Essential reference works

https://www.logos.com/product/27749/survivors-guide-to-theology

Hi Christopher:

As a non expert, I like certain very basic books to help me.

From an article related to 9Marks we can see that there are different areas, that may require different resources:

I particularly like very much: (remember I am not formally trained)

Anchor Yale Dictionary, Old ISBE has some neat stuff,

https://www.logos.com/product/4897/the-ways-of-our-god-an-approach-to-biblical-theology

https://www.logos.com/product/16107/dictionary-of-bible-themes,

https://www.logos.com/product/8537/the-jewish-encyclopedia,

Logos Pro Team had some recommendations on good resources for study, but I cannot find the exact article:

https://blog.logos.com/2016/04/top-bible-study-resources-picked-logos-pros/

In a similar article they listed:

https://www.logos.com/product/27277/new-dictionary-of-biblical-theology

In the forums, many persons have given recommendations for resources, an important one for me was:

https://www.logos.com/product/46349/lexham-glossary-of-theology

There are good Mobile ed courses that clarify many concepts, and that recommend good resources according to particular areas.

As you can see I am more drawn to Systematic Theology and topical studies.

One idea is for you to enter "Logos Pro Team" in the search box of Logos Talk blog site and explore what they have to say:

https://blog.logos.com/2016/01/5-ways-the-logos-pros-can-help-with-your-bible-study/

https://blog.logos.com/2010/10/improving_your_bible_study_with_dictionaries/

I have a collection with all my dictionaries / encyclopedias, and some suggested resources by the Logos Pro Team, and I use it to search for particular topics to get a rough idea of the conceptual envelope associated with it.

https://blog.logos.com/2016/12/people-really-studied-bibles-2017/

https://blog.logos.com/2015/07/how-to-grasp-the-flow-of-thought-in-a-passage/

https://blog.logos.com/2018/05/study-concept-senses-ring/

You must remember that many tools in Logos actually harness many resources to help you with the task at hand.

https://blog.logos.com/2017/07/find-every-eschatological-reference-entire-bible/

https://blog.logos.com/2017/07/use-bible-sense-lexicon-logos/

https://blog.logos.com/2017/06/find-everywhere-jesus-discusses-subject/

https://blog.logos.com/2017/06/search-connections-greek-english-bibles/

Then there are timeless classics like:

https://blog.logos.com/2014/07/logos-5-combine-clause-passage-list-and-ln-numbers-for-a-unique-search/

https://blog.logos.com/2014/06/how-do-you-use-logos-dave-moser/

As you can see, there are certain resources that are very good reference works. but Logos software is a platform that goes beyond that to provide tools, workflows, and the like that allow more to be done more effectively.

The amount of help from the Logos Pro Team and others is large and invaluable in tackling tasks suited to particular areas as depicted in the graphic above.

Hope some of the above info is of help to you.

Kind regards.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1049867#Comment_1049867

Thank you for the well thought out reply, Hamilton. I will admit the intent was less to gather resources than generate discussion and traffic in the Orthodox products forum. I appreciate your contribution.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1049935#Comment_1049935

Ok, sorry.

Any thoughts on good Orthodox systematic theology?

What are some of the key loci, that you think are missing in the systematic theologies of other traditions / denominations?

Tanks ahead of time for your input.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1050108#Comment_1050108

Well since theology is the study of God, I would have to say that the primary deficit in non-Orthodox books of theology (at least from an Orthodox perspective) is that they are wrong.

Also, Orthodoxy has never been overly concerned with systematically organizing anything. It is probably the single most disorganized organized religion I've ever seen. Having said that I would suggest

Orthodox Dogmatic Theology by Michael Pomazansky,

Surprisingly not present in Logos, but available here https://www.sainthermanmonastery.com/product-p/odt.htm

An Exact Exposition of the Orthodox Faith by St. John of Damascus

https://www .logos.com/product/27482/nicene-and-post-nicene-fathers-29-st-hilary-of-poitiers-john-of-damascus).

Orthodox Spirituality by Dmitru Staniloe.

https://www.logos.com/product/54455/orthodox-spirituality-a-practical-guide-for-the-faithful-and-a-definitive-manual-for-the-scholar It is definitely on my "to read list."

I have not read the last one, but it is highly regarded and may actually do more to explain how Orthodoxy views our interface with God, and the ultimate goal of the Christian life.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1050159#Comment_1050159

Thanks for the recommendations.

Any particular recommendation on the topic of "indwelling of the Holy Spirit", and His relation to deification (theosis).

And do you know if Orthodox groups split over Spiritual gifts cessation vs continuationism?

Lastly, how do you go about moral theology? do you treat it as christian ethics part of philosophy?

Thanks ahead of time for you valuable input.

Which reference works (on or off logos) do you consider essential in either bible study or sermon prep?

For the Orthodox perspective, that is not an easy question. I would suggest:

the books of Johanna Manley as one thread to follow;
The commentaries of Theophylact of Ohrid are a definite must.
Kallistos Ware provides a methodology so anything that helps you implement that is a plus ... access to summaries of typology, liturgical documents, sermons ...
I've seen only a bit of the Chrysostom Bible project but it may deserve mention.

But remember that I am Catholic leaning towards the Eastern rites and I stick to English sources.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1050194#Comment_1050194

Any particular recommendation on the topic of "indwelling of the Holy Spirit", and His relation to deification (theosis).

Abiding in the Indwelling Trinity by George A Maloney S.J. (an Eastern Rite Catholic who retired as Orthodox)

Also of possible interest The Orthodox Understanding of Salvation: “Theosis” in Scripture and Tradition by Christopher Veniamin

And do you know if Orthodox groups split over Spiritual gifts cessation vs continuationism?

No ... there are very few splits in Orthodox history. Their groupings are ethnic. The recent Ukraine scuffle is typical of their "splits". From Wikipedia, quoting three separate sources: "The shared beliefs of Orthodoxy, and its theology, exist within Holy Tradition and cannot be separated from it, for their meaning is not expressed in mere words alone. Doctrine cannot be understood unless it is prayed. Doctrine must also be lived in order to be prayed, for without action, the prayer is idle and empty, a mere vanity, and therefore the theology of demons" Think holistic not analytic theology/philosophy.

Lastly, how do you go about moral theology? do you treat it as christian ethics part of philosophy?

Moral theology is simply another aspect of spiritual development. See the anthology Pilgrimage of the Heart: A Treasury of Eastern Christian Spirituality by George A. Maloney. Ethics comes from Scripture, sacraments, patristic writings, canon law and a few other sources of spiritual development. Or you can look at the bibliography for a more Western influenced writings on ethics:

[quote]

John Breck, The Sacred Gift of Life: Orthodox Christianity and Bioethics (1999) ISBN 978-0881411836
John Breck, Stages on Life's Way: Orthodox Thinking on Bioethics, with Lynn Breck (2006). ISBN 978-0881412994

H. Tristram Engelhardt, Jr., The Foundations of Christian Bioethics (2000) ISBN 902651557X

Vigen Guroian, Notes Toward an Eastern Orthodox Ethic. The Journal of Religious Ethics. Vol. 9, No. 2 (Fall, 1981), pp. 228-244.
Vigen Guroian, Seeing Worship as Ethics: An Orthodox Perspective. The Journal of Religious Ethics. Vol. 13, No. 2 (Fall, 1985), pp. 332-359.
Vigen Guroian, Life's Living Toward Dying: A Theological and Medical-Ethical Study (1996). ISBN 978-0802841902
Vigen Guroian, Incarnate Love: Essays in Orthodox Ethics, 2nd revised and expanded edition (2002). ISBN 978-0268031695
Vigen Guroian, Ethics after Christendom: Toward an Ecclesial Christian Ethics (2006). ISBN 978-1592447671

Stanley Harakas, Contemporary Moral Issues Facing the Orthodox Christian (1982). ISBN 978-0937032244
Stanley Harakas, For the Health of Body and Soul: An Eastern Orthodox Introduction to Bioethics (1983). ISBN 978-0916586423
Stanley Harakas, Let Mercy Abound: Social Concern in the Greek Orthodox Church (1994). ISBN 978-0916586614
Stanley Harakas, Living the Faith: The Praxis of Eastern Orthodox Ethics (1993). ISBN 978-0937032923
Stanley Harakas, Toward Transfigured Life: The Theoria of Eastern Orthodox Ethics (1983). ISBN 978-0937032282
Stanley Harakas, Wholeness of Faith and Life: Eastern Orthodox Ethics. Vol. 1: Patristic Ethics ISBN 978-1885652263. Vol. 2: Church Life Ethics (2004) ISBN 978-1885652294. Vol. 3: Orthodox Social Ethics (2004) ISBN 978-1885652300
Christos Yannaras, The Freedom of Morality (1984). ISBN 0881410284

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1050159#Comment_1050159

Well since theology is the study of God, I would have to say that the primary deficit in non-Orthodox books of theology (at least from an Orthodox perspective) is that they are wrong.

Hmmm ...I believe it is a tautology to say the theological books that are correct are orthodox (right opinion) and those that are incorrect are non-orthodox. But in 70+ years, I have never found the denominational label attached to an author to be more than a loose indication of the orthodoxy of a book. Although the denominational label does indicate the topics in which the author is most likely to be orthodox.

Also, Orthodoxy has never been overly concerned with systematically organizing anything. It is probably the single most disorganized organized religion I've ever seen.

This is the largest gap between Orthodox and Catholic - a cultural gap not a theological one. It is interesting to watch Orthodoxy in the West as it begins to develop the academic papers and books tradition that Catholics have dealt with for centuries. It is slowly narrowing the gap.

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1050391#Comment_1050391

Well since theology is the study of God, I would have to say that the primary deficit in non-Orthodox books of theology (at least from an Orthodox perspective) is that they are wrong.

Hmmm ...I believe it is a tautology to say the theological books that are correct are orthodox (right opinion) and those that are incorrect are non-orthodox. But in 70+ years, I have never found the denominational label attached to an author to be more than a loose indication of the orthodox of a book. Although the denominational label does indicate the topics in which the author is most likely to be orthodox.

Also, Orthodoxy has never been overly concerned with systematically organizing anything. It is probably the single most disorganized organized religion I've ever seen.

This is the largest gap between Orthodox and Catholic - a cultural gap not a theological one. It is interesting to watch Orthodoxy in the West as it begins to develop the academic papers and books tradition that Catholics have dealt with for centuries. It is slowly narrowing the gap.

Mr Grant ... your comments ... what a nice addition to MJ's great forum comments. (I'm from the 'wrong' group.)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1050194#Comment_1050194

I was hoping MJ would post a response. The Orthodox Church never stopped believing in God's ability to work miracles through his saints, and that's really never been a point of contention. The biggest points of contention are over the calendar (should we use the "new Julian" or the old Julian calendar), and should the Patriarch of Constantinople be like the pope. The ethnic splits rarely result in a breaking of Eucharistic communion. Ukraine is a troubling exception to that.

I would suggest St. Seraphim of Sarov's conversation with Motovilov as a good jumping off point on the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

There is no particular emphasis on philosophy in Orthodoxy, but there is an emphasis on asceticism. To get a grip on the Orthodox approach to morality I would suggest Way of the Ascetics (not available on Logos), the Alphabetical Sayings of the Desert Fathers, and for a more contemporary look With Pain and Love for Contemporary Man by St. Paisios of Mount Athos.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1050394#Comment_1050394

I meant no disrespect to those who aren't Orthodox. If you are looking for the theological views of a particular group, it makes more sense to read the books from that group than to read something else. Calvin's Institutes would teach me very little about the Theology of the Roman Catholic Church, while The Catechism of the Catholic Church would teach me little about the Theology of the Presbyterians.

If, as an Orthodox Deacon, I was asked to recommend a book on the Theology of the Orthodox Church, and I suggested that the inquirer read Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma by Ludwig Ott, my Bishop might rightly decide that I needed to go take a few remedial classes. If someone asked me to explain what I felt was lacking in Mr. Ott's work, even as close as the Catholic and Orthodox Churches are theologically, that would be a major undertaking. To do so without bruising feelings would be even harder.

A better approach would be to say "If you want to understand Orthodox theology, read the works of Orthodox theologians." Even better, if you want to understand the Orthodox church, attend an Orthodox service.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1050391#Comment_1050391

MJ's note ends with a quote that sums up the Orthodox view on theology very nicely (and riffs of Evagrius of Pontus):

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

This is the largest gap between Orthodox and Catholic - a cultural gap not a theological one. It is interesting to watch Orthodoxy in the West as it begins to develop the academic papers and books tradition that Catholics have dealt with for centuries. It is slowly narrowing the gap.

I can't agree more. There are two primary points of contention between Orthodoxy and Catholicism: 1) the position and scope of authority of the Pope, and 2) the filioque. There have always been cultural differences, and unfortunately those seem to be enough to prevent the two groups from working to find a path through those two rather large points.

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1050398#Comment_1050398

I meant no disrespect to those who aren't Orthodox.

Please don't misunderstand my 'wrong' ... a new perspective is a welcome addition. By way of explanation, in terms of personal 'theology', a literal take on the Writings (vs doctrines), when viewed as a circle, is closest to the Orthodox/Catholic, and opposite the evangelical.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1050327#Comment_1050327

Thanks MJ for the information on the resources.

Some of them are not available in electronic form, but others are.

Moral theology is simply another aspect of spiritual development.

Wonder if there is a relationship between the following (or are they independent and should be worked on individually):

Stages of Faith: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_W._Fowler

Stages of moral development: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_Kohlberg%27s_stages_of_moral_development

Spiritual intelligence: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spiritual_intelligence

Moral intelligence: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_intelligence

It would be awesome to bring the wisdom of the past (across traditions) and the sophisticated methodology of the present, to see how it all jibes using modern frameworks like the above, but always under the guidance of the Holy Spirit and making sure that there is no contradiction with the progressive revelation as found in the Scripture.

Kind regards.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1050396#Comment_1050396

Thanks Christopher for the links and the info.

From: http://www.pravoslavie.ru/47866.html

"However prayer, fasting, vigil and all the other Christian practices may be, they do not constitute the aim of our Christian life. Although it is true that they serve as the indispensable means of reaching this end, the true aim of our Christian life consists of the acquisition of the Holy Spirit of God. As for fasts, and vigils, and prayer, and almsgiving, and every good deed done for Christ's sake, are the only means of acquiring the Holy Spirit of God. Mark my words, only good deeds done for Christ's sake brings us the fruits of the Holy Spirit. All that is not done for Christ's sake, even though it be good, brings neither reward in the future life nor the grace of God in this life. That is why our Lord Jesus Christ said: He who does not gather with Me scatters (Luke 11:23). Not that a good deed can be called anything but gathering, even though a deed is not done for Christ's sake, it is still considered good. The Scriptures say: In every nation he who fears God and does what is right is acceptable to Him(Acts 10:35)."

I am surprised by the paragraph above, I see the aim seems to be the same aim the Charismatics and Pentecostals have, they just do it by different emphasis on certain means.

Very interesting, worth taking a closer look, thanks for sharing.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1050403#Comment_1050403

Wonder if there is a relationship between the following (or are they independent and should be worked on individually):

When dealing with Orthodoxy, everything begins in the liturgy - theology, moral development, spiritual growth ... - it all derives from the Divine Liturgy. Models such as you refer to, are useful as a framework to study development but they don't reflect what happens in an individual case - they are models not reality. Liturgy is the teacher/nurturer of faith, moral development, spiritual intelligence, moral intelligence for the entire population ... individuals absorb what they are ready to absorb and what meets their immediate needs. Think of liturgy as the Great Feast (Word & Sacrifice) in which people eat that which meets their needs - it is too expansive to even taste it all. But like a feast's nutrition, the nutrients interact with one another in very complex ways. One can emphasize a particular element when needed, but one cannot work on elements separately. For Orthodoxy (or Eastern Catholic) think holistic, think liturgy.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1050399#Comment_1050399

There are two primary points of contention between Orthodoxy and Catholicism: 1) the position and scope of authority of the Pope, and 2) the filioque.

Re: the Roman Pope (not the Coptic Pope) have you read "The way forward after the Catholic-Orthodox agreement on primacy and synodality"? It provides some detail on where the dispute arises - it is a surprisingly narrow (but deep) disagreement.

Re: the filioque, have you read US bishops' "The Filioque: A Church Dividing Issue?: An Agreed Statement"? For those reading this thread who have no clue what we are talking about, this is a good summary of the history of the dispute. Also note that the Eastern Rite Catholics are not required to use the filioque ... it is the Western rites that use it. It is not a Catholic/Orthodox split but a East/West split partially explained by heresies that arose in the West but not in the East.

Re: the third element I am used to seeing as a real division is assumption vs. dormition of BVM/Theotokos. "Dormition or Assumption?" provides the Orthodox perspective on the dispute.

Note to Hamilton Ramos: I think the brevity of this list of doctrinal disputes across this "great schism" illustrates why Orthodoxy has not divided over issues such as you mentioned. Essentially, Catholics, Eastern and Oriental Orthodox represent 1,635,000,000 (about 70% of Christians worldwide) a surprisingly solid block of beliefs - Anglo-Catholics and High Lutherans also belong to this block.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1050420#Comment_1050420

MJ:

Liturgy as key makes sense.

Problem is that different groups see its functions in varied ways.

From what I understand (from Eastern culture) of which Jesus was part of, discipleship means "teaching them to obey what Jesus said", if it is not done in a mentoring way (applied to the whole life), there may be substandard development in certain areas.

In charismatic / pentecostal liturgies, the gifts of the Holy Spirit are used to point to: needed further development to individuals and ministry teams,

important areas needing priority (e.g. intercessory prayer to avoid the new country government to do huge mistakes), etc.

Gifts are also used to forewarn of impeding unwanted events (natural), and the need to pray and fast to have God mitigate the effect of it.

There are many gifts that the Holy Spirit bestows to individual believers. Many think that those wanting to pursue further the development of such, need to go to formal university training.

Historically, the gifts were more in hands on development in the local congregation and involved in support of one of three key missions:

Exalt Jesus Christ.

Prepare believers in line with their life mission / ministry and taking into consideration their gifts.

Looking for the lost.

So using the models:

Stages of faith: there are key doctrines and Jesus' ordinances that have to be internalized and applied till they become 2nd nature.

Then before ministering there has to be objective evidence that the Holy Spirit has been acquired to an extent that proper Faith can

be lived out and reproduced.

Gifts have to be developed usually working with more experienced ministers that have that same gift.

Stages of moral development: regardless of our Christian growth, we all have blind spots, and usually carry with us hidden sin and other messes.

The gifts of discernment of spirits, etc. are needed so God uncovers such in a mentoring relation, and relevant ministry support is used

for help.

Spiritual intelligence: Like checklist for Godliness, the decalogue, the sermon on the mount, etc. are used as guides to benchmark the progress along

the spiritual formation / growth continuum.

Many of our admired Fathers, the Jewish religion and other referents had systems, we are the ones gone off the tangent most of the time.

Jews: they thought that their religion needed 3 key component from the point of view of the individual for it to have effect:

Education, Worship, good deeds.

Even Peter presented a reasonable system to grow in grace and Godliness (always under the influence of the Holy Spirit):

2 Peter 1:5 For this very reason, make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue, and virtue with knowledge, 6 and knowledge with self-control, and self-control with steadfastness, and steadfastness with godliness,7 and godliness with brotherly affection, and brotherly affection with love. 8 For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they keep you from being ineffective or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For whoever lacks these qualities is so nearsighted that he is blind, having forgotten that he was cleansed from his former sins. 10 Therefore, brothers, be all the more diligent to make your calling and election sure, for if you practice these qualities you will never fall.

The process is not to gain salvation, salvation is of the Lord and is free, we go through the theosis processes to be worthy of the calling to prepare us (acculturation) in our new heavenly citizenship.

So liturgy alone most probably will not cut it. But it is the base.

In my higher studies (secular) I noticed that many times we needed to put together many different views from different experts to get to a coherent, very helpful whole of the topic at hand.

I was shocked to learn that we as students had to do such synthesis, as I would think that after so many years of accumulated knowledge would allow the experts to put something together very well.

The only time I saw such development at a high level was when involved in the EMS service taking the EMT basic course. I noticed how the top emergenciologists and other specialists got together to put together standard and most effective (up to that training time) the protocols for pre-hospital first responding, 2ndary treatment, etc.

It works, and it does very well.

I wonder how so many experts in theology (biblical, systematic and practical), cannot do the same, as we are talking about something more important: 2nd death prevention.

But no, it seems that they are more concerned about ecclesiastical politics, systems development, and leave in the margins the development of first hand responders, and the very lives of many sheep:

Christian individual responsibility, Christian individual and groups stewardship (including health), gifts identification and development, etc. Seems to be haphazardly done in Church and very dependent on the individual leaders.

Are not christians to be exemplars in organization and methods? Is it not part of good christian testimony? Do sheep every so now and then need a kick in the rear to get going to achieve required standards?

Being a disciple is not easy, and it was not meant to be, we should help construct a conductive environment for high performance in this area, because in my opinion, this is the most important one.

Kind regards.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1050426#Comment_1050426

Note to Hamilton Ramos: I think the brevity of this list of doctrinal disputes across this "great schism" illustrates why Orthodoxy has not divided over issues such as you mentioned. Essentially, Catholics, Eastern and Oriental Orthodox represent 1,635,000,000 (about 70% of Christians worldwide) a surprisingly solid block of beliefs - Anglo-Catholics and High Lutherans also belong to this block.

Post well taken, and not contended.

My concern is as mentioned in a previous post that a more systematic way of helping develop the gifts the Holy Spirit bestows to believers is needed, and also a way to match that to actual needed service.

What good is for the common sheep to have such awesome spearhead persons with so much knowledge, and experience if that does not translate to a system that saves lives?

Check the EMS system analogy.

Eventually some of the grandiosity of knowledge and practice has to drip down to the commoners because they are the ones in the trenches were they can help souls that are in danger of being lost.

I do believe in the "Priesthood of all believers", Jesus died for us all, and the Holy Spirit bestows gifts as He wants.

Are we as church a fit aid to then empower such believing sheep for service in accordance with God's plan, or are we trying to make a gold and silver roll in spiritual matters in which a few are in charge, and are overwhelmed, incapable (due to volume), etc.?

Can a doctor be in every corner? or should there be paramedics in every corner so they can help the dying get to the specialist in time for saving?

In 2 Peter, the message is obvious for all the church, not just the leaders.

Thanks very much for the links, and remember I am on that majority's side, not against them, I just would like to see their true potential kicked into high gear.

Kind regards.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1050474#Comment_1050474

that a more systematic way of helping develop the gifts the Holy Spirit bestows to believers is needed,

The Orthodox have demonstrated for two millennia that systematic methods are not needed. They do use spiritual friendship a.k.a. mentoring and do recognize that some things must be known before others can be learned, that some things can be dangerously misunderstood until one has "prepared the ground" for them. But until you understand that liturgy is participation in the heavenly, eternal, divine liturgy you will focus on the human initiative rather than the divine initiative. Please read the Tolstoy story "The Three Hermits". It illustrates perfectly why Orthodoxy does not worry about systematics but rather trusts God.

Logos has this applicable resource: Engraved Upon the Heart: Children, the Cognitively Challenged, and Liturgy’s Influence on Faith Formation by Hwarang Moon

Problem is that different groups see its functions in varied ways.

You have asked about the Orthodox. In that context, there are no "different groups" with varying views of liturgy. The plethora of opinions on how to design human-made worship services is a Protestant issue and therefore not applicable here. To the best of my knowledge, while there are charismatic liturgies within the liturgical churches, I know of no Pentecostal or Charismatic denomination that is liturgical. Please correct me if I am wrong.

Paul F. Bradshaw's Two Ways of Praying (cathedral vs. monastic) might be useful for understanding some of the basic concepts. Or less fundamental, Logos has Liturgy and Theology: Economy and Reality by Nathan G. Jennings from the Anglican perspective.

In my higher studies (secular) I noticed that many times we needed to put together many different views from different experts to get to a coherent, very helpful whole of the topic at hand.

This is very true for intellectual understanding, including religious and theological topics. However, the primary focus of a Christian is to become Christ-like i.e. to work on oneself not to reach an intellectual understanding of what Christ-like is.

And do you know if Orthodox groups split over Spiritual gifts cessation vs continuationism?

An Orthodox person would be more apt to question why the Church in the West split over the cessation vs continuationism of Tradition.

SineNomine

From my Latin rite Catholic perspective, an absolutely necessary prologomenon to any real study of Orthodoxy or any aspect of it is attending Orthodox (or Eastern Catholic) liturgies, especially but definitely not exclusively the Divine Liturgy. The actual celebration of the liturgy is, to my mind, the first and greatest reference book for Eastern Christianity. (Of course, the liturgy is inexpressably more than a reference book.)

Readers of books on Eastern Orthodoxy will benefit tremendously from attending even one significant Eastern Christian liturgy before hitting the books.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1050483#Comment_1050483

MJ: Thanks for the recommended resources.

Hope we are not considered discussing theology now.

1 Liturgy= public service in most traditions.

2 Holy Spirit gift identification and development: in certain charismatic / pentecostal groups, persons with gift of prophecy, gift of discernment of spirits, word of science, etc. Give many times direct input as to if someone is chosen by God to carry out a particular ministry / mission.

IAW the information, ministry teams that can help out kick in to aid.

3 What I meant by in higher studies should have spearhead people facilitate the means and ways for new converts to start maturing and developing the gifts the H.S. bestowed them.

Most of the actual know how will come with experience in ministry and the growing presence, attunement and letting guide of the Holy Spirit.

But if people do not know what the gifts are, what are they for, how they have been used historically, and what looms in the horizon for them, the process will be slowed down.

Jesus was clear: "teach them to obey", He does the rest of ripening and improving flow through connection to the vine is up to Him.

4 At least in Christopher version of Orthodox Christianity, they acknowledge that God can use for supernatural deployment any of the saints, as is the Holy Spirit the one that Rules.

Old heard story: Catholics seminarians in this country. Visit to the Hospital. One is so touched by the conditions of the patients, that he kneels and starts to pray asking for mercy to God. Some miracles start happening. What did the other seminarians do? Dude, what are you doing, you are not supposed to be doing that, you are not ordained.

Who in your view was following the right system (God's)? The concerned seminarian asking for mercy, or the gung ho institutional type believers that do not do anything (including God's work) unless permitted by an alleged authority (authoritarian)?

There are light years between God's true work and most institutionalized forms of religion, in case it has not been noticed.

Could the system be improved to focus on what is real important? I hope so.

Kind regards.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1050643#Comment_1050643

1 Liturgy= public service in most traditions.

I use liturgy in a much narrower sense -- the sense used, for example, for Chupungco, Anscar J., ed. Introduction to the Liturgy. Handbook for Liturgical Studies. Collegeville, MN: The Liturgical Press, 1997. See "Liturgical Protestant and Non-Liturgical" on the web i.e. to me "liturgical" implies lectionary and service book and commonly some portion of the traditional communal prayers of the hours.

Old heard story: Catholics seminarians in this country. Visit to the Hospital. One is so touched by the conditions of the patients, that he kneels and starts to pray asking for mercy to God. Some miracles start happening. What did the other seminarians do? Dude, what are you doing, you are not supposed to be doing that, you are not ordained.

Who in your view was following the right system (God's)? The concerned seminarian asking for mercy, or the gung ho institutional type believers that do not do anything (including God's work) unless permitted by an alleged authority (authoritarian)?

My view - the story is a bit of anti-Catholic BS based on a seriously misinformed understanding of the lay/ordained distinction and likely with malicious intent. The appropriate response is "when did you quit beating your wife?" or I could ask "How does this related to essential Orthodox references, the topic of this thread?"

Hope we are not considered discussing theology now.

Yes, you have moved into theology. The real question at this point is "do you genuinely want to understand the Orthodox position on e.g. moral theology?" If the answer is yes, then you must put in the work to understand why the Orthodox position begins with an understanding of Orthodox liturgy. If you wish to start with systematics, you will never understand the Orthodox position and by implication, probably never really wanted to. I am very willing to point you to resources to help you understand the Orthodox position; I have no interest in arguing the position with you.

Ken McGuire

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1050593#Comment_1050593

Readers of books on Eastern Orthodoxy will benefit tremendously from attending even one significant Eastern Christian liturgy before hitting the books.

This Lutheran would want to echo this as well. I understand how we Logos book lovers want a resource to explain everything, but from what I DO understand, they view things differently. I will not claim to understand it fully since I remain an outsider, but the best hints I have have been from attending their worship and talking with Orthodox about why they do some of the things they do.

SineNomine

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1050643#Comment_1050643

Old heard story: Catholics seminarians in this country. Visit to the Hospital. One is so touched by the conditions of the patients, that he kneels and starts to pray asking for mercy to God. Some miracles start happening. What did the other seminarians do? Dude, what are you doing, you are not supposed to be doing that, you are not ordained.

The most relevant Logos/Verbum reference resource is the Catechism of the Catholic Church, which also provides readers a sense of how Catholics understand the Orthodox and Eastern Christianity more generally. The version for folks fond of using TL;DR is the Youth Catechism of the Catholic Church (YOUCAT). That's all I have to say on this matter within the bounds of the forum guidelines.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1050650#Comment_1050650

I use liturgy in a much narrower sense

Thanks for the clarification. Is funny that you reference Globalsecurity (I just think is hilarious). Did not see that coming from you.

Note: Corinthians as master blaster gentile Church:

1 Co 14:24 But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or outsider enters, he is convicted by all, he is called to account by all, 25 the secrets of his heart are disclosed, and so, falling on his face, he will worship God and declare that God is really among you.

The original Church did have your kind of Liturgy. But what really made the difference was that resurrected Jesus was with them, the Holy Spirit kept disclosing what was wrong, becoming stumbling block for growth, the true values of a persons heart, the possibllities of a person to be a vessel for honorable use, etc.

And that is what made non-converts know that God was truly there.

Big difference.

My view - the story is a bit of anti-Catholic BS based on a seriously misinformed understanding of the lay/ordained distinction and likely with malicious intent. The appropriate response is "when did you quit beating your wife?" or I could ask "How does this related to essential Orthodox references, the topic of this thread?"

Not at all MJ, because that is the feeling that Catholic Charismatics have. Too much control from the institutionalized leaders, and too little display of the work of the Holy Spirit as shown in 1 Co 14:25.

You can reference all the Orthodox resources you want, but the key point was described in the link provided by Christopher:

Acquisition of the Holy Spirit is where it is at. As he also reported, all saints can be vessels for honorable use. And I may add, once the H.S. is acquired, then the gifts have to be put to use.

Those simple truths put all resources in proper perspectives.

The world is to eventually be filled with the Glory of God, and that includes His supernatural work also. He is in natural way always perfect, we are the ones living in a fallen area.

When He shows up, supernatural things are bound to happen, because He sets things aright for love of His children.

Note that in all my posts, I never push a denomination or group, I (like in the referred link to the article Christopher pointed), think that the acquisition of the Holy Spirit is of utmost importance because that is the second part of the mission Jesus came to do: to baptize us with the Holy Spirit to restore g:koinonia with the Father.

That is beyond tradition and groups.

the Orthodox position begins with an understanding of Orthodox liturgy. If you wish to start with systematics, you will never understand the Orthodox position and by implication, probably never really wanted to

Your opinion MJ. You cannot divorce Orthodox from the Apostle's doctrine.

Jewish pillars: Education (as they had Torah, all could potentially serve God).

Worship (by being in the applicable covenant, and staying within the limits of the moral order ingrained in the created order by God, you could be in the presence of God and be transformed (note how this relates to the gifts being operant as per 1 Co 14:25) the presence of God tells what is really going on, and what must be done.

Good deeds: teach others to obey Jesus, Apostle's doctrine, best practices, but without eschewing the supernatural. So preparing for service, and looking for the lost, while worshipping to grow in gifts to do the job God's way.

The Scripture cannot be broken, and any deviation from the prescribed way, is plain unfaithfulness to the Creator.

I have shown to you what the core of Orthodox is by the link that Christopher posted:

1050404.aspx

I check what you have to say and retain what is good according to their degree of jibing with the Scriptures. Anything that does not jibe I discard.

You are in all good faith sharing with me resources, I am in all good will trying to point out the underneath key spiritual principles behind it all.

Timothy Keller expressed something key about the experience of Jonathan Edwards (if you remember my post on that), most key work is done IAW the Bible, and working in the dimension of the Holy Spirit.

You quoted Sain Francis, and he also was against institutionalized red tape that many times it gets in the way of true work of God.

If the root cause of problems is not brought to the limelight, then how can real progress be made?

Is the forum about just consumerism (buying resources), or is it in the deep intent to expand the Kingdom of God in all of Earth.

If we comment on the more effective ways to do that (regardless of tradition), are we going against the spirit of the forum, or are we hitting it right in the nail head?

Kind regards.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1050713#Comment_1050713

Thanks SineNomine.

I think both resources mentioned by you are great. Even better is Catholic topical index which lets a lot of resources to be combined smartly.

My problem is that even if Catholics have a long lasting tradition of Saints being used supernaturally and otherwise by God, why is not a more systematic way of helping the development of that area.

I understand epicospalism developed to counter the myriad of heresies developing, but in a way I would imagine that by fostering real deep spirituality (so that believers get closer to God), heresies would be countered better.

Saint Francis was not needed to be controlled tightly to a. point of asphyxiation, Yet he was an awesome child of God, we all can agree with that.

We need the sheep to be more like him (him in turn trying to be more like Jesus). So that is about God's love in humble and faithful service for the Kingdom of God, not an institution.

I think some institutional red tape is making the work deviate from the highway to enter auxiliary bad roads.

We all need to think hard on which system are we presently working and where is our allegiance.

Kind regards.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1050656#Comment_1050656

Hi Ken:

I understand what you are trying to say. But then your post kind of illustrates what I am trying to convey to all:

To have a better idea of what is really going on, is not enough to read a book. Ideally if we meet the practitioners / sources then we can understand better.

Exactly my point: If we get the baptism of the Holy Spirit and have an encounter with God that way, we will understand better what He wants done and how.

It is not enough to read the Bible, we need to be involved and take part in Jesus' second mission: baptize us with the Holy Spirit.

The church g:ekklesia was in real life the gathering of believers that had the Holy Spirit operant in their lives.

Now there is a misunderstanding that church is the Structure, with its traditions, authority lines, etc. When all that was just to facilitate being a fit aid to Jesus.

Jesus is the hope of the world, He is the savior. Not the Church, the Church is just a fit aid of Jesus (His Bride), let's not lose that understanding.

Kind regards.

Ken McGuire

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1050733#Comment_1050733

For centuries there has been quite a bit of theological study on various early Christian witnesses in academic theology. Of particular interest to many is Ignatius of Antioch, who left us some letters that he wrote when he was being transported from Antioch to Rome for his expected martyrdom. The textual history of these letters is arguably complex - with some abbreviating them, and others expending on them to update them with later concerns and distinctions, but most scholars for over at least the last century have said that the "middle" version is authentic. One passage of his came to mind upon reading your response, Hamilton.

Flee from divisions, as the beginning of evils. You must all follow the bishop, as Jesus Christ followed the Father, and follow the presbytery as you would the apostles; respect the deacons as the commandment of God. Let no one do anything that has to do with the church without the bishop. Only that Eucharist which is under the authority of the bishop (or whomever he himself designates) is to be considered valid. (2) Wherever ever the bishop appears, there let the congregation be; just as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the catholic church. It is not permissible either to baptize or to hold a love feast without the bishop. But whatever he approves is also pleasing to God, in order that everything you do may be trustworthy and valid. (Ignatius to the Smyrnaeans 8)

Holmes, M. W. (1999). The Apostolic Fathers: Greek texts and English translations (Updated ed., pp. 189–191). Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Books.

At the very least I hear from figures like this that as important as it indeed is to make some distinctions between the Church and Jesus, her bride, we dare not make this distinction a separation. In fact, much of what this Lutheran has heard from Orthodox is that we Westerners have often done that - or at least muddy things in our desire to make clear distinctions. They find it hard to imagine talking about the Holy Spirit without talking about Prayer - and when they talk about Prayer they want to tie closely together the Prayer of the Church as a a whole with all the prayers of all the faithful. And wrapped up in all of this, they also talk about the Holy Spirit with the Trinity itself - as being sent from the Father through the Son to the Church - and so our lives as Christians are wrapped up in and around the divine life of God.

And so I strongly suspect that when they hear you talking about "baptism of the Holy Spirit" they would either be confused about what you mean, or say that of course when we are Baptized, we are also sealed with the holy oil of Holy Spirit... And if you are talking about a spiritual experience much like what has been called the Beatific Vision in much of western mysticism, they would remind you that in the Orthodox descriptions of this, this Vision is followed/lived out in an earthly community.

That all said, I am neither an authoritative interpreter of Eastern Orthodoxy nor is this really a topic appropriate to discussion here.

SDG

Ken McGuire

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1050758#Comment_1050758

Of particular interest to many is Ignatius of Antioch, who left us some letters that he wrote when he was being transported from Antioch to Rome for his expected martyrdom. The textual history of these letters is arguably complex - with some abbreviating them, and others expending on them to update them with later concerns and distinctions, but most scholars for over at least the last century have said that the "middle" version is authentic.

Not detracting from your point, but a very nice intro qualifier to Ignatius. I grew up in the congregational world, but after all is said and done, as well as a victim of over-eager Ignatius helpers, in my mind, the NT succeeds or fails within his letters (apologetically, not necessarily theologically).

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1050722#Comment_1050722

Is funny that you reference Globalsecurity (I just think is hilarious). Did not see that coming from you.

I deliberately use a variety of sources so that forum users know I am not pushing a Catholic position/vocabulary but a broader position. Think of this choice as being in honor of my daughter-in-law who is a Lutheran pastor in Killeen, Tx (Fort Hood).

because that is the feeling that Catholic Charismatics have.

How many Charismatic priests have you taken to lunch? How much of the leadership of the state Charismatic Catholics organization have you managed in their role(s) of liturgical ministers? How much training in Catholic healing prayer do you have? (Think Jan Aikire and Leo Thomas's Healing Ministry: A Practical Guide. Yes, I have a sculpture by Fr. Leo Thomas.) See web excerpt on prayer for healing from a non-Dominican source.

I have shown to you what the core of Orthodox is by the link that Christopher posted:

MJ's note ends with a quote that sums up the Orthodox view on theology very nicely (and riffs of Evagrius of Pontus):

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

I am in all good will trying to point out the underneath key spiritual principles behind it all.

Please don't. It violates the no theology request of the guidelines and illustrates that your understanding is so different that you frequently misunderstand my posts. Your misrepresentation of the Catholic position verges on libelous - and again has no place in a thread on essential Orthodox reference works.

Which reference works would you list?

I found an interesting list at https://www.ocf.net/resources-for-bible-study/

[quote]

The Orthodox Study Bible: If you’re not already using it, the OSB has some helpful, basic articles and footnotes throughout the text.
An Interlinear or Side-by-Side Bible or New Testament: Using both the Greek and/or Hebrew text alongside the English text can really help when you get stumped on a passage or everyone has really different translations. Plus, it brings up other interesting questions as you go along. There are a few online sources like BibleHub or BibleStudyTools or you can find them on Amazon (here’s one suggestion). For this and other books, I suggest purchasing one or two OCF copies that can be passed down rather than having everyone in the chapter get one.
A Concordance: This nifty little book is basically a fancy index for the Bible, letting you find passages by topic. Again, there are some online tools on BibleStudyTools or you can go for Strong’s Concordance in print.
A Bible Dictionary: Ever come across a word and wonder the history of that word, idea, or object? A Bible Dictionary is a step up from Wikipedia. Try Vine’s.
Commentaries: There are about a million of these you could try, but the best, of course, are the Orthodox patristic commentaries, but certainly modern Orthodox (and non-Orthodox) authors have some things to add, too. Probably your local parish has a few of these you can borrow or might be willing to purchase them for the parish. Here are just a few:
- Ancient Christian Commentary Series: This gives you just little snippits from a number of Fathers, East and West, on each passage. This is great for hearing from the cloud of witnesses and getting to know which Fathers you connect with the best.
- The Bible and the Holy Fathers for Orthodox: Similar to Ancient Christian Commentaries in that it gives brief patristic passages, but compiled by an Orthodox author to be used with an Orthodox daily lectionary.
- St. Theophylact: St. Theophylact’s commentaries on Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Ephesians, Galatians are available on Amazon.
- St. John Chrysostom: Of course, St. John’s homilies are incredibly useful! You can find many of them for free in somewhat archaic English from Christian Classics Ethereal Library or you can order a volume such as this one. St. John has homilies on Genesis, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Psalms, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, Matthew, John, Acts, Romans, I Corinthians, II Corinthians, Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, I Thessalonians, II Thessalonians, I Timothy, II Timothy, Titus, Philemon, and Hebrews. Whew. I think that’s it.
- The Orthodox Bible Study Companion Series: Written by Fr. Lawrence Farley, these offer some simple and helpful reflections on the entire New Testament and are meant to be especially helpful if you are reading in the OSB.
- Fr. Paul Tarazi: A biblical scholar from St. Vlad’s, Fr. Paul has written on Genesis, Joshua, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Matthew, Mark, Luke, John (including his letters), Paul’s letters (with full volumes on Philippians, Colossians, Philemon, I Corinthians, II Corinthians, Romans, I Thessalonians, and Galatians.
ExeGenius: Have you seen this really cool tool put out by the GOA’s Y2AM team? Go through the Sunday Gospel readings word by word with this interactive commentary which pulls together interesting portions of Bible dictionaries, concordances, and commentaries as well as adds a few thoughts geared specifically toward youth and young adults.
OrthodoxYouth: These resources from the Antiochian Archdiocese include study guides, quizzes, and mp3s on the books of the New Testament for youth and young adults.
Orthodox Scripture Study: Thanks to the ACROD seminary Christ the Saviour, you can tune in to live lectures on the Gospel of John or the Gospel of Matthew. They also archive video and audio versions of the lectures.
Your Spiritual Advisor: You can never go wrong with having a priest helping you walk through the words of the Bible.

"Illumine our hearts, O Master Who lovest mankind, with the pure light of Thy divine knowledge. Open the eyes of our mind to the understanding of Thy gospel teachings. Implant also in us the fear of Thy blessed commandments, that trampling down all carnal desires, we may enter upon a spiritual manner of living, both thinking and doing such things as are well-pleasing unto Thee. For Thou art the illumination of our souls and bodies, O Christ our God, and unto Thee we ascribe glory, together with Thy Father, Who is from everlasting, and Thine all-holy, good, and life-creating Spirit, now and ever and unto ages of ages. Amen."

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1050799#Comment_1050799

Hamilton, I would caution against trying to understand the Orthodox (or Catholic) Church from books. It's a bit like trying to experience the Grand Canyon by looking at a map of Arizona. You see the territory, but you miss the point.

Returning to the original question, I would suggest the Septuagint, which was the version of the Bible that Jesus and the Apostles quoted, and differs markedly in places from the Masoretic texts: https://www.logos.com/product/16106/brentons-septuagint-english-translation

While it's not an "Orthodox" translation (such a beast doesn't exist in English), I like the Douay-Rheims https://www.logos.com/product/5202/douay-rheims-bible if for no other reason than that it has all (or at least most) of the old testament intact.

For those preferring the KJV, there is also the Cambridge Paragraph Bible https://www.logos.com/product/24557/the-new-cambridge-paragraph-bible-with-the-apocrypha-rev-ed

Going back to my original list These Truths We Hold is available on Logos: https://www.logos.com/product/42491/these-truths-we-hold-the-holy-orthodox-church-her-life-and-teachings

Catena Aurea contains some non-orthodox resources, but is otherwise a good commentary https://www.logos.com/product/5216/catena-aurea-commentary-on-the-four-gospels

Probably the biggest bang for the buck in terms of Patristic Resources is The Early Church Father's https://www.logos.com/product/7832/early-church-fathers-special-catholic-edition

With Logos' ability to index and search all of these resources, some of the value of Catena is diminished, but not all of the resources Aquinas used are in the other series, so there is still value there.

While missing the Menaion, Pentecostarion, and the Octoechos, The St. Tikhon's Orthodox Service Books bundle is a good reference for putting together or just reading the services: https://www.logos.com/product/42351/st-tikhons-orthodox-service-books

In extreme need, the Menaion can be replaced with the General Menaion (https://www.logos.com/product/32968/the-general-menaion), and the Sunday Octoechos is available here https://www.logos.com/product/33096/octoechos-or-the-book-of-eight-tones

Note that these are horrible translations, and that the General Menaion lacks a lot of the value of the full Menaion, as the general verses in praise of a saint can't compare to the specific verses written about that saint. It's better than nothing, but I'll still visit my jurisdictional website for the verses rather than rely on either of these resources. As an example:

The Sticheras of the Resurrection from the Octoechos, Tone 1.

ACCEPT our vespertine prayers, O Holy Lord, and grant us the remission of sins, for Thou alone hast made manifest unto the world the resurrection.

The Most Holy Governing Synod of Russia. (1898). Octoechos or The Book of Eight Tones: A Primer Containing the Sunday Service in Eight Tones. (N. Orloff, Trans.) (p. 1). London: J. Davy & Sons.

While I wouldn't use it as a general reference book, there is much value in being able to refer to the Ladder of Divine Ascent (And Hamilton, if you're looking for a systematic path to God, that's a great example) https://www.logos.com/product/120191/john-climacus-the-ladder-of-divine-ascent

As an aside, I don't think the indwelling of the Holy Spirit as understood by the average Pentecostal quite matches the indwelling of the Holy Spirit as understood by the average Orthodox. For one thing, one of the chief dangers for us is pride, and the gift of miracles without sufficient humility is a surefire way to inflame that particular passion. Miracle working Saints are common in the Orthodox church, but the average layman (or Priest, for that matter) is more likely to engage in simple intercessory prayer than to be directly given the gift of miracle working.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1050822#Comment_1050822

How could I have forgotten the Ancient Christian Commentaries Series?! That's a great resource. St.Theophylact's commentaries are also highly regarded, and sadly missing from my shelf. I have concerns with Fr. Paul Tarazi (see http://orthodoxinfo.com/phronema/fr-paul-tarazi-from-study-to-heresy.aspx).

And of course, every Orthodox Christian should turn to his spiritual father for guidance. But that's not a resource I can put on a bookshelf, or download to Logos.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1050828#Comment_1050828

I have concerns with Fr. Paul Tarazi (see http://orthodoxinfo.com/phronema/fr-paul-tarazi-from-study-to-heresy.aspx).

Thanks for the link. Has there been a response? I was left with an uneasy feeling re:the author expressing concern: was he reading the text as the average intended reader would or was he reading with the intent to find fault? When I next find myself reading Tarazi, I will pay closer attention to the perceived issues.

R. Mansfield

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1050827#Comment_1050827

While it's not an "Orthodox" translation (such a beast doesn't exist in English)

What about the St. Athanasius Academy Septuagint (SAAS), the OT translation in the Orthodox Study Bible? It’s not perfect, but it is definitely an Orthodox translation of the LXX and the most readable of any LXX translation in my experience.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1050827#Comment_1050827

I like the Douay-Rheims https://www.logos.com/product/5202/douay-rheims-bible if for no other reason than that it has all (or at least most) of the old testament intact.

The Ecumenical canon NRSV includes the complete canon for both the Greek and the Slavic Orthodox. In Logos, using the NRSV as your highest priority Bible is the only way to get the entire ecumenical canon treated as canonical.

Ladder of Divine Ascent (And Hamilton, if you're looking for a systematic path to God, that's a great example) https://www.logos.com/product/120191/john-climacus-the-ladder-of-divine-ascent

This book has been requested/suggested as traditional Lenten reading plan multiple times. Thinking of Lent (or the Great Fast)? Traditional reading schedule for John Climacus; What do you read repeatedly ... or seasonally; . . .

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1050758#Comment_1050758

Thanks for the post Ken.

I do not want to start a theological discussion type exchange here. Let it be enough to say that for some groups the Bible has more authority than any writing by any believer.

John 10:1 “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter the sheepfold by the door but climbs in by another way, that man is a thief and a robber. 2 But he who enters by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. 3 To him the gatekeeper opens. The sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 4When he has brought out all his own, he goes before them, and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice. 5 A stranger they will not follow, but they will flee from him, for they do not know the voice of strangers.

If what any Bishop does or says goes against the expressed will of Jesus, His nature and character, I am not to follow, submit, take.

A true Bishop appointed by God (not an institution out of alignment with God's revealed revelation), I can follow. But you must understand that salvation is an individual thing. I am responsible to make sure that the persons that wants to be in charge of my growth is truly pointing me to the one and only savior: Jesus Christ.

Not all the Bishops have the individual persons salvation as top priority, in ideal life they should, but many times they do not.

and so our lives as Christians are wrapped up in and around the divine life of God.

We can perfectly agree about this one. But in real life it does not happen, or people fall short of what restored Koinonia with God throgh the baptism of the Holy Spirit is supposed to be.

So that we are clear of what I mean by the term "baptism of the Holy Spirit" see:

https://ebooks.faithlife.com/products/10782/awakened-by-the-spirit-reclaiming-the-forgotten-gift-of-god

I could not get the page number to make a reference so:

Note that I am not promoting division, etc, Any one believer in any denomination can actually seek for that baptism of the Holy Spirit, which by the way was the second mission that Jesus (Lord and Savior) came to do: to baptize us with the Holy Spirit so that we can restore g:koinonia with God.

The experience of the Holy Spirit as depicted above, is what Orthodox devotees like the article posted http://www.pravoslavie.ru/47866.html go through I suppose, and is independent of denomination, group, tradition, etc.

Now getting more back in topic:

Are Orthodox systematic theologies included in the systematic theology section in the passage guide to your knowledge?

If not, which ones would you include?

Are there any systematic theologies that you find compatible with the Orthodox faith?

https://ebooks.faithlife.com/products/22623/truth-aflame

https://ebooks.faithlife.com/products/167643/renewal-theology-systematic-theology-from-a-charismatic-perspective

What are your favorite systematic theologies and the like both Orthodox and non-Orthodox if you care to share?

Thanks for the input, and thanks for Christlike exchange, thoughtful, tactful, respectful...

Kind Regards.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1050799#Comment_1050799

I deliberately use a variety of sources so that forum users know I am not pushing a Catholic position/vocabulary but a broader position. Think of this choice as being in honor of my daughter-in-law who is a Lutheran pastor in Killeen, Tx (Fort Hood).

I think is great, do not get me wrong, I think all true truth comes from God who is the bestower of all good things.

How many Charismatic priests have you taken to lunch? How much of the leadership of the state Charismatic Catholics organization have you managed in their role(s) of liturgical ministers? How much training in Catholic healing prayer do you have?

Remember that in my country the majority is Catholic. I was born a Catholic. I have many friends well involved in all kinds of Catholic endeavors, and we talk a lot about different things.

I listen to what their concerns are. I try to help them out to develop more their spirituality. Many times they find barriers for what they want to do.

I tell them not to give up, to keep working where God has put them, and to learn more about different parts of faith in Christ, even from different groups.

To many of them the situation is frustrating.

Your misrepresentation of the Catholic position verges on libelous

Do you think I feel not bad when scandals with the clergy in the Catholic Church happens, and the leaders seem to not act decisively? Do you know how much it has affected normal Catholics here?

My concern is: can a system be developed, so that by the use of the gifts of the Holy Spirit persons not suited for clergy are not permitted from getting to positions where misconduct can happen?

In one of the articles that you mention the term "word of knowledge" is used. Why is not such concept used to prevent abuses by clergy?

From an independent perspective an independent Christian can see in the Bible: "by their fruits you will know them", are abuses fruit of the Holy Spirit? Is there a major problem going on?

Recently a Catholic Priest in a neighbor country fled to ours because of a victim denouncing abuse, is that what Christianity is supposed to be?

Why is the Church not doing a more proactive system to check what the clergy is doing? why not develop systems of overwatch to prevent problems?

Do I hate Catholics? Are we quick to point fingers to other believers before looking into our own problems?

After high school graduation I was invited by a friend to join Benedictines (he did), I told him that I would only join Franciscans, but I did not feel I had what it takes to be a monk.

Do you know how many Catholics we have helped? and want to continue helping?

I see a lot of good things happening with the Charismatic Movement within the Catholic Church, but then I also hear what problems those in such go through.

"To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Best quote, I have mentioned before. and if you see even though it probably was uttered in a particular context, it actually applies to any Christian believer in any denomination.

Being connected to God is independent of denomination. Now if when that happens, then the denomination rejects you, that is another thing.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1050827#Comment_1050827

Thanks Christopher for the recommendations.

True Christians, receiving the true Holy Spirit experience, are the same as there is only one Holy Spirit.

In many Pentecostal / Charismatic denominations, there are fake persons, portraying as the legit thing. I do think that all true sheep should pray for the gift of discernment of Spirits, to be able to tell who is who.

One of the misunderstanding that I have found (on many traditions, groups, denominations), is the concept of the miracle worker.

The Miracle worker is Jesus alone! He is the vine, without Him, nothing happens ever. Any persons that thinks that is a miracle worker is out of whack.

We are vessels chosen for honorable use, but we are the recipient of the Holy Spirit (the remedy), not the remedy.

Being a living stone part of the new temple of God (body of Christ), does not mean that we are the Holy Spirit that indwells that new temple.

Big difference.

I have much respect for Orthodox believers, because they are crystal clear that theosis does not imply that we will eventually get self-existence (aseity).

So true baptism of the Holy Spirit is the same for Orthodox, Catholic, Pentecostal, Charismatic, etc. This concept is the one I am trying to push.

Now, do you know about a Book of saints for the Orthodox tradition, just like the one that Catholics have?

Are Orthodox systematic theologies included in the systematic theology section in the passage guide to your knowledge?

If not, which ones would you include?

Are there any systematic theologies that you find compatible with the Orthodox faith?

https://ebooks.faithlife.com/products/22623/truth-aflame

https://ebooks.faithlife.com/products/167643/renewal-theology-systematic-theology-from-a-charismatic-perspective

Thanks ahead of time for your input.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1050895#Comment_1050895

There are several books of saints, one of them is even available on Logos: https://www.logos.com/product/173681/a-daily-calendar-of-the-saints

I would also suggest the Prologue of Ochrid. It's not on logos, but can be accessed at the wayback machine, conveniently linked by day here: http://www.rocor.org.au/?page_id=925

St. Dimitri of Rostov did a monumental "Lives of the saints", but it is, sadly, not completely available in English.

One of the books I suggested was Orthodox Dogmatic Theology by Protopresbyter Michael Pomazansky, and I stand by that recommendation. A search of other resources suggested Orthodox Theology: An Introduction by Vladimir Lossky (warning, he is dense). The Orthodox Way, by Metropolitan Kallistos Ware, The Orthodox Church by Sergius Bulgakov, An Exact Exposition of the Orthodox Faith by St. John of Damascus, The Mystery of Faith by Metropolitan Hilarion Alfeyev.

Regrettably none of these are on Logos, but I know that An Exact Exposition is available on Kindle.

A Daily Calendar of the Saints by Lawrence Farley
Orthodox Dogmatic Theology by Protopresbyter Michael Pomazansky
Orthodox Theology: An Introduction by Vladimir Lossky
The Orthodox Way, by Metropolitan Kallistos Ware,
The Orthodox Church by Sergius Bulgakov,
An Exact Exposition of the Orthodox Faith by St. John of Damascus,
The Mystery of Faith by Metropolitan Hilarion Alfeyev

I don't think anyone would argue that Jesus Christ is the true Wonderworker, but to say that is to miss the point being made about the saints.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1050901#Comment_1050901

Also, you may find value in Reading Augsburg and Constantinople. It was a series of letters between the Lutheran theologians at Tubingen University in Germany, and Patriarch Jeremiah II of Constantinople. While there are likely significant theological differences between Lutherans (especially immediately after the reformation) and modern day Pentecostals, it is, in a sense, where all things Protestant began.

If you prefer, you can read excerpts here: http://orthodoxinfo.com/ecumenism/jeremiah.aspx

You've mentioned Renewal Theology and Truth Aflame a couple of times, and while they may be worthwhile (I'd have to read them), I would be hesitant to recommend either. The fundamental assumptions are likely to be different. Protestant Theology was a direct reaction to Catholic problems. The East has had its share of problems, but they were different (especially by that time, several hundred years after the schism of 1054). As a result the Protestant answers didn't make sense to the Orthodox questions.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1050884#Comment_1050884

Do you think I feel not bad when scandals with the clergy in the Catholic Church happens, and the leaders seem to not act decisively? Do you know how much it has affected normal Catholics here?

I know how it effects all Catholics ... and the various ways they have found to deal with it ... and its harm ... and a number of Catholics who have sought shelter in other ACELO churches. I also know of other denominations in the US have have similar problems. However, true Christians do not allow their beliefs and worship to be destroyed by men who have to some degree succumbed to Satan.

I also can see in your post (a) nothing that relates to the topic of the thread - essential Orthodox Bible study resources; (b) nothing that relates to Logos, it's products, the use of its products; (c) nothing that shows a serious effort to understand responses to your questions. Therefore, I am reporting you for abuse. Whether or not Logos chooses to respond is irrelevant to me.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1050843#Comment_1050843

What about the St. Athanasius Academy Septuagint (SAAS),

There are a couple of projects to create English language versions of the Bible from Orthodox sources, but none that has received any official backing or liturgical use (at least that I'm aware of). As a study bible, that may well be a very good option, though.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1050895#Comment_1050895

Are Orthodox systematic theologies included in the systematic theology section in the passage guide to your knowledge?

From the documentation:

[quote]

Group: Patristic

• Augustine of Hippo, Saint Augustine: Christian Instruction; Admonition and Grace; The Christian Combat; Faith, Hope and Charity

• John Damascene, Saint John of Damascus: Writings

• Roberts, Alexander; Donaldson, James; Coxe, A. Cleveland; Tertullian; Minucius Felix; Commodianus; Origen, Ante-Nicene Fathers 4: Fathers of the Third Century: Tertullian, Part Fourth; Minucius Felix; Commodian; Origen, Parts First and Second

• Schaff, Philip; Augustine of Hippo, Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers 1.3: St. Augustin: On the Holy Trinity, Doctrinal Treatises, Moral Treatises

• Schaff, Philip; Augustine of Hippo, Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers 1.3: St. Augustin: On the Holy Trinity, Doctrinal Treatises, Moral Treatises (Catholic Edition)

• Augustine of Hippo, Seventeen Short Treatises of S. Augustine, Bishop of Hippo, Translated, with Notes and Indices

• Schaff, Philip; Augustine of Hippo, Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers 1.2: St. Augustin’s City of God and Christian Doctrine

• Schaff, Philip; Augustine of Hippo, Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers 1.2: St. Augustin’s City of God and Christian Doctrine (Catholic Edition)

• Schaff, Philip; Wace, Henry; Hilary of Poitiers; John Damascene, Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers 2.9: St. Hilary of Poitiers, John of Damascus

• Schaff, Philip; Wace, Henry; Hilary of Poitiers; John Damascene, Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers 2.9: St. Hilary of Poitiers, John of Damascus (Catholic Edition)

Rick Brannan and Peter Venable, Systematic Theology Cross-References: Dataset Documentation (Bellingham, WA: Faithlife, 2015).

[quote]

Group: Modern Orthodox

• Yannaras, Christos, Elements of Faith: An Introduction to Orthodox Theology

Rick Brannan and Peter Venable, Systematic Theology Cross-References: Dataset Documentation (Bellingham, WA: Faithlife, 2015).

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1050909#Comment_1050909

Thanks for the input Christopher.

As a result the Protestant answers didn't make sense to the Orthodox questions.

In your view what are some of the principal questions that have dominated Orthodox theology?

For reference:

Jewish: Who is in control? (God of course)

What is God's nature? God is one.

Most western christian worldview based groups:

Origin, Purpose, ways n means (method), n destiny. Only later due to deviation from Apostle's doctrine and the development of heresies: Authority (in the here and now).

Different groups then focused on certain aspects at different times.

Wesley: perfection... Relative perfection is different from absolute perfection. Jesus Christ is, was and will always be absolutely perfect.

We as humans (created) can only aspire to relative perfection:

Enoch (walked with God), Daniel, Joseph of Egypt, John the loved Apostle, etc. had relatively more perfection than David, Moses, Jacob, etc.

Then cessation of gifts: it seems that Augustine was the first one to suggest such, and he had to take it back because of the amount of miracles happening in the place where he congregated.

Calvin seemed not to know that was so, and kept pushing cessation of HS gifts with the resulting over rationalistic groups found now.

What in your opinion have been some thrusts in the Orthodox Church?

From what I have read, they had such problem with varying interpretations of the Scripture, that they focused more in the indwelling of the Spirit of God.

I am not sure how you go about ascertaining that some believer is legit.

Finally a resource in Spanish gives some tests to check the legit status of Churches:

1) what do they think of Jesus Christ (Lord and Savior, hypostasis of God is the most accepted view).

2) how is their morality?

Can a tree of a kind reproduce a different tree? not quite. True Church and true believers, try to stumble up the Holiness highway with the help of the Holy Spirit. and is because of that Spirit they will make it.

3) Social action?

Catholic social doctrine is advanced, and if was followed closely, a lot of unwanted events and situations could be mitigated. The use of cooperatives is a good way to help with the economics of family. Catholics have always wanted to help, and have done so. Here in my country, they came to help a lot of persons with cooperatives. But what surprises me is that the Jesuits that were so gung ho, and helpful, even have a forbidden book list that they are not allowed to read. That is strange, and I do not understand it.

4) I would add: the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and the identification and development of the gifts He bestows.

Are any of the points above dealt with in the systematics of Orthodox groups, are there others?

Thanks for the input.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1050949#Comment_1050949

However, true Christians do not allow their beliefs and worship to be destroyed by men who have to some degree succumbed to Satan.

Exactly, and this is commendable of the sheep, and the uninvolved priests. But, what is the responsibility of the high level leaders? Are they so quick to have strict norms and rules about doctrine, and then fail in the control of the morals.

Therefore, I am reporting you for abuse. Whether or not Logos chooses to respond is irrelevant to me.

Your call. you must do what your conscience compels you to.

I do think that the conversation is helpful in that problems, questions, situations can be brought to the light, and comments can be made by members of the Orthodox Church that may have ideas and / or recommend resources.

There are a lot of resources that can be browsed to get a glimpse of the problem:

https://ebooks.faithlife.com/search?query=abuse%20in%20the%20church&sortBy=Relevance&page=1&filters=status-live_Status&ownership=all&limit=60

But I do not know if the Orthodox brothers have gone through similar situations and what their solutions have been.

Remember, Paul was a master blaster Bible student, tradition follower, law abiding, etc. and he was out of whack until met resurrected Jesus Himself, who set him aright.

Kind of the point I am trying to make... Bible, resources, books, interacting may help us to an extent, but until we meet Him, we will not be significantly changed.

Quoting a very wise believer:

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

You started questioning me, without knowing my story, my background, my intentions, I did not report you for that. I know this medium lends itself to many misunderstandings, you have to understand that I am not attacking you.

I am pointing that there are flaws in systems (mostly in all groups, and traditions), and part of it I see as leaving on the side the gifts of the Holy Spriit.

I do not want to think that many groups move away from that because is the Holy Spirit the one in control of such.

Orthodox Church may give some insight on how they have organized and operated in the realm of the Holy Spirit, maybe there are huge lessons for all the western traditions.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1050967#Comment_1050967

Group: Modern Orthodox

• Yannaras, Christos, Elements of Faith: An Introduction to Orthodox Theology

Rick Brannan and Peter Venable, Systematic Theology Cross-References: Dataset Documentation (Bellingham, WA: Faithlife, 2015).

Thank you MJ.