Removing the Store (cart) icon in Logos 9
Comments
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I imagine FL is disturbed by all the hubbub. Whether it stays or goes makes no difference to me. My Library is 17,000+. I'm very choosy about what I add to it nowadays.
Meanwhile, Jesus kept on growing wiser and more mature, and in favor with God and his fellow man.
International Standard Version. (2011). (Lk 2:52). Yorba Linda, CA: ISV Foundation.
MacBook Pro MacOS Sequoia 15.1 1TB SSD
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We're considering a setting/customization option
Not sure what there is to "consider", but thanks anyway!
As far as I know, no one seemed to mind then.
Maybe it was because the icons of Libby were all standard, regularly-spaced, small windows toolbar icons, not the huge ones now with large spacing. Also space wasn't so much of a premium in those days!
Also things change - we need to be forward rather than backward looking!!!
I really hope you read all the comments of users [I think happy users are your best sales people - not cart icons!].
PS I have no objection to a cart icon - it's just its position - taking up so much real estate - put as many as you like in menus!. My main gripe is that having already complained about lack of space in the Logos 9 toolbar (together with other users), you seem to have ignored, or not understood the complaint, but rather made it worse rather than better by adding extra, unrequested icons! To state it clearly (from my perspective), there is not enough space on the toolbar, and the space that is there is wasted!
Customization is essential - and seemingly your best option - those that don't want icons can hide the ones they want and those that like them can keep them.
I can't remember but it may have been you who mentioned consistency in user interface as a goal - but this toolbar is not consistent - different sized icons, different spacing, some words, some icons etc - a little bit of a mess! Give the users customization options - PLEASE!
Thanks for taking the time to read this - although we may have different perspectives, I'm sure we both have the same goal in mind - to make Logos Bible Software best serve the Church (sounds like your stated aim!)
Every blessing,
James
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I wonder how many pastors in these forums take up an offering every Sunday morning? And I wonder how many would immediately remove it if a member said they'd never give to an offering and they didn't come to church to hear about an offering?
This would not happen in many churches I have ministered in because the offering is not pushed on anyone, not even passed around. It appears to me that the problem is with the method that produces a "I feel pressured" response instead of a free will response.
and I come here and see grown men whine about an icon that is no bigger than the profile picture icon next to it.
For me, the issue is space in the tool bar. If I want it there, allow me to put it there. I need more space made available. I think a legitimate constructive complaint was made and it is good to get the opinion of others on it.
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We're considering a setting/customization option
Not sure what there is to "consider", but thanks anyway!
As far as I know, no one seemed to mind then.
Maybe it was because the icons of Libby were all standard, regularly-spaced, small windows toolbar icons, not the huge ones now with large spacing. Also space wasn't so much of a premium in those days!
Also things change - we need to be forward rather than backward looking!!!
I really hope you read all the comments of users [I think happy users are your best sales people - not cart icons!].
PS I have no objection to a cart icon - it's just its position - taking up so much real estate - put as many as you like in menus!. My main gripe is that having already complained about lack of space in the Logos 9 toolbar (together with other users), you seem to have ignored, or not understood the complaint, but rather made it worse rather than better by adding extra, unrequested icons! To state it clearly (from my perspective), there is not enough space on the toolbar, and the space that is there is wasted!
Customization is essential - and seemingly your best option - those that don't want icons can hide the ones they want and those that like them can keep them.
I can't remember but it may have been you who mentioned consistency in user interface as a goal - but this toolbar is not consistent - different sized icons, different spacing, some words, some icons etc - a little bit of a mess! Give the users customization options - PLEASE!
Thanks for taking the time to read this - although we may have different perspectives, I'm sure we both have the same goal in mind - to make Logos Bible Software best serve the Church (sounds like your stated aim!)
Every blessing,
James
All of this. Well stated. [Y]
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But we had the option to customize the toolbar and remove it.. another fun fact that makes a big difference to your fun fact. so you are comparing an apple cart with an orange cart Phil. And you are also missing the wider problem that Faithlife is much more intrusive with the amount of advertising they do today - whether they want to admit it or not - and some people are simply over it. FL should not be surprised by backlash against this move by FL.
We're considering a setting/customization option. Fun fact: this was a part of the toolbar in Libronix two decades ago: https://blog.logos.com/how_to_unlock_locked_resources/. As far as I know, no one seemed to mind then.
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I wonder how many pastors in these forums take up an offering every Sunday morning?
Very different scenario. Offerings are not taken up because the church is selling something to the congregation. We are giving to God in response to what he has already done for us.
But sure this may not be the most significant issue in the world right now but people don't like what FL has done and should have the right to voice their concern..
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I hardly noticed it, so it didn't matter to me, and FL needs to make money. I almost cannot fault them for wanting to put a store icon there. However, toolbar real estate is at a premium, and there is not enough of it, so I would prefer more, and, as has been stated, the store is easy enough to get to. I have a shortcut to it on my browser toolbar, which is where it probably belongs. I also access it through links in emails when a marketing email has something I am interested in. I am not offended by it but would hide it if given the opportunity. I would probably hide the factbook icon and my account icon, moving to the drop-down menu with all the help screens and taking up less space. I know FL is investing in the factbook, but I usually need different or more information than it provides and ends up going elsewhere. So, leaving it on the tools menu would be perfect for me. I get annoyed when the go box expands and hides some of my toolbar stuff. I have to restart Logos to get it to shrink back down again. But, as I said, it didn't even phase me, so it would be nice to customize it into hiding, but the tool is too valuable for me to stress over it.
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As I've written elsewhere, when this was only a Beta issue:
I don't like the new button at all and I really want to perma-hide mine.
At the same time, the number of people I know who use Logos/Verbum and whose degree of technological competency is sufficiently low that a button of this sort would be beneficial for them is non-zero, so I get what Faithlife is going for. I just think that the non-beta version needs to be better. A two item right click dropdown menu with "Go to store" and "Hide store button" (with a corresponding toggle in Program Settings for it so that it could also be turned back on as desired) would solve my problem.
By what principles would we allow hiding the Store button but not the Sync button, the Profile menu, the Close All button, the Home button, or the Logos logo?
If all I ever use Logos/Verbum for is to study stuff, I will never use the Store button.
The Store button is for shopping.
Shopping can help with studying the Bible, but shopping is not part of studying the Bible, especially if I already have a Bible.
The Home screen, the Library icon, the Factbook button, the GO bar, the Docs button, the Guides button, the Tools button, my personal shortcuts, the Sync button, the Layouts button, and the Close All button all have their place(s) within the process of studying the Bible. The account icon lets me sign in and out, and clicking the triple dots gives me access to a bunch of things related to studying.
The Store button is the only clickable anything on that line that doesn't have a place within the process of studying as such.
But someone else put it more succinctly:
By what principles would we allow hiding the Store button but not the Sync button, the Profile menu, the Close All button, the Home button, or the Logos logo?
Allow the Store button to be hidden irrespective of space considerations. It really has no place in the main toolbar.
“The trouble is that everyone talks about reforming others and no one thinks about reforming himself.” St. Peter of Alcántara
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A little icon next to my close all button doesn't matter to be in any way shape or form. I am not sure what all the fuss is about. I would like the icon that does nothing be linked to the store. But I will never use the store in the software so it can reside wherever it wants.
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But I will never use the store in the software so it can reside wherever it wants.
Even in the middle of the screen at all times? [;)]
“The trouble is that everyone talks about reforming others and no one thinks about reforming himself.” St. Peter of Alcántara
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A little icon next to my close all button doesn't matter to be in any way shape or form. I am not sure what all the fuss is about. I would like the icon that does nothing be linked to the store. But I will never use the store in the software so it can reside wherever it wants.
The problem is there are already like 5 ways to access the store from the software. The trajectory of this is not good--what will come next?
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The problem is there are already like 5 ways to access the store from the software.
If the Store button was the only way to access the store from the software, I would still want to be able to choose to hide the Store button.
“The trouble is that everyone talks about reforming others and no one thinks about reforming himself.” St. Peter of Alcántara
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Do you call your TV provider or ISP to complain and ask that all commercials and ads be removed since you don't want to be sold something, you just want to watch your tv or surf the web uninterrupted? Or, do you just click on by ignoring the commercials and ads like they are not there?
My Blog: Theological Musings
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Even in the middle of the screen at all times?
I was the first to question it's placement in beta testing but if I'm honest, I don't really care about it. The way I divide my screen, I always have a "lost icons" problem with the toolbar ... the cart doesn't really make a difference. What does make a difference in the usability of the toolbar? the automatic clearing of the command box ... can't see my errors, reuse a command with a small modification . . . we all have to press on the issues that really matter to us.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Honestly, when I read these comments away from my desktop, I’m wondering what store icon are they referring to. I had to go back to desktop, which I use every day, to then notice the shopping icon. Honestly I had never thought about it. Now after I know this, I will see it all the time! 😀
So I really don’t care one way or the other.
Bob
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Do you call your TV provider or ISP to complain and ask that all commercials and ads be removed since you don't want to be sold something, you just want to watch your tv or surf the web uninterrupted? Or, do you just click on by ignoring the commercials and ads like they are not there?
That is not an apt comparison. Logos is not a TV provider or ISP. It’s a software suite that we’ve invested heavily in. There shouldn’t be ads at all. Nor is the store icon an ad. But it can be in the way for some users. It shouldn’t be in their way because they invested heavily in the software already.
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Verbum Max0 -
Do you call your TV provider or ISP to complain and ask that all commercials and ads be removed since you don't want to be sold something, you just want to watch your tv or surf the web uninterrupted? Or, do you just click on by ignoring the commercials and ads like they are not there?
Studying the bible and watching TV are two very different activities. Why would I expect my bible software to function like TV networks? Some people like to focus on God's word and remove distractions when studying and may find constant attempts at selling them products distracting and off-putting.
But even if we consider this (non-analogous) analogy, constant commercials are one of the many reasons why I don't watch as much TV as I used to. Even an NFL game is only around 12 minutes of live-action over a 3.5 hour period. Most of the time you're watching commercials, one of the many reasons I don't watch the NFL anymore and switched to soccer. I want to watch sports, not commercials. Some commercials are acceptable, but excessive commercials at the expense of the game is a turn-off. I've watched basketball games where we've missed whole plays because the network didn't come back from the commercial break soon enough. Also, you may have noticed that reruns of older shows have to edited down for time to make room for more commercials since they were produced during a time when there weren't as many commercials, so you don't even get the whole show anymore.
Mostly I watch Netflix which I pay for every month and thus don't have to watch commercials. I pay for Spotify and SiriusXM so I don't have to hear commercials while I'm listening to music. If I am watching TV, it's usually on-demand, and I usually fast forward through commercials if I have the option or get up and go to the bathroom/kitchen during them anyway. I can't very well get up and leave my bible software if I'm actively using it to study the bible, can I? So I want to be able to actually use my bible study software to study the bible and would prefer to not have my bible study tools crowded out by a store button. I want customization rather than having things forced on me. And I don't want to constantly be sold things if I've already paid a lot of money.
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I agree with David, its comparing two totally different things. When it come to TV the majority of my viewing is via Amazon Prime where I pay not to get advertisements and social media I have voted with my feet and rarely us it. But I have already heavily invested in Logos Bible Software and continue to do so, normally picking up something most months so I shouldn't have to have advertising and shopping carts all over my electronic bible and library, especially one etched onto the main toolbar. Put it where it belongs under my account menu icon instead of the main toolbar otherwise give me the option to hide it. In Libronix we had the option to remove it from the main toolbar. It should be the same in Logos Bible Software.
Do you call your TV provider or ISP to complain and ask that all commercials and ads be removed since you don't want to be sold something, you just want to watch your tv or surf the web uninterrupted? Or, do you just click on by ignoring the commercials and ads like they are not there?
That is not an apt comparison. Logos is not a TV provider or ISP. It’s a software suite that we’ve invested heavily in. There shouldn’t be ads at all. Nor is the store icon an ad. But it can be in the way for some users. It shouldn’t be in their way because they invested heavily in the software already.
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Do you call your TV provider or ISP to complain and ask that all commercials and ads be removed since you don't want to be sold something, you just want to watch your tv or surf the web uninterrupted? Or, do you just click on by ignoring the commercials and ads like they are not there?
That is not an apt comparison. Logos is not a TV provider or ISP. It’s a software suite that we’ve invested heavily in. There shouldn’t be ads at all. Nor is the store icon an ad. But it can be in the way for some users. It shouldn’t be in their way because they invested heavily in the software already.
I too have invested heavily in Logos. So, what's your point? You have picked this hill to die on? I don't care what a company does when I can just as easily ignore it like it's not there and go on with my study.
Tell you what. Come back to me when you start finding adds in your printed Bible. Then I may join you in your frustration.
My Blog: Theological Musings
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Do you call your TV provider or ISP to complain and ask that all commercials and ads be removed since you don't want to be sold something, you just want to watch your tv or surf the web uninterrupted? Or, do you just click on by ignoring the commercials and ads like they are not there?
That is not an apt comparison. Logos is not a TV provider or ISP. It’s a software suite that we’ve invested heavily in. There shouldn’t be ads at all. Nor is the store icon an ad. But it can be in the way for some users. It shouldn’t be in their way because they invested heavily in the software already.
I too have invested heavily in Logos. So, what's your point? You have picked this hill to die on? I don't care what a company does when I can just as easily ignore it like it's not there and go on with my study.
Tell you what. Come back to me when you start finding adds in your printed Bible. Then I may join you in your frustration.
I’ve already made clear it doesn’t bother me. But it does bother others. They’re getting the reduced value.
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Verbum Max0 -
But it does bother others. They’re getting the reduced value.
I get reduced value:
- every time a tool doesn't treat the deuterocanonical the same as the protocanonicals
- every time the liturgical date feature fails
- when there is no link to Help which would exist were I using Logos rather than Verbum . . . I could make a very, very long list.
What the users who are bothered and Faithlife need to decide, are they sufficiently bothered that they are willing to give up corrections to non-working functions in order to hide the shopping cart. I certainly don't know the answer to that ... I only know that I have higher priorities on my wish list of fixes and feature development. I have seen some cogent arguments to make me believe some would make it the highest priority.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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But it does bother others. They’re getting the reduced value.
I get reduced value:
- every time a tool doesn't treat the deuterocanonical the same as the protocanonicals
- every time the liturgical date feature fails
- when there is no link to Help which would exist were I using Logos rather than Verbum . . . I could make a very, very long list.
What the users who are bothered and Faithlife need to decide, are they sufficiently bothered that they are willing to give up corrections to non-working functions in order to hide the shopping cart. I certainly don't know the answer to that ... I only know that I have higher priorities on my wish list of fixes and feature development. I have seen some cogent arguments to make me believe some would make it the highest priority.
Is it an either-or though? I suspect this would be a simpler fix.
But I’m not sure why you want to direct this at me. It won’t bother me if it remains. What might bother me is if FL adopts “you’ll get used to it” as a standard approach.
WIN 11 i7 9750H, RTX 2060, 16GB RAM, 1TB SSD | iPad Air 3
Verbum Max0 -
But it does bother others. They’re getting the reduced value.
I get reduced value:
I think you are both correct!
It will be a simple fix, but FL should not have wasted time and resources on this in the first place and should have used their limited time, resources and effort to deal with your wish list of fixes (and the many 'popular' fixes and suggestions on feedbear) (BTW, I think I have supported all of your great ideas on feedbear, MJ). I definitely did not see any request anywhere for another space-consuming toolbar icon in the suggestions!!
However, having done the deed they need to provide an option for us to remove it. It does affect me (and others) as a priority and for me is important, gving me "reduced value". I know it is not important for you, but everyone has their own self-motivated priorities based on their own work flows. But, I reiterate, I too would love for them to prioritize fixes and suggestions from feedbear. But this now is a fix needed.
FL should make use of their beta testing feedback (where this was also noted) and listen to users.
What might bother me is if FL adopts “you’ll get used to it” as a standard approach.
100% agree - not really "serving the Church"!
Thanks,
James
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The camel's nose. What's next? In-resource advertisements between page breaks? (Oops, I shouldn't give them ideas...)
This is paid software, not a free-to-post message board. Please try to remember that.
Has anyone started a user voice vote thingy to get this removed yet?
Strangely I have only paid for extensions to the software and I believe that, if I so desired, I could download a second copy of the software without charge.
Given that Logos needs to make the money to pay for the software maintenance and upgrades isn't it reasonable that they should encourage one to make purchases that fund that work?
The solution, in my opinion, would be for Faithlife to follow the path of other concerns and offer an 'advertisement free' version of the software for, say, $500 with upgrades charged at say $100 per major release.
I could then run my advert-ridden version for free and those who wish to fund the operation more directly could do so.
tootle pip
Mike
How to get logs and post them.(now tagging post-apocalyptic fiction as current affairs) Latest Logos, MacOS, iOS and iPadOS
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Is it an either-or though? I suspect this would be a simpler fix
Yes, the staffing that is available for coding will not be increased so the time they spend on the cart is time they are not spending on other priorities.
They’re getting the reduced value.
is what I was responding to. II was following your logic to it's other implications.Fortunately, Faithlife has the defensive of my not paying (directly) for the engine so I can't list all the errors in the program and resource and suggest they ought to pay me ... [:D]
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Strangely I have only paid for extensions to the software and I believe that, if I so desired, I could download a second copy of the software without charge.
Given that Logos needs to make the money to pay for the software maintenance and upgrades isn't it reasonable that they should encourage one to make purchases that fund that work?
The really annoying thing about this forum is MVPs (as well as others) chiming in whenever a customer has a complaint: "FaithLife is not wrong--you are. Quit complaining."--and how they keep going at it to the point of derailing and diluting threads. (It's happened plenty of times in the past; no, I'm not going to provide further examples.
Kiyah earlier in the thread counted no less than 5 means of accessing the store from the application. At which point can we say, "Enough!"? Will you guys join us in objecting to the next marketing intrusion in the program? Or, maybe the one after that?
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I run Verbum and I was just wondering...if I start the software as "Logos" will the Store App button give me a different list of books? When I click on the Store icon in Verbum the Library opens with a listing of 2355 results. I was curious as to if the list would be larger if I switch the "Verbum" interface to the Logos interface and then click on the Store Icon?
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The really annoying thing about this forum is MVPs (as well as others) chiming in whenever a customer has a complaint: "FaithLife is not wrong--you are. Quit complaining."--and how they keep going at it to the point of derailing and diluting threads. (It's happened plenty of times in the past; no, I'm not going to provide further examples.
Shhhh. Quiet. Go vote on something. (Playing star-person, but I agree with you). I notice the forum now is fully comfortable with intrusive selling (along with the 'just ignore it'). So, we ARE ready for adverts while you read! Sounds great. Maybe auto-videos too.
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We're considering a setting/customization option. Fun fact: this was a part of the toolbar in Libronix two decades ago: https://blog.logos.com/how_to_unlock_locked_resources/. As far as I know, no one seemed to mind then.
This change would be extremely welcome.
Particularly on a smaller screen (e.g. laptop) or when viewing Logos side to side with another program, it is a frustrating use of toolbar space.
When using a paid-for program I don't appreciate further advertising.
This change obviously upset many beta testers and now further customers.
I hope that Phil & Logos will follow through on the customization he has suggested.
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is what I was responding to. II was following your logic to it's other implications.
im not sure that taking a clipped quote out of context really counts as “following your logic.” But whatever.🙄
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Verbum Max0
