Sell me Logos 7 today!
Comments
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Doc B said:
I don't think Josh means (or even implies) that FL should turn off some of the features to make the software easier to use.
One of his specific suggestions was that a double-click would pronounce a word - but double-click does something else at the moment. So, to a degree, his suggestion would change the way the program works.
Doc B said:I think he want s a more intuitive way to search. In another thread, a user expressed a desire for common-language search strings. I think he is asking for something like that.
That may be so but I didn't see anything in his request that was calling for searching - it was more along the lines of easy ways of opening Bibles and Commentaries. And I don't really understand what the issue is here - and that may be perspective[:)]
Doc B said:Recently, I kept a forum reply to a search question as an example. Look this over from the perspective of a non-programmer layperson, and tell me this isn't complex-
It is complex but the question it was seeking to answer was not simple.
And Mark's explanation in that thread outlined the steps taken to construct the search.
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Doc B said:When you specify a Morph Search like lemma:εἰς@C and then click on Bible, it is expanded as <Lemma = lbs/el/εἰς> ANDEQUALS <LogosMorphGr ~ C?> ---> after removing unnecessary stuff in parentheses! ANDEQUALS requires εἰς and the morph code for Conjunction to be at the same location (or belonging to the same word) So, if you want to know where "for" is used to translate a Greek conjunction you would use a Bible search like for ANDEQUALS <LogosMorphGr ~ C?>
I agree with most of your other points, but not with this one.
Last night my Dad asked me to show him how to cut out part of a photo and lay it on top of another photo, using Photoshop. As far as he was concerned, that was a relatively simple job. By Photoshop standards, he's right — every Photoshopper worth his salt can perform this task.
But it order to show him how to do it, I had to explain how layers worked, why there are different ways of 'selecting' the part of the image you want (masks, paths, channels and selections), and then show him how to actually cut around the image. Of course, when we pasted it in, it didn't look quite right. So then I had to explain how differences in light colour and shadow direction can affect one's perception of any image. I had to take him through the various ways of adjusting these problems, and explain the differences between the Shadow/Highlight adjustment and Brightness/Contrast, and between the Photo Filter adjustment, Hue/Saturation/Lightness, and Colour Balance. I didn't dare mention the Curves or Levels tools!
It took about 90 minutes. That's after he's spent about 8 hours watching Photoshop tutorial videos. He's not an expert (nor am I!), but he now knows enough to make good progress on his own.
The moral of the story is that doing even 'simple' tasks well requires an understanding of the concepts that are behind the task, not just which buttons to click. It's true in Photoshop, and it's true in Logos. Time invested in learning these concepts is time well-spent. We should press for Logos to become simpler and simpler to use (without sacrificing its power). But we should also press ourselves to become more and more skilled at interpreting the Bible using the best and most suitable tools available.
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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Mark Barnes said:
The moral of the story is that doing even 'simple' tasks well requires an understanding of the concepts that are behind the task, not just which buttons to click. It's true in Photoshop, and it's true in Logos. Time invested in learning these concepts is time well-spent. We should press for Logos to become simpler and simpler to use (without sacrificing its power). But we should also press ourselves to become more and more skilled at interpreting the Bible using the best and most suitable tools available.
Let's not forget what the average layperson who buys a Bible program is looking for. An electronic Bible with multiple versions, study aids such as commentaries and dictionaries, and the ability to do basic searches in English. That's a level of "simple" that's far below "Photoshopping" a picture. Will some of us go beyond that level? Of course. But just as many - and perhaps even more - won't. That may not be the market that FaithLife is targeting with Logos, which is perfectly fine. But there are folks who aren't doing sophisticated exegesis, just want a program to simplify their studies and give them access to more study aids, and will walk away if it gets too difficult to use. Faithlife might be able to keep them by putting some training wheels on the user interface.
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EastTN said:
Faithlife might be able to keep them by putting some training wheels on the user interface.
You are correct and I suspect that is what Faithlife is attempting to do with their sample searches when you open a Search. What would you suggest as more effective training wheels?
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:
You are correct and I suspect that is what Faithlife is attempting to do with their sample searches when you open a Search. What would you suggest as more effective training wheels?
That's a great question, and I wish I had an equally great answer. I think you're right about the sample searches - and I personally find them very helpful. For what it's worth, I would suggest three basic strategies:
- Make the default behaviors what a novice or casual user would expect;
- Make the most common, simple tasks easy to access; and
- Provide an option to hide the complexity of the more advanced options.
It seems to me that Faithlife is already doing a reasonable job of this in some areas. The basic search operates the way most people would expect, and the sample searches help you begin doing more complicated things. Some other search interfaces offer multiple input boxes for "Containing any of these words," "Containing all of these words," "Containing the exact phrase," etc. That might be a nice intermediate option for the casual user.
For what it's worth, I think some of the complexity comes from building the interface around the structure of the software system. This shows up in a couple of ways. I don't think the distinction between "documents," "guides," and "tools" is one that's immediately obvious to the new user. For instance, why is "Passage Guide" under "Guides," but "Explorer" under "Tools"? Or "Topic Guide" under "Guides," but "Factbook" under "Tools"? I understand that there's a different technical architecture powering the guides than is powering the tools, but it's a distinction that means nothing to the novice user. Similarly, why is the "Atlas" a "tool" when we also have various atlases as resources in our library? Again, I get that there's an architecture difference, but the user who just wants to find a map showing where Megiddo is doesn't care. For the casual user an interface that's organized around tasks rather than tools is more intuitive, because they know what they want to do better than they know the tools.
None of this is intended as a slam against the Faithlife team. Designing user interfaces is very difficult. But, with the Logos/Verbum distinction I think they've demonstrated that they can provide different user interfaces to meet the needs of different target audiences. The mobile app also has a different interface. It might be worthwhile for them to consider doing something along the same lines for casual users.
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EastTN said:
For what it's worth, I think some of the complexity comes from building the interface around the structure of the software system. This shows up in a couple of ways. I don't think the distinction between "documents," "guides," and "tools" is one that's immediately obvious to the new user. For instance, why is "Passage Guide" under "Guides," but "Explorer" under "Tools"? Or "Topic Guide" under "Guides," but "Factbook" under "Tools"? I understand that there's a different technical architecture powering the guides than is powering the tools, but it's a distinction that means nothing to the novice user. Similarly, why is the "Atlas" a "tool" when we also have various atlases as resources in our library? Again, I get that there's an architecture difference, but the user who just wants to find a map showing where Megiddo is doesn't care. For the casual user an interface that's organized around tasks rather than tools is more intuitive, because they know what they want to do better than they know the tools.
Very good example and concrete enough that I suspect Eli might be able to do something with it.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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I agree with EastTN. The original menu structure from Logos 4 has been added on to and it's time to reassess and restructure especially the Guides and Tools menus.
More broadly, from a UI perspective, I continue to wait for the ultimate user interface to appear in Logos - a single Google-style search box that allows me to type in any question in natural language, and it will show me ranked results of what I may be looking for. No need to memorize where certain tools are. No need to remember any search syntax, or which type of search to use. Just give me the search results in order of relevance.
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If only Google actually did that for me ... although it is far more reasonable for my searches than Bing.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Charles McNeil said:
Phil Gons (Faithlife) said:
Correct. We prefer subscription or membership language to renting language. Renting often designates (1) a fixed pool for (2) a fixed period of time. For example, a student decides to rent a textbook from Amazon for 4 months. Subscription usually implies (1) a dynamic (growing) pool (2) indefinitely.
Come on, Phil Gons, you just admitted that using LN is renting. Please, don't pour a cup of water on my foot and tell me it's raining. Rent by any other name (Subscription) is RENTING.
Like it or not, this is a real distinction in the publishing world. Many publishers are happy to make their books available for rent, but don't want anything to do with subscriptions.
It's a real distinction in the movie world as well: you subscribe to Netflix or Amazon Prime to stream unlimited TV or movies, but you rent a movie from iTunes or Google Play and have 30 days to watch it and 48 hours once you start to complete it.
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Charles McNeil said:
Faithlife still comes out top with a dollar from approx. 2 1/2 million users per month times 12.
Alas... while we have more than 3 million registered users, the vast majority are zero-revenue users of our many free offerings, like the Faithlife Study Bible mobile app.
I appreciate the posts acknowledging our on-going costs for maintenance and support. I really am sympathetic to the people who feel like we're 'changing the deal' and 'deeply gutting' them. But that 'changed deal' goes both ways: when we started we sold a boxed software package via a retail channel; we never even knew who most customers were, and tech support in those days was (for almost every product) limited to 30 or 60 days.
You made a purchase, and most of the time we never heard from you at all -- and certainly didn't have to support you. Now we have to keep servers up, answer phone calls (surprisingly expensive) and release a free update to handle iOS 9 issues, the latest version of Android, Windows, Mac, etc.
It's changes for everybody, and we're just trying to navigate this space fairly and with an eye on survival, so we can be here to serve you in the future.
And, of course, we all have different ideas of what 'the basics' mean. (I was surprised to see a reference to improving printing support in this thread -- I don't print 10 pages a year now, and then usually just a contract that needs a signature!)
There are lots of good suggestions here, and we really are reading, discussing, and thinking about the various proposals. But we have limits of code, time, contracts, and complexity that will all play a factor.
My goal has always been to deliver more value at a lower price, and I think we've done that over and over and over for many years.
In some ways we're becoming victims of our success: the purchased software really does meet many peoples' needs very well. Many people don't want or need the new things that come in Logos 6. (You'd be amazed how many people are running Logos 4 and 5 still.) So they stop buying upgrades and sometimes even content -- they have more books than they can use -- but they still call us for support, still expect (demand!) updates to their mobile apps, and still use many server-dependent features, etc.
Sure, you can say we should 'price that future support into the purchase', but it's hard to do -- and the expectations are impossible to predict. (When we shipped Logos 4 we had no Android app or plans for one, but many Logos 4 users expect it as a free accessory to their desktop app. That wasn't priced into their purchase of Logos 4.)
I'm not trying to pick a fight or antagonize anyone -- especially not our best customers! We're just trying to find a plan that works and keeps us paying the bills.
(Serious question: Would you 'I have to own it' fans be okay if ownership really was completely transactional? You buy it, you get it as it is that moment. We disable server features, give 30 days tech support and then start charging $10/call, and you don't get feature upgrades or OS-related improvements to your mobile apps without paying an upgrade fee?)
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Sometimes I don't understand those people who complains about Logos Now that only costs $8/month. It is quite cheap regardless which features you use (or don't use) (plus the special perks). If you can afford a base package, I'm sure $8/month shouldn't be that much; specially if you live in western countries with a regular job.
In fact, you're getting a better deal to subscribe to Logos Now now rather than when it was released on day 1 .. because you get more features than what they've offered on 1st day.
No?
.
(alright, maybe LN can be cheaper, since I only use the (beta) Web App feature)☺
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Bob Pritchett said:
(Serious question: Would you 'I have to own it' fans be okay if ownership really was completely transactional? You buy it, you get it as it is that moment. We disable server features, give 30 days tech support and then start charging $10/call, and you don't get feature upgrades or OS-related improvements to your mobile apps without paying an upgrade fee?)
Bob, please don't take this wrong, because it's really not intended to be a flip answer. As you said, that was pretty much the deal when many of us first purchased Logos. I think I've only called tech support once, and that was when I was having problems with the unlock key for my brand new Libronix package. (I could be misremembering, but it hasn't been much.) More recently community support through the forums has been plenty for me. It's also how most of my other software purchases work for me, and for most home users. I buy a new version of Office about as often as major upgrades of Logos come out. As a home user I don't buy a support contract. I suspect that similar experiences are driving a lot of the reactions you're getting. (Of course, if I were a paid minister who absolutely positively had to get three sermons written a week, a support contract might suddenly start looking like cheap insurance.)
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJ6xBaZ92uA (Don't ask what this has to do with the subject other than the fact that someone always seems to want something additional.
I think part of the problem is that Logos is tooooooo accommodating. We're getting feature-itis. Everyone seems to have some feature he would like to see implemented (some almost contradictory). Yes, most of the features in Logos meet the user's needs quite nicely, and adding new features simply increases the cost of doing business. When an OS changes or some new exigency arises, it might be time for an update to the program, but it seems that as soon as a new version is out of the box users are looking forward to the next one ("Sell me Logos 7 Today").
I remember when McDonald's started their empire. We would drive over to McD's on our lunch hour from school and score some cheap burgers. Today even the cheapest burger (Dollar Menu) costs several times what it did then. That's simply a part of being in a society where costs continue to rise ($15 to flip burgers? Are these people crazy? It's a beginner's job not intended to support a family). Has Logos ever considered reconsidering the prices for some older resources (i.e., ones that have been in the catalog the longest)? They may need to have a price increase.
There has been a time or two when I've run into a problem and would have gladly paid you (and not next Tuesday) for the help I received at the time. Fortunately, when I say a time or two, that's about all. Usually it wasn't a Logos problem at all though it manifested itself in Logos. Some service charge might be an option to be considered on a case-by-case basis.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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George Somsel said:
That's simply a part of being in a society where costs continue to rise ($15 to flip burgers? Are these people crazy? It's a beginner's job not intended to support a family).
You obviously don't have cousins in rural towns where a job at MacDonalds is considered a prime position because it is year-around not seasonal ... not quite as good as being a self-employed house cleaner but a good start. Yes, at 40 they'd scored a PUD job and and housecleaning business. You also obviously have not lived in a city where a room in a shared house costs $800-$1500 a month so that store managers have a second job if they want a roof over their head. Nor have you discovered that your clerk and her disabled husband are living in their car because they don't know where to go to get priority for rental assistance.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:George Somsel said:
That's simply a part of being in a society where costs continue to rise ($15 to flip burgers? Are these people crazy? It's a beginner's job not intended to support a family).
You obviously don't have cousins in rural towns where a job at MacDonalds is considered a prime position because it is year-around not seasonal ... not quite as good as being a self-employed house cleaner but a good start. Yes, at 40 they'd scored a PUD job and and housecleaning business. You also obviously have not lived in a city where a room in a shared house costs $800-$1500 a month so that store managers have a second job if they want a roof over their head. Nor have you discovered that your clerk and her disabled husband are living in their car because they don't know where to go to get priority for rental assistance.
You obviously don't know what you're talking about — been there, done that. I was attempting to be non-political, but under the current administration I realize that this may be all that is available. Wait until we get a new administration and that will change.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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George Somsel said:
You obviously don't know what you're talking about — been there, done that. I was attempting to be non-political, but under the current administration I realize that this may be all that is available. Wait until we get a new administration and that will change.
But I just moved out of one of the cities that implement a $15 minimum wage ... I agree that not all cities have such a high cost of living but I'd rather pay more for goods than increase my taxes to pay for the consequences. But I already knew that while we agree on many things, social politics is not one of them. And having seen children and grandchildren get married and out on their own, I know being on the bottom economically is far harder than when I started at $1.25 /hr.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:George Somsel said:
You obviously don't know what you're talking about — been there, done that. I was attempting to be non-political, but under the current administration I realize that this may be all that is available. Wait until we get a new administration and that will change.
But I just moved out of one of the cities that implement a $15 minimum wage ... I agree that not all cities have such a high cost of living but I'd rather pay more for goods than increase my taxes to pay for the consequences. But I already knew that while we agree on many things, social politics is not one of them. And having seen children and grandchildren get married and out on their own, I know being on the bottom economically is far harder than when I started at $1.25 /hr.
Yes, times are tough (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ovndTa7hQDE). Implicit in my comment was the realization that kids need jobs too just to get started in the job market. When the expense of hiring a worker is too high, they go for more experienced help.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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Bob Pritchett said:
(Serious question: Would you 'I have to own it' fans be okay if ownership really was completely transactional? You buy it, you get it as it is that moment. We disable server features, give 30 days tech support and then start charging $10/call, and you don't get feature upgrades or OS-related improvements to your mobile apps without paying an upgrade fee?)
As one of the 'I have to own it customers' here's my response:
1. First, dispel the myth and misunderstanding of some on this thread - I'm not asking for anything for free (In all my posts I offered to pay - I'm asking for something that Logos doesn't (yet) offer! In other words a suggestion!!
2. Bob, you have it partially right. With the exception of disabling server features.... I see it this way (and I hope I can explain it clearly):
Everytime you offer a new feature in LN (I believe every 6 weeks or so), you also offer the feature for sale at a suitable cost which would enable that feature on Logos software for life. [This is in addition to giving/adding it for free to those who prefer to/ need to rent and pay their $9 pm for LN]
e.g. Concordance $200 (say) or Free to 'Subscribers'
'Kings of Israel Interactive' $100 or Free to 'Subscribers'
New Feature 17 $200 or Free to 'Subscribers'
Those who pay up front will get to keep the feature they have paid for life (purchase model) [so you will need to carefully price each feature]
This model will allow some users to pick and choose features they want and those they don't, it will keep current LN renters happy (nothing changes for them), and will allow those of us who are willing to pay for the option to keep the features happy. It will also give you additional cash (and more than $9) every 6 weeks (at least from me!)
The feature set of purchasers and renters at any given time will be identical.
Think of it as a price for a 'lifetime susbscription' for the feature, if that helps you to understand it.
3.
Bob Pritchett said:give 30 days tech support and then start charging $10/call,
I have never use / had the need to use 'phone Tech support. It seems you have a lot of calls though, so yes I think charging for support is a great idea to enable you to have more cashflow to help pay your bills. I'm sure those who think that customers shouldn't get things for free will all agree with me too!
Thanks for listening and considering different options.
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MJ. Smith said:EastTN said:
For what it's worth, I think some of the complexity comes from building the interface around the structure of the software system. This shows up in a couple of ways. I don't think the distinction between "documents," "guides," and "tools" is one that's immediately obvious to the new user. For instance, why is "Passage Guide" under "Guides," but "Explorer" under "Tools"? Or "Topic Guide" under "Guides," but "Factbook" under "Tools"? I understand that there's a different technical architecture powering the guides than is powering the tools, but it's a distinction that means nothing to the novice user. Similarly, why is the "Atlas" a "tool" when we also have various atlases as resources in our library? Again, I get that there's an architecture difference, but the user who just wants to find a map showing where Megiddo is doesn't care. For the casual user an interface that's organized around tasks rather than tools is more intuitive, because they know what they want to do better than they know the tools.
Very good example and concrete enough that I suspect Eli might be able to do something with it.
I agree these are great reflections, at least as starting points for consideration. I have also proposed redesigning the menus (here is that post for reference), with ideas that I think are complementary to these ones here.
Apart from the menus, creating an "advanced search builder" that would allow you to construct complex searches using a combination of drop down menus, text boxes, buttons, etc. could go along way to helping to simplify what currently is the most difficult to learn, but also most powerful, tool in Logos & Verbum. Obviously users will still need to understand how the search works "behind the scenes" a bit to be able to construct them, but at least they wouldn't need to basically be able to write out something that looks a bit like a SQL string to be able to perform them.
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James Hudson said:Bob Pritchett said:
(Serious question: Would you 'I have to own it' fans be okay if ownership really was completely transactional? You buy it, you get it as it is that moment. We disable server features, give 30 days tech support and then start charging $10/call, and you don't get feature upgrades or OS-related improvements to your mobile apps without paying an upgrade fee?)
As one of the 'I have to own it customers' here's my response:
1. First, dispel the myth and misunderstanding of some on this thread - I'm not asking for anything for free
I agree with you. The phase "asking for anything for free", is a straw man raised by some.
I would say to Bob:
- Let those who want ot by Logos 7 or any other thing, FL is selling, let them buy it.
- If you are going to rent anything to anybody, give them access to everything, rent it all (I don't mean the current Cloud). If FL sells it, rent it too. This helps Faithlife generate the continuous income from millions and even new customers will be added from around the world. It is better to get a little from a lot of people (contractually) for an unlimited period of time; than to get a lot, from a limited number of people (selling products) for a limited period of time. The latter, requires new products and/or new customers, marketing, etc.
- Have two divisions of Logos: Selling and Renting
- People who buy, wants ownership and all that goes with it. They will have something to pass on to others. It's just like home ownership.
- People who rent, don't want the responsibility or can't afford ownership. They just want usage as long as they are able to pay. They will have nothing to pass on, when they stop paying, just like renting an apartment.
- I know people with large libraries don't want to hear this, but it's not a betrayal. It's adjusting to the times and the demands in light of needed expenses. Besides, Bob has the "right" and the "responsibility" to do what is legal and reasonable to make a profit, pay his bills (on time), and take care of his employees (so they can provide for their families).
- Faithlife can do both (sell and rent), if it chooses to do so. I think this company can "walk and chew gum at the same time". The more a company gives customers options, the more customers will come and tell others. A developer can sell houses and provide rentals at the same time (e.g. ask Mr. Trump and others). So, Large library holders and long time users, don't tie Bob's hands. Let Bob, be Bob. Changes are coming to Logos. I am not a mouthpiece or a spokesperson for Bob. Just a voice of reason when a company with a rich product needs to generate new income, customers, and maintain long time users.
- No, I am not telling Bob what to do. Like most of you, I am making suggestions. An astute business man considers profitable and practical suggestions from non-MVPs, moderate size library holders, etc.
- Be a part of the solution, problems have more than it share of followers. Peace, to all the people!
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James Hudson said:
e.g. Concordance $200 (say) or Free to 'Subscribers'
'Kings of Israel Interactive' $100 or Free to 'Subscribers'
New Feature 17 $200 or Free to 'Subscribers'
Those who pay up front will get to keep the feature they have paid for life (purchase model) [so you will need to carefully price each feature]
The problem with this idea — which otherwise I would support 100% — is that Logos has always promised that program updates will be free, pretty much for life. That makes it very difficult for them to charge for tools like the Concordance, without a backlash from users. So what they've been saying instead is that program updates will be free, but you may have to wait to get them for free (and in the meantime you can pay for early access).
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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Hi, Bob!
Thanks for asking for input regarding completely transactional ownership deals! I'll voice my opinion. Btw, I'm J Unix Cyklist, with my actual and active account I've posted 2020 times on the forums and have a very satisfactory library sans some language resources for which (and for several other things) I go to Accordance. This account I'm posting from now is merely my student email with $1.99 purchase which I will consolidate with my actual account (probably not until several years from now as I need to first give away the book from my actual account (bought with academic pricing) and then get it back when consolidating). I've stopped posting. So I only voice my opinion because these two points I make in this post, regarding non-online transactional datasets and a pdf manual are definitely my most important suggestions - I'd only have one other, small suggestion: the 2004 Good News Translation 3rd Edition UK-English 66-book Bible (there's no american equivalent of the specific newest Edition and it's popular in the UK).
Now that is a very interesting question You have since it brings up a point I once made in the Suggestions forum (with my actual account): next time Faithlife offers crossgrades (L7 and perhaps also V7 if possible) there should be options on most levels of crossgrades to get a crossgrade a little cheaper without any online databases/access to material! I'd also be equally satisfied if it were completely transactional and I would get datasets I'd otherwise preferably need to get through Logos Now or Verbum Now. The online options are the ones I use the least, if ever any of them and I'm certain I can do without them no matter what is going to come down the road - as I explain below download is not completely free for the end customer. Even if internet would be or would become cheaper or faster (for me for example) I'd still very much love an option without any of the online. But I do understand a few suggestion doesn't make it an obligation on Faithlife's part to offer, I'm just certain I will never ever upgrade to anything whatsoever if it won't be provided. Even a comparatively small discount thanks to accepting not getting the online databases will get me on board a deal as here specified/requested, though:Bob Pritchett said:In some ways we're becoming victims of our success: the purchased software really does meet many peoples' needs very well. Many people don't want or need the new things that come in Logos 6. (You'd be amazed how many people are running Logos 4 and 5 still.) So they stop buying upgrades and sometimes even content -- they have more books than they can use -- but they still call us for support, still expect (demand!) updates to their mobile apps, and still use many server-dependent features, etc.
Sure, you can say we should 'price that future support into the purchase', but it's hard to do -- and the expectations are impossible to predict. (When we shipped Logos 4 we had no Android app or plans for one, but many Logos 4 users expect it as a free accessory to their desktop app. That wasn't priced into their purchase of Logos 4.)
I'm not trying to pick a fight or antagonize anyone -- especially not our best customers! We're just trying to find a plan that works and keeps us paying the bills.
(Serious question: Would you 'I have to own it' fans be okay if ownership really was completely transactional? You buy it, you get it as it is that moment. We disable server features, give 30 days tech support and then start charging $10/call, and you don't get feature upgrades or OS-related improvements to your mobile apps without paying an upgrade fee?)
Yes I would really like a pdf manual (posted with my actual account about that in the main thread asking for print manuals), I will print and bind it myself - that's more environmentally friendly and less hassle for You since You don't need to physically ship anything - and it really isn't difficult to bind it. But I refuse to put Weeks into collating a manual myself (yes there's a lot of material online). Monitor real-estate is expensive in laptops (I'm against most intelligent handheld mobile devices especially because of the rare earth minerals in the displays of them), as well as mobile broadband: I have a beneficial 3rd generation (3G) mobile broadband (900 and 1800 MHz) subscription (actually two of them) - it's OK and it would currently be much too expensive and with too limited geographical area coverage as 4th generation (4G), additionally mainly for hiking purposes and perhaps some odd very rural or tunnel distances to sometimes travel at high speed, I'll be getting a digitized 1G 450 MHz broadband developed first as Nordisk Mobiltelefoni (when it was analog it was referred to as NMT450 and available mostly in Northern Europe but not the UK), nowadays the company is net1 and the infrastructure provided by Teracom https://www.teracom.se/About-Teracom/ - the space for sending and receiving is merely 5 MHz, it's not intended for the use of everyone or in the cities, except that some "911" forces may also to some extent rely on Teracom infrastructure which is why it's not going to be depreciated, probably ever, building a replacement network would be expensive and groups such as fire fighters and any other can subscribe to priority, for an added fee. It's not a must - if money is tight I won't be getting that at least not this year and it does look like money is going to be very tight for me in the first half of the year 2016. Why have multiple old laptops and one laptop with AMD's very best mobile CPU (at least according to a somewhat recent statement and cpubenchmark.net a couple of Weeks ago) and not any mobile broadband? Since optical fibre is cheaper it's an option for me to consider or complement with but despite that there are several rental apartment buildings in my block with 8 family apartments at almost every floor and 16 floors altogether, and no villas close, there's (still?) no optical fibre about anywhere in these blocks and still no plans for any fibre!:Bob Pritchett said:And, of course, we all have different ideas of what 'the basics' mean. (I was surprised to see a reference to improving printing support in this thread -- I don't print 10 pages a year now, and then usually just a contract that needs a signature!)
translatio-princpld...
10 Bibls.. Supporting the cause of the right for data0 -
George Somsel said:
Today even the cheapest burger (Dollar Menu) costs several times what it did then. That's simply a part of ($15 to flip burgers? Are these people crazy? It's a beginner's job not intended to support a family).
Let me say before the self appointed Forum monitor/police shows up:
George,
Where is your compassion? You acknowledged that, "being in a society where costs continue to rise", but why do you think this applies only to Burgers and Bible Software and not salaries? Why do you think it's crazy to pay $ 15 an hour for "a beginner's job?" Do you not know:
- Many people in those "beginner's job" positions are women (widows & single parents), college students, adults between jobs, retirees, young adults trying to stay straight (away from drugs & gangs).
- Utility companies, car dealers, clothing stores, food stores, apartment owners, gas stations, traffic court, credit card companies, sale taxes on purchases, toll roads, and repairpersons don't ask what level of worker you are at your place of employment when it comes to paying. Even Faithlife, doesn’t ask customers what level they are on their job when one purchases Logos Bible Software. The only Question is: Check or credit card?
- If more employers were considerate of its employees, there will be no need for the government to set and enforce minimal wages. Thank God for Bob, at Faithlife. He takes care of his employees, no walkouts or strikes there.
- A man is worthy of his hired--Just a reminder:
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Mike Barnes said:
The problem with this idea — which otherwise I would support 100% — is that Logos has always promised that program updates will be free, pretty much for life. That makes it very difficult for them to charge for tools like the Concordance, without a backlash from users. So what they've been saying instead is that program updates will be free, but you may have to wait to get them for free (and in the meantime you can pay for early access).
I'm still trying to figure out why anyone would want a concordance in Logos. If you want to find all instances "gumball" in biblical text (or any other text), all you need to do is run a search. Or … you can run a lemma search specifying the particular form if you want a particular form. In other words, WHO NEEDS IT?
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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Charles McNeil said:
Where is your compassion? You acknowledged that, "being in a society where costs continue to rise", but why do you think this applies only to Burgers and Bible Software and not salaries? Why do you think it's crazy to pay $ 15 an hour for "a beginner's job?" Do you not know:
Back atcha.
(1) Where is your compassion? Do you think that young people should be frozen out of the labor market because they lack the requisite skills to be worth paying a higher salary? Do you not know that when you raise the price of producing products or services that the cost to the end-user increases? Now that a hamburger costs 50¢ more and product x costs 75¢ more and product y costs $1.00 more, etc., etc., what has been gained? All you have done is require that the buyer and seller be able to count to a higher figure. Additionally, workers not directly affected by an increase in minimum wage are going to want more since they are surely more skilled than those filling entry positions. ALL PRICES RISE so that the status is the same except at a higher level.
(2) Who nominated the government to arbitrate what is fair and compassionate? Jesus never told the Governor of Judea to help the poor. He never told the Roman Emperor to help the poor. He told HIS FOLLOWERS to be compassionate. It is our duty as followers of Christ to show compassion to those around us. Go thou and do likewise. Don't try to slough off your duty onto the government. Government does a poor job of showing compassion.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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George Somsel said:
If you want to find all instances "gumball" in biblical text (or any other text), all you need to do is run a search. Or … you can run a lemma search specifying the particular form if you want a particular form. In other words, WHO NEEDS IT?
But the Concordance does more than that
It allows you to easily see where the resource you are looking cites other literature
References it makes to other literature
Where words only occur once (or different number of occurrences) filtered in various ways
and so forth
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James Hudson said:
It seems you have a lot of calls though, so yes I think charging for support is a great idea to enable you to have more cashflow to help pay your bills. I'm sure those who think that customers shouldn't get things for free will all agree with me too!
I agree.
I also think you Bob should charge for mobile app features.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Super.Tramp said:
I also think you Bob should charge for mobile app features.
I understand paying a fee initially for an ios app, for instance. And then some apps have "in-app" purchases which turn on certain features if the user wants them. Is this what you are getting at, S. T., when you say "charge for mobile app features"? Trying to understand what you meant.
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Yes, free app and then paying for the premium features. I could have said it better. Thank you for helping me clarify it.Juanita said:Super.Tramp said:I also think you Bob should charge for mobile app features.
I understand paying a fee initially for an ios app, for instance. And then some apps have "in-app" purchases which turn on certain features if the user wants them. Is this what you are getting at, S. T., when you say "charge for mobile app features"? Trying to understand what you meant.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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[quote](Serious question: Would you 'I have to own it' fans be okay if ownership really was completely transactional? You buy it, you get it as it is that moment. We disable server features, give 30 days tech support and then start charging $10/call, and you don't get feature upgrades or OS-related improvements to your mobile apps without paying an upgrade fee?)
I'd need some more explanation.
So lets say my computer crashes six months after I purchase CE. Would I still be able to download all the title from Logos? Would that be a phone call and 10$?
What about when I switch to a new phone? Or if I decide to also download and install Logos on my laptop, included (included within the 30 days?) or would that be a phone call and 10$?What about tagging? The value add logos provides fades as a book ages, and other books that weren't available become available if the tagging isn't being updated. We have seen complaints about this on the forums - such and such a book isn't tagged so that it can take advantage of this, that or the other book that have subsequently become a part of the ecosystem. What if tagging could be done in such a way that any time a new book is released, any other (overt) reference to the new book, inside old books were all updated all at once?
I'm sure that isn't better from your perspective. But its better from mine
I spend/have spent a fair amount on Logos. More even than I've spent on my home and car combined (and I own my car and house, but not the land... its complicated). I anticipate spending as much as I am capable of in the years to come. I have even subscribed to now recently (and like it).
Unless dynamic pricing becomes an option within rentals, I doubt that I will rent. Feels too much like being punished for ownership.
I get that its complicated. Still don't like it.L2 lvl4 (...) WORDsearch, all the way through L10,
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abondservant said:
So lets say my computer crashes six months after I purchase CE. Would I still be able to download all the title from Logos? Would that be a phone call and 10$?
What about when I switch to a new phone? Or if I decide to also download and install Logos on my laptop, included (included within the 30 days?) or would that be a phone call and 10$?Log in on the Logos site using your email address and password and download away.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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Under the current system, yes.
But what about under the system Bob proposed George? The system in quotes :PL2 lvl4 (...) WORDsearch, all the way through L10,
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George Somsel said:
Log in on the Logos site using your email address and password and download away.
In the scenario being discussed server features have been disabled so this probably doesn't work - hence the questions
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Graham Criddle said:George Somsel said:
Log in on the Logos site using your email address and password and download away.
In the scenario being discussed server features have been disabled so this probably doesn't work - hence the questions
Obviously Logos would need to make provision for this likely inevitable eventuality
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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Indeed, thus the questionGeorge Somsel said:Graham Criddle said:George Somsel said:Log in on the Logos site using your email address and password and download away.
In the scenario being discussed server features have been disabled so this probably doesn't work - hence the questions
Obviously Logos would need to make provision for this likely inevitable eventuality
Would I have to pay 10$ every time my computer crashes.
Would I have to pay 10$ to have my tagging updated (annually?).
Would I have to pay 10$ to install it on a second computer?
What sort of things that I take for granted now, would (under the aegis of the theoretical system) now cost me (a theoretical) 10$?L2 lvl4 (...) WORDsearch, all the way through L10,
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I could see asking a 10 or 20$ fee anytime someone wants to activate an old product code on their account (eg a l2 or l3 title).
L2 lvl4 (...) WORDsearch, all the way through L10,
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abondservant said:
Indeed, thus the questionGeorge Somsel said:Graham Criddle said:George Somsel said:Log in on the Logos site using your email address and password and download away.
In the scenario being discussed server features have been disabled so this probably doesn't work - hence the questions
Obviously Logos would need to make provision for this likely inevitable eventuality
Would I have to pay 10$ every time my computer crashes.
Would I have to pay 10$ to have my tagging updated (annually?).
Would I have to pay 10$ to install it on a second computer?
What sort of things that I take for granted now, would (under the aegis of the theoretical system) now cost me (a theoretical) 10$?I don't think so since Logos users would become jihadis. [;)]
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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George Somsel said:
(1) Where is your compassion? Do you think that young people should be frozen out of the labor market because they lack the requisite skills to be worth paying a higher salary? Do you not know that when you raise the price of producing products or services that the cost to the end-user increases? Now that a hamburger costs 50¢ more and product x costs 75¢ more and product y costs $1.00 more, etc., etc., what has been gained? All you have done is require that the buyer and seller be able to count to a higher figure. Additionally, workers not directly affected by an increase in minimum wage are going to want more since they are surely more skilled than those filling entry positions. ALL PRICES RISE so that the status is the same except at a higher level.
George,
I find much of your reasoning, most troubling. If this thread would allow it, I would love to respond with a somewhat different perspective. Until then, please re-read my post. You may have missed the point about the make-up of the beginner’s level positions (burger shops and elsewhere).
George Somsel said:(2) Who nominated the government to arbitrate what is fair and compassionate? Jesus never told the Governor of Judea to help the poor. He never told the Roman Emperor to help the poor. He told HIS FOLLOWERS to be compassionate. It is our duty as followers of Christ to show compassion to those around us. Go thou and do likewise. Don't try to slough off your duty onto the government. Government does a poor job of showing compassion.
As for the role of government in the Bible, there can be some clarification of understanding. If you form another thread or venue, I would gladly join you.
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Charles McNeil said:
As for the role of government in the Bible, there can be some clarification of understanding. If you form another thread or venue, I would gladly join you.
I'm right. End of discussion.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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Mark Barnes said:
So what they've been saying instead is that program updates will be free, but you may have to wait to get them for free (and in the meantime you can pay for early access).
Indeed if that were were that simple and true then that would be fine - the $9pm LN fee as 'early access' with the rest of us waiting until L7 (etc) would work for me. However, Bob/Phil have indicated that there is no guarantee that these features would be available in L7 (and probably some definitely would NOT) .
I'm sure Bob and his team could work around the issue you stated, since the LN feature set are alreadya premium feature set. The payment in my proposal would have to be carefully considered so that the payment for each feature would reflect the 'lifetime' nature of the feature together with the 'free' updates that may be needed if you have opted to pay for the feature. [I know i have not explained that very effectively - had a long and busy day - but in summary it is not an insurmountable problem - Bob could still keep his integrity and his promises!!]
Mark Barnes said:which otherwise I would support 100%
Thanks for your vote of confidence and support. Coming from someone who has probably taught me more about using Logos effectively than anyone else (and also designed the excellent SermonBrowser plugin!) that is appreciated!
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Bob Pritchett said:
(Serious question: Would you 'I have to own it' fans be okay if ownership really was completely transactional? You buy it, you get it as it is that moment. We disable server features, give 30 days tech support and then start charging $10/call, and you don't get feature upgrades or OS-related improvements to your mobile apps without paying an upgrade fee?)
Bob, as I understand correctly before LN we paid for L4/L5/L6Datasets/Crossgrade and those Datasets/Crossgrade were included in Packages for Gold Level and Up. Upgrading to L7 and paying for those Datasets/Crossgrade you would already receive from us $ needed for the upgrades (Concordance Tool and etc). Why would you charge for Datasets/Crossgrade and additionally for subscription? I feel it is like double charge. Could you raise the price for Datasets/Crossgrade if it has to, but give us the features which we would own.
Another proposal for cloud features would be to add LN subscription to Logos 7 package from Gold and Up until next release of L8 and then it expires if someone doesn't upgrade to L8 Gold and Up.
EDIT: Added "Crossgrade"
"No man is greater than his prayer life. The pastor who is not praying is playing; the people who are not praying are straying." Leonard Ravenhill
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James Hudson said:
However, Bob/Phil have indicated that there is no guarantee that these features would be available in L7 (and probably some definitely would NOT) .
I think the general feeling is that the community is willing to pay for features that require either (a) new datasets [which people expect to be able to buy], or (b) continuous use of Logos' resources/servers [which some people expect to be able to buy, but others are beginning to recognise may only be available to rent].
With regard to Logos Now, what's currently included falls into the following categories:
- Just code (therefore expected to be free eventually):
- Multiview
- Concordance
- Corresponding Words Visual Filter
- Passage Lists Visual Filter
- Requires a dataset (therefore expected to eventually be part of a base package upgrade)
- Systematic Theologies
- OT Propositional Outlines
- Greek Grammatical Constructions
- Commandments of the Law interactive
- Names of God interactive
- Confessional Documents Guide section
- Bullinger's Figures of Speed
- Requires continual use of Logos' servers (therefore expected to need to rent)
- Media Browser
- New Testament Manuscript Explorer
- Septuagint Manuscript Explorer
Note that these expectations aren't shared by everyone, and Logos have never promised things this explicitly.
But the point I was making was that Logos would find it difficult to sell items in (1) because that would look like a broken promise, and won't want to sell items in (3) because there will be ongoing costs for them. History suggests that they won't want to see those things under (2) because they'll want to bundle them into a crossgrade when L7 comes out. But my personal preference is that individual resources/datasets should be available for individual purchase for those that want them.
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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Mark Barnes said:
Requires continual use of Logos' servers (therefore expected to need to rent)
Mark Barnes said:may only be available to rent].
Not sure I agree that "only' available to rent HAS to be the only solution. [Although I did take note of your words 'expected' and 'may']. As I said, The 'lifetime' use of server should be factored into the purchase price by Logos.
Take, for example, a widely unreasonable and exaggerated illustration to show how it is POSSIBLE to have another way of looking it: If the buy-it-completely price for the NT Manuscript Explorer (which requires server usage) were $5000 then surely that would not require rental and would cover 'ongoing costs' as much as the $9 pm would do. Not that I am saying this is a reasonable price (it is deliberately exaggerated to show it is possible), but there must be a sweet spot price at the intersection of the supply and demand curves!
Again I repeat I am tired tonight and probably not as clear as I would like to be!!
I think I take your point about looking to be a broken promise for selling, but surely renting is charging for something?
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James Hudson said:
I think I take your point about looking to be a broken promise for selling, but surely renting is charging for something?
It's charging for early access to something that is likely to be free later on.
I agree with you that if Faithlife really wanted to make everything available to buy (rather than rent), I'm sure they could find a way of doing so, probably by promising that although they had no plans to remove the feature, they would only promise it would work for a certain length of time as a minimum (5 years?). That's still a big commitment in the IT world, however, and promises can sometimes come back to bite you.
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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Mark Barnes said:
It's charging for early access to something that is likely to be free later on.
Indeed, and Logos are happy with that! (breaking no promises). So under my proposal - it would be charging for something (ownership model) giving early access now (but owned) that is likely to be free later on. Same difference - just paying up front. Just saying that whereever there is a rental option there CAN be an owndership model (at a price!)
Sorry if I'm not making myself clear.
Thanks again.
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James Hudson said:
Take, for example, a widely unreasonable and exaggerated illustration to show how it is POSSIBLE to have another way of looking it: If the buy-it-completely price for the NT Manuscript Explorer (which requires server usage) were $5000 then surely that would not require rental and would cover 'ongoing costs' as much as the $9 pm would do. Not that I am saying this is a reasonable price (it is deliberately exaggerated to show it is possible), but there must be a sweet spot price at the intersection of the supply and demand curves!
An excellent example as the New Testament Manuscript Explorer is a Faithlife interface to the New Testament Virtual Manuscript Room i.e. that dat displayed is not owned by Faithlife. I don't know what the contract is but Faithlife may well not be able to sell it to us. Rather we would have to go through the INTF site and pay their subscription price.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Mark Barnes said:
But the point I was making was that Logos would find it difficult to sell items in (1) because that would look like a broken promise, and won't want to sell items in (3) because there will be ongoing costs for them. History suggests that they won't want to see those things under (2) because they'll want to bundle them into a crossgrade when L7 comes out. But my personal preference is that individual resources/datasets should be available for individual purchase for those that want them.
Mark,
If your conclusion is valid, it seems to put Faithlife in "a pickle", as they would say in Texas. Notwithstanding, changes are coming to the way Logos Bible Software Products are dissimulated. Logos products will be a paralleled of Ownership and rental (find with me) or a rental/ownership combination (this will not set well with long time/large library holders).
Fear not, Bob and his team are taking all serious suggestions into consideration in light of their responsibilities, reason, and longer time users. However, Faithlife will not give away the store nor will they fall on their sword for the fear of making future business decisions. Let us not lose faith in Faithlife. Becoming better acquainted with Faithlife, I am viewing certain decisions with new eyes. However, even this potential outlook, Faithlife is not beyond constructive criticism. I will reserve this right, as necessity requires it.
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George Somsel said:
I'm right.
You have been heard. Some may question that truth begins and end with you. Truth, doesn't need defending, it needs witnesses. “All truths are easy to understand once they are discovered; the point is to discover them.”
George Somsel said:End of discussion.
“Let every man judge according to his own standards, by what he has himself read, not by what others tell him.”
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Wild Eagle said:
Why would you charge for Datasets/Crossgrade and additionally for subscription?
Because the new datasets are often 'never complete' and need ongoing maintenance and expansion.
(Mark, this would be Category 2.5 in your list -- a dataset that gets continual updates from the server.)
The Logos Cultural Ontology Dataset, for example, initially came with tags for the Bible and a few other ancient texts. We've been expanding the tagging to other texts continually since then. It costs just as much to put another year of tagging into it as it did to put the first year into it.
The Bible was obviously at the top of the list, but the whole dataset gets incredibly more valuable as more and more obscure texts are added -- you can then use it to find cultural parallels and references that you might never have thought of. But while it's easy to say this dataset for the Bible is worth $19.99, (I believe that) it's hard to get people to make another explicit transactional purchase to add the tagging for just the Nag Hammadi Library; but as we add Nag Hammadi, Ancient Egyptian Literature, Legends of the Jews, etc. the dataset becomes much more valuable. (And it costs as much, if not more, to tag these texts as the original set.)
And it's never done -- we plan to extend the tagging to the Talmud, the Mishnah, the church fathers, Pliny, the Iliad, etc.
And this is just one dataset -- we're doing this kind of extension to many. It's hard to describe and offer each extension as something new to purchase, and logistically difficult to charge for these things. (Will some users have Iliad tagging and others not? How will tech support help people who don't realize they've only purchased four sevenths of a dataset?) We might end up holding a years or two worth of data to make the value perception high enough, which delays delivery to everyone, and still is complicated.
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Bob Pritchett said:
And it's never done -- we plan to extend the tagging to the Talmud, the Mishnah, the church fathers, Pliny, the Iliad, etc.
What follows is just a joke:
When I read that line I immediately thought that perhaps someone should misquote Ecclesiastes 12:12:
"And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many datasets there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh."
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