So...what would make you buy more books from Logos?
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Tony Thomas said:
Lower prices? Better libraries and bundles? More frequent sales? Just curious.
- Books that I definitely want to read/use immediately: Availability is the key factor, as long as the price is within 10-20% of Amazon, I'll buy them.
- Monographs that look as though they might be useful one day: Price — I'm looking for around $2-$3 per resource, but am very happy to buy in bulk to get those prices.
- Good-quality commentaries that I don't need right now: I'd pay up to $10 for these. Again, I'm happy to buy in bulk.
- Good-quality reference books that I don't need right now: I'd pay between $5-$15 for these.
- Fillers: I might pay upto $1/resource if I don't have much other expenditure.
So I guess that unless I want a very specific book, I'd buy for if I got discounts of around 75-80% for good quality useful books, and 95% for fillers.
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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MJ. Smith said:
This particular time the tone of the forum caused me to pull back in reading the forums and temporarily suspend the TIP of the day.
I am sure I am part of that tone and I apologize for anyone I offended, including you MJ. I am just so frustrated with the problems in my face that have been for some time. The people on the front lines are great - I wish guys like Bradley, Philana, Louis, etc. had more help/bigger teams. They have thankless jobs yet they do so much. It is the stuff I 'complain' about here that gets so frustrating.
I am taking your tip and freeing myself of this MJ.
This morning I unsubscribed from all the forums via email. Now besides 2 hour delays, I get duplicates, I get posts out of sequence. All this to cover up that anyone can sign up for a forum account with no approval, so spam runs rampant otherwise. That's a company policy, and sad we are affected. But no more for me. I will miss the community here, but you are right MJ, the bitterness and frustration level has increased. And I have been a part of that. I won't contribute t that anymore.
I have cancelled all my orders, prepubs, community pricing. My library is plenty big enough. I am sure I have been one of the top purchasing customers since 2003, this is probably a good thing. I will not be purchasing again. I will not feel bitter because FL doesn't even acknowledge my problems beyond the front lines, yet they take my money.
I have cancelled all the email lists I am on from marketing. No need for them now.
I have uninstalled Verbum on my Mac. Done. Too unstable, too many freezes, no one can find the problem. Many thanks to Ryan Gano who for awhile was trying to sort out the problem. Now it's fixed (for me).
I have closed Verbum on my desktop - I usually kept it open all the time. There I saw the Home page with gaps all over it, wondering why such a "first view" aesthetic like that is tolerated by FL. What a far cry from reading the insights of Jony Ive on user interface.
I had already deleted all my Visual Filters as the only way I could open a bible and use it without waiting for a 25 second freeze on a 4 core high perf laptop. I deleted all my prayer lists because Logos wouldn't do anything to encrypt our data on its servers.
I have adopted other ways to do things - for awhile, I have done clippings and notes in Evernote. What I really like is I can search, and the result comes right up! Amazing that Logos/Verbum can't show search results in Notes, isn't it? I have been adopting other ways to do things as well, and I have not realized it until I thought about it today. I will pray for, and worry about FL customers. I can't imagine what Verbum/Logos will look like in another year or two with a bucket of new features being piled into the product every 6 weeks. That's a strategy that can't work long term, but in the name of subscriptions FL will give it their best shot. I hope it works.
I have completely separated from the FL world, and it feels liberating. Good bye and good luck. While at times I was the gadfly for MJ because of my reaction to some of her posts, it is ironic and quite funny to me that her comment was what really got me thinking it is time to go away. And so I will. I wish I could have done it with the grace of Rosie, oh well.
If anyone wants to contact me, I will be notified through Faithlife groups if a message is sent through there (I did leave all my groups). I suspect no one will. That's ok, I probably deserve that. "A voice crying out in the wilderness" - it cost John the Baptist his head. I am far luckier.
Good luck, God's grace, peace and love in your lives.
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Thanks for taking the words out of my mouth and putting them on "paper". I agree completely with every point you made but two things in particular caught my attention.GregW said:I would buy more if...
- New books came to Logos more quickly. I've bought a number of dead-tree or Kindle books which I needed to read for projects, but which weren't available in Logos. Examples would be Chris Wright's The Mission of God, Fee & Stuart's Old & New Testament Exegesis, a number of books I had to purchase for an MA course I was doing, Tom Wright's 2016 Advent for Everyone, Richard Hays' Reading Backwards, several books by Jamie Smith, and a number of others. I am not sure Logos/Faithlife is doing a good job of checking for what seminaries and theological colleges (or at least those outside the USA) put on their course reading lists. I also wonder if it would help if "reading" books were initially made available with less tagging, and subsequently tagged up. I fully understand why reference books need greater depth of tagging, but a book that I'm just going to read needs Scripture tagging, and it would be helpful to have footnotes hyperlinked to the books they refer to, but not much more is needed for me to be able to read the book fruitfully. If it were made clear at purchase that it was only partially tagged, I'd be fine with that.
- Books from other, newer, theology specialities were available. I started an MA in 2012 which included a module on Practical Theology which has become a theological discipline in itself. Some academic theologians are a bit sniffy about it, but those of us who live in both the academic and pastoral worlds are engaged with it. Not one of the books I needed for the course was available in Logos or Vyrso.
- Books were made more readily available individually, rather than in bundles. I know that discounts are bigger on bundles, and understand why, but if I want a $20 book it's no use to me in a $100 bundle, even if that bundle is normally $200. I have been through the process of acquiring commentaries, lexicons, grammars, systematic theologies and original-language texts and apparatus, and probably won't be buying base packages or bundles in future, but do still buy several books every month (a reducing proportion of which are in Logos format), and many of these are available as part of bundles, but not at a price I can afford.
- More response was made to suggestions for resources on here. I hovered over the "Buy" button on A-Company's website today and very nearly bought the Carta set. These are invaluable for those of us who do significant amounts of teaching, as well as those who preach. It was only the thought of having to switch between applications that put me off, but if I eventually find they're not available in Logos, I will end up becoming a customer of theirs (I've already downloaded their Lite version, which means they'r enow emailing me), and will probably eventually buy other products from them that are also available in Logos, my preferred platform. The Carta resources have been regularly requested on here over a number of years, but nobody has responded (as far as I remember) to say whether they're in the pipeline, Logos won't be offering them, negotiations are on going, or Carta has an exclusivity deal with A-company. If we knew we could plan (or buy elsewhere).
- Logos recognised better that customers have a lifecycle. From Bob's posts on here I can see that this is beginning to be recognised, and Mark's thread on what people have bought year by year has helped. I first got into Logos when I needed a commentary for an Exegesis course that was never available in the library because everyone needed it. I bought it in electronic format (I was studying abroad and weight coming home was a concern). To use it I had to install Libronix software. Then there was a Logos deal going for people at our college and I bought the L4 Leader's Library. Once I became a pastor, I upgraded to Silver just before L5 came out, and later to Platinum and to L6 Platinum when L6 came out. I added some commentary series, textual apparatus and lexicons to make this into a package that made my preparation of teaching and preaching easier, as well as my academic papers. I didn't buy a L7 base package. Since then, I have bought only individual books or small sets as I cannot afford and do not need to do more than that. Logos marketing needs to reach out to people in my stage of the customer lifecycle as well as those building their libraries. I think that things like getting $35 of Logos credit for every $30 you buy if you set up a monthly subscription would be quite enticing to me.
- Logos offered a discount to people in full-time ministry, as well as academic discounts. I really appreciated Academic Discount when I had it, but I don't any more. A-Company offers a 10% discount for those in full-time ministry (as well as a number of other categories).
- Logos didn't make me search across Logos, Verbum, Vyrso, Noet and Noet Ebooks sites. I don't understand the rationale that some of the Counterpoints books are only available on Vyrso, while some are only available on Logos (see the first and second editions of Four Views on Hell). I wrote an Applescript in the end to enable me to search across all the Faithlife online stores in one go. Some of us drink from more than one theological fountain, and it is frustrating to have to try and guess which store we need. I'm a charismatic evangelical with a penchant for Benedictine, Ignatian and Celtic spirituality and Church History. That might be my problem, but I don't want to have to search in up to five different stores to find a book when one search on Amazon will get me the Kindle version.
I hate to disagree with some of the other views, but I'm personally not that excited by massive discounts in sales any more, although I am very pleased when a title I want is on sale. I suspect the lower levels of sale discounts have more to do with tectonic plates moving in the publishing industry than penny-pinching by Faithlife. I'd like to be able to get the books I need for a project at a reasonable price, at the time when I need them for the project I'm working on rather than two or three years after I've bought them in Kindle, dead-tree or A-company format. Sorry to keep mentioning A-company, and I'm not one of their fans, but I do think someone in Faithlife's Marketing team could do with spending an hour or two browsing their website.
In case this sounds like a complaint, I love Logos, use it every day of my life, am an enthusiastic Logos Now subscriber, and have great admiration for the way Bob engages with his customers despite the kickbacks he gets in these forums at times.
- Point number four: Over the course of the past two weeks, I too have downloaded the free Lite version of the "A" software, I too am getting emails now and visiting the A-company's web site. I too have hovered (multiple times) over the "purchase" button for graphics package that includes a Carta resource I want, but decided to first purchase a lower price map resource in order to play with and evaluate the software. Why? In part, for exactly the same reason as you (Carta) along with some other graphics related resources. For me though, an additional factor spurring my interest in the other software is the desire for a simple and fast way to access maps, charts, and pictures relevant to the specific scripture passages I'm reading, AND to have those map, chart, and pictures resources on my computer rather than requiring an internet connection. Also like you, I would really like to avoid the need to have multiple Bible apps open and would prefer to be able to have my study needs met within Logos. THAT is the only reason I haven't yet hit the purchase button for the resources in the other software. But I'm starting to think I'll have to bite the bullet and use the other software for my map related studies.
- Your last paragraph. I'm not a Logos Now member, but all else applies.
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Price: The publisher sells to large brick libraries. They sell for $2000 to a brick library with 2000 members. That is $1 per member If that was sold on Logos at the per member price ($1) instead of the per library price ($2000) maybe we would buy more books. We just need to convince the publishers to see their sales on a per reader and not a per sale basis.
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Anyone that's successfully stayed married knows criticism and feedback are all in the hearing. Demanding the frustrated one to distinguish is an exercize in sky blue vs baby blue.
Regarding books, it's true my purchasing has fallen off. But often I accidentally see volumes I didn't know they had. Some of the OT and hebrew collections were really interesting, but not the price.
I don't scan the NT one, since they always have an agenda, depending on the theology. Logos' NT library is tightly managed.
I did notice that for 7 years, the Logos resource page has been a complete zero for similar titles. But oddly, the checkout has a really good algorythm. I end up emptying my cart, and buying the suggested volumes. That's how I shop both Amazon and Apple ... the similars lists ... guaranteed purchase.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Sean Boisen said:EastTN said:
Much higher resolution images (charts, graphs, pictures, illustrations, etc.) in books. Unless I'm just doing something wrong, it seems that most of the graphic material in the books I have is quite low resolution. For me at least, maps, charts and diagrams are generally much less useful in Logos than they would be in paper form. That's one of my biggest frustrations. I've gotten to where I completely discount the presence of illustrations when deciding whether or not to buy a book, because I go into it assuming they won't have any value to me. And that's so unnecessary. With an electronic version it seems intuitive that you would have high resolution images that you could easily zoom in on.
In most cases, for third-party resources we're dependent on the resolution of the images that the publisher provides. The older the resource, the more likely it is that it's lower-resolution.
On the other hand, for media that Faithlife creates and publishes, we work hard to make sure the resolution is as high as is practical.
Thank you very much for clarifying. I appreciate that in many cases you are hostage to what you're given by a publisher.
I would suggest that you consider what can be done to improve the quality of images in the out-of-copyright works that you scan from old books. One example that disappointed me were the images from the Classic Studies and Atlases on Biblical Geography (7 vols.). I just went back to actually look at one of the images so I could articulate my concern more clearly. Plate number XII (The Tabernacle and the Temple) from The Bible Atlas of Maps and Plans is a good example. It doesn't seem particularly clear, and there are what seem to be some weird color artifacts. I copied it over to Paint and saved it as a TIFF file to see if I could determine the actual resolution. It looks to be 1940x1476. I'm not sure what that works out to in dots per inch, because I don't know what the original page size was. But in any case, some of the smaller type is very difficult to read (see for example No. 34 in the upper right-hand corner).
Anyway, please take this for what it's intended to be - a concrete example of an image I was initially really excited to see, but then found it disappointingly difficult to read. (I'm a bit of a nerd, and do like the fine print.)
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Don Awalt said:
It is the stuff I 'complain' about here that gets so frustrating.
You have a genuine problem with the freezes that Faithlife should address. I understand getting frustrated even to the point of taking a break from it - which is exactly what I would do although I wouldn't bother with the uninstall et. al. I found L2 and L3 so frustrating for their lack of handling the deuterocanonicals well that I took a multiyear break until Logos matured and I neared retirement. But it was worth coming back at least on a PC. Let me know when you're ready to give it another go.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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What would encourage me to buy more resources (besides more spending money)?
I have invested in Logos/Verbum/FL since the 1990's in order to build up a resource library for Biblical studies and studies in Catholic teaching/tradition. Over the years, I've built up a decent library which has become very useful in many ways. There aren't many more resources that I really need. However, to answer the question I began with...
1) I would buy resources that would help me round out my "Catholic studies" collection, such as: a commentary on the 1983 Code of Canon Law, a commentary series on the Vatican II documents, and the New Jerome Biblical Commentary. (I've ordered the New Jerusalem Bible on pre-pub, BTW.)
2) I would buy individual books from some bundles, like the Classics of Western Spirituality or the Paulist Press Church Fathers collection. Or, better yet, let me design my own bundles and give me a discount for buying a group of resources at once. I don't really like "filler", even when it costs next to nothing. I only want what I'll actually use.
3) I'd buy more resources as long as I can read them on e-ink as well as other devices. E-ink works better for long-term reading. Some people say that the iPad Pro is easier on the eyes than my iPad Air is. If that were the case, I'd consider upgrading and just using that. But, for now, e-ink works better for me.
4) Most of what I want to do with Verbum, I actually do on my mobile apps (iPad and Android) on e-ink). Enhancing the mobile apps would also encourage me to buy more resources. A few more improvements on mobile and I might not even need the desktop app! (Is that heresy?) [:O]
5) Beyond that, unless some "must-have" commentary came out, I'd be all set with what I have, and some of the stuff named above. For now, anyway, while I finish paying for my last FL shopping spree...
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I believe that Logos has multiple obstacles to overcome to create more sales and to expand their user base:
1. The Logos program is too big and bloated. I am writing this on my Asus portable laptop with a low-end Celeron processor and a 5400 RPM drive. I can't load Logos on this machine because it is slow and takes forever to index. With Logos, I have no choice but to load up all of my resources even if I don't want to. That means more resources to index and slower indexing times. As a result, on this machine, I use my Accordance and Olive Tree libraries. Both programs run quickly and easily on even lower-end hardware. I can also choose what resources I want to download. Why can't Logos make its program more scalable and faster on lower-end hardware? Virtually every other Bible app can run well on such hardware.
2. Logos seems to be intent on making everyone buy into its subscription model. I don't want or need a monthly subscription and am happy with the feature set as it is. Logos says that it needs regular income from each user to allow the company to defray its expenses. However, this is a problem of their own making. They chose to create a program that requires constant Internet access (and a server farm) to take advantage of its feature set. Most of their competitors created programs that can operate sans the Internet, except for updates and resource downloads.
3. They have created a platform with no easy low-cost entry path (unless you are on a mobile platform). Sure, you can download a free engine, but to get a package good enough for basic study, you have to shell out $300. And for that, you get an anemic collection of books. If you look at the competition and compare, they offer far more for less. I know Logos has indicated in the past that it isn't interested in entry level users since they don't pay the bills, that strategy no longer seems to be working. Many Logos users don't want/need the large, expensive sets and bundles that they are selling. Meanwhile, the competition is offering free software, and in some cases, free books as a loss-leader. They realize that, once people start using their software, they will be more inclined to update their libraries.
4. When I started with Libronix, they had a virtual corner on the market. E-books were a new thing. There was no such thing as Kindle, iBooks, B&N, Kobo. Publishers were willing to offer up their out-of-print back-lists for very low prices. Now that eBooks have taken off, they have found that they can sell their own books via these (and other) e-publishers and make more money. As a result, Logos has access to far fewer books to include in bundles. Most of these are high-priced, academic books and books that they are publishing under the Lexham Press imprint.
5. Logos still wants to charge a king's ransom for public domain works that are available for much less elsewhere. There is a huge market for public domain books, especially Puritan literature. They are missing out on a market that could bring in additional incremental income as well as offer in low-cost packages that will attract new users.
6. Little progress has been made on their web apps, even though Chromebook/Web-book use is expanding and that may be something people are willing to pay a subscription fee for if the price was right.
Director of Zoeproject
www.zoeproject.com
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Very well said Tony Thomas [Y]
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Tony Thomas said:
5. Logos still wants to charge a king's ransom for public domain works that are available for much less elsewhere. There is a huge market for public domain books, especially Puritan literature. They are missing out on a market that could bring in additional incremental income as well as offer in low-cost packages that will attract new users.
I have a feeling Tony's point here will be one of the most underrated comments in the thread. First, I think it's embarrassing how much Logos charges for PD works outside of CP. The prices are fair in CP and mind-boggling otherwise. Second, I own the Reformation Bookshelf and the Puritan Bookshelf, and it shocks me how little of this material is in Logos. They're all PD works and many of them are coveted, but a lot is missing. For instance, I would have loved to have Joseph Caryl's commentary on Job in Logos (with all the tagged goodness), but I still have to find a lot of resources outside Logos. If FL were shrewd, they could easily use high quality PD packages (e.g. Matthew Henry) to offer really good entry level Base Packages for less than $100. Instead, they charge as much for these books as newly published material that requires them to pay royalties. I can't help but feel like it's used as Base Package filler to justify the high prices.
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Tony Thomas said:
The Logos program is too big and bloated.
Could you give some examples of what you consider to be "bloat"?
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Not only are the majority of PD works priced at a high premium, but often times when they are put on sale like Spurgen's Treasury of David it is priced out to a level making it more expensive to buy than the regular set price. I have never seen in any store anything other than a 3 volume edition... but faithlife has it as a 6 volume. I considered getting it in march madness sale, but the cost was i believe $9 more than the regular price. I have got a few classic commentary sets but found the majority of works in the sets i got to be of little worth to me... Many older works have great value but others seem rather pointless.
Here is a good example of a PD book I have found of limited value:
PSALM 1
Ver. 1. —— “in the counsel.” Rather, —— “after the counsel.”
Ver. 4. —— “like the chaff which the wind driveth away.” This allusion describes the instability of the principles of the ungodly, rather than of their fortunes. Their want of principle is opposed to the good man’s steady meditation of Jehovah’s law, which is the foundation of his prosperity. On the other hand, because the ungodly want this principle, therefore they shall not stand in the judgment.
Ver. 5. —— “in the judgment.” The judgment here intended is evidently the last judgment, and the congregation of the righteous is their assembly at the tribunal of Christ at the last day. “The ungodly shall not stand,” i. e. they shall not be established in this judgment, nor have a place assigned them among the just. And to this effect Bishop Hare, “לא יקמו videtur sensu forensi sumendum, ut Latinis stare et causâ cadere.”
Ver. 6. “For the Lord knoweth the way—” rather, “For Jehovah attendeth to the way,” i. e. to the fortunes. דרך is used variously, either for the course of a man’s fortunes, or the course of his morals. The former, I think, is the sense here.
Samuel Horsley, The Book of Psalms; Translated from the Hebrew: With Notes, Explanatory and Critical, Fourth Edition (London: Longman, Brown, Green, and Longmans; F. & J. Rivington, 1845), 191.
I know in many older works you can find a lot of wisdom, but sometimes if feels like FL just said lets get everything we can good or bad....
-Dan
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I don't think anything particular is wrong with Logos. The program is getting better, but you still need a decent computer run it full out. None of my gear is optimum but L7 runs ok.
What would make me buy more books? Money. There's just a few things I'm waiting on and I need to finish paying off one package.
In some ways, building one's library tends to be a diminishing effort. At some point, you just can't find enough reason to add resources. Even good ones at a great price.
The mind of man is the mill of God, not to grind chaff, but wheat. Thomas Manton | Study hard, for the well is deep, and our brains are shallow. Richard Baxter
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Tony Thomas said:
Lower prices? Better libraries and bundles? More frequent sales? Just curious.
I can't add a great deal, but I can support what has been said. Nothing below is really original, but to answer the question, I'd buy more if there was...
1) ...anything but bundles...when I started with Logos, I drank the kool-aid that said buying a big bundle at greatly reduced prices to get a handful of resources you wanted was a good idea. I've since grown a few brain cells. Stop putting $10 or $30 resources into $100 or $1000 bundles and leaving them there for years. (And likewise, don't bury new features in a 'full feature set' when 90% of the stuff is unneeded and unwanted.)
2) ...real sales, like we used to see.
3) ...something other than second-class citizen status for the non-Logos-Now folks (like me). That whole thing makes me angry at FL and angry customers don't tend to give you their money.
4) ...more effort to make the software work right before new versions come out. This includes both bugs and non-working features as well as better response to the UserVoice requests. Stop introducing novelties and get what is there working better and make the various searches more accessible to non-professional users.
5) ...commitment to the mobile apps, particularly the iPad app. Tie into this something like the "send to Kindle" feature that we had and lost.
I hope this doesn't sound overly critical or personal. I'm simply trying to answer the question, because the implication that my purchasing has dropped off is valid.
Eating a steady diet of government cheese, and living in a van down by the river.
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Tony Thomas said:
I believe that Logos has multiple obstacles to overcome to create more sales and to expand their user base
I think that was an excellent analysis. I would add one thing: lack of development of the mobile apps. They've pretty much written them off as far as I can tell, and this is very unfortunate.
Eating a steady diet of government cheese, and living in a van down by the river.
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MJ. Smith said:Tony Thomas said:
The Logos program is too big and bloated.
Could you give some examples of what you consider to be "bloat"?
1. The fact that I have to load gigabytes worth of resources to be able to use the program.
2. The length of time it takes to boot the program and begin working. It is sometimes minutes!
3. The need to run a complete index every time a resource is added or updated.
4. Datasets that must be bought for complete upgrades even when many customers don't want/need them.
Director of Zoeproject
www.zoeproject.com
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Thank you - you were using bloat in a different sense than I thought so it now makes perfect sense.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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For me like many others, it must be something I really need or want strongly.
I am very thankful for the Library I do have, with all that L6 & L7 added and also after getting all of WBC during the last sale.
After looking at all of the new Logos 7 Library Expansion sets, I have not found a real must have. And I end up asking most times do I really need or want to get any of them. The answer so far has been no. The long wait for the expansion was to long for to little.
I look at any other commentary strongly take for example the MacArthur NTC if you buy the complete 33 vol set you get a 20% discount, but if you only wanted one volume then you must pay full price; for this reason I will not think of buying any of the set.
When first became a Logos 4 customer I looked at Logos as a great Bible software company with a great product, and for this reason I was willing to pay for Logos resources.
With all that Logos / Faithlife is doing now, I have started seeing them as more of a "jack of all trades, and Master of None". I don't want to see Logos lose the main focus of what made the a great company in the first place.
When I buy any resource from Logos, I expect it to be updated and tagged correctly and not just an ebook.
L4 BS, L5 RB & Gold, L6 S & R Platinum, L7 Platinum, L8 Baptist Platinum, L9 Baptist Platinum, L10 Baptist Silver
2021 MacBook Pro M1 Pro 14" 16GB 512GB SSD, running MacOS Monterey iPad Mini 6, iPhone 11.0 -
Again, I hope that Bob, Dan and the rest of the Logos team read this thread. There is some good, actionable, feedback here.
Director of Zoeproject
www.zoeproject.com
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Considering today's sale, I think I can illustrate a situation that has stopped me from buying books and courses. In one word, "timing."
I really appreciate Mobile Ed, but really can't afford the regular course prices. Being relatively new to Logos, I missed out on a lot of pre-pub offers (~40% off) for courses that have already been published.
Logos held a 35% off sale earlier this fall. I was very interested in the one particular course, but it used some WBC commentaries (which weren't on sale, and weren't eligible for dynamic pricing). I passed on getting that course, as I didn't want to buy four commentary volumes at full price, and also lose out on dynamic pricing.
Now, the WBC volumes are on sale, but the course isn't.
If I knew the WBC volumes were going on sale a month or so later, I'd have bought the course. Now I'm in the opposite position of hoping the course will go on sale again, which I'm sure it eventually will!
I'm very thankful and appreciative for the opportunity to get an education within Logos, but I also know I've had to pass up opportunities (purchases) because either a course or its resource(s) were overpriced.
I don't mind being patient and waiting for a sale. But for Mobile Ed, you need to buy more than the course, or you miss out on copious recommended reading, which is where I tend to discover and learn the most.
Please offer more discounted bundles (such as what you've just done this month with HB101 and its textbook). Thanks!
Thanks to FL for including Carta and a Hebrew audio bible in Logos 9!
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PetahChristian said:
In one word, "timing."
It would be nice if they gave you a special, one time use, discount code for resources used in a Mobile Ed course when you buy the course itself. I understand that they may have to send it to you after the time for returns has expired.
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Tony Thomas said:
3. They have created a platform with no easy low-cost entry path (unless you are on a mobile platform). Sure, you can download a free engine, but to get a package good enough for basic study, you have to shell out $300. And for that, you get an anemic collection of books. If you look at the competition and compare, they offer far more for less. I know Logos has indicated in the past that it isn't interested in entry level users since they don't pay the bills, that strategy no longer seems to be working. Many Logos users don't want/need the large, expensive sets and bundles that they are selling. Meanwhile, the competition is offering free software, and in some cases, free books as a loss-leader. They realize that, once people start using their software, they will be more inclined to update their libraries.
A very concrete way to put this might be - "Create an affordable gift package that I could give someone to introduce them to Logos." A recent blog post suggests that we can "Give the Gift of Bible Study This Christmas." But the page it links to only lists individual books. One or two books are of limited value without the whole "ecosystem" - but they really can't suggest giving one of the base packages, because they're too expensive. Let's face it - I'm highly unlikely to give someone a $300 base package unless 1) they are very near and dear to me, and 2) I'm very sure they'll actually use and enjoy it. On the other hand, there are a couple of people that I would likely give an under $100 package if there was enough to it that I thought their reaction would be "this is nice! I'm going to get some real use out of it." (The package wouldn't have to be huge, but it would have to be genuinely useful.) As it stands, the suggestion of giving a Logos gift really doesn't work for me.
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Doc B said:
when I started with Logos, I drank the kool-aid that said buying a big bundle at greatly reduced prices to get a handful of resources you wanted was a good idea. I've since grown a few brain cells.
If your reason for buying bundles was just to "get a handful of resources you wanted" then I am glad you have "grown a few brain cells."
There are other, logical, reasons to buy the largest, most economical, specialized bundles. My reason happens to be I am building a reference library. Reference libraries are not primarily for reading. But with the search features of the Logos software I can "read" all 51,838 of the resources in my library every time I hit the enter key. This makes for a great research tool. I don't think it is a bad investment.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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"So...what would make you buy more books from Logos?" In the spirit of Christmas I would like to rephrase the question. What would make you buy ME more books from Logos? Just curious. What would it take [;)]
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The timing of the current sales, extensions, new base packages and pre-pub release means that it is inevitable that many of us will have to compromise.
I look at my wish list for items that I have identified as as desirable at some point rather than (or alongside) the headline discount ... the problem is two-fold with the wish list ...
- What is on sale ... most that 'appears' to be on sale is not!!! It is simply not easy to determine those bundles/collections that are on sale from those that are simply full price but partly owned.
- My wish is not up to date ... that is I can always prune it but it does not include any items that I spotted on pre-pub but either could not afford at the time, or felt that the initial commitment was not worth the saving. Many of these resources are now live ... but I do not know which ones! I would be able to keep a better track of those resources that I would like if I could add pre-pubs to a wish list.
2017 15" MBP, iPad Pro
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Lord, please bring the US and Australian dollar back to something that at least resembles parity...
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I had to cancel a few of my CP / Prepub orders this month due to budget constraints. I will miss the CP on Judges Mobile Ed.
I would like the option of extending the invoicing / shipping of CP / PrePubs for up to 60 days. My experience has been that I have a week to 10 days notice on ship dates. Sometimes I can't adjust my budget to cover within this time frame.
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Tony, I cannot disagree with a single one of your points.Tony Thomas said:MJ. Smith said:Tony Thomas said:The Logos program is too big and bloated.
Could you give some examples of what you consider to be "bloat"?
1. The fact that I have to load gigabytes worth of resources to be able to use the program.
2. The length of time it takes to boot the program and begin working. It is sometimes minutes!
3I . The need to run a complete index every time a resource is added or updated.
4. Datasets that must be bought for complete upgrades even when many customers don't want/need them.
I only upgraded for the book packages that go along with upgrading to a new Logos upgrade. There was not really any of the new features that interested me. Part of that may be that I am just a grumpy old man, 40 plus years out of seminary, and I like the way I study now. I certainly am not interested in having the program do more interpretive analysis of the text. There is a point where the bells and whistles start to annoy me.
Having used Logos Bible Software for 20+ years now (whenever Bob bought the rights to CDWORD's library), I would have thought they would have made more progress on the issues you mention by now.
"In all cases, the Church is to be judged by the Scripture, not the Scripture by the Church," John Wesley0 -
I get the feeling, had the L7, collections (anyone remember??), or Christmas sale been really good, the Logos' challenges (ok, failings) would have remained under the rug another year. My guess is that's how the L4-6 proceeded.
There seems to be bunches of Logosians presently/formerly in the computer arena, and no doubt have pondered these issues. Plus retail folks. I'd bet only small tinkering is feasible, due to 2 issues: the early choice of platform to replace MS (coding intensive), and an high-cost delivery archetecture (complete with on-PC indexing).
It's certainly pretty software. But each iteration (now, sped up by Now) translates to increased customer confusion, and frustration. People now searching for value.
I know people don't want to hear it, but Libby is snappy, I choose what's in her library. She's missing tons of datasets and I don't notice. She is a bit confusing. And her searches are eminently terrible ... though I suppose, if Accordance can do snappy searches, Libby could have to.
I think I'd buy Libby's code, shift the platform, fix the search, and hook it up to the Logos library for purchase. Accordance on steroids.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Denise said:
... I know people don't want to hear it, but Libby is snappy, I choose what's in her library. She's missing tons of datasets and I don't notice. She is a bit confusing. And her searches are eminently terrible ...
Well, that's the challenge in designing any complex product. Some folks need/want a snappy little convertible, some folks need/want a pickup truck, and some folks need/want a mini-van. It's hard to make everyone happy with one product. Sometimes it feels to me like Logos is building an atomic bulldozer of a Bible-study program. The power is exhilarating, but learning to drive it can be a bear.
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Excellent, EastTN. Atomic bulldozer!
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Thinking more globally, I would like to see FL really open up the Logos API and promote third party apps. That would be a real test of the value of Logos and the desirability of further investment by it's users.
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One of my primary concerns-one that is starting to affect my purchasing decisions--is along these lines. I.e., when I first bought into Libronix, it was because the resources were advertised as using a new standardized format that I understood could be read by several Bible software companies that had agreed to use the format.Rob said:Thinking more globally, I would like to see FL really open up the Logos API and promote third party apps. That would be a real test of the value of Logos and the desirability of further investment by it's users.
As it stands now, the only way I can access the thousands of resources in my library is via Logos, so if anything goes amuck there, I'm totally hosed. I won't even be able to "read" the resources, let alone leverage them via a Bible software app. I certainly wish the best for Faithlife in general and Logos in particular, but regarding purchases, I think I'm approaching a threshold in regard to how much I'm willing to invest on resources that have a proprietary format with no format conversion option. [:S]
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Rick Ausdahl said:
One of my primary concerns-one that is starting to affect my purchasing decisions--is along these lines. I.e., when I first bought into Libronix, it was because the resources were advertised as using a new standardized format that I understood could be read by several Bible software companies that had agreed to use the format.Rob said:Thinking more globally, I would like to see FL really open up the Logos API and promote third party apps. That would be a real test of the value of Logos and the desirability of further investment by it's users.
As it stands now, the only way I can access the thousands of resources in my library is via Logos, so if anything goes amuck there, I'm totally hosed. I won't even be able to "read" the resources, let alone leverage them via a Bible software app. I certainly wish the best for Faithlife in general and Logos in particular, but regarding purchases, I think I'm approaching a threshold in regard to how much I'm willing to invest on resources that have a proprietary format with no format conversion option.
This says it all. Very well written.
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Rick Ausdahl said:
As it stands now, the only way I can access the thousands of resources in my library is via Logos, so if anything goes amuck there, I'm totally hosed.
Thankful for many Logos features that work well without an Internet connection. Personally have a MacBook Air with stable Logos, which is primarily used offline (periodically connect online for program and resource updates).
Caveat: if computers become unusable (lack of electricity or magnetic pulse), then all Bible software is afflicted,
Personally dreaming of "Gem" => Suggestion: "Gem" superset of Base Packages (along with God's calling in my life for work that glorifies Him so can pay for "Gem")
Keep Smiling [:)]
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Rick Ausdahl said:
when I first bought into Libronix, it was because the resources were advertised as using a new standardized format that I understood could be read by several Bible software companies that had agreed to use the format.
I'd been dreaming of the day when you could buy a resource from any bible software company, and use it in your preferred program, and now I find out that day already came and went.
It's a shame that office programs can read a different manufacturer's word processing or spreadsheet documents, but bible study software won't.
(I'm happy with the Logos program, but would prefer to buy less expensive editions of a resource from other companies to use within Logos. High cost of resources, including PD works, really hinders what I can afford to buy.)
Thanks to FL for including Carta and a Hebrew audio bible in Logos 9!
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PetahChristian said:
I'd been dreaming of the day when you could buy a resource from any bible software company, and use it in your preferred program, and now I find out that day already came and went.
This is the point of reference when a major change took place from L3 to L4. It really stunned me after investing in a philosophy that I really felt was good (Libronix). So many were left in shock that Bob eventually came out with the reasoning which seemed logical at least at the time. Yet still disappointing. That being said, the program as it stands in L7 is really wonderful. But the let down that occurred with the change in L4 and other let downs since...I suppose if a book were to be written on the Faithlife story, at least from a customer standpoint, that change was THE big one.
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Very well said Rick Ausdahl
[Y]
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PetahChristian said:Rick Ausdahl said:
when I first bought into Libronix, it was because the resources were advertised as using a new standardized format that I understood could be read by several Bible software companies that had agreed to use the format.
I'd been dreaming of the day when you could buy a resource from any bible software company, and use it in your preferred program, and now I find out that day already came and went.
It already came and went, but it wasn't Libronix. (Libronix books were never advertised as being usable within other software programs.)
The book format that could be used in multiple programs was STEP: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/STEP_Library. It was never supported by Logos.
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Rick Ausdahl said:
As it stands now, the only way I can access the thousands of resources in my library is via Logos, so if anything goes amuck there, I'm totally hosed. I won't even be able to "read" the resources, let alone leverage them via a Bible software app. I certainly wish the best for Faithlife in general and Logos in particular, but regarding purchases, I think I'm approaching a threshold in regard to how much I'm willing to invest on resources that have a proprietary format with no format conversion option.
If something ever happens to the company, I and others will work to reverse engineer the resource structure and encryption so that we can all free our resources. I don't do it now because I want to respect the license, but won't feel beholden to anyone if the company were to fold. I've taken a little peek, and the relatively easy part will be unlocking the encryption. The tougher part will be making use of the proprietary logos format. But we'll work to make sure nobody loses their investment.
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It already came and went, but it wasn't Libronix. (Libronix books were never advertised as being usable within other software programs.)
The book format that could be used in multiple programs was STEP: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/STEP_Library. It was never supported by Logos.
STEP was one program. But Libronix was another: http://www.libronix.com/page.aspx?id=techpartners0
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Bradley, thanks for commenting.Rick Ausdahl said:when I first bought into Libronix, it was because the resources were advertised as using a new standardized format that I understood could be read by several Bible software companies that had agreed to use the format.
It already came and went, but it wasn't Libronix. (Libronix books were never advertised as being usable within other software programs.)
The book format that could be used in multiple programs was STEP: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/STEP_Library. It was never supported by Logos.
Yes, STEP does ring a bell! Funny thing is, I only had one Bible software app before Libronix and if STEP was the standardized format in question, then that was the resource format used by my first Bible app. The interesting thing (and probably the reason for my impression that Libronix was initially STEP compatible), is that when I called to investigate Libronix and told the sales person what I currently had, I was told I'd be able to see and use all my resources in Libronix. Now to be sure, my library at the time was very small and the person I was speaking to knew what I had, so maybe the person phrased it the way he did simply because he knew the Libronix package I was looking at had all the resources in my current library and then some. I was very new to Bible software at the time, and frankly, quite naive, so it didn't occur to me that I should press the issue. I was told all my current resources would be there in Libronix and they were, so I thought all was well. So I too was under the impression the move away from that "standardized" format happened after my purchase of Libronix.
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[I]William Gabriel said:I can't help but feel like it's used as Base Package filler to justify the high prices.
ASUS ProArt x570s Creator, AMD R9 5950x, HyperX 64gb 3600 RAM, ASUS Strix RTX 2080 ti
"The Unbelievable Work...believe it or not." Little children...Biblical prophecy is not Christianity's friend.
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William Gabriel said:
If something ever happens to the company, I and others will work to reverse engineer the resource structure and encryption so that we can all free our resources. I don't do it now because I want to respect the license, but won't feel beholden to anyone if the company were to fold. I've taken a little peek, and the relatively easy part will be unlocking the encryption. The tougher part will be making use of the proprietary logos format. But we'll work to make sure nobody loses their investment.
William ... no need to unencrypt what you own .... it's written in modern english. The idea one need not respect other's property seems to be a very recent theology, without benefit of the Divine.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Mark said:
STEP was one program. But Libronix was another: http://www.libronix.com/page.aspx?id=techpartners0
Libronix was sold as a technology platform to publishers, not to other Bible software companies. Resources produced in LBXLLS format were only readable in Libronix Digital Library System and its successor, Logos Bible Software 4 (now Logos 7).
It was not like STEP where you could buy an ebook from a publisher and open it in both QuickVerse and WORDSearch.
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Mark said:
STEP was one program. But Libronix was another: http://www.libronix.com/page.aspx?id=techpartners0
The companies in that list produced books that could be read in the Libronix software, not the other way round. They did not produce their own software that could open Libronix modules. Not sure if some of them were using a re-branded version of Libronix? But still Libronix...
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Mark said:
STEP was one program. But Libronix was another: http://www.libronix.com/page.aspx?id=techpartners0
Libronix was sold as a technology platform to publishers, not to other Bible software companies. Resources produced in LBXLLS format were only readable in Libronix Digital Library System and its successor, Logos Bible Software 4 (now Logos 7).
It was not like STEP where you could buy an ebook from a publisher and open it in both QuickVerse and WORDSearch.
And for those who weren't around back in the day when this was discussed on the forum, there were often serious QC issues in the resources these publishers submitted to Logos. That is one reason why Logos/FL moved away from this approach.
ASUS ProArt x570s Creator, AMD R9 5950x, HyperX 64gb 3600 RAM, ASUS Strix RTX 2080 ti
"The Unbelievable Work...believe it or not." Little children...Biblical prophecy is not Christianity's friend.
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Bradley, I am aware that Libronix was a platform...that was available for other companies to use until L4. That means that until L4, companies were able to produce resources for the platform. That is what hooked me into LOGOS instead of Bible Companion (which used STEP).
David, you are correct that quality issues were the reason Libronix was abandoned. But those same quality issues we now have again in L7 (Vysro for example).
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