Essential reference works
Which reference works (on or off logos) do you consider essential in either bible study or sermon prep? Prior to getting Logos I would have listed:
- Young's Analytical Concordance of the Bible
- The Zondervan Pictorial Bible Dictionary
- Catena Aurea
- A good English Dictionary
- These Truths We Hold
Logos makes Young's somewhat redundant, and has allowed me to access more Patristic commentary directly, lessening the value of Catena Aurea. It has also highlighted the deficiencies in the Patristic resources I own and in my language skills.
Which reference works would you list?
Comments
-
Hi Christopher:
As a non expert, I like certain very basic books to help me.
From an article related to 9Marks we can see that there are different areas, that may require different resources:
I particularly like very much: (remember I am not formally trained)
https://www.logos.com/product/27749/survivors-guide-to-theology
Anchor Yale Dictionary, Old ISBE has some neat stuff,
https://www.logos.com/product/4897/the-ways-of-our-god-an-approach-to-biblical-theology
https://www.logos.com/product/16107/dictionary-of-bible-themes,
https://www.logos.com/product/8537/the-jewish-encyclopedia,
Logos Pro Team had some recommendations on good resources for study, but I cannot find the exact article:
https://blog.logos.com/2016/04/top-bible-study-resources-picked-logos-pros/
In a similar article they listed:
https://www.logos.com/product/27277/new-dictionary-of-biblical-theology
In the forums, many persons have given recommendations for resources, an important one for me was:
https://www.logos.com/product/46349/lexham-glossary-of-theology
There are good Mobile ed courses that clarify many concepts, and that recommend good resources according to particular areas.
As you can see I am more drawn to Systematic Theology and topical studies.
One idea is for you to enter "Logos Pro Team" in the search box of Logos Talk blog site and explore what they have to say:
https://blog.logos.com/2016/01/5-ways-the-logos-pros-can-help-with-your-bible-study/
https://blog.logos.com/2010/10/improving_your_bible_study_with_dictionaries/
I have a collection with all my dictionaries / encyclopedias, and some suggested resources by the Logos Pro Team, and I use it to search for particular topics to get a rough idea of the conceptual envelope associated with it.
https://blog.logos.com/2016/12/people-really-studied-bibles-2017/
https://blog.logos.com/2015/07/how-to-grasp-the-flow-of-thought-in-a-passage/
https://blog.logos.com/2018/05/study-concept-senses-ring/
You must remember that many tools in Logos actually harness many resources to help you with the task at hand.
https://blog.logos.com/2017/07/find-every-eschatological-reference-entire-bible/
https://blog.logos.com/2017/07/use-bible-sense-lexicon-logos/
https://blog.logos.com/2017/06/find-everywhere-jesus-discusses-subject/
https://blog.logos.com/2017/06/search-connections-greek-english-bibles/
Then there are timeless classics like:
https://blog.logos.com/2014/06/how-do-you-use-logos-dave-moser/
As you can see, there are certain resources that are very good reference works. but Logos software is a platform that goes beyond that to provide tools, workflows, and the like that allow more to be done more effectively.
The amount of help from the Logos Pro Team and others is large and invaluable in tackling tasks suited to particular areas as depicted in the graphic above.
Hope some of the above info is of help to you.
Kind regards.
0 -
Thank you for the well thought out reply, Hamilton. I will admit the intent was less to gather resources than generate discussion and traffic in the Orthodox products forum. I appreciate your contribution.
0 -
Ok, sorry.
Any thoughts on good Orthodox systematic theology?
What are some of the key loci, that you think are missing in the systematic theologies of other traditions / denominations?
Tanks ahead of time for your input.
0 -
Well since theology is the study of God, I would have to say that the primary deficit in non-Orthodox books of theology (at least from an Orthodox perspective) is that they are wrong.
Also, Orthodoxy has never been overly concerned with systematically organizing anything. It is probably the single most disorganized organized religion I've ever seen. Having said that I would suggest
- Orthodox Dogmatic Theology by Michael Pomazansky,
- Surprisingly not present in Logos, but available here https://www.sainthermanmonastery.com/product-p/odt.htm
- An Exact Exposition of the Orthodox Faith by St. John of Damascus
- https://www.logos.com/product/27482/nicene-and-post-nicene-fathers-29-st-hilary-of-poitiers-john-of-damascus).
- Orthodox Spirituality by Dmitru Staniloe.
- https://www.logos.com/product/54455/orthodox-spirituality-a-practical-guide-for-the-faithful-and-a-definitive-manual-for-the-scholar It is definitely on my "to read list."
I have not read the last one, but it is highly regarded and may actually do more to explain how Orthodoxy views our interface with God, and the ultimate goal of the Christian life.
0 -
Thanks for the recommendations.
Any particular recommendation on the topic of "indwelling of the Holy Spirit", and His relation to deification (theosis).
And do you know if Orthodox groups split over Spiritual gifts cessation vs continuationism?
Lastly, how do you go about moral theology? do you treat it as christian ethics part of philosophy?
Thanks ahead of time for you valuable input.
0 -
Christopher Grant said:
Which reference works (on or off logos) do you consider essential in either bible study or sermon prep?
For the Orthodox perspective, that is not an easy question. I would suggest:
- the books of Johanna Manley as one thread to follow;
- The commentaries of Theophylact of Ohrid are a definite must.
- Kallistos Ware provides a methodology so anything that helps you implement that is a plus ... access to summaries of typology, liturgical documents, sermons ...
- I've seen only a bit of the Chrysostom Bible project but it may deserve mention.
But remember that I am Catholic leaning towards the Eastern rites and I stick to English sources.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
0 -
Hamilton Ramos said:
Any particular recommendation on the topic of "indwelling of the Holy Spirit", and His relation to deification (theosis).
Abiding in the Indwelling Trinity by George A Maloney S.J. (an Eastern Rite Catholic who retired as Orthodox)
Also of possible interest The Orthodox Understanding of Salvation: “Theosis” in Scripture and Tradition by Christopher Veniamin
Hamilton Ramos said:And do you know if Orthodox groups split over Spiritual gifts cessation vs continuationism?
No ... there are very few splits in Orthodox history. Their groupings are ethnic. The recent Ukraine scuffle is typical of their "splits". From Wikipedia, quoting three separate sources: "The shared beliefs of Orthodoxy, and its theology, exist within Holy Tradition and cannot be separated from it, for their meaning is not expressed in mere words alone. Doctrine cannot be understood unless it is prayed. Doctrine must also be lived in order to be prayed, for without action, the prayer is idle and empty, a mere vanity, and therefore the theology of demons" Think holistic not analytic theology/philosophy.
Hamilton Ramos said:Lastly, how do you go about moral theology? do you treat it as christian ethics part of philosophy?
Moral theology is simply another aspect of spiritual development. See the anthology Pilgrimage of the Heart: A Treasury of Eastern Christian Spirituality by George A. Maloney. Ethics comes from Scripture, sacraments, patristic writings, canon law and a few other sources of spiritual development. Or you can look at the bibliography for a more Western influenced writings on ethics:
[quote]
- John Breck, The Sacred Gift of Life: Orthodox Christianity and Bioethics (1999) ISBN 978-0881411836
- John Breck, Stages on Life's Way: Orthodox Thinking on Bioethics, with Lynn Breck (2006). ISBN 978-0881412994
- H. Tristram Engelhardt, Jr., The Foundations of Christian Bioethics (2000) ISBN 902651557X
- Vigen Guroian, Notes Toward an Eastern Orthodox Ethic. The Journal of Religious Ethics. Vol. 9, No. 2 (Fall, 1981), pp. 228-244.
- Vigen Guroian, Seeing Worship as Ethics: An Orthodox Perspective. The Journal of Religious Ethics. Vol. 13, No. 2 (Fall, 1985), pp. 332-359.
- Vigen Guroian, Life's Living Toward Dying: A Theological and Medical-Ethical Study (1996). ISBN 978-0802841902
- Vigen Guroian, Incarnate Love: Essays in Orthodox Ethics, 2nd revised and expanded edition (2002). ISBN 978-0268031695
- Vigen Guroian, Ethics after Christendom: Toward an Ecclesial Christian Ethics (2006). ISBN 978-1592447671
- Stanley Harakas, Contemporary Moral Issues Facing the Orthodox Christian (1982). ISBN 978-0937032244
- Stanley Harakas, For the Health of Body and Soul: An Eastern Orthodox Introduction to Bioethics (1983). ISBN 978-0916586423
- Stanley Harakas, Let Mercy Abound: Social Concern in the Greek Orthodox Church (1994). ISBN 978-0916586614
- Stanley Harakas, Living the Faith: The Praxis of Eastern Orthodox Ethics (1993). ISBN 978-0937032923
- Stanley Harakas, Toward Transfigured Life: The Theoria of Eastern Orthodox Ethics (1983). ISBN 978-0937032282
- Stanley Harakas, Wholeness of Faith and Life: Eastern Orthodox Ethics. Vol. 1: Patristic Ethics ISBN 978-1885652263. Vol. 2: Church Life Ethics (2004) ISBN 978-1885652294. Vol. 3: Orthodox Social Ethics (2004) ISBN 978-1885652300
- Christos Yannaras, The Freedom of Morality (1984). ISBN 0881410284
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
0 -
Christopher Grant said:
Well since theology is the study of God, I would have to say that the primary deficit in non-Orthodox books of theology (at least from an Orthodox perspective) is that they are wrong.
Hmmm ...I believe it is a tautology to say the theological books that are correct are orthodox (right opinion) and those that are incorrect are non-orthodox. But in 70+ years, I have never found the denominational label attached to an author to be more than a loose indication of the orthodoxy of a book. Although the denominational label does indicate the topics in which the author is most likely to be orthodox.
Christopher Grant said:Also, Orthodoxy has never been overly concerned with systematically organizing anything. It is probably the single most disorganized organized religion I've ever seen.
This is the largest gap between Orthodox and Catholic - a cultural gap not a theological one. It is interesting to watch Orthodoxy in the West as it begins to develop the academic papers and books tradition that Catholics have dealt with for centuries. It is slowly narrowing the gap.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
0 -
MJ. Smith said:Christopher Grant said:
Well since theology is the study of God, I would have to say that the primary deficit in non-Orthodox books of theology (at least from an Orthodox perspective) is that they are wrong.
Hmmm ...I believe it is a tautology to say the theological books that are correct are orthodox (right opinion) and those that are incorrect are non-orthodox. But in 70+ years, I have never found the denominational label attached to an author to be more than a loose indication of the orthodox of a book. Although the denominational label does indicate the topics in which the author is most likely to be orthodox.
Christopher Grant said:Also, Orthodoxy has never been overly concerned with systematically organizing anything. It is probably the single most disorganized organized religion I've ever seen.
This is the largest gap between Orthodox and Catholic - a cultural gap not a theological one. It is interesting to watch Orthodoxy in the West as it begins to develop the academic papers and books tradition that Catholics have dealt with for centuries. It is slowly narrowing the gap.
Mr Grant ... your comments ... what a nice addition to MJ's great forum comments. (I'm from the 'wrong' group.)
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
0 -
I was hoping MJ would post a response.
The Orthodox Church never stopped believing in God's ability to work miracles through his saints, and that's really never been a point of contention. The biggest points of contention are over the calendar (should we use the "new Julian" or the old Julian calendar), and should the Patriarch of Constantinople be like the pope. The ethnic splits rarely result in a breaking of Eucharistic communion. Ukraine is a troubling exception to that. I would suggest St. Seraphim of Sarov's conversation with Motovilov as a good jumping off point on the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
There is no particular emphasis on philosophy in Orthodoxy, but there is an emphasis on asceticism. To get a grip on the Orthodox approach to morality I would suggest Way of the Ascetics (not available on Logos), the Alphabetical Sayings of the Desert Fathers, and for a more contemporary look With Pain and Love for Contemporary Man by St. Paisios of Mount Athos.
0 -
I meant no disrespect to those who aren't Orthodox. If you are looking for the theological views of a particular group, it makes more sense to read the books from that group than to read something else. Calvin's Institutes would teach me very little about the Theology of the Roman Catholic Church, while The Catechism of the Catholic Church would teach me little about the Theology of the Presbyterians.
If, as an Orthodox Deacon, I was asked to recommend a book on the Theology of the Orthodox Church, and I suggested that the inquirer read Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma by Ludwig Ott, my Bishop might rightly decide that I needed to go take a few remedial classes. If someone asked me to explain what I felt was lacking in Mr. Ott's work, even as close as the Catholic and Orthodox Churches are theologically, that would be a major undertaking. To do so without bruising feelings would be even harder.
A better approach would be to say "If you want to understand Orthodox theology, read the works of Orthodox theologians." Even better, if you want to understand the Orthodox church, attend an Orthodox service.
0 -
MJ's note ends with a quote that sums up the Orthodox view on theology very nicely (and riffs of Evagrius of Pontus):
Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."
MJ. Smith said:This is the largest gap between Orthodox and Catholic - a cultural gap not a theological one. It is interesting to watch Orthodoxy in the West as it begins to develop the academic papers and books tradition that Catholics have dealt with for centuries. It is slowly narrowing the gap.
I can't agree more. There are two primary points of contention between Orthodoxy and Catholicism: 1) the position and scope of authority of the Pope, and 2) the filioque. There have always been cultural differences, and unfortunately those seem to be enough to prevent the two groups from working to find a path through those two rather large points.
0 -
Christopher Grant said:
I meant no disrespect to those who aren't Orthodox.
Please don't misunderstand my 'wrong' ... a new perspective is a welcome addition. By way of explanation, in terms of personal 'theology', a literal take on the Writings (vs doctrines), when viewed as a circle, is closest to the Orthodox/Catholic, and opposite the evangelical.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
0 -
Thanks MJ for the information on the resources.
Some of them are not available in electronic form, but others are.
MJ. Smith said:Moral theology is simply another aspect of spiritual development.
Wonder if there is a relationship between the following (or are they independent and should be worked on individually):
Stages of Faith: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_W._Fowler
Stages of moral development: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_Kohlberg%27s_stages_of_moral_development
Spiritual intelligence: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spiritual_intelligence
Moral intelligence: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_intelligence
It would be awesome to bring the wisdom of the past (across traditions) and the sophisticated methodology of the present, to see how it all jibes using modern frameworks like the above, but always under the guidance of the Holy Spirit and making sure that there is no contradiction with the progressive revelation as found in the Scripture.
Kind regards.
0 -
Thanks Christopher for the links and the info.
From: http://www.pravoslavie.ru/47866.html
"However prayer, fasting, vigil and all the other Christian practices may be, they do not constitute the aim of our Christian life. Although it is true that they serve as the indispensable means of reaching this end, the true aim of our Christian life consists of the acquisition of the Holy Spirit of God. As for fasts, and vigils, and prayer, and almsgiving, and every good deed done for Christ's sake, are the only means of acquiring the Holy Spirit of God. Mark my words, only good deeds done for Christ's sake brings us the fruits of the Holy Spirit. All that is not done for Christ's sake, even though it be good, brings neither reward in the future life nor the grace of God in this life. That is why our Lord Jesus Christ said: He who does not gather with Me scatters (Luke 11:23). Not that a good deed can be called anything but gathering, even though a deed is not done for Christ's sake, it is still considered good. The Scriptures say: In every nation he who fears God and does what is right is acceptable to Him(Acts 10:35)."
I am surprised by the paragraph above, I see the aim seems to be the same aim the Charismatics and Pentecostals have, they just do it by different emphasis on certain means.
Very interesting, worth taking a closer look, thanks for sharing.
0 -
Hamilton Ramos said:
Wonder if there is a relationship between the following (or are they independent and should be worked on individually):
When dealing with Orthodoxy, everything begins in the liturgy - theology, moral development, spiritual growth ... - it all derives from the Divine Liturgy. Models such as you refer to, are useful as a framework to study development but they don't reflect what happens in an individual case - they are models not reality. Liturgy is the teacher/nurturer of faith, moral development, spiritual intelligence, moral intelligence for the entire population ... individuals absorb what they are ready to absorb and what meets their immediate needs. Think of liturgy as the Great Feast (Word & Sacrifice) in which people eat that which meets their needs - it is too expansive to even taste it all. But like a feast's nutrition, the nutrients interact with one another in very complex ways. One can emphasize a particular element when needed, but one cannot work on elements separately. For Orthodoxy (or Eastern Catholic) think holistic, think liturgy.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
0 -
Christopher Grant said:
There are two primary points of contention between Orthodoxy and Catholicism: 1) the position and scope of authority of the Pope, and 2) the filioque.
Re: the Roman Pope (not the Coptic Pope) have you read "The way forward after the Catholic-Orthodox agreement on primacy and synodality"? It provides some detail on where the dispute arises - it is a surprisingly narrow (but deep) disagreement.
Re: the filioque, have you read US bishops' "The Filioque: A Church Dividing Issue?: An Agreed Statement"? For those reading this thread who have no clue what we are talking about, this is a good summary of the history of the dispute. Also note that the Eastern Rite Catholics are not required to use the filioque ... it is the Western rites that use it. It is not a Catholic/Orthodox split but a East/West split partially explained by heresies that arose in the West but not in the East.
Re: the third element I am used to seeing as a real division is assumption vs. dormition of BVM/Theotokos. "Dormition or Assumption?" provides the Orthodox perspective on the dispute.
Note to Hamilton Ramos: I think the brevity of this list of doctrinal disputes across this "great schism" illustrates why Orthodoxy has not divided over issues such as you mentioned. Essentially, Catholics, Eastern and Oriental Orthodox represent 1,635,000,000 (about 70% of Christians worldwide) a surprisingly solid block of beliefs - Anglo-Catholics and High Lutherans also belong to this block.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
0 -
MJ:
Liturgy as key makes sense.
Problem is that different groups see its functions in varied ways.
From what I understand (from Eastern culture) of which Jesus was part of, discipleship means "teaching them to obey what Jesus said", if it is not done in a mentoring way (applied to the whole life), there may be substandard development in certain areas.
In charismatic / pentecostal liturgies, the gifts of the Holy Spirit are used to point to: needed further development to individuals and ministry teams,
important areas needing priority (e.g. intercessory prayer to avoid the new country government to do huge mistakes), etc.
Gifts are also used to forewarn of impeding unwanted events (natural), and the need to pray and fast to have God mitigate the effect of it.
There are many gifts that the Holy Spirit bestows to individual believers. Many think that those wanting to pursue further the development of such, need to go to formal university training.
Historically, the gifts were more in hands on development in the local congregation and involved in support of one of three key missions:
Exalt Jesus Christ.
Prepare believers in line with their life mission / ministry and taking into consideration their gifts.
Looking for the lost.
So using the models:
Stages of faith: there are key doctrines and Jesus' ordinances that have to be internalized and applied till they become 2nd nature.
Then before ministering there has to be objective evidence that the Holy Spirit has been acquired to an extent that proper Faith can
be lived out and reproduced.
Gifts have to be developed usually working with more experienced ministers that have that same gift.
Stages of moral development: regardless of our Christian growth, we all have blind spots, and usually carry with us hidden sin and other messes.
The gifts of discernment of spirits, etc. are needed so God uncovers such in a mentoring relation, and relevant ministry support is used
for help.
Spiritual intelligence: Like checklist for Godliness, the decalogue, the sermon on the mount, etc. are used as guides to benchmark the progress along
the spiritual formation / growth continuum.
Many of our admired Fathers, the Jewish religion and other referents had systems, we are the ones gone off the tangent most of the time.
Jews: they thought that their religion needed 3 key component from the point of view of the individual for it to have effect:
Education, Worship, good deeds.
Even Peter presented a reasonable system to grow in grace and Godliness (always under the influence of the Holy Spirit):
2 Peter 1:5 For this very reason, make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue, and virtue with knowledge, 6 and knowledge with self-control, and self-control with steadfastness, and steadfastness with godliness,7 and godliness with brotherly affection, and brotherly affection with love. 8 For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they keep you from being ineffective or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For whoever lacks these qualities is so nearsighted that he is blind, having forgotten that he was cleansed from his former sins. 10 Therefore, brothers, be all the more diligent to make your calling and election sure, for if you practice these qualities you will never fall.
The process is not to gain salvation, salvation is of the Lord and is free, we go through the theosis processes to be worthy of the calling to prepare us (acculturation) in our new heavenly citizenship.
So liturgy alone most probably will not cut it. But it is the base.
In my higher studies (secular) I noticed that many times we needed to put together many different views from different experts to get to a coherent, very helpful whole of the topic at hand.
I was shocked to learn that we as students had to do such synthesis, as I would think that after so many years of accumulated knowledge would allow the experts to put something together very well.
The only time I saw such development at a high level was when involved in the EMS service taking the EMT basic course. I noticed how the top emergenciologists and other specialists got together to put together standard and most effective (up to that training time) the protocols for pre-hospital first responding, 2ndary treatment, etc.
It works, and it does very well.
I wonder how so many experts in theology (biblical, systematic and practical), cannot do the same, as we are talking about something more important: 2nd death prevention.
But no, it seems that they are more concerned about ecclesiastical politics, systems development, and leave in the margins the development of first hand responders, and the very lives of many sheep:
Christian individual responsibility, Christian individual and groups stewardship (including health), gifts identification and development, etc. Seems to be haphazardly done in Church and very dependent on the individual leaders.
Are not christians to be exemplars in organization and methods? Is it not part of good christian testimony? Do sheep every so now and then need a kick in the rear to get going to achieve required standards?
Being a disciple is not easy, and it was not meant to be, we should help construct a conductive environment for high performance in this area, because in my opinion, this is the most important one.
Kind regards.
0 -
MJ. Smith said:
Note to Hamilton Ramos: I think the brevity of this list of doctrinal disputes across this "great schism" illustrates why Orthodoxy has not divided over issues such as you mentioned. Essentially, Catholics, Eastern and Oriental Orthodox represent 1,635,000,000 (about 70% of Christians worldwide) a surprisingly solid block of beliefs - Anglo-Catholics and High Lutherans also belong to this block.
Post well taken, and not contended.
My concern is as mentioned in a previous post that a more systematic way of helping develop the gifts the Holy Spirit bestows to believers is needed, and also a way to match that to actual needed service.
What good is for the common sheep to have such awesome spearhead persons with so much knowledge, and experience if that does not translate to a system that saves lives?
Check the EMS system analogy.
Eventually some of the grandiosity of knowledge and practice has to drip down to the commoners because they are the ones in the trenches were they can help souls that are in danger of being lost.
I do believe in the "Priesthood of all believers", Jesus died for us all, and the Holy Spirit bestows gifts as He wants.
Are we as church a fit aid to then empower such believing sheep for service in accordance with God's plan, or are we trying to make a gold and silver roll in spiritual matters in which a few are in charge, and are overwhelmed, incapable (due to volume), etc.?
Can a doctor be in every corner? or should there be paramedics in every corner so they can help the dying get to the specialist in time for saving?
In 2 Peter, the message is obvious for all the church, not just the leaders.
Thanks very much for the links, and remember I am on that majority's side, not against them, I just would like to see their true potential kicked into high gear.
Kind regards.
0 -
Hamilton Ramos said:
that a more systematic way of helping develop the gifts the Holy Spirit bestows to believers is needed,
The Orthodox have demonstrated for two millennia that systematic methods are not needed. They do use spiritual friendship a.k.a. mentoring and do recognize that some things must be known before others can be learned, that some things can be dangerously misunderstood until one has "prepared the ground" for them. But until you understand that liturgy is participation in the heavenly, eternal, divine liturgy you will focus on the human initiative rather than the divine initiative. Please read the Tolstoy story "The Three Hermits". It illustrates perfectly why Orthodoxy does not worry about systematics but rather trusts God.
Logos has this applicable resource: Engraved Upon the Heart: Children, the Cognitively Challenged, and Liturgy’s Influence on Faith Formation by Hwarang Moon
Hamilton Ramos said:Problem is that different groups see its functions in varied ways.
You have asked about the Orthodox. In that context, there are no "different groups" with varying views of liturgy. The plethora of opinions on how to design human-made worship services is a Protestant issue and therefore not applicable here. To the best of my knowledge, while there are charismatic liturgies within the liturgical churches, I know of no Pentecostal or Charismatic denomination that is liturgical. Please correct me if I am wrong.
Paul F. Bradshaw's Two Ways of Praying (cathedral vs. monastic) might be useful for understanding some of the basic concepts. Or less fundamental, Logos has Liturgy and Theology: Economy and Reality by Nathan G. Jennings from the Anglican perspective.
Hamilton Ramos said:In my higher studies (secular) I noticed that many times we needed to put together many different views from different experts to get to a coherent, very helpful whole of the topic at hand.
This is very true for intellectual understanding, including religious and theological topics. However, the primary focus of a Christian is to become Christ-like i.e. to work on oneself not to reach an intellectual understanding of what Christ-like is.
Hamilton Ramos said:And do you know if Orthodox groups split over Spiritual gifts cessation vs continuationism?
An Orthodox person would be more apt to question why the Church in the West split over the cessation vs continuationism of Tradition.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
0 -
From my Latin rite Catholic perspective, an absolutely necessary prologomenon to any real study of Orthodoxy or any aspect of it is attending Orthodox (or Eastern Catholic) liturgies, especially but definitely not exclusively the Divine Liturgy. The actual celebration of the liturgy is, to my mind, the first and greatest reference book for Eastern Christianity. (Of course, the liturgy is inexpressably more than a reference book.)
Readers of books on Eastern Orthodoxy will benefit tremendously from attending even one significant Eastern Christian liturgy before hitting the books.
“The trouble is that everyone talks about reforming others and no one thinks about reforming himself.” St. Peter of Alcántara
0 -
MJ: Thanks for the recommended resources.
Hope we are not considered discussing theology now.
1 Liturgy= public service in most traditions.
2 Holy Spirit gift identification and development: in certain charismatic / pentecostal groups, persons with gift of prophecy, gift of discernment of spirits, word of science, etc. Give many times direct input as to if someone is chosen by God to carry out a particular ministry / mission.
IAW the information, ministry teams that can help out kick in to aid.
3 What I meant by in higher studies should have spearhead people facilitate the means and ways for new converts to start maturing and developing the gifts the H.S. bestowed them.
Most of the actual know how will come with experience in ministry and the growing presence, attunement and letting guide of the Holy Spirit.
But if people do not know what the gifts are, what are they for, how they have been used historically, and what looms in the horizon for them, the process will be slowed down.
Jesus was clear: "teach them to obey", He does the rest of ripening and improving flow through connection to the vine is up to Him.
4 At least in Christopher version of Orthodox Christianity, they acknowledge that God can use for supernatural deployment any of the saints, as is the Holy Spirit the one that Rules.
Old heard story: Catholics seminarians in this country. Visit to the Hospital. One is so touched by the conditions of the patients, that he kneels and starts to pray asking for mercy to God. Some miracles start happening. What did the other seminarians do? Dude, what are you doing, you are not supposed to be doing that, you are not ordained.
Who in your view was following the right system (God's)? The concerned seminarian asking for mercy, or the gung ho institutional type believers that do not do anything (including God's work) unless permitted by an alleged authority (authoritarian)?
There are light years between God's true work and most institutionalized forms of religion, in case it has not been noticed.
Could the system be improved to focus on what is real important? I hope so.
Kind regards.
0 -
Hamilton Ramos said:
1 Liturgy= public service in most traditions.
I use liturgy in a much narrower sense -- the sense used, for example, for Chupungco, Anscar J., ed. Introduction to the Liturgy. Handbook for Liturgical Studies. Collegeville, MN: The Liturgical Press, 1997. See "Liturgical Protestant and Non-Liturgical" on the web i.e. to me "liturgical" implies lectionary and service book and commonly some portion of the traditional communal prayers of the hours.
Hamilton Ramos said:Old heard story: Catholics seminarians in this country. Visit to the Hospital. One is so touched by the conditions of the patients, that he kneels and starts to pray asking for mercy to God. Some miracles start happening. What did the other seminarians do? Dude, what are you doing, you are not supposed to be doing that, you are not ordained.
Who in your view was following the right system (God's)? The concerned seminarian asking for mercy, or the gung ho institutional type believers that do not do anything (including God's work) unless permitted by an alleged authority (authoritarian)?
My view - the story is a bit of anti-Catholic BS based on a seriously misinformed understanding of the lay/ordained distinction and likely with malicious intent. The appropriate response is "when did you quit beating your wife?" or I could ask "How does this related to essential Orthodox references, the topic of this thread?"
Hamilton Ramos said:Hope we are not considered discussing theology now.
Yes, you have moved into theology. The real question at this point is "do you genuinely want to understand the Orthodox position on e.g. moral theology?" If the answer is yes, then you must put in the work to understand why the Orthodox position begins with an understanding of Orthodox liturgy. If you wish to start with systematics, you will never understand the Orthodox position and by implication, probably never really wanted to. I am very willing to point you to resources to help you understand the Orthodox position; I have no interest in arguing the position with you.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
0 -
SineNomine said:
Readers of books on Eastern Orthodoxy will benefit tremendously from attending even one significant Eastern Christian liturgy before hitting the books.
This Lutheran would want to echo this as well. I understand how we Logos book lovers want a resource to explain everything, but from what I DO understand, they view things differently. I will not claim to understand it fully since I remain an outsider, but the best hints I have have been from attending their worship and talking with Orthodox about why they do some of the things they do.
The Gospel is not ... a "new law," on the contrary, ... a "new life." - William Julius Mann
L8 Anglican, Lutheran and Orthodox Silver, Reformed Starter, Academic Essentials
L7 Lutheran Gold, Anglican Bronze
0 -
Hamilton Ramos said:
Old heard story: Catholics seminarians in this country. Visit to the Hospital. One is so touched by the conditions of the patients, that he kneels and starts to pray asking for mercy to God. Some miracles start happening. What did the other seminarians do? Dude, what are you doing, you are not supposed to be doing that, you are not ordained.
The most relevant Logos/Verbum reference resource is the Catechism of the Catholic Church, which also provides readers a sense of how Catholics understand the Orthodox and Eastern Christianity more generally. The version for folks fond of using TL;DR is the Youth Catechism of the Catholic Church (YOUCAT). That's all I have to say on this matter within the bounds of the forum guidelines.
“The trouble is that everyone talks about reforming others and no one thinks about reforming himself.” St. Peter of Alcántara
0 -
MJ. Smith said:
I use liturgy in a much narrower sense
Thanks for the clarification. Is funny that you reference Globalsecurity (I just think is hilarious). Did not see that coming from you.
Note: Corinthians as master blaster gentile Church:
1 Co 14:24 But if all prophesy, and an unbeliever or outsider enters, he is convicted by all, he is called to account by all, 25 the secrets of his heart are disclosed, and so, falling on his face, he will worship God and declare that God is really among you.
The original Church did have your kind of Liturgy. But what really made the difference was that resurrected Jesus was with them, the Holy Spirit kept disclosing what was wrong, becoming stumbling block for growth, the true values of a persons heart, the possibllities of a person to be a vessel for honorable use, etc.
And that is what made non-converts know that God was truly there.
Big difference.
MJ. Smith said:My view - the story is a bit of anti-Catholic BS based on a seriously misinformed understanding of the lay/ordained distinction and likely with malicious intent. The appropriate response is "when did you quit beating your wife?" or I could ask "How does this related to essential Orthodox references, the topic of this thread?"
Not at all MJ, because that is the feeling that Catholic Charismatics have. Too much control from the institutionalized leaders, and too little display of the work of the Holy Spirit as shown in 1 Co 14:25.
You can reference all the Orthodox resources you want, but the key point was described in the link provided by Christopher:
Acquisition of the Holy Spirit is where it is at. As he also reported, all saints can be vessels for honorable use. And I may add, once the H.S. is acquired, then the gifts have to be put to use.
Those simple truths put all resources in proper perspectives.
The world is to eventually be filled with the Glory of God, and that includes His supernatural work also. He is in natural way always perfect, we are the ones living in a fallen area.
When He shows up, supernatural things are bound to happen, because He sets things aright for love of His children.
Note that in all my posts, I never push a denomination or group, I (like in the referred link to the article Christopher pointed), think that the acquisition of the Holy Spirit is of utmost importance because that is the second part of the mission Jesus came to do: to baptize us with the Holy Spirit to restore g:koinonia with the Father.
That is beyond tradition and groups.
MJ. Smith said:the Orthodox position begins with an understanding of Orthodox liturgy. If you wish to start with systematics, you will never understand the Orthodox position and by implication, probably never really wanted to
Your opinion MJ. You cannot divorce Orthodox from the Apostle's doctrine.
Jewish pillars: Education (as they had Torah, all could potentially serve God).
Worship (by being in the applicable covenant, and staying within the limits of the moral order ingrained in the created order by God, you could be in the presence of God and be transformed (note how this relates to the gifts being operant as per 1 Co 14:25) the presence of God tells what is really going on, and what must be done.
Good deeds: teach others to obey Jesus, Apostle's doctrine, best practices, but without eschewing the supernatural. So preparing for service, and looking for the lost, while worshipping to grow in gifts to do the job God's way.
The Scripture cannot be broken, and any deviation from the prescribed way, is plain unfaithfulness to the Creator.
I have shown to you what the core of Orthodox is by the link that Christopher posted:
I check what you have to say and retain what is good according to their degree of jibing with the Scriptures. Anything that does not jibe I discard.
You are in all good faith sharing with me resources, I am in all good will trying to point out the underneath key spiritual principles behind it all.
Timothy Keller expressed something key about the experience of Jonathan Edwards (if you remember my post on that), most key work is done IAW the Bible, and working in the dimension of the Holy Spirit.
You quoted Sain Francis, and he also was against institutionalized red tape that many times it gets in the way of true work of God.
If the root cause of problems is not brought to the limelight, then how can real progress be made?
Is the forum about just consumerism (buying resources), or is it in the deep intent to expand the Kingdom of God in all of Earth.
If we comment on the more effective ways to do that (regardless of tradition), are we going against the spirit of the forum, or are we hitting it right in the nail head?
Kind regards.
0 -
Thanks SineNomine.
I think both resources mentioned by you are great. Even better is Catholic topical index which lets a lot of resources to be combined smartly.
My problem is that even if Catholics have a long lasting tradition of Saints being used supernaturally and otherwise by God, why is not a more systematic way of helping the development of that area.
I understand epicospalism developed to counter the myriad of heresies developing, but in a way I would imagine that by fostering real deep spirituality (so that believers get closer to God), heresies would be countered better.
Saint Francis was not needed to be controlled tightly to a. point of asphyxiation, Yet he was an awesome child of God, we all can agree with that.
We need the sheep to be more like him (him in turn trying to be more like Jesus). So that is about God's love in humble and faithful service for the Kingdom of God, not an institution.
I think some institutional red tape is making the work deviate from the highway to enter auxiliary bad roads.
We all need to think hard on which system are we presently working and where is our allegiance.
Kind regards.
0 -
Hi Ken:
I understand what you are trying to say. But then your post kind of illustrates what I am trying to convey to all:
To have a better idea of what is really going on, is not enough to read a book. Ideally if we meet the practitioners / sources then we can understand better.
Exactly my point: If we get the baptism of the Holy Spirit and have an encounter with God that way, we will understand better what He wants done and how.
It is not enough to read the Bible, we need to be involved and take part in Jesus' second mission: baptize us with the Holy Spirit.
The church g:ekklesia was in real life the gathering of believers that had the Holy Spirit operant in their lives.
Now there is a misunderstanding that church is the Structure, with its traditions, authority lines, etc. When all that was just to facilitate being a fit aid to Jesus.
Jesus is the hope of the world, He is the savior. Not the Church, the Church is just a fit aid of Jesus (His Bride), let's not lose that understanding.
Kind regards.
0 -
For centuries there has been quite a bit of theological study on various early Christian witnesses in academic theology. Of particular interest to many is Ignatius of Antioch, who left us some letters that he wrote when he was being transported from Antioch to Rome for his expected martyrdom. The textual history of these letters is arguably complex - with some abbreviating them, and others expending on them to update them with later concerns and distinctions, but most scholars for over at least the last century have said that the "middle" version is authentic. One passage of his came to mind upon reading your response, Hamilton.
Flee from divisions, as the beginning of evils. You must all follow the bishop, as Jesus Christ followed the Father, and follow the presbytery as you would the apostles; respect the deacons as the commandment of God. Let no one do anything that has to do with the church without the bishop. Only that Eucharist which is under the authority of the bishop (or whomever he himself designates) is to be considered valid. (2) Wherever ever the bishop appears, there let the congregation be; just as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the catholic church. It is not permissible either to baptize or to hold a love feast without the bishop. But whatever he approves is also pleasing to God, in order that everything you do may be trustworthy and valid. (Ignatius to the Smyrnaeans 8)
Holmes, M. W. (1999). The Apostolic Fathers: Greek texts and English translations (Updated ed., pp. 189–191). Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Books.At the very least I hear from figures like this that as important as it indeed is to make some distinctions between the Church and Jesus, her bride, we dare not make this distinction a separation. In fact, much of what this Lutheran has heard from Orthodox is that we Westerners have often done that - or at least muddy things in our desire to make clear distinctions. They find it hard to imagine talking about the Holy Spirit without talking about Prayer - and when they talk about Prayer they want to tie closely together the Prayer of the Church as a a whole with all the prayers of all the faithful. And wrapped up in all of this, they also talk about the Holy Spirit with the Trinity itself - as being sent from the Father through the Son to the Church - and so our lives as Christians are wrapped up in and around the divine life of God.
And so I strongly suspect that when they hear you talking about "baptism of the Holy Spirit" they would either be confused about what you mean, or say that of course when we are Baptized, we are also sealed with the holy oil of Holy Spirit... And if you are talking about a spiritual experience much like what has been called the Beatific Vision in much of western mysticism, they would remind you that in the Orthodox descriptions of this, this Vision is followed/lived out in an earthly community.
That all said, I am neither an authoritative interpreter of Eastern Orthodoxy nor is this really a topic appropriate to discussion here.
SDG
Ken McGuire
The Gospel is not ... a "new law," on the contrary, ... a "new life." - William Julius Mann
L8 Anglican, Lutheran and Orthodox Silver, Reformed Starter, Academic Essentials
L7 Lutheran Gold, Anglican Bronze
0 -
Ken McGuire said:
Of particular interest to many is Ignatius of Antioch, who left us some letters that he wrote when he was being transported from Antioch to Rome for his expected martyrdom. The textual history of these letters is arguably complex - with some abbreviating them, and others expending on them to update them with later concerns and distinctions, but most scholars for over at least the last century have said that the "middle" version is authentic.
Not detracting from your point, but a very nice intro qualifier to Ignatius. I grew up in the congregational world, but after all is said and done, as well as a victim of over-eager Ignatius helpers, in my mind, the NT succeeds or fails within his letters (apologetically, not necessarily theologically).
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
0
