So...what would make you buy more books from Logos?
Comments
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Agreed Mark [Y]
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Denise said:
William ... no need to unencrypt what you own .... it's written in modern english. The idea one need not respect other's property seems to be a very recent theology, without benefit of the Divine.
The problem we're faced is a little more nuanced if FL did go under. Sure, Logos would keep working, for a while, and we'd be free to export our books....100 slow pages at a time. But eventually the program wouldn't work with future OSes, so you'd have to maintain a VM to keep Logos going, but it would all have to be set up before FL turned the authentication servers off, because you need at least one online login before the offline mode works. The whole thing grows more fragile as time goes on.
If you can manage the encryption and book data structures, then you can port your resources to any system you need. No page restrictions. No risk of getting locked out. And it would all be handled programmatically (I can't tell you how allergic I am to doing things "manually" on a computer). I've got over 13k resources, and I would not want to go through them all to find what I want.
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William Gabriel said:
But eventually the program wouldn't work with future OSes, so you'd have to maintain a VM to keep Logos going, but it would all have to be set up before FL turned the authentication servers off, because you need at least one online login before the offline mode works.
Thankful can clone an installation for offline use without needing connection to Faithlife server(s).
Depends on what happens as to available options.
Thankful for a CEO who wants Faithlife Corporation to be viable for many, many years.
Keep Smiling [:)]
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Denise said:
increased customer confusion, and frustration
Kevin Byford (Faithlife) said:Thanks Denise,
I don't see a problem here that Faithlife can fix. Please post again if an actual issue arises.
And I suspect this attitude (it's not an 'actual issue' if we can't fix it) could be added to the growing list of reasons the company doesn't get it, as well.
Eating a steady diet of government cheese, and living in a van down by the river.
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Doc B said:Denise said:
increased customer confusion, and frustration
Kevin Byford (Faithlife) said:Thanks Denise,
I don't see a problem here that Faithlife can fix. Please post again if an actual issue arises.
And I suspect this attitude (it's not an 'actual issue' if we can't fix it) could be added to the growing list of reasons the company doesn't get it, as well.
I suspect he meant "specific, actionable issue" - but yeah, that's not an ideal way to express it when talking to customers.
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The actionable solution I refused was re-installing/downloading which I said 'no', having seen the same issue over and over. And a Logos propensity to try this, try that in contrast to competitor products that (for me) simply work and emphasize a solid design.
I'm only piping up in defense of Kevin. True, he's up-front comment-wise. But he's fronting a corporate set of priorities, and I (was) a cost of of their decisions.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Denise said:
emphasize a solid design.
Denise, Denise ... you're thinking like an old fogey of a programmer ... back in the day when you didn't just cold start a main frame on whim. They don't teach 'em like that any more. I know 'cuz my grandson is a recent CS grad working at MS. But it shore is nice to see another old fogey online. [:D]
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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I think it was the white 'doctor' coats. They just looked really smart. Nothing could ever go wrong.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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MJ. Smith said:
Denise, Denise ... you're thinking like an old fogey of a programmer ... back in the day when you didn't just cold start a main frame on whim. They don't teach 'em like that any more. I know 'cuz my grandson is a recent CS grad working at MS. But it shore is nice to see another old fogey online.
I loved being in the machine room. Nothing better at the time than being a System Operator. Back in the day, we had paper tape, teletypes (TTY), 300 baud acoustic modems, card readers, line printers, magnetic core memory, consoles with huge front panels. Disk packs were huge and only stored 10 Mb. Changing ribbons on drum printers, what a mess! Some older systems, you had to IPL (initial program load) by entering machine code by hand.
Back then, we had Assembly Language, Fortran, Structured Programming (top-down), flow charts, and had to keypunch our programs onto cards.
Back then, a solid design was made out of iron [:P] There was no such thing as a (graphical) UI.
Now we have internet, wi-fi, tablets and smart phones, and beautiful languages like Swift, yet people grumble about modern software and technology.
People might not like some things about Logos, but as a bit of an old-timer, I really, really appreciate it, especially since we only had 4-8 Mb of memory, in the day. I may be new to Logos, but I think it's really special to have this amazing library and collection of features and tools, dedicated to Bible study.
Anyway, cost is probably the biggest thing that stops me from buying more books and courses. If they were more affordable, I'd have bought them already.
Thanks to FL for including Carta and a Hebrew audio bible in Logos 9!
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Denise said:
Nothing could ever go wrong.
We had hackers trying to break into the system. There were plenty of problems back then. Nothing is new.
EDIT: Actually, come to think of it, I was a hacker, before I got a good job. [:$]
Thanks to FL for including Carta and a Hebrew audio bible in Logos 9!
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It already came and went, but it wasn't Libronix. (Libronix books were never advertised as being usable within other software programs.)
The book format that could be used in multiple programs was STEP: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/STEP_Library. It was never supported by Logos.
There is at least one no cost program with a STEP reader built in available that work on Windows 10 if you still have a STEP library you are trying to read. Mentioning it might get me for violating forum rules but it is listed in that Wikipedia article.
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I have all the books (and more) than I need now. I would, however, be tempted to buy books by conservative Lutheran authors such as Gerhard, Hunnius, Ylvisaker, Kretzmann -- the list goes on (if the price is right). I have been waiting for months for Faithlife to release the prepub on Kretzmann's Popular Commentary. I know, I am a theological dinosaur whose literary interests have little or no impact on Faithlife's financial bottom line.
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I keep tripping over the urgent trend toward a subscription model. If I subscribe, why buy? If I buy, why subscribe? So I do neither--well, I buy little bits and pieces--but certainly nothing big, like I want to do. Waiting to see what might happen next. I wonder if many old timers with big investments are uneasy and find themselves under the purchase threshold? Maybe lots and lots of little purchases of subscriptions will be better in the long run for FL. Seems to me that might be be a different demographic than had been supporting FL. We will see.
More clarity further along the horizon would make a difference. Then I might buy more.
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Gao Lu said:
I keep tripping over the urgent trend toward a subscription model. If I subscribe, why buy? If I buy, why subscribe?
There's a big difference between the (Logos Now software/features) subscription model and library purchases.
Logos Now is not a library subscription. You still would need to buy books.
Logos Cloud is a library subscription which applies to people who don't own (many) books, but would want to rent a collection of books. Renting a library is cheaper short-term, but more expensive long-term, and you obviously lose any books you rented when you cancel.
Bob has repeatedly said that FL will not be moving to subscription-only, and that they will continue to sell both books and features. There's no urgency to subscribe to anything if you don't want to, and no one is being penalized if they don't subscribe. Any subscription is optional.
Thanks to FL for including Carta and a Hebrew audio bible in Logos 9!
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I think Gau Lu might be correct.
I'm certainly not an old timer (2005) or big spender (maybe $25-30k-ish) but I've been onsey-twosy purchasing every since Now.
One can say Now is just features (mainly), but my impression of myself, is I'm on the 'B-team' 'now'.
I remember I bought a Zondervan package and then refunded it ... seemed too dicey, being Zonder*****s and a bad feel too it. The refund guy at Logos seemed mystified since it was a good deal. I agreed.
When you're on the B-team, you're more careful.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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David Menton said:
I am a theological dinosaur
Dr. Menton, that made me snort my tea.
I doubt you remember me, but you and I spoke on a few panels together in the St. Charles/St. Louis area about 20 years ago with the MAC folks. I was the Dean of Natural Sciences at MoBap at the time.
Good to run into you here!
-J B Boren
Eating a steady diet of government cheese, and living in a van down by the river.
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You presented this well. I have confidence that Logos will not go "Subscription Only." However, take into account that "Cloud" thing and all the focus on "Now" and the open expression of diminishing interest in anything BUT, and I am left looking at my expensive library on the left and my B Team button on the right and pressing down inner anxiety. Why would FL invest in the son-turned-stepchild that they don't really like so well anymore? Purchased books and basic software won't go away. True. But the leading edge, the future, the joy of tomorrow is blossoming forth as a bright beautiful shiny-gold calf engraved across the udder with "subsciption." No doubt there will be more and more incentives to subscribe and the best way to bring along all those former investors will be to slowly pinch off the oats going into their feed trough. Leave them with yesterday. When they get hungry enough...offer the best oats through subscription, and they might still be good for a little milk. Might be.PetahChristian said:Gao Lu said:I keep tripping over the urgent trend toward a subscription model. If I subscribe, why buy? If I buy, why subscribe?
There's a big difference between the (Logos Now software/features) subscription model and library purchases.
Logos Now is not a library subscription. You still would need to buy books.
Logos Cloud is a library subscription which applies to people who don't own (many) books, but would want to rent a collection of books. Renting a library is cheaper short-term, but more expensive long-term, and you obviously lose any books you rented when you cancel.
Bob has repeatedly said that FL will not be moving to subscription-only, and that they will continue to sell both books and features. There's no urgency to subscribe to anything if you don't want to, and no one is being penalized if they don't subscribe. Any subscription is optional.
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1. A software development team and company that actually listens to customer concerns, and addresses them, rather than simply saying "you don't know what you're talking about."
2. A way to actually make Logos work with outside note taking software, such as OneNote, without needing to go through hoops to make it work. In fact, this would be preferable to Logos continuing to try to be all things to all people. Give up, and cede the note taking market to applications that actually do a good job at it.
3. Less expensive resources.
4. A forum that was actual discussion about the product, rather than a huge fan club.
Overall, I'm at the point where I use Logos because I _need_ to, rather than because I actually think it's a great product by a great company. I've long ago quit fighting to get my seminary on Logos, I've stopped recommending it to friends, and I've definitely stopped giving away copies to people I think need good research tools. At this point, it looks to me like Logos wins because there is no serious competition, not because the company listens (or cares, as far as I can see), nor because the product is great. IMHO, it would not be a bad thing if Logos were bought out -- maybe someone other than the current leadership would actually listen.
FYI, I've spent over $49k on books for myself in Logos, and given away more than 10 copies of Silver over the years. I now look elsewhere first, and avoid buying books in Logos format unless there just isn't any other choice, or because I have a collection I would like to complete, etc.. I started using Logos 16+ years ago, so I'm not a newbie here.
My opinion of Logos has gone steadily down over the last several years, as a company and as a product. If Faithlife changes, then perhaps I'll change my opinion, and start buying/giving away Logos again. Until then, I've reduced my spending with Faithlife to the minimum possible.
Russ
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Russ White said:
1. A software development team and company that actually listens to customer concerns, and addresses them, rather than simply saying "you don't know what you're talking about."
2. A way to actually make Logos work with outside note taking software, such as OneNote, without needing to go through hoops to make it work. In fact, this would be preferable to Logos continuing to try to be all things to all people. Give up, and cede the note taking market to applications that actually do a good job at it.
3. Less expensive resources.
4. A forum that was actual discussion about the product, rather than a huge fan club.
FYI, I've spent over $49k on books for myself in Logos, and given away more than 10 copies of Silver over the years. I now look elsewhere first, and avoid buying books in Logos format unless there just isn't any other choice, or because I have a collection I would like to complete, etc.. I started using Logos 16+ years ago, so I'm not a newbie here.
My opinion of Logos has gone steadily down over the last several years, as a company and as a product. If Faithlife changes, then perhaps I'll change my opinion, and start buying/giving away Logos again. Until then, I've reduced my spending with Faithlife to the minimum possible.
At the risk looking like a fan, and without near the investment spending gravitas...
1 & 4. The CEO's presence on this forum shows that the company listens. Compare FL to Zondervan, IVP, etc. FL looks better IMHO. Years ago, Taylor Guitar sponsored a user's forum; when the critics chirped too loudly, Taylor ended its relationship and the forum became independent. Lots of people gripe here, but the company still associates with the forum. That's a sign of strength.
2. I use notes heavily, filing interesting quotes, blog posts, stories, etc. tagged to appropriate verses. It's a clunky filing system. When I search it, the results are not very good. I would be nice if note integrated into something like Evernote that provided more powerful search.
3. It looks to me like prices have gone up--smaller discounts, higher list prices. However, the pre-pub price for 533 Carson sermons and dozens of media files--that was a good value.
Overall, though I'm not as enthusiastic right now, I am still vested and rooting for FL, and desire its continued prosperity.
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Ted Weis said:
The CEO's presence on this forum shows that the company listens. Compare FL to Zondervan, IVP, etc. FL looks better IMHO.
Except the CEO is the primary person who doesn't listen, IMHO.
Ted Weis said:It looks to me like prices have gone up
I can most often find the same books I find on Logos in Kindle format for at least a little less, and often much less. For anything that is public domain, I can find it for free. I know there is tagging in there, but good search is often better than tagging.
When Logos becomes a good value again, and focuses on what they do well, then I will be an enthusiastic supporter. Right now I honestly don't think buying resources from Logos offers a good trade in value, versus what I spend, so I've learned to focus on other sources.
Russ
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Russ White said:
2. A way to actually make Logos work with outside note taking software, such as OneNote, without needing to go through hoops to make it work. In fact, this would be preferable to Logos continuing to try to be all things to all people. Give up, and cede the note taking market to applications that actually do a good job at it.
Given the maintenance cost of each external linkage, I would be very unhappy if Faithlife took this approach. And as a personal preference, I would dislike having to use an additional unintegrated software. Which is not to say that the current notes are great, but they are workable if you put some effort into figuring out how to integrate them into your workflow which itself may need some modifications.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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More money in the bank account, more sales on the books I want, and more availablility of the books I want (Carta, etc.)
"The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected."- G.K. Chesterton
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Russ White said:Ted Weis said:
The CEO's presence on this forum shows that the company listens. Compare FL to Zondervan, IVP, etc. FL looks better IMHO.
Except the CEO is the primary person who doesn't listen, IMHO.
To avoid sending sensitive stuff to Faithlife servers, can use two installations: e.g. Logos & Verbum. One installation has Use Internet set to Yes, which is used for library and programs updates plus can access Online Only features: e.g. fuzzy bible search. The other installation has Use Internet set to No that can use scan command to copy library updates from online installation (may need to manually copy contents of one folder from online to offline so scan copies licensed library resources). The offline installation can keep sensitive stuff locally since nothing is sync'd/sent to Faithlife servers.
Thankful for many Logos and Verbum features that work offline.
Thankful for visual filter highlighting that combines hundreds of search results for simultaneous display (so can prayerfully ponder what had been written).
Ben said:More money in the bank account, more sales on the books I want, and more availablility of the books I want (Carta, etc.)
+1 [Y] especially for more money in bank account. Thankful for Logos 7 libraries (currently dreaming).
Keep Smiling [:)]
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Ted Weis said:
The CEO's presence on this forum shows that the company listens. Compare FL to Zondervan, IVP, etc. FL looks better IMHO.
Except the CEO is the primary person who doesn't listen, IMHO.
Ted Weis said:We all have a right to our own "most humble opinion".
However, I just do not agree with the accusation that Bod does not listen. Bob does listen. He may not do what you and I want Him to do in every case, but that is because he is CEO and we are not. No business could survive doing what every customer wanted in every case.
I think it is incredible that Bod spends the time he does on these boards listening to customers. I suspect that he listens more than he gives answers, especially when the answer the customer wants is impossible. But I know of no other CEO in any comparable business that is as responsive to customers as the CEO of Faithlife / Logos.
Just my opinion, but it is based on more than 20 years of doing business with Faithlife / Logos. He has in the past responded to several of my suggestions / requests with an open mind. True, there are times that he did not agree with my most wise unsolicited counsel, but that is to be expected.
"In all cases, the Church is to be judged by the Scripture, not the Scripture by the Church," John Wesley0 -
I doubt participation in a forum (that you paid for, and stocked with selected yes-people) is a special metric for 'listening'. Having spent much grief time in executive duties, sitting and chatting with customers is one of the more enjoyable aspects ... especially when they're giving you an earful. Indeed, managers 'below' always sigh, with the boss's return from customer chit-chats .... more work and creative excuses.
Unique to Bob is the electronic platform that can be scrolled back for 'promises'. Ergo, the feeling of listening, or not.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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MJ. Smith said:
Given the maintenance cost of each external linkage, I would be very unhappy if Faithlife took this approach. And as a personal preference, I would dislike having to use an additional unintegrated software. Which is not to say that the current notes are great, but they are workable if you put some effort into figuring out how to integrate them into your workflow which itself may need some modifications.
Can you scope the amount of work you're thinking this would be? It seems, to me, this would be a LOT less work than trying to build a completely new note processing package, which is what Logos is doing in a half-hearted sort of way. The basic question is this -- is it worth Faithlife's time to bring coders on board to rebuild OneNote or Evernote, for instance?
Second point -- the problem of using "unintegrated software" runs in both directions. I use OneNote for everything else, including taking notes in online versions of journals and other research materials not available in Logos, building paper outlines, keeping track of tasks that need to be done to complete a paper, building class outlines, etc. Sure, I could do all of this in Logos, hence making Logos my one resource for tracking my entire life, but this seems backwards to me -- Logos doesn't pretend to be a general organizational and writing software package, nor have I heard of any plans to make it such. In other words, I either must integrate my life around the way Logos works, or I must integrate Logos into the way I already do research.
At this point, Logos half-heartedly allows one, has no apparent plans to replace OneNote on all my devices, and does not allow the other. Given the situation, integrating Logos into my daily workflow is a better solution than modifying my entire workflow around Logos.
Russ
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To avoid sending sensitive stuff to Faithlife servers, can use two installations: e.g. Logos & Verbum. One installation has Use Internet set to Yes, which is used for library and programs updates plus can access Online Only features: e.g. fuzzy bible search. The other installation has Use Internet set to No that can use scan command to copy library updates from online installation (may need to manually copy contents of one folder from online to offline so scan copies licensed library resources). The offline installation can keep sensitive stuff locally since nothing is sync'd/sent to Faithlife servers.
So you have two installs, which must be configured in a specific way, to prevent your data from being sent to their servers. Funny how OneNote, Evernote, Dropbox, SpiderOak, Box, and many others all allow you to selectively synchronize data, and/or to encrypt data before it's sent, etc., but Logos requires you, the user, to jump through a ton of hoops to get anything close to the same impact.
This is a hack, not a solution.
Russ
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Russ White said:
The basic question is shit -- is it worth Faithlife's time to bring coders on board to rebuild OneNote or Evernote, for instance?
No, and those are not examples of my expectations of an in-app note system.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Tony Thomas said:
Lower prices? Better libraries and bundles? More frequent sales? Just curious.
1. Pre-pubs that are => 40 % off FL regular price. 6 % off is grossly deficient.
2. Break those collections on down. I just don't buy collections - they contain unnecessary material.
3. Great sales.
4. Remove the video from Mobile Ed. + sell 'em for 1/5 the price. I own one + when going thru it, I will read, then highlight as needed, never looking at the live human. Or have 2 set-ups: vid in, vid out.
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Russ White said:
So you have two installs, which must be configured in a specific way, to prevent your data from being sent to their servers.
Actually have several computers with my library in Logos and Verbum (does use many GB's of storage). Thankful can use Logos and Verbum at the same time on one computer so can have Library and Collections open in each one (quite useful when modifying collection rules).
Thankful can download library updates from Faithlife servers to one installation followed by using scan command in other installations over my local area network, which takes significantly less time.
Thankful for Logos on a MacBook Air (MBA) that is used offline several times every week.
Russ White said:This is a hack, not a solution.
"Hack" is one way to describe an innovative alternative to keep sensitive data locally, which can be maintained with program and library updates.
Russ White said:... many others all allow you to selectively synchronize data, and/or to encrypt data before it's sent, etc.,
Edit: diagnostic log files show sync to Faithlife servers uses https protocol. Faithlife web sites use https for encrypted communication to your browser, which is a change from years ago when unencrypted http was used.
Keep Smiling [:)]
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MJ. Smith said:
No, and those are not examples of my expectations of an in-app note system.
So again -- either I integrate my life with Logos, or I integrate Logos with my life. I don't think it's really all that unreasonable to ask Logos to integrate with my life, rather than the other way around. So -- I don't agree -- making Logos integrate with other packages would not be "too difficult to maintain," or the like. It would greatly enhance the functionality and usefulness of the software.
There are two things that keep me away from these forums. First is the fan boy club here. Second is the constant insistence that Logos not add anything that would be useful to anyone, because "I don't want it." I've yet to hear a valid reason to not add functionality.
Russ
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Russ White said:
I've yet to hear a valid reason to not add functionality.
Offhand, and as general principles, most or all of which don't apply meaningfully to this particular case:
1. Cost of maintaining it.
2. Increased download size(s).
3. Increased end-user complexity.
4. Slowing down the program / increased computer resource use / increased minimum specs.
5. Diversion of in-house resources from higher-priority projects.
6. Not being able to execute the functionality sufficiently well to achieve customer needs/desires or otherwise to cause customers to use it.
7. Increased server costs.
8. Risk of a lawsuit.
9. Expectations of adding some form of the functionality to the mobile apps, for which the above principles tend to apply more strongly.
Not that I've written anything above that I expect you don't already know.
“The trouble is that everyone talks about reforming others and no one thinks about reforming himself.” St. Peter of Alcántara
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Actually have several computers with my library in Logos and Verbum (does use many GB's of storage).
Which means "I don't mind spending a lot of money to solve a problem Faithlife should have solved long ago, and most other software that functions in a similar way has already solved." I have precisely one computer, and it doesn't have many gigabytes of available space to solve Logos' problems.
"Hack" is one way to describe an innovative alternative to keep sensitive data locally,
No, it's a hack, plain and simple. I've been in the world of IT for going on 40 years at this point, and I recognize a hack when I see one. Innovation is taking the hack and making it into a product, or integrating it into the hacked product. What's wrong is when a company sees people doing hacks like this, and then refusing to listen, or resolve the issue.
Again -- to return to the original thread: "what would it take for you to spend more money on Logos?" One answer: when I don't have to spend money on several gigabytes of storage across multiple computers so I can keep my information off the Logos cloud, where it is not encrypted, or when Logos integrates with systems that are more useful than internal notes will ever be in a way that makes it a more useful product.
When I can stop spending money on all this hardware, maybe I'll have more to spend on Logos. When I can spend less time flipping back and forth between various software packages because Faithlife refuses to do the right thing in terms of integration with other software packages, perhaps I'll have more time to look through the product catalog and spend a little more money.
The OP asked, I've given an answer. I'm sorry you don't like my answer(s). As always, y'all have successfully chased me off the forums -- great job, fan boys.
Russ
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Russ White said:
First is the fan boy club here.
I must have missed that. Where can I sign up?[:D]
Merry Christmas, Russ!
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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SineNomine said:
Offhand, and as general principles, most or all of which don't apply meaningfully to this particular case:
To the contrary, (2/4/7) if Logos integrated better, there would be no notes files to synchronize, hence the synchronization time (for those who choose to use those features!) would be much less. Server costs would actually be less, as would the risk of any lawsuits (8/the current Faithlife posture is actually a large attack vector against the company's very existence, no matter how much they bury their head in the sand). For (3), Faithlife needs to stop treating their users like babies.
As for (5) -- Faithlife could have completed development of the required features in the same amount of time they, and other folks on this forum, have spent justifying their failure to actually implement anything.
Russ
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Russ White said:
Actually have several computers with my library in Logos and Verbum (does use many GB's of storage).
Which means "I don't mind spending a lot of money to solve a problem Faithlife should have solved long ago, and most other software that functions in a similar way has already solved." I have precisely one computer, and it doesn't have many gigabytes of available space to solve Logos' problems.
Apologies since "meaning" misses my mark; more than one computer provides backup for hardware failure (have experienced a few). Having more than one computer has been useful for replicating Logos user interface differences on Windows and OS X.
Different people choose number of device(s) for their Logos library. My "newest" computer is a 2014 model. Thankful for a pair of internal 256 GB SATA III Solid State Disks (SSD) that revitalized a 2009 model laptop with Intel Core2Duo P8400 CPU
Newegg currently has a 256 GB SSD for $ 79.99 => http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820211864
512 GB SSD is $ 149.99 => http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820211881
Considering hundreds of collections in my library plus many visual filters, am Thankful and impressed by Logos 7 and Verbum 7 on older hardware with SSD's.
Russ White said:One answer: when I don't have to spend money on several gigabytes of storage across multiple computers so I can keep my information off the Logos cloud, where it is not encrypted, or when Logos integrates with systems that are more useful than internal notes will ever be in a way that makes it a more useful product.
Thankful for your insights. For Faithlife cloud storage, this volunteer user does not know if encrypted or not. Thankful for my library having my documents without any surprise appearance from anyone else. Thankful can freely publish documents for sharing plus can copy ones that have been published.
Apologies since usually do not have any Notes open. My favorite Logos and Verbum feature is visual filter highlighting that has a couple dozen open daily.
Currently the # 1 Logos User Voice Suggestion has 958 Votes => Import/Export notes to/from Evernote.
Searching Logos User Voice for integration suggestions found:
- 155 Votes => add integration for MS Onenote. (MS OneNote is available on Windows and OS X)
- 40 Votes => Amend / Fix the highlighting functionality which causes only fragments of highlighted text to be stored in the Annotations (or Notes) file. (part of my reason for not using highlighting is text fragment)
- 4 Votes => OneNote integration
- 3 Votes => Notes and quotes - reference manager integration
Also noticed 14 votes => Incorporate Logos Now into the Logos software we already pay for
For me to purchase more from Faithlife, my financial situation needs modification so currently only dreaming of => Suggestion: "Gem" superset of Base Packages
By the way, 2 Jul 2016 article Full disk encryption easily broken on tens of millions of Android devices and 19 Dec 2016 macOS 10.12.2 fixed vulnerability that allowed Thunderbolt device to obtain password from locked Mac illustrate technical complexity of implementing encryption well. Thankful for migration of Faithlife web sites to secure communication plus hoping smart people implement encryption well.
Keep Smiling [:)]
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Tony Thomas said:
Lower prices? Better libraries and bundles? More frequent sales? Just curious.
Tony
I recall the famous prayer...
'Lord, Make me the sort of person that you could trust to win the Lottery! Amen'
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Mike
Now tagging post-apocalyptic fiction as current affairs. Latest Logos, MacOS, iOS and iPadOS
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scooter said:Tony Thomas said:
Lower prices? Better libraries and bundles? More frequent sales? Just curious.
1. Pre-pubs that are => 40 % off FL regular price. 6 % off is grossly deficient.
2. Break those collections on down. I just don't buy collections - they contain unnecessary material.
3. Great sales.
4. Remove the video from Mobile Ed. + sell 'em for 1/5 the price. I own one + when going thru it, I will read, then highlight as needed, never looking at the live human. Or have 2 set-ups: vid in, vid out.
Point 4: which is why i hardly purchase mobile ed now, unless they appear in CP ... but now they almost never appear in CP.
I do not need the videos, and Mobile Eds are priced exorbitantly with the videos even in Pre pub. I basically need the basic notes/text, which shouldn't cost much as they link to books i already own.
Hence i do not see why I should pay $399.99 for Judges Mobile Ed on Pre pub, where the same money could be spent purchasing 10 commentaries on Judges in print.
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Vincent Chia said:scooter said:
4. Remove the video from Mobile Ed. + sell 'em for 1/5 the price. I own one + when going thru it, I will read, then highlight as needed, never looking at the live human. Or have 2 set-ups: vid in, vid out.
Point 4: which is why i hardly purchase mobile ed now, unless they appear in CP ... but now they almost never appear in CP.
I do not need the videos, and Mobile Eds are priced exorbitantly with the videos even in Pre pub. I basically need the basic notes/text, which shouldn't cost much as they link to books i already own.
Hence i do not see why I should pay $399.99 for Judges Mobile Ed on Pre pub, where the same money could be spent purchasing 10 commentaries on Judges in print.
Dreaming of Mobile Ed transcript bundles. My preferred learning method is reading (visual). Transcripts have text that can be searched plus additional links to open other resources. For learning language, videos pronounce words.
Dreaming of a Hebrew audio complement to Greek Audio New Testament Also would like Latin and LXX audio.
For Faithlife cloud storage, this volunteer user does not know if encrypted or not. Thankful for my library having my documents without any surprise appearance from anyone else. Thankful can freely publish documents for sharing plus can copy ones that have been published.
Thankful for Faithlife replies in thread => Multi Factor Authentication
Francis said:The credit card information is only stored on their website, not our devices.
It's not even stored on our website: when you enter a credit card number into logos.com, it's immediately transmitted to a secure, third-party payment management company, then immediately deleted from our systems. (So even if logos.com was hacked, your payment information would never be exposed.)
Thankful for industry best practices being implemented and audited (checked)
Don Awalt said:Great to know, thanks Bradley! What about personal information like addresses, phone numbers, email?
This is stored on our servers (as are documents, settings, and other sync data). These databases are protected by industry best practices for technical and physical security, regularly audited by a third-party, etc.
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Russ White said:SineNomine said:
Offhand, and as general principles, most or all of which don't apply meaningfully to this particular case:
To the contrary, (2/4/7) if Logos integrated better, there would be no notes files to synchronize, hence the synchronization time (for those who choose to use those features!) would be much less. Server costs would actually be less, as would the risk of any lawsuits (8/the current Faithlife posture is actually a large attack vector against the company's very existence, no matter how much they bury their head in the sand).
As I noted and you quoted, most of the reasons for non-development that I listed don't apply to this particular case.
Russ White said:For (3), Faithlife needs to stop treating their users like babies.
I would say both that, generally speaking, FL tries not to "treat their users like babies", and that some of their users act (at least intermittently) meaningfully younger than they are. But such is life.
“The trouble is that everyone talks about reforming others and no one thinks about reforming himself.” St. Peter of Alcántara
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Thankful for industry best practices being implemented
Technically, that's not a 'best practice,' it is an industry standard, required by law (PCI). The third-party PMCs are making a killing off the rules, though, I don't see a better way to do it given the size and resources of those who are trying to steal the data (i.e., your money).
Eating a steady diet of government cheese, and living in a van down by the river.
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Half the time when I go looking on logos.com or vyrso.com for a theological book that I've come across in my meanderings online, they don't have it, but it's available in Kindle. I click "Buy now with 1-click" and I'm off to the races. And then when I look at all the other interesting related books that Amazon suggests to me, I discover MORE books that I buy on impulse too. And these are from major Christian publishing houses that Logos already has tons of books from (IVP, Baker, Brazos, Abingdon, etc.) I seriously am that impulsive a buyer, and if more great books were available in Logos as one-offs with Kindle-like prices (or close) I would buy more.
Here's a good example of what I'm talking about. The first random book that came to my mind, Knowing God by J.I. Packer, is available in Kindle now but hasn't been in Logos for years.
I often spend time just browsing around through Amazon's catalog by clicking on related books to one I'm searching for and then following the rabbit trails from there. I can usually in a matter of about a half an hour draw up a list of 10-30 highly rated theological books by powerhouse authors from reputable publishers that Logos doesn't have. I used to regularly make up wishlists of such books, but I gave up because it's a never-ending battle. Logos should have someone full-time making up lists like this, and they should go after them all to fill out their catalogue.
Here are some examples of these book suggestion lists I used to post regularly:
https://community.logos.com/forums/t/98668.aspx
https://community.logos.com/forums/t/98766.aspx
http://community.logos.com/forums/t/97784.aspx
https://community.logos.com/forums/t/98878.aspx
https://community.logos.com/forums/t/12197.aspx
http://community.logos.com/forums/t/70968.aspx
http://community.logos.com/forums/t/12082.aspx
https://community.logos.com/forums/t/79803.aspx
https://community.logos.com/forums/t/13916.aspx
https://community.logos.com/forums/p/48793/361387.aspx#361387
https://community.logos.com/forums/p/71688/499100.aspx#499100
https://community.logos.com/forums/t/52995.aspx
https://community.logos.com/forums/p/102193/706890.aspx#706890
https://community.logos.com/forums/t/9012.aspx
https://community.logos.com/forums/t/94765.aspx
https://community.logos.com/forums/t/106915.aspx
https://community.logos.com/forums/p/85523/599325.aspx#599325
https://community.logos.com/forums/p/9193/576358.aspx#576358
https://community.logos.com/forums/t/28448.aspx
http://community.logos.com/forums/t/84022.aspx
https://community.logos.com/forums/t/73032.aspx
https://community.logos.com/forums/t/79779.aspx
https://community.logos.com/forums/t/97783.aspx
To my knowledge, most of these have still not seen the light of day in Logos.
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Rosie Perera said:
To my knowledge, most of these have still not seen the light of day in Logos.
Wow, listing all those threads is a powerful reminder.
Rosie Perera said:Here's a good example of what I'm talking about. The first random book that came to my mind, Knowing God by J.I. Packer, is available in Kindle now but hasn't been in Logos for years.
This book often comes to my mind. So far I have been patient and not purchased much from Kindle. But the longer Logos goes without addressing books like these the harder it is to wait. What's a person to do?
And then there is the ongoing discussion of Carta books that seem to have little hope of ever being in Logos....
Using adventure and community to challenge young people to continually say "yes" to God
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Russ White said:
For (3), Faithlife needs to stop treating their users like babies.
If memory serves, L4 didn't have notes when intro'd. And it was Bob that argued repeatedly, that external note software was the better route. And presumably the 'babies' insisted ... I've always thought pastors should minimally be expert in computers, software, encryption, etc with maybe some Bible on the side.
I've always kept notes outside ... having Logos support for a preferred notes app would do nothing, since I use several Bible packages.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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I have resisted making any comments regarding the Notes conversation on this thread until now, because the main reason I still use L3 is the beautiful and ingenious (aka serendipitously lucky) way it handles notes. I have just committed myself to accepting increasing isolation in that regard. However, my difficulty in getting my new computer system to support L3 adequately led a friend to suggest that I may have to bite the bullet at some point and move over to L>3, like it or not. Though I despise that notion to its core, I am at least contemplating what that would look like.
One thing I can say for sure is that the idea of external notes is one big fat STINK BOMB. I don't know how others use Notes, but my notes MUST BE part of my Bible. My notes are almost entirely wedged into the precise point in my NASB where that information is relevant. As I've said many times before, the notion of "presentation software" is utterly redundant in my view, since L3 IS PRESENTATION SOFTWARE. Bob didn't recognize that when he put it together (that is what I mean by "serendipitous" above--he called the way I use L3 "creatively novel"). And L>3 certainly isn't geared anywhere close to being as useful in that regard. But the ONLY thing that makes my possible migration to L>3 conceivable is INTERNAL NOTES.
Nothing that OneNote or EverNote can do replicates this...
In L3, every one of these note icons is capable of bringing up a complete screenful of pertinent and highly useful information, Johnny-on-the-Spot.
Here is an example:
This is a NOTE from L3...and you can't replicate this in L6, L7, nor any subsequent version either, because there is no will to do so. But this screen can be filled pretty much with anything text based, regardless of language, including fully formatted interlinear passages...and all it takes to access this info is a simple HOVER. My Bible study presentations are POWERFUL because of this instantaneous flood of information. L>3 in this regard? Not even remotely close. So much for progress.
Without a satisfactory replacement, I wouldn't take a million dollars for L3. Even so, with L>3's paltry stand-in for Notes, I might be able to muddle through if I had no other options. Having to use EverNote or OneNote would constitute catastrophic disaster. It's hard to overemphasize how important my notes are and how important it is to have them IN MY BIBLE.
Therefore, consider this my vote against the noxious notion of removing Notes from Logos.
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David Paul said:
Having to use EverNote or OneNote would constitute catastrophic disaster. It's hard to overemphasize how important my notes are and how important it is to have them IN MY BIBLE.
Therefore, consider this my vote against the noxious notion of removing Notes from Logos.
These implementations need not be mutually exclusive. There are multiple layers to note taking software, from the back end syncing, to the input model to the presentation layer. You could implement something like an Evernote core and still have the same bible integration you want. I think most of us like the way our notes and highlights format our books, but I also think most of us despise note input and management.
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Bruce Dunning said:
So far I have been patient and not purchased much from Kindle. But the longer Logos goes without addressing books like these the harder it is to wait.
That used to be my firm policy, but I gave it up a couple of years ago. Kindle now even has collections to help organize your books there (though they don't have searching across multiple books; Logos is far ahead of them in search). I now have 139 books in my Theology collection in Kindle. I would have bought these all in Logos if I could have.
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Insofar as "... what would make me buy more books from Logos?" - probably not much.
I have what I consider to be an adequate library for my needs. It reflects much of what I have come to believe and understand with just a sprinkling of the heretical to add spice. Many books are not much more than rehashes of other people's thoughts with minimal, genuinely new material - I have little need or desire for those tomes. Or, they are bubbling fountains of buzzwords and buzzideas - always trying to be the next big thing - yawn. And, of course, there are the categories that I just have no desire to read, own, much less purchase [I dare not to list them lest the hypersensitive combust into self-righteous, indignant flames]. Only on rare occasions do I sit up and take notice of a title that is an absolute 'must have'.
-------------------
As an aside, I do find the Notes discussion in the last few pages of this thread rather interesting. My note taking is far more along the lines of what Bob originally intended, i.e., analogous to the simple notes one might pencil into the margin of a paper bible. All I want is a few words to jog my memory here and there, on this and on that, plus a place to record my own cogitations from under the fig tree. The addition of tags and labels are a plus, but I need not much more.
And yet, I can fully understand the needs/wants of, say, Russ, et al., for a more robust note capability.
It has always been my contention that FL/Logos is trying too hard to write 'one program to rule them all' [apol. to Tolkien]. IMO, the Logos ground floor should be a very simple, basic program with kindergarten research and note-taking capabilities, combined with a minimal/basic resource collection(s). Then, by the addition of more complex modules and resources, one works his/her way to the scholarly pinnacles of a Languages program, or a Preaching program, or a Classics program, etc..
But, hey, what do I know?
Instead of Artificial Intelligence, I prefer to continue to rely on Divine Intelligence instructing my Natural Dullness (Ps 32:8, John 16:13a)
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Rosie Perera said:
Kindle now even has collections to help organize your books there (though they don't have searching across multiple books; Logos is far ahead of them in search). I now have 139 books in my Theology collection in Kindle. I would have bought these all in Logos if I could have.
Wow, you are slipping to the dark side. [;)] I'm still holding strong as an optimist but...[:S]
Using adventure and community to challenge young people to continually say "yes" to God
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said:
