Bob can make clear. However, I said,.. {IMOP, there must be shared sacrifices. Promised users of Now, a discount pro-rated toward L7. Afterall, they are field-testers of what will be a major part of Logos 7. A little incentive may prove to go a long way.}
Bob, didn't say there will be a discount. This what I am suggesting.
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Charles McNeil said:
Afterall, they are field-testers of what will be a major part of Logos 7
I don't understand this comment.
Logos Now subscribers get access to new content after it has been tested by those Logos Now Subscribers who choose to be involved in beta testing.
Once it ships to the stable channel it is seen as a stable release.
What am I missing here?
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Charles McNeil said:
Bob, didn't say there will be a discount. This what I am suggesting.
Just so long as you remember this. Bob is under no obligation to follow your suggestions.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Super.Tramp said:
Just so long as you remember this. Bob is under no obligation to follow your suggestions.
Have no fear, no one needs to worry that I would have more influence on Bob than they do. He who holds the "gold" don't usually listen to many other souls.
Here is proof I know the difference between the words OBLIGATION and SUGGESTION:
sug•ges•tion \səg-ˈjes-chən, sə-ˈjes-, -ˈjesh-\ noun
14th century
1 a: the act or process of suggestingb: something suggested
2 a: the process by which a physical or mental state is influenced by a thought or idea 〈the power of sugges-tion〉
b: the process by which one thought leads to another especially through association of ideas
3: a slight indication: TRACE 〈a suggestion of a smile
********* ******** ***********
ob•li•ga•tion \ˌä-blə-ˈgā-shən\ noun
14th century
1: the action of obligating oneself to a course of action (as by a promise or vow)
2 a: something (as a formal contract, a promise, or the demands of conscience or custom) that obligates one to a course of action
b: a debt security (as a mortgage or corporate bond)
c: a commitment (as by a government) to pay a particular sum of money also: an amount owed under such an obligation〈unable to meet its obligations, the company went into bankruptcy〉
3 a: a condition or feeling of being obligated
b: a debt of gratitude
4: something one is bound to do: duty, responsibility
Mish, F. C. (2003). Preface. Merriam-Webster’s collegiate dictionary. (Eleventh ed.). Springfield, MA: Merriam-Webster, Inc.
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John Goodman said:
That is the disagreement between forum talk and marketing which I've highlighted. In the marketing they tell you it's Logos 7 early... Then sell it to me please. On the forum they say it's a complimentary extra in which case I lament the rental model.
Disagreement? Why can't it be both?
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Charles McNeil said:
Here is proof I know the difference between the words OBLIGATION and SUGGESTION:
Ouch! You shouldn't tempt the logician in me with such a strong temptation - and before I finished my first cup of coffee! What you have proved is that you know how to find obligation and suggestion as two separate words in the dictionary. [6] However, even without the dictionary reference, I would easily accept the premise that you know the difference in meaning between the two words.
In case you didn't know my favorite pet is shown below which should tell you why your reasonable statement caused me such distress. Nearly everyone will take it with the meaning you intended.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:
Disagreement? Why can't it be both?
The difference is in the way Bob describes it earlier in this thread. It sounds like he's thinking of it as an extra - content never included in the base packages. I suspect the aim will be that even if you buy Logos 7 you will never own what comes with Logos Now. Maybe some of it but not all of it anyway. He quite clearly talks about it as something which you will want to rent in addition to owning Logos 7.
גַּם־חֹשֶׁךְ֮ לֹֽא־יַחְשִׁ֪יךְ מִ֫מֶּ֥ךָ וְ֭לַיְלָה כַּיּ֣וֹם יָאִ֑יר כַּ֝חֲשֵׁיכָ֗ה כָּאוֹרָֽה
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John Goodman said:MJ. Smith said:
Disagreement? Why can't it be both?
The difference is in the way Bob describes it earlier in this thread. It sounds like he's thinking of it as an extra - content never included in the base packages. I suspect the aim will be that even if you buy Logos 7 you will never own what comes with Logos Now. Maybe some of it but not all of it anyway. He quite clearly talks about it as something which you will want to rent in addition to owning Logos 7.
I'm reminded of Israel in the wilderness
24 And the people complained against Moses, saying, “What shall we drink?”
The Holy Bible: New Revised Standard Version (Nashville: Thomas Nelson Publishers, 1989), Ex 15:24.
2 The whole congregation of the Israelites complained against Moses and Aaron in the wilderness.
The Holy Bible: New Revised Standard Version (Nashville: Thomas Nelson Publishers, 1989), Ex 16:2.
2 The people quarreled with Moses, and said, “Give us water to drink.” Moses said to them, “Why do you quarrel with me? Why do you test the LORD?” 3 But the people thirsted there for water; and the people complained against Moses and said, “Why did you bring us out of Egypt, to kill us and our children and livestock with thirst?”
The Holy Bible: New Revised Standard Version (Nashville: Thomas Nelson Publishers, 1989), Ex 17:1–3.
Now when the people complained in the hearing of the LORD about their misfortunes, the LORD heard it and his anger was kindled.
The Holy Bible: New Revised Standard Version (Nashville: Thomas Nelson Publishers, 1989), Nu 11:1.
Then all the congregation raised a loud cry, and the people wept that night. 2 And all the Israelites complained against Moses and Aaron; the whole congregation said to them, “Would that we had died in the land of Egypt! Or would that we had died in this wilderness!
The Holy Bible: New Revised Standard Version (Nashville: Thomas Nelson Publishers, 1989), Nu 14:1–2.
28 Say to them, “As I live,” says the LORD, “I will do to you the very things I heard you say: 29 your dead bodies shall fall in this very wilderness; and of all your number, included in the census, from twenty years old and upward, who have complained against me, 30 not one of you shall come into the land in which I swore to settle you, except Caleb son of Jephunneh and Joshua son of Nun.
The Holy Bible: New Revised Standard Version (Nashville: Thomas Nelson Publishers, 1989), Nu 14:28–30.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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George Somsel said:
I'm reminded of Israel in the wilderness
24 And the people complained against Moses, saying, “What shall we drink?”
The Holy Bible: New Revised Standard Version (Nashville: Thomas Nelson Publishers, 1989), Ex 15:24.
2 The whole congregation of the Israelites complained against Moses and Aaron in the wilderness.
The Holy Bible: New Revised Standard Version (Nashville: Thomas Nelson Publishers, 1989), Ex 16:2.
2 The people quarreled with Moses, and said, “Give us water to drink.” Moses said to them, “Why do you quarrel with me? Why do you test the LORD?” 3 But the people thirsted there for water; and the people complained against Moses and said, “Why did you bring us out of Egypt, to kill us and our children and livestock with thirst?”
The Holy Bible: New Revised Standard Version (Nashville: Thomas Nelson Publishers, 1989), Ex 17:1–3.
Now when the people complained in the hearing of the LORD about their misfortunes, the LORD heard it and his anger was kindled.
The Holy Bible: New Revised Standard Version (Nashville: Thomas Nelson Publishers, 1989), Nu 11:1.
Then all the congregation raised a loud cry, and the people wept that night. 2 And all the Israelites complained against Moses and Aaron; the whole congregation said to them, “Would that we had died in the land of Egypt! Or would that we had died in this wilderness!
The Holy Bible: New Revised Standard Version (Nashville: Thomas Nelson Publishers, 1989), Nu 14:1–2.
28 Say to them, “As I live,” says the LORD, “I will do to you the very things I heard you say: 29 your dead bodies shall fall in this very wilderness; and of all your number, included in the census, from twenty years old and upward, who have complained against me, 30 not one of you shall come into the land in which I swore to settle you, except Caleb son of Jephunneh and Joshua son of Nun.
The Holy Bible: New Revised Standard Version (Nashville: Thomas Nelson Publishers, 1989), Nu 14:28–30.
Seriously? That's extremely rude George... I call foul.
You think Bob is going to slay us all? I think Bob has shown himself to be interested in a dialogue with his customers. You can see above that he is listening to our feelings and making a considered response. For me, it is an important issue. I spend a lot of money here and part of the reason is because they listen. There are several features which are now implemented and I enjoy because we asked!
The long and the short of is is that I'm asking to purchase Logos 7 early. So far Bob says he doesn't think that's a good idea. I'd like to explain how the present situation feels. Faithlife has not made clear to it's customers what Logos Now is and how it relates to Logos 7... it is not surprising we are discussing the relationship between the two products.
If you think I'm grumbling then your are free to judge me but just be careful the measure you use;)
I'd rather keep the conversation going and improve the relationship than walk away feeling disappointed.
גַּם־חֹשֶׁךְ֮ לֹֽא־יַחְשִׁ֪יךְ מִ֫מֶּ֥ךָ וְ֭לַיְלָה כַּיּ֣וֹם יָאִ֑יר כַּ֝חֲשֵׁיכָ֗ה כָּאוֹרָֽה
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John Goodman said:
I call foul
I have to agree with John on this one.
John Goodman said:Bob has shown himself to be interested in a dialogue with his customers. You can see above that he is listening to our feelings and making a considered response.
Exactly.
John Goodman said:I'm asking to purchase Logos 7 early. So far Bob says he doesn't think that's a good idea
IMO, that's not asking for too much. With L4 and L5, we got the enhancements (and a LOT of fixes), free, as they came out. It wasn't until L6 that we started having to pay a subscription to get these things as they were introduced. John's not asking for a paradigm change here. In fact, FL changed the paradigm when they introduced LN.
Having said all that, I'm still not sure I want L7 now. I didn't like the roll-out of L4 and L5 with so many issues, so I would be a bit two-faced if I complained that L7 isn't rolling out early. Having ditched my FOMO attitude, I am fine to wait until L7 is a salable product. But I don't begrudge those asking for it early because of what I said above.
Eating a steady diet of government cheese, and living in a van down by the river.
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John Goodman said:
Faithlife has not made clear to it's customers what Logos Now is and how it relates to Logos 7... it is not surprising we are discussing the relationship between the two products.
Is Bob willing to give an official statement explaining what "Logos Now is and how it relates to Logos 7" and at the same time clear up any misunderstanding in advertisement?
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John Goodman said:
It sounds like he's thinking of it as an extra - content never included in the base packages.
Ah ... I see the basis of your statement. To me Bob was saying that there may be some content that is never included in the base package because it is not practical to have it on your device rather than in the cloud. I suspect that there will be a few Logos Now features that never make it to Logos 7,8, 9 ... but the features most likely to be in this category are features I rarely use personally. I think most features, probably even "nearly all" features will make it into the desktop given the current trajectory. But there may be more of a delay than we would like to insure the Logos Now version retains value. But that is speculation on my part.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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John Goodman said:
Seriously? That's extremely rude George... I call foul.
I find the continual carping rude and I call "Foul." It seems that some on this forum have little better to do than to complain. As my mother used to say, "Bitch, bitch, bitch, and the soup hasn't even been poured yet."
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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George Somsel said:John Goodman said:
Seriously? That's extremely rude George... I call foul.
I find the continual carping rude and I call "Foul." It seems that some on this forum have little better to do than to complain. As my mother used to say, "Bitch, bitch, bitch, and the soup hasn't even been poured yet."
Wow... Forum rules?
גַּם־חֹשֶׁךְ֮ לֹֽא־יַחְשִׁ֪יךְ מִ֫מֶּ֥ךָ וְ֭לַיְלָה כַּיּ֣וֹם יָאִ֑יר כַּ֝חֲשֵׁיכָ֗ה כָּאוֹרָֽה
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John Goodman said:
Wow... Forum rules?
The last time I checked, are users of Logos Software required to used this forum?
George may need a time out.
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There are certain persons on the forums, John, that you have to, as MJ would say, "give low priority".
Eating a steady diet of government cheese, and living in a van down by the river.
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Peace be with you George... Let's take it down a peg? And be friends?
גַּם־חֹשֶׁךְ֮ לֹֽא־יַחְשִׁ֪יךְ מִ֫מֶּ֥ךָ וְ֭לַיְלָה כַּיּ֣וֹם יָאִ֑יר כַּ֝חֲשֵׁיכָ֗ה כָּאוֹרָֽה
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John Goodman said:
Peace be with you George... Let's take it down a peg? And be friends?
That sounds good to me, but must we have continual complaints regarding Logos? If you don't like it, there are other programs.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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OK friends it is... I hope you can see I've tried to set a very positive tone to this thread from the outset. Maybe I deviated from that for a bit but I tried to emphasise how it feels and I think it helps if faith life know how we feel. I prefer to be challenged more gently. No I can't use other software because Logos is hands down the best;)
גַּם־חֹשֶׁךְ֮ לֹֽא־יַחְשִׁ֪יךְ מִ֫מֶּ֥ךָ וְ֭לַיְלָה כַּיּ֣וֹם יָאִ֑יר כַּ֝חֲשֵׁיכָ֗ה כָּאוֹרָֽה
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John Goodman said:
I've tried to set a very positive tone to this thread from the outset. Maybe I deviated from that for a bit but I tried to emphasise how it feels and I think it helps if faith life know how we feel. I prefer to be challenged more gently.
John,
You're within your rights to express yourself, especially if you are in the USA.
COMPLAINT is neither a dirty wrong nor the act itself. It simply means: 1. an expression of grief, pain, or dissatisfaction. 2. a : something that is the cause or subject of protest or outcry. You're an adult with a point of view. Thank you!
John Goodman said:No I can't use other software because Logos is hands down the best;)
This is all the more why you should express your views. You have invested so much, for so long, and love to a great degree the Logos product. You are doing the right thing, at the right time, and under the right thread.
As I see it, believe it or not, you’re doing Bob and other Logos users a favor. “Statistics suggest that when customers complain, business owners and managers ought to get excited about it. The complaining customer represents a huge opportunity for more business.” Zig Ziglar
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....Root of bitterness, anyone?....
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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John Goodman said:
OK friends it is... I hope you can see I've tried to set a very positive tone to this thread from the outset.
John,
You are a "good" "man"! If for no other reason, its your name (Goodman). Peace, Love, and Grace.[:)][:)]
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AS I think I may have said I do not want Logos 7 anytime soon. But one thing I find very troubling is Bob's statement that possibly none of Logos Now will make it to a Logos 7. I realize there are subscription items that I would only expect to see within Logos Now. But if none of the more standard features like Proverbs Explorer make it to Logos 7 what will make me want to upgrade, and I sure do not want to have new features added to a paid upgrade that are not finished. I know there are no solid plans for what is likely to be next falls upgrade, and I certainly do not want Logos 7 to have every feature of Logos Now, but there seems to me to be more than a few features of Logos Now like the Web App which other companies generally include for free (in Bible software for example there is www.mywsb.com), that make sense to be Logos 7 features. I am very happy for those of you who wish to have Logos Now and pay to be beta testers, and get access to sample new books, I am not jealous because I too could be part of it, I choose not to be. And if everything developed within the Logos Now world never makes it to Logos 7 that is fine too (albeit illogical in my mind, but fully a Faithlife decision).
I have learned to be content with whatever I have. (Phil 4:11b) My deepest prayer is for all of us to be more like Paul and less like Tantalus.
-Dan
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Dan Francis said:
I know there are no solid plans for what is likely to be next falls upgrade, and I certainly do not want Logos 7 to have every feature of Logos Now, but there seems to me to be more than a few features of Logos Now like the Web App which other companies generally include for free (in Bible software for example there is www.mywsb.com), that make sense to be Logos 7 features.
This is disturbing, if true, for one who's considering purchasing L7.
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Well I would expect that it will be 10-11 months before we have to worry about 7, so a lot of things can change.
-Dan
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At the risk of making this thread even longer... :-)
The re-presentation of my 'four points' seems to still be relevant.
It also seems we're having a vocabulary problem -- which I understand we have created. "Logos 7" is actually three things: A) new code,
new 'core features' (code and data closely entangled), and C) more/different books in base packages. Starting with Logos 6 we started to make these things clearer, and even to offer tiers of crossgrade and upgrade options, allowing you to pick what you wanted.We're not yet ready to announce how Logos Now meshes with Logos 7 (we're working on it!), but the basic principles are the same as we have stated over and over and over in these forums. And the reasoning behind them remains the same as it was in the four points helpfully reposted.
I'll hit the key points again, though:
Yes, we want everyone to subscribe to at least Logos Now. It's good for us and it's good for you.
Yes, we know some of you wish to never subscribe to anything, and we will continue to let you purchase things, though some things require online databases, or are hard to 'complete' and you're unlikely to be able to purchase them. We will continue to try to make Logos Now such a compelling offer that you give in and subscribe.
If you do subscribe to Logos Now, you're doing what we want you to, and we would be foolish to 'punish' you for doing what we want. Yes, this is a form of 'trust me', but I feel like we've earned it. If you subscribe to Logos Now, you won't be 'punished' when Logos 7 ships. Yes, we will want you to continue subscribing (on the road to Logos 8!), but our plan, our intention, and our own financial self-interest requires us to treat you well, because you did what we wanted!
Logos Now is best understood as (mostly) parts A and B of the three things that make up a new release. Eventually A (the new code) is free to everyone. B (new code/data entanglements) and C (different books) are part of Logos 7, but we'll price Logos 7 differently -- somehow -- for people who've been subscribing to Logos Now for a while and effectively paying for 'B' already.
People who wait for Logos 7 and get A, B, and C all bundled together may still be missing parts of 'B' that require online databases, etc.
Now, some specific answers:
John Goodman said:1) datasets which could work locally and in fact do work locally on the computer are being restricted to rental. This means that parts of Logos are off limits unless you are willing to rent.
Some of the reason datasets are in Logos Now is because they need online content. But an equally big reason you're leaving out is that many of the new datasets are 'forever incomplete' and being constantly updated. Yes, the data file may be downloadable, but we're updating it constantly as part of Logos Now. If we've tagged 30 books to work with a new guide section, we can download that database to your machine. But over the following months (and years) we're tagging dozens / hundreds more, and that's hard to sell to people. So we put it in Logos Now, where the subscription revenue funds ongoing tagging. This is a big deal to us in labor / expense / etc. that isn't obvious on the other side -- except that things just keep getting subtly better, and staying in sync with new content.
John Goodman said:2) I've come to expect that webapps should be free except for premium content. Lots of other companies provide great free website in which I pay for content.
Alas, my grocer still charges me for food no matter how much I come to expect it for free. :-)
Seriously, you're right, and it's a problem that's dangerous for the industry: lots of good web apps are free. Sometimes because a deeply funded company is willing to lose money to gain share (a luxury we don't have), or because they have another revenue stream -- like covering that site in ads. Note as well that very few 'free web apps' have powerful downloadable desktop software and custom apps for dozens of platforms, AND no ads shown. I don't think we're really in that game at all.
(Well, we are -- see http://biblia.com. But it's not full Logos -- for a reason -- and it has ads, just like most of the free Bible web apps, which don't have very powerful tools or very large libraries.)
John Goodman said:3) It feels pretty cheeky to ask me for more money after I've bought the content. Especially cheeky to ask for money when the website is so much more basic than other bible websites at the moment. Yes I understand about netflix etc but I feel like I'm paying for the content. With Logos Now I feel like I'm paying for a pretty basic website.
Well, the web app is the most trivial part of Logos Now -- it's the data, code, content, services, etc. that deliver the value. The web app is (for now) a bonus -- and while it looks like it hasn't yet caught up to Logos desktop (and it hasn't), a massive amount of work has been going on behind the scenes, and it'll take some big leaps forward in the next twelve months.
-- Bob
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Bob...
I don't mind spending another dollar or two on Logos Now to make VISUAL COPY not so ANEMIC.
As of now, Visual Copy seems so weak. It suppose to saves time, but in reality it doesn't.
1. It doesn't have the ability to remember the last template being used. Thus it would take me more time to search the last template I've just used.
2. The scrolling issue. It so bad. That it doesn't give you the same consistent result whenever we scroll. It always gave different results. And it also repeats the results. Do give different categories or something.
3. We still can't change the font size, which is quite important for most of us. (Even the "other" bible app is able to do just that in their mobile app)
4. Still there's no favorites folder so we can use the same ones all the time.
5. Having just 1 (ONE) column is bad for choosing. Can we have 3 columns for us to see the templates please. 1 column = perpetual scrolling. Arghhh....
.
I love you do the updates on the so "advance" features. But please .. Visual Copy needs attention.
Thank you.
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