Sell me Logos 7 today!
Comments
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Bob Pritchett said:
We will continue to try to make Logos Now such a compelling offer that you give in and subscribe.
Bob,
Thanks so much for taking the time to explain it to us. I think the clarity makes all the difference. I'm very grateful.
Something went right because I did give in and subscribe. For now I'll take your offer and trust you to make it worth my while;)
As I've said before, I don't think you should acquiesce to every request made here but it means a lot that you listen to them.
For the record I'd have enjoyed buying Logos 7 before release just like with the journals. I've given in with Logos Now;)
Cheers,
John
גַּם־חֹשֶׁךְ֮ לֹֽא־יַחְשִׁ֪יךְ מִ֫מֶּ֥ךָ וְ֭לַיְלָה כַּיּ֣וֹם יָאִ֑יר כַּ֝חֲשֵׁיכָ֗ה כָּאוֹרָֽה
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Bob Pritchett said:
If you subscribe to Logos Now, you won't be 'punished' when Logos 7 ships.
That's not the part I'm worried about, Bob. I'm worried about being punished for NOT subscribing. With the advent of Logos Now, you've guaranteed that one group of loyal customers, at least from their perspective, will be 'punished' when L7 releases.
Bob Pritchett said:our own financial self-interest requires us to treat you well, because you did what we wanted!
What about those who did what you wanted *before* LN, to the tune of thousands of dollars? Is, "What have you done for me lately?" all that matters now? (Why is the user who has spend $10K on Logos less loyal than the user who has spent $600 and subscribed to LN?)
Eating a steady diet of government cheese, and living in a van down by the river.
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Bob Pritchett said:
Yes, we know some of you wish to never subscribe to anything, and we will continue to let you purchase things, though some things require online databases, or are hard to 'complete' and you're unlikely to be able to purchase them. We will continue to try to make Logos Now such a compelling offer that you give in and subscribe.
For some of us this may be more than a personal preference; it's simply that our circumstances make purchasing a much more attractive decision than subscribing. I suspect that's particularly true for users who are neither paid ministers nor academics. Under those circumstances purchasing each book or other resource is a much more discrete decision. There isn't a subsidized book budget, and routinely purchasing study materials on a regular basis isn't a "cost of doing business," so to speak, for a person's job. That may not be the market you're going after, which is fine. But it's one that can easily migrate to another platform if your business model moves towards requiring a subscription for using Logos to really make sense.
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Fr Devin Roza said:
This is a good idea.
One simple way this could be implemented is for Now subscribers to receive a coupon to purchase a v7 base package / feature crossgrade with a discount based on the number of months they were subscribed to Now. For example, a discount of $5 - $7 / month of subscription.
In that way one could purchase a feature crossgrade of v7 for almost free if you have been subscribed to Now for 2 years.
Really good suggestion.
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Also, once crossgraded, most if not all will continue as a subscriber because of all the benefits over waiting 2 years to use all the newest features and datasets.Gao Lu said:Fr Devin Roza said:This is a good idea.
One simple way this could be implemented is for Now subscribers to receive a coupon to purchase a v7 base package / feature crossgrade with a discount based on the number of months they were subscribed to Now. For example, a discount of $5 - $7 / month of subscription.
In that way one could purchase a feature crossgrade of v7 for almost free if you have been subscribed to Now for 2 years.
Really good suggestion.
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Bob Pritchett said:
Some of the reason datasets are in Logos Now is because they need online content. But an equally big reason you're leaving out is that many of the new datasets are 'forever incomplete' and being constantly updated. Yes, the data file may be downloadable, but we're updating it constantly as part of Logos Now. If we've tagged 30 books to work with a new guide section, we can download that database to your machine. But over the following months (and years) we're tagging dozens / hundreds more, and that's hard to sell to people. So we put it in Logos Now, where the subscription revenue funds ongoing tagging. This is a big deal to us in labor / expense / etc. that isn't obvious on the other side -- except that things just keep getting subtly better, and staying in sync with new content.
Bob,
I want to personally thank you for responding to the concerns in this thread. Despite my differences in the way Faithlife do somethings, I want to say, you do have a product worth developing and protecting.
With all due respect, today it's, rent "Now" and tomorrow, what's next...? Would users of Logos be asked to rent something else while still being owners of large libraries, in the future?
What about giving access to everything and rent the whole thing out by adding dollars to the present rent? Hey, the average person pays $ 50 to $ 125 a month for cell phone plans with two-year agreements. This is not too much to pay to rent full access to use the "best Bible Software on the planet." This will be worth it for the serious users (Universities, authors, students, Pastors, writers and researchers). This is not too much. Students have cell phones and they pay their bills. If people can rent houses, planes, boats, hotels, castles, cars, villas, studios, musicians, and whole Islands, why not books in Logos Bible Software? As for those who purchased large libraries, they can be given free upgrades of future development. If one can't sell that which needs to be sold, rent. It's just an idea for consideration. "Sometimes, new ideas are ugly and scary." Until next time, peace!
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This situation is untenable to me. I have been a loyal customer for over 15 years and I don't want to subscribe or rent resources or datasets and now I am finding out I will be "punished" when Logos has new releases in the future. This is a tough bullet to bite and I find myself looking for ways to survive the future of Logos. Not as much a complaint but a statement of where I find myself, not being a pastor, seminarian but a senior citizen on a fixed income, looking for ways to not increase any monthly payments.
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Juanita said:
This situation is untenable to me. I have been a loyal customer for over 15 years and I don't want to subscribe or rent resources or datasets and now I am finding out I will be "punished" when Logos has new releases in the future. This is a tough bullet to bite and I find myself looking for ways to survive the future of Logos. Not as much a complaint but a statement of where I find myself, not being a pastor, seminarian but a senior citizen on a fixed income, looking for ways to not increase any monthly payments.
Doc B said:Bob Pritchett said:If you subscribe to Logos Now, you won't be 'punished' when Logos 7 ships.
That's not the part I'm worried about, Bob. I'm worried about being punished for NOT subscribing. With the advent of Logos Now, you've guaranteed that one group of loyal customers, at least from their perspective, will be 'punished' when L7 releases.
Bob Pritchett said:our own financial self-interest requires us to treat you well, because you did what we wanted!
What about those who did what you wanted *before* LN, to the tune of thousands of dollars? Is, "What have you done for me lately?" all that matters now? (Why is the user who has spend $10K on Logos less loyal than the user who has spent $600 and subscribed to LN?)
This is my concern as well, why should i pay $,$$$ and then pay monthly to access to all features. Since release Logos Now, my spending decreased.
EDIT: I think one of the solution could be to add a different status to those who invested considerable amount in Logos. For instance, airlines use Elite Membership, where those members have certain advantages from regular users. I dont think its fair to pay a high package after every release an then pay monthly to have all functionalities.
"No man is greater than his prayer life. The pastor who is not praying is playing; the people who are not praying are straying." Leonard Ravenhill
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Juanita said:
his situation is untenable to me. I have been a loyal customer for over 15 years and I don't want to subscribe or rent resources or datasets and now I am finding out I will be "punished" when Logos has new releases in the future. This is a tough bullet to bite and I find myself looking for ways to survive the future of Logos. Not as much a complaint but a statement of where I find myself, not being a pastor, seminarian but a senior citizen on a fixed income, looking for ways to not increase any monthly payments.
To keep the purity of this thread, you may continue this discussion under the heading, ”To rent or not to rent, that is the question.”[
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Doc B said:
I'm worried about being punished for NOT subscribing. With the advent of Logos Now, you've guaranteed that one group of loyal customers, at least from their perspective, will be 'punished' when L7 releases.
My feeling exactly - I've spent a lot more than $10k and have a similar amount waiting in pre-pub. However, I like to own and not rent new features (and yes I'd be willing to pay up-front for them for keeps!). I've always kept up to date with the latest and best editions from the earliest Logos days.
I agree that I, too, feel 'punished' for my loyalty and hard cash paid to you. I've given up recommending Logos.
I'd be willing to pay a lot more 'up-front' to have the features of LN e.g. an elite payment of e.g. $2000 for the option to keep the features! I don't like paying for something that I would lose if I stopped paying (i.e. renting).
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Actually it does remember recently used templates.mike said:Bob...
I don't mind spending another dollar or two on Logos Now to make VISUAL COPY not so ANEMIC.
As of now, Visual Copy seems so weak. It suppose to saves time, but in reality it doesn't.
1. It doesn't have the ability to remember the last template being used. Thus it would take me more time to search the last template I've just used.
2. The scrolling issue. It so bad. That it doesn't give you the same consistent result whenever we scroll. It always gave different results. And it also repeats the results. Do give different categories or something.
3. We still can't change the font size, which is quite important for most of us. (Even the "other" bible app is able to do just that in their mobile app)
4. Still there's no favorites folder so we can use the same ones all the time.
5. Having just 1 (ONE) column is bad for choosing. Can we have 3 columns for us to see the templates please. 1 column = perpetual scrolling. Arghhh....
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I love you do the updates on the so "advance" features. But please .. Visual Copy needs attention.
Thank you.
What do you need to change the font size for? What would the application of that be? And in truth, you can change it by cutting out some of the quote and making a 2nd or 3rd slide.
You can see multiple templates as part of Logos Now in the Media Browser.
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Mike, thanks for the Visual Copy suggestions. Some of the things you are looking for are already in the works, and the rest we'll definitely take under consideration.
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James Hudson said:
I'd be willing to pay a lot more 'up-front' to have the features of LN e.g. an elite payment of e.g. $2000 for the option to keep the features! I don't like paying for something that I would lose if I stopped paying (i.e. renting).
Well, when Logos 7 ships you will be able to purchase it and then own it without future obligation. So we are giving you what you want, just making you wait (which is really the same situation that existed before Logos Now -- Logos 6 was years after Logos 5.)
What seems to keep getting lost in the conversation, though, is how some of the Logos Now content really isn't ever done, and thus isn't amenable to 'permanent' purchase. If I deliver everything in Logos Now in Logos 7 as a permanent license, A) I'll be 'punishing' Logos Now subscribers, and
you'll get some database that have partial coverage. And then two years later, when you're frustrated that a bunch of new books (or even old books that you finally purchased) aren't tagged/indexed/included in that database, you'll report that as a 'bug' that we have to fix (at no cost). And if our servers go down, you'll consider that a 'bug' we need to fix (at no cost). And if iPhone 12 ships and requires all the code to be rewritten... etc.So Logos 7 will be purchasable, but it either won't include some of those 'still under construction (forever)' databases, and online resources, etc.
I get the ownership instinct -- I have it myself about many things. But to be fair to us, most 'owners' of software have already changed their expectations of software providers: You used to buy software, get it on physical media, and know you'd get nothing but (maybe) a super-critical bug fix until you purchased an upgrade on physical media again. But today, almost everyone expects and demands that we support web-connected features, frequent fixes and updates, support for annually updated operating system and mobile device changes, etc. without further payment.
So the model has changed, but 'owners' are trying to only change it on one end: Our obligation to deliver is now ongoing, not transactional, but you want to keep your purchase transactional.
Now if you really are willing to pay $2,000 (!) for the option to keep the Logos Now features forever, we might be able to work that out. Because $2,000 divided by $89.99 (Logos Now annual price) = 22 years of Logos Now! Wouldn't you rather spend that $2,000 over 22 years at $89.99/year (earning interest on the unused balance!) than send us $2,000 now?
Which makes me wonder why our 'best customers' are so upset about Logos Now, other than because of an understandable (but, forgive me, maybe outdated?) attachment to 'ownership' in a world where all tech products are becoming always on, always connected, always updated. Because if you really do spend thousands a year on Logos content (thank you!), then $89.99 / year is a pretty awesome deal! And it will take a long time before that exceeds what you'd spend to purchase the equivalent over and over with each upgrade cycle, etc. (And remember, Logos Now is incremental -- it gets better every six weeks, and we're only six months into it!)
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I understand that software and the relationship of users to software programs has changed over the years. I am one of those who wants my program on my HD and usable at all times. While I am normally connected to the internet at all times, there are occasions when I lose my connection. I can also easily conceive of times when I might be on a trip and not have easy access to an internet connection (or may not want to use it due to hackers on public connections). My concern is thus that my resources are always available.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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Bob Pritchett said:
Because if you really do spend thousands a year on Logos content (thank you!), then $89.99 / year is a pretty awesome deal! And it will take a long time before that exceeds what you'd spend to purchase the equivalent over and over with each upgrade cycle, etc.
You talk as if it is one or the other instead of them being complementary. Do you expect everyone who subscribes to NOW to quit buying?
I think Faithlife needs to better clarify the difference between Logos NOW and Logos Cloud. It make sense for everyone to get Logos NOW. But Logos Cloud is only for non-buyers (ie renters).
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Thank you for your reply.
Bob Pritchett said:Well, when Logos 7 ships you will be able to purchase it and then own it without future obligation. So we are giving you what you want, just making you wait (which is really the same situation that existed before Logos Now -- Logos 6 was years after Logos 5.)
Brilliant! I would be happy with that, if that were true - you would not (if I understand correctly be gicing me what I want! The indication from this thread (and even explicitly later in your reply!) is that there is NO promise that Logos 7 will be on a par with LN features as there may (will) be some that won't make it in!
Bob Pritchett said:If I deliver everything in Logos Now in Logos 7 as a permanent license, A) I'll be 'punishing' Logos Now subscriber
Why? This doesn't make sense (??) in what way will people who are LN subscribers be punished - they are, in effect, renting to get the features now (rather than waiting for the next version. LN is for those who prefer renting! There seems to be no reason why these models can't be identical in features with simply the method of payment (and what happens if you stop) being different for different users.
Bob Pritchett said:But today, almost everyone expects and demands that we support web-connected features, frequent fixes and updates, support for annually updated operating system and mobile device changes, etc. without further payment.
Bob Pritchett said:an understandable (but, forgive me, maybe outdated?) attachment to 'ownership' in a world where all tech products are becoming always on, always connected, always updated.
This is a really important point which I clearly don't understand, because in my mind, I don't think these two are related in any way at all - you can still OWN software that is always on, always connected and always updated - I don't 'rent' Apple iPad apps but they are lifetime owned and I have many updates to do every day, similar for 'Chrome', 'Firefox', 'Windows 10' etc etc etc . All are always on, always connected and always updated. This has nothing to do with whether I own or rent them - that is a payment model not anything to do with being a 'being web-connected-or-not' model!
Feature set shoud not be related to how (the manner in which) I choose to give you my money!
Bob Pritchett said:Because if you really do spend thousands a year on Logos content (thank you!),
Yes and sometimes even a month! I love the range of resources.But yes I do feel upset and get a feeling of being left behind unless I am forced to go against my principles of ownership v rental.
Bob Pritchett said:Now if you really are willing to pay $2,000 (!) for the option to keep the Logos Now features forever, we might be able to work that out. Because $2,000 divided by $89.99 (Logos Now annual price) = 22 years of Logos Now! Wouldn't you rather spend that $2,000 over 22 years at $89.99/year (earning interest on the unused balance!) than send us $2,000 now?
Yes, I think 'lifetime' ownership model maybe an option you hadn't considered! I really am THAT much against the idea of renting!
And before I put this in my post, I did indeed calculate it ( I estimated 20 years!). Get back to me on a realistic 'one-off up-front, lifetime-updates-forever and non-rental' price and I'll see what I can do!
Thanks again for listening to one of your (now) 'second class' customers!
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James Hudson said:
I agree that I, too, feel 'punished' for my loyalty and hard cash paid to you. I've given up recommending Logos.
I'd be willing to pay a lot more 'up-front' to have the features of LN e.g. an elite payment of e.g. $2000 for the option to keep the features! I don't like paying for something that I would lose if I stopped paying (i.e. renting).
Is this a case of I can't live with Logos and I can't live without it?
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James Hudson said:
LN is for those who prefer renting!
I believe that it is Logos Cloud that is for those who prefer renting. Logos Now is more of a supplement for those who own a significant library.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:
Logos Now is more of a supplement for those who own a significant library.
- If this is true, why some with "a significant library" are upset to rent Logos Now?
- This "supplement" turns into L7 and /or remains a "supplement" for those with "a significant library" to rent after the release of L7?
- Those renters (Cloud users) get what's in Logos Now, too?
- What is it that cloud users are renting; everything, supplement, or something?
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MJ. Smith said:James Hudson said:
LN is for those who prefer renting!
I believe that it is Logos Cloud that is for those who prefer renting. Logos Now is more of a supplement for those who own a significant library.
Yes LN is a supplement. However it IS still rented i.e. if payment ceases you loose the supplementary features (regardless of how much you have spent in rent over the years). You have to 'keep up monthly payments' to keep the features - thus it IS renting! (Well, that's my understanding)
I have a fairly significant library (over 20k resources).
I believe Logos Cloud is a online web-based version on the desktop version. (Nothing specifically to do with renting - although that too is rented)
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James Hudson said:
Yes LN is a supplement. However it IS still rented i.e. if payment ceases you loose the supplementary features (regardless of how much you have spent in rent over the years). You have to 'keep up monthly payments' to keep the features - thus it IS renting! (Well, that's my understanding)
Correct. We prefer subscription or membership language to renting language. Renting often designates (1) a fixed pool for (2) a fixed period of time. For example, a student decides to rent a textbook from Amazon for 4 months. Subscription usually implies (1) a dynamic (growing) pool (2) indefinitely.
James Hudson said:I believe Logos Cloud is a online web-based version on the desktop version. (Nothing specifically to do with renting - although that too is rented)
You have that backwards. Logos Cloud is subscription access to Logos Bible software tools and content. The web app is available to Cloud and Now subscribers, as are the desktop and mobile apps. The web app isn't any more closely associated with Cloud than it is with Now.
On a separate note, I'm curious to hear from those of you who haven't tried Now yet if there's a price point at which you would? If it were $5 a month, would you overlook the fact that it's not permanent ownership and subscribe? $1? Or is price really not the issue? Is it more of a philosophical objection to subscription offerings? I'm curious to better understand the thinking of those of you who haven't subscribed to Now.
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Bob Pritchett said:
we'll price Logos 7 differently -- somehow -- for people who've been subscribing to Logos Now for a while and effectively paying for 'B' [datasets, etc.] already.
Thanks for clearing that up, Bob. From my perspective, as long as what you say here is the case there's no real reason for anyone to be against Verbum / Logos Now. [Y]
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Please ignore my post. I should know better than to post to forums when I can't sleep at 4 AM.
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Phil Gons (Faithlife) said:
On a separate note, I'm curious to hear from those of you who haven't tried Now yet if there's a price point at which you would? If it were $5 a month, would you overlook the fact that it's not permanent ownership and subscribe? $1? Or is price really not the issue? Is it more of a philosophical objection to subscription offerings? I'm curious to better understand the thinking of those of you who haven't subscribed to Now.
There is a philosophical and/or emotional element. We have invested heavily in owning Logos and really enjoy owning it.
The entire point of me starting this thread was to suggest subscription with ownership. The big problem with Logos Now is not monthly payments vs an expensive major version upgrade. Obviously I like the pricing of Logos Now. What I hugely dislike, what feels deeply gutting, what feels like a terrible turn in the way Logos is doing business is the idea that when I stop making the payments I loose access to those features.
I understand that this has to be the case for folks entering at such a low price point. I understand it for Logos Cloud. If there was only one 'perk' I would ask for prior big spenders then it would be to make the subscription also perpetual ownership at least of the downloadable content and features. Sure if I stop paying then don't let me download more of these databases but let me keep the version I have. Also keep the promise of the free engine going forward.
Is it reasonable to ask for this? I really feel it is. No I don't think it is the same as asking my green grocer to give me a free shopping hamper. (In response to Bob) I'm still paying for it.
I think you really should consider being a bit more flexible particularly with bigger spenders. Many shops do have special deals for special customers. Another example is that when Logos 6 came out I spent 2x the cost of the Gold base package on other books which I needed for my research. With those bundles I got no access to new features. Why not have a 'build your own base package'? It could be that if a user adds $150 of product to the cart it unlocks bronze features $300 then silver features and $450 gold features etc. Or keep it simple and discount the minimal crossgrade if bought with $300 worth of books.
גַּם־חֹשֶׁךְ֮ לֹֽא־יַחְשִׁ֪יךְ מִ֫מֶּ֥ךָ וְ֭לַיְלָה כַּיּ֣וֹם יָאִ֑יר כַּ֝חֲשֵׁיכָ֗ה כָּאוֹרָֽה
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Phil Gons (Faithlife) said:
I'm curious to better understand the thinking of those of you who haven't subscribed to Now.
I have not subscribed nor have I used my free trial month yet. I came close to subscribing last month when free books were being offered with an annual subscription to sweeten the deal. The main thing that stopped me was the thought of having to pay for datasets/features again when 7 comes out, or at least the ones that will be included in 7. I would rather put the money I would have spent on an annual subscription towards a crossgrade or base package when 7 is released. The comment Bob made earlier in this thread about some sort of price difference for subscribers when 7 comes out was encouraging. He said to trust him, and I do, but his comment came a little too late, as last month's offer has expired. Now that he has made said comment, the best way to get me to subscribe would be to offer another package of books that I could keep with an annual subscription, similar to what was offered last month (for that matter, make me the same offer again and I just may take you up on it now that I have additional information from Bob!). Today just happens to be my birthday. I already received my $20 credit (thank you!) and spent it upgrading a base package and buying some other things. If you want to make another sale, give me an offer to sweeten the deal and I will be onboard with a annual subscription to Now.
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Phil Gons (Faithlife) said:
On a separate note, I'm curious to hear from those of you who haven't tried Now yet if there's a price point at which you would? If it were $5 a month, would you overlook the fact that it's not permanent ownership and subscribe? $1? Or is price really not the issue? Is it more of a philosophical objection to subscription offerings? I'm curious to better understand the thinking of those of you who haven't subscribed to Now.
I'm willing to pay money on a monthly basis for features I will actually use to a non-trivial degree. (Features I will use in a trivial manner I am open to potentially purchasing outright, but not to paying monthly for.) Thus far, none of the Logos/Verbum Now features are ones that I would use to a non-trivial degree. As examples of specific features (that I already have access to) that I do use to a non-trivial degree, I give Collections, the Passage Guide, the Library view and Library search, and the Verbum mobile app. I would pay money on a monthly basis for those features, especially the app, if I had to. Now, if my computer couldn't run the desktop platform and the web app had a lot more functionality than it did now, I probably would subscribe to Now.
Realistically, Faithlife's best chance of hooking me as a customer for a year of Verbum Now is by running a promotion with free books for buying into Verbum Now. If those books (and/or perhaps a special discount on a base package upgrade) are worth to me the cost of Verbum Now, or very close to it, I'll sign up for a year. And in a year, we'll see.
I have no intrinsic problem with paying for a subscription service. But if I can pay $1/mth for x features or $20/once for x features, I'm going to go with the latter option (and it won't be a hard decision), because I anticipate keeping those features for decades of active use. In other words, it's a lot harder, but still potentially possible, to sell me on a subscription service than it is to sell me an enduring product.
“The trouble is that everyone talks about reforming others and no one thinks about reforming himself.” St. Peter of Alcántara
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Phil Gons (Faithlife) said:
On a separate note, I'm curious to hear from those of you who haven't tried Now yet if there's a price point at which you would? If it were $5 a month, would you overlook the fact that it's not permanent ownership and subscribe? $1? Or is price really not the issue? Is it more of a philosophical objection to subscription offerings? I'm curious to better understand the thinking of those of you who haven't subscribed to Now.
There are a couple reasons for me:
1. Logos Now does not offer anything critical for my work. I'm satisfied with what the base packages offer. I'll pay monthly for Netflix and my cell phone because they offer critical services, not extra.
2. Philosophically, I prefer to own books. Books are things that I use over and over again. Books are things that I want to pass on to my children. I don't do that with movies and tv shows (which I usually watch once and I'm done with them).
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SineNomine said:
Realistically, Faithlife's best chance of hooking me as a customer for a year of Verbum Now is by running a promotion with free books for buying into Verbum Now. If those books (and/or perhaps a special discount on a base package upgrade) are worth to me the cost of Verbum Now, or very close to it, I'll sign up for a year. And in a year, we'll see.
It seems there are two of us who feel this way. There is something comforting about the thought that no matter what happens with 7, 8, etc., those who subscribe to Now for a year get something out of it that they can keep forever. Even if it is something public domain where Faithlife doesn't have to worry about royalties, as long as it is something quality (subjective, I know) that I don't already have (which will be different for everyone), this seems like the best way to sell subscriptions. Maybe offering subscribers a choice of several SMALL packages of public domain works would be helpful. Or even better, let us choose 3-5 public domain titles!
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John Goodman said:
What I hugely dislike, what feels deeply gutting, what feels like a terrible turn in the way Logos is doing business is the idea that when I stop making the payments I loose access to those features.
[y][y][y]
Eating a steady diet of government cheese, and living in a van down by the river.
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Matthew said:
He said to trust him, and I do, but his comment came a little too late, as last month's offer has expired. Now that he has made said comment, the best way to get me to subscribe would be to offer another package of books that I could keep with an annual subscription, similar to what was offered last month (for that matter, make me the same offer again and I just may take you up on it now that I have additional information from Bob!). Today just happens to be my birthday. I already received my $20 credit (thank you!) and spent it upgrading a base package and buying some other things. If you want to make another sale, give me an offer to sweeten the deal and I will be onboard with a annual subscription to Now.
HAPPY BIRTHDAY! May God continues to bless you with health and understanding. Be a blessing to someone today.
Subscription (rent) to Now is set by Faithlife. What's low today, doesn't mean it will alway be that way.
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Integ said:
Books are things that I want to pass on to my children. I don't do that with movies and tv shows (which I usually watch once and I'm done with them). If Faithlife ever walked away from an ownership model, I would probably walk away from Logos.
Is this the beginning of the end? What is Now and Cloud? This has been answered to some degree. Can Faithlife have both (ownership and rental)?
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Doc B said:John Goodman said:
What I hugely dislike, what feels deeply gutting, what feels like a terrible turn in the way Logos is doing business is the idea that when I stop making the payments I loose access to those features.
That's the nature of rental or "subscriptions", this by design. Bob wasn't born yesterday. He's a businessman.
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Charles McNeil said:
Is this the beginning of the end?
There's no way to tell that for sure. Elsewhere Bob stated that the ownership model will continue for the foreseeable future. I believe him. But as the culture and market changes, Faithlife will have to adapt. It's possible that the current trend of subscription models will end, or maybe it will increase to the degree that it's normal for everything (cars, food, you name it). I'm not going worry about it though--who knows, my mind may change by then.
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Phil Gons (Faithlife) said:
On a separate note, I'm curious to hear from those of you who haven't tried Now yet if there's a price point at which you would? If it were $5 a month, would you overlook the fact that it's not permanent ownership and subscribe? $1? Or is price really not the issue? Is it more of a philosophical objection to subscription offerings? I'm curious to better understand the thinking of those of you who haven't subscribed to Now.
Some of all.
The primary reason I have not subscribed to LN is a matter of protest. I've spent a lot of money on Logos resources, and through L4 and L5, if a new feature was added, I got that feature. With L6/LN, the rules were changed in the middle of the game, IMO. Now you want more money from me to get what I was getting before which was included in the initial purchase. (There are a couple other things about FL that I silently protest, but won't elaborate here...payment plans and marketing hype, if you must know.)
A secondary reason is, I don't use any more than about 30% to 40% of Logos features. I've paid for all the stuff I don't want/can't use. Why would I pay more to get additional features I may not want or use? With the software getting more and more complex, I don't need additional features, and I don't need to stack a thousand more resources on top of the first thousand I've never touched.
A tertiary reason, which may be slightly related to the primary reason, is that FL has prioritized fixes and improvements to what we already have, and many (most?) of the fixes and improvements that I have desired are apparently "low priority". Additional features that look like answers to questions no one asked keep being added while items with lots of votes in the Uservoice area keep getting dis-prioritized, mobile apps continue to lag, and I still see a lot of complaints in the forums about quality control in resources. There's still no easy way to get in-depth help (the wiki is a mystery and the help file, while improved, is still sorely lacking worked examples). In fact, of the 60% or so of Logos that I don't use, at least half of it is because I can't figure out how to work that feature. My time is limited, and if it takes me an hour or more to find out how to search for a word, then that search isn't going to happen. If it weren't for selfless volunteers in the forums, I don't know that I'd use Logos at all. The other half of what I don't use is features that I have figured out, but just don't need. Buying stuff I don't need, even at a sharp discount is foolish and poor stewardship on my part.
You threw out $1 a month. On the one hand, I'd happily pay $1 a month to use Logos. But on the other, I've already spent thousands of dollars on it, so the $1 is not attractive. If FL had invested 10% of what I've spent, you would recoup more than $1 a month on interest. That's why such an insanely low number doesn't appeal to me.
JMO.
Eating a steady diet of government cheese, and living in a van down by the river.
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Integ said:
I prefer to own books. Books are things that I use over and over again. Books are things that I want to pass on to my children.
This is why I've never given up my paper library, and won't. People can make all the flood/fire what-ifs they want; if any of my books ever get handed down to my children or grandchildren, I'll wager they are the paper ones, and not the electronic ones.
Eating a steady diet of government cheese, and living in a van down by the river.
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Phil Gons (Faithlife) said:
On a separate note, I'm curious to hear from those of you who haven't tried Now yet if there's a price point at which you would? If it were $5 a month, would you overlook the fact that it's not permanent ownership and subscribe? $1? Or is price really not the issue? Is it more of a philosophical objection to subscription offerings? I'm curious to better understand the thinking of those of you who haven't subscribed to Now.
Phil,
Unlike the majority of users, I don't want or need any more features than Logos 6 already has. As for me, I probably should not have gone with the features crossgrade to L6 since at that point, I encountered "feature-itis"--I don't use the new features. So to pay monthly for LN means more and more features that I don't want, only to bloat my system. Books that I want and need I will buy and I don't need any resources that I won't use. What I would really hate is being forced to pay monthly just to continue to use what I already have and get things I don't need. That would be a great waste and I most likely could not do it with a clear conscience. I will be happy to do engine only upgrades in the future.
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Doc B said:
A tertiary reason, which may be slightly related to the primary reason, is that FL has prioritized fixes and improvements to what we already have, and many (most?) of the fixes and improvements that I have desired are apparently "low priority". Additional features that look like answers to questions no one asked keep being added while items with lots of votes in the Uservoice area keep getting dis-prioritized, mobile apps continue to lag, and I still see a lot of complaints in the forums about quality control in resources. There's still no easy way to get in-depth help (the wiki is a mystery and the help file, while improved, is still sorely lacking worked examples). In fact, of the 60% or so of Logos that I don't use, at least half of it is because I can't figure out how to work that feature. My time is limited, and if it takes me an hour or more to find out how to search for a word, then that search isn't going to happen. If it weren't for selfless volunteers in the forums, I don't know that I'd use Logos at all. The other half of what I don't use is features that I have figured out, but just don't need. Buying stuff I don't need, even at a sharp discount is foolish and poor stewardship on my part.
This is marketing, pure and (made to appear to be) simple. Understanding to use what I have in an updated manual is a desire that will never go away.
Doc B said:You threw out $1 a month. On the one hand, I'd happily pay $1 a month to use Logos. But on the other, I've already spent thousands of dollars on it, so the $1 is not attractive. If FL had invested 10% of what I've spent, you would recoup more than $1 a month on interest. That's why such an insanely low number doesn't appeal to me. JMO.
A mouth full indeed!
What's the real worth of Now ($ 1 or $ 8)? Is this is to get money from large library owners at any amount?
Even at $ 1 today, who's to say what it will be tomorrow? If renting (subscription as Phil Gons, prefer) Now could be established and remain at that price, Faithlife still comes out top with a dollar from approx. 2 1/2 million users per month times 12. The marketing department is working overtime. Faith life has the right to make money or profit and fulfill its responsibilities to its employees and creditors, but Logos users beware. In all your getting, get understanding and be temperance in all things.
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Phil Gons (Faithlife) said:
On a separate note, I'm curious to hear from those of you who haven't tried Now yet if there's a price point at which you would? If it were $5 a month, would you overlook the fact that it's not permanent ownership and subscribe? $1? Or is price really not the issue? Is it more of a philosophical objection to subscription offerings? I'm curious to better understand the thinking of those of you who haven't subscribed to Now.
For me it is simply I have enough on my plate with Payment plan and the occasional new PrePub coming up. One thing that also held me back is I do not want to go back on the beta stream, I know many benefits are being released now in the stable stream, but i had a couple of bad Betas that left me unable to use Verbum on my computer and since I do not have the space to have duplicate apps on my computer it seemed to me better to leave beta. I know there are lots of cool new features NOW offers including book previews (heck in the loan time of a book preview, i might diligently get to reading the whole thing.. although I also have more the fear I would get into it and it lead me to saying I want this, great for FL, not so much if I am trying to stay on a budget). And I can think of times when the Web APP would be most useful to me on my iPAD (assuming I had a solid internet connection, but I will say the mobile APP works ok for me for the most part and my real desire is a more robust mobile app with basic offline functions of passage guide with local resources and original language look up). The fault is not so much in NOW the fault is in LOGOS 6, in that it does what I want, I do not need WEB app, I do not need free previews, I can live without new features (I don;t use all the ones I have now). So the only way I can see myself subscribing to NOW is if I was told that OFFLINE mobile functionality would come quicker by doing that... That said if I had to continue to subscribe to use the more robust mobile APPS I likely would feel resentful...I have no real issue contributing to make sure greater functionality comes, but I do not want to see it limited to a new elite class of Logos users, in the same way I am sure a few of the Logos Now features will eventually settle down to say a Logos 7 (to say Proverbs explorer or RSV OT Interlinear are only Verbum NOW features that would never come to Logos 7 make no sense to me ). After trying to answer your question I come to the same conclusion. At this point Verbum Now is not something I need or want, $90 a year is not unreasonable, I just do not need it.
-Dan
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John Goodman said:Phil Gons (Faithlife) said:
On a separate note, I'm curious to hear from those of you who haven't tried Now yet if there's a price point at which you would? If it were $5 a month, would you overlook the fact that it's not permanent ownership and subscribe? $1? Or is price really not the issue? Is it more of a philosophical objection to subscription offerings? I'm curious to better understand the thinking of those of you who haven't subscribed to Now.
The big problem with Logos Now is not monthly payments vs an expensive major version upgrade. Obviously I like the pricing of Logos Now. What I hugely dislike, what feels deeply gutting, what feels like a terrible turn in the way Logos is doing business is the idea that when I stop making the payments I loose access to those features.
If there was only one 'perk' I would ask for prior big spenders then it would be to make the subscription also perpetual ownership at least of the downloadable content and features. Sure if I stop paying then don't let me download more of these databases but let me keep the version I have. Also keep the promise of the free engine going forward.
Is it reasonable to ask for this? I really feel it is. No I don't think it is the same as asking my green grocer to give me a free shopping hamper. (In response to Bob) I'm still paying for it.
Exactly!!!
It is NOT the cost (I am fortunate enough to afford many times more that $9 pm). I wouldn't pay $1 for the current model but would pay much much more (hundreds / thousands?) for the ability to keep what I pay for indefinitely!!
It is NOT really the philosophical issue (although as I said in a previous post - your stance that the whole software industry is going the subscription way is not true in my experience [It seems to be just two pieces of software: MS office and Adobe Creative Suite. Every other piece of software (including Operating Systems) are a pay up-front ownership model.] Although I am not for 'renting' or 'subscription' (same difference really) software - it's not that.
It is the fact that "that when I stop making the payments I loose access to those features." I suppose this is why I see it as a rental model.
Thanks for asking.
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Phil Gons (Faithlife) said:
On a separate note, I'm curious to hear from those of you who haven't tried Now yet if there's a price point at which you would? If it were $5 a month, would you overlook the fact that it's not permanent ownership and subscribe? $1? Or is price really not the issue? Is it more of a philosophical objection to subscription offerings? I'm curious to better understand the thinking of those of you who haven't subscribed to Now.
For me, I do plan on eventually subscribing. I'm watching the release notes regularly. The feature set just hasn't reached "critical mass" for me yet where there are enough new features that I'll be using regularly. There is plenty of stuff that I'd like to play with, but I don't have a lot of free time right now. So once there are several features that I'll use in my regular study and Sunday School prep, that's when I'll subscribe.
[quote]"...milking loyal customers..."
[quote]"...second class customers..."
[quote]"...punishing your best customers..."
[quote]"I've spent $xxxx, I should get yyy for free"
Please note that I didn't call out anyone in particular, but I get so tired of these types of complaints and rants of the forums. Yes, I've spent well over $10K on Logos over the past several years...but I don't feel in any way slighted by Logos Now or by Logos Cloud. I don't feel that I'm being punished for being a loyal customer. I don't feel that I'm entitled to a never-ending stream of free new features for any of my one-time purchases.
As Bob has pointed out (more than once!), there are ongoing costs for many of the features we use...even for people that "claim" they don't use or need online features. Updated resources, bug fixes, syncing of resources, mobile apps, etc, etc all depend on back-end data centers that have monthly costs. I've been in IT for 20+ years...most people don't realize how much expense is involved in maintaining back-end infrastructure for software, applications, products, and services that they take for granted. It is highly unreasonable to expect to pay once and have all the back-end features work in perpetuity without a continued revenue stream to support those back-end features.
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Ron said:
It is highly unreasonable to expect to pay once and have all the back-end features work in perpetuity without a continued revenue stream to support those back-end features.
What you have seen are the true feelings and expressions of people on the consumer's end. Faithlife, if not you, should take these remarks into consideration and mine them for better communications and customer services. Too many people, perception is reality. People that have invested large sums and many years have friends and deep and far influences. Satisfied long-term users are Faithlife's future and survivability. The people want to be heard with respect, consideration, understanding and with tangible changes.
Faithlife, open your heart and doors to users who wants to see the inner workings, to better appreciate the need for what you put forth. Money may talk, but relationships bring understanding.
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Charles McNeil said:
What you have seen are the true feelings and expressions of people on the consumer's end.
Maybe so, but these "true feelings and expressions" are often counter-productively expressed in the form of character attacks, name-calling, accusations of greed, etc.
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Phil Gons (Faithlife) said:
On a separate note, I'm curious to hear from those of you who haven't tried Now yet if there's a price point at which you would? If it were $5 a month, would you overlook the fact that it's not permanent ownership and subscribe? $1? Or is price really not the issue? Is it more of a philosophical objection to subscription offerings? I'm curious to better understand the thinking of those of you who haven't subscribed to Now.
For me it's largely that my circumstances make purchasing a much more attractive decision than subscribing. I'm neither a paid minister nor an academic. I don't have a subsidized book budget and my book purchases aren't a "cost of doing business," so to speak, for my job. Those circumstances make purchasing each book or resource a much more discrete decision for me. It's the difference between buying a new DVD when I can afford it, and signing up for cable. Over time you can build up quite a nice collection, without committing to yet another monthly bill. And, while your selection will be much more limited what cable offers, when times are tight and you need to economize, you can still watch movies.
Might I sign up for a nominal price? I might. But I'm not sure that a really low price would support enough additional content to make it all that attractive (thought I would absolutely love for you to prove me wrong on that).
I've spent what is for me quite a lot on Logos resources over the last few years. I don't mind paying for what I get, but I want to do it in a more controlled, deliberate manner that doesn't put me on the hook for a significant ongoing expense.
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Ron said:Charles McNeil said:
What you have seen are the true feelings and expressions of people on the consumer's end.
Maybe so, but these "true feelings and expressions" are often counter-productively expressed in the form of character attacks, name-calling, accusations of greed, etc.
[Y][Y][Y]
They are the feelings of SOME people on the consumer end. Some of us steer clear of these threads (and the Forums when these threads start proliferating) because we find the constant attribution of malign motives to everything FL does depressing and stifling. If some people spent half the time they spend on the Forums actually using the product it might help them and the rest of us.
Running Logos 6 Platinum and Logos Now on Surface Pro 4, 8 GB RAM, 256GB SSD, i5
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Phil Gons (Faithlife) said:James Hudson said:
Yes LN is a supplement. However it IS still rented i.e. if payment ceases you loose the supplementary features (regardless of how much you have spent in rent over the years). You have to 'keep up monthly payments' to keep the features - thus it IS renting! (Well, that's my understanding)
A stated truth.
Phil Gons (Faithlife) said:Correct. We prefer subscription or membership language to renting language. Renting often designates (1) a fixed pool for (2) a fixed period of time. For example, a student decides to rent a textbook from Amazon for 4 months. Subscription usually implies (1) a dynamic (growing) pool (2) indefinitely.
Come on, Phil Gons, you just admitted that using LN is renting. Please, don't pour a cup of water on my foot and tell me it's raining. Rent by any other name (Subscription) is RENTING.
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John Goodman said:
Why not have a 'build your own base package'? It could be that if a user adds $150 of product to the cart it unlocks bronze features $300 then silver features and $450 gold features etc. Or keep it simple and discount the minimal crossgrade if bought with $300 worth of books.
You're on to something. I hope Bob takes note of this. Seal the deal and send me and the time to start. People want to invest more inLogos, why stand in the way? Maybe, by Christmas?
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GregW said:
Maybe so, but these "true feelings and expressions" are often counter-productively expressed in the form of character attacks, name-calling, accusations of greed, etc.
You have a valid point. However, well trained and qualified customer service people know how to look beyond the "often counter-productively expressed in the form of character attacks, name-calling, accusations of greed", with discernment and meet the customers' needs.
GregW said:They are the feelings of SOME people on the consumer end. Some of us steer clear of these threads (and the Forums when these threads start proliferating) because we find the constant attribution of malign motives to everything FL does depressing and stifling.
Many people feel you have a choice of what thread you visit and how often you use it. They also believe Faithlife can speak for itself. They don't need defending. Besides, I am sure, they have their lawyers.
GregW said:If some people spent half the time they spend on the Forums actually using the product it might help them and the rest of us.
If "some people" are so easily annoyed by other people's usage of the forum, they needs to take the advice of "some people" by using" the product more, as "some people" recommend. "It might help some people" and "the rest of us."
As for me personally, I am OK, and "some people" are OK, too. Peace, to all of the people!
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Not sure what this is totally about but I find most of the features in Logos Now pointless and needless.
I wish developers would ask us what we all want and listen. For starters, a desktop that is useful and has devotionals/Bible reading plan that changes daily all in one place (without having to create endless tweaked layouts with filters, etc).
Make it easier to find things...like Locate all fiction ebooks for example - and make it possible to print the list please.
Lastly, imagine (here I go again I know!) that you are sitting in a Bible Study with others and just trying to quickly look up something even chapter, verse, passage, quickly and maybe something of use about it from one commentary even - say on a Budget Windows or Android Tablet - that happens quickly enough that the person next to you doesn't jump ahead of you while everyone was waiting for you.
How about a double-click the word and have it pronounced for you so the whole class can hear it...wow...novel wonderful idea, right?
7.0 should go back to the basics....call it easy-mode....or Bible Study Mode and work with us who want to use Logos the way it should be, not in some scientific way with little graphics you will never use or care about ever again in some Logos Now feature you paid extra for and do not need, but in a useful way please.
Rant over....blessings one and all.
Joshua in Rhode Island...who hopes 7.0 has an easy mode for the normal everyday common pew sitter please.
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JoshInRI said:
Not sure what this is totally about but I find most of the features in Logos Now pointless and needless.
I look at tools that I don't see how to use effectively as a learning opportunity. The more perspectives from which I can view Scripture, the more I can gain in understanding them ... the artist whom pointed out the unusual spatial relationship between Jesus and the woman caught in adultery, the fisherman who explained the task of inspecting and repairing the nets each time they are pulled in and the linguist who analyzed the perfect/imperfect verb relationship in a passage. They are all useful. The question is whether or not I will learn to hear them.
Sorry, JoshinRI, but your constantly harping on the need to simplify rather than recognizing that others find value where you don't, finally reached the point where it needed a response. One of the great things about Logos is that the complexity of the program in directly related to the resources you purchase. You can have a simplified Logos and power users like David Knoll or Fr. Devin Rosa or Mark Barnes or many others can have a complex program. Some of your ideas make sense for the broad market Logos tries to service - others need rethinking because they interfere with features others use regularly e.g. dictionary lookup. Keep on making constructive suggestions - just remember not to step on everyone else.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:
constantly harping on the need to simplify
Perspective, MJ.
Remember, you've been in the Logos world for many years, and have watched the program morph into what it is, and you are a 'specialized user'. Try to examine the perspective of an average layperson who buys into the software at the current time. It is overwhelmingly complex to that person, and there's still only iffy documentation for that user. (Even the wiki has stopped, or slowed, growing with the software.)
I think that was Josh's point. It is a valid point, and stating it is not "stepping on everyone else". I don't think Josh means (or even implies) that FL should turn off some of the features to make the software easier to use. I think he want s a more intuitive way to search. In another thread, a user expressed a desire for common-language search strings. I think he is asking for something like that.
Recently, I kept a forum reply to a search question as an example. Look this over from the perspective of a non-programmer layperson, and tell me this isn't complex-
When you specify a Morph Search like lemma:εἰς@C and then click on Bible, it is expanded as <Lemma = lbs/el/εἰς> ANDEQUALS <LogosMorphGr ~ C?> ---> after removing unnecessary stuff in parentheses! ANDEQUALS requires εἰς and the morph code for Conjunction to be at the same location (or belonging to the same word) So, if you want to know where "for" is used to translate a Greek conjunction you would use a Bible search like for ANDEQUALS <LogosMorphGr ~ C?>
Eating a steady diet of government cheese, and living in a van down by the river.
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