Removing the Store (cart) icon in Logos 9
Comments
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David Wanat said:
But it does bother others. They’re getting the reduced value.
I get reduced value:
- every time a tool doesn't treat the deuterocanonical the same as the protocanonicals
- every time the liturgical date feature fails
- when there is no link to Help which would exist were I using Logos rather than Verbum . . . I could make a very, very long list.
What the users who are bothered and Faithlife need to decide, are they sufficiently bothered that they are willing to give up corrections to non-working functions in order to hide the shopping cart. I certainly don't know the answer to that ... I only know that I have higher priorities on my wish list of fixes and feature development. I have seen some cogent arguments to make me believe some would make it the highest priority.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:David Wanat said:
But it does bother others. They’re getting the reduced value.
I get reduced value:
- every time a tool doesn't treat the deuterocanonical the same as the protocanonicals
- every time the liturgical date feature fails
- when there is no link to Help which would exist were I using Logos rather than Verbum . . . I could make a very, very long list.
What the users who are bothered and Faithlife need to decide, are they sufficiently bothered that they are willing to give up corrections to non-working functions in order to hide the shopping cart. I certainly don't know the answer to that ... I only know that I have higher priorities on my wish list of fixes and feature development. I have seen some cogent arguments to make me believe some would make it the highest priority.
Is it an either-or though? I suspect this would be a simpler fix.
But I’m not sure why you want to direct this at me. It won’t bother me if it remains. What might bother me is if FL adopts “you’ll get used to it” as a standard approach.
WIN 11 i7 9750H, RTX 2060, 16GB RAM, 1TB SSD | iPad Air 3
Verbum Max0 -
David Wanat said:MJ. Smith said:
I think you are both correct!
It will be a simple fix, but FL should not have wasted time and resources on this in the first place and should have used their limited time, resources and effort to deal with your wish list of fixes (and the many 'popular' fixes and suggestions on feedbear) (BTW, I think I have supported all of your great ideas on feedbear, MJ). I definitely did not see any request anywhere for another space-consuming toolbar icon in the suggestions!!
However, having done the deed they need to provide an option for us to remove it. It does affect me (and others) as a priority and for me is important, gving me "reduced value". I know it is not important for you, but everyone has their own self-motivated priorities based on their own work flows. But, I reiterate, I too would love for them to prioritize fixes and suggestions from feedbear. But this now is a fix needed.
FL should make use of their beta testing feedback (where this was also noted) and listen to users.
David Wanat said:What might bother me is if FL adopts “you’ll get used to it” as a standard approach.
100% agree - not really "serving the Church"!
Thanks,
James
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Sean said:
The camel's nose. What's next? In-resource advertisements between page breaks? (Oops, I shouldn't give them ideas...)
This is paid software, not a free-to-post message board. Please try to remember that.
Has anyone started a user voice vote thingy to get this removed yet?
Strangely I have only paid for extensions to the software and I believe that, if I so desired, I could download a second copy of the software without charge.
Given that Logos needs to make the money to pay for the software maintenance and upgrades isn't it reasonable that they should encourage one to make purchases that fund that work?
The solution, in my opinion, would be for Faithlife to follow the path of other concerns and offer an 'advertisement free' version of the software for, say, $500 with upgrades charged at say $100 per major release.
I could then run my advert-ridden version for free and those who wish to fund the operation more directly could do so.
tootle pip
Mike
Now tagging post-apocalyptic fiction as current affairs. Latest Logos, MacOS, iOS and iPadOS
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David Wanat said:
Is it an either-or though? I suspect this would be a simpler fix
Yes, the staffing that is available for coding will not be increased so the time they spend on the cart is time they are not spending on other priorities.
is what I was responding to. II was following your logic to it's other implications.David Wanat said:They’re getting the reduced value.
Fortunately, Faithlife has the defensive of my not paying (directly) for the engine so I can't list all the errors in the program and resource and suggest they ought to pay me ... [:D]
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Mike Binks said:
Strangely I have only paid for extensions to the software and I believe that, if I so desired, I could download a second copy of the software without charge.
Given that Logos needs to make the money to pay for the software maintenance and upgrades isn't it reasonable that they should encourage one to make purchases that fund that work?
The really annoying thing about this forum is MVPs (as well as others) chiming in whenever a customer has a complaint: "FaithLife is not wrong--you are. Quit complaining."--and how they keep going at it to the point of derailing and diluting threads. (It's happened plenty of times in the past; no, I'm not going to provide further examples.
Kiyah earlier in the thread counted no less than 5 means of accessing the store from the application. At which point can we say, "Enough!"? Will you guys join us in objecting to the next marketing intrusion in the program? Or, maybe the one after that?
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I run Verbum and I was just wondering...if I start the software as "Logos" will the Store App button give me a different list of books? When I click on the Store icon in Verbum the Library opens with a listing of 2355 results. I was curious as to if the list would be larger if I switch the "Verbum" interface to the Logos interface and then click on the Store Icon?
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Sean said:
The really annoying thing about this forum is MVPs (as well as others) chiming in whenever a customer has a complaint: "FaithLife is not wrong--you are. Quit complaining."--and how they keep going at it to the point of derailing and diluting threads. (It's happened plenty of times in the past; no, I'm not going to provide further examples.
Shhhh. Quiet. Go vote on something. (Playing star-person, but I agree with you). I notice the forum now is fully comfortable with intrusive selling (along with the 'just ignore it'). So, we ARE ready for adverts while you read! Sounds great. Maybe auto-videos too.
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Phil Gons (Faithlife) said:
We're considering a setting/customization option. Fun fact: this was a part of the toolbar in Libronix two decades ago: https://blog.logos.com/how_to_unlock_locked_resources/. As far as I know, no one seemed to mind then.
This change would be extremely welcome.
Particularly on a smaller screen (e.g. laptop) or when viewing Logos side to side with another program, it is a frustrating use of toolbar space.
When using a paid-for program I don't appreciate further advertising.
This change obviously upset many beta testers and now further customers.
I hope that Phil & Logos will follow through on the customization he has suggested.
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MJ. Smith said:
is what I was responding to. II was following your logic to it's other implications.
im not sure that taking a clipped quote out of context really counts as “following your logic.” But whatever.🙄
WIN 11 i7 9750H, RTX 2060, 16GB RAM, 1TB SSD | iPad Air 3
Verbum Max0 -
Sean said:
The really annoying thing about this forum is MVPs (as well as others) chiming in whenever a customer has a complaint: "FaithLife is not wrong--you are.
There are various things we find annoying Sean. I, for one, find the assertion that the Logos programme has been 'paid' for particularly irksome.
The part of my message you did not quote suggested a way forward that might allow the 'store access' points to become an option and still make business sense.
I am not implying that anyone is wrong for wanting fewer of them, or even none at all. I just see the business case for having them.
Actually, in the past, when I have clicked on a link to an unowned resource I have rued the fact that there wasn't a quick and easy way of accessing the store. So that I could efficiently obtain it without too much of a break in my flow.
tootle pip
Mike
Now tagging post-apocalyptic fiction as current affairs. Latest Logos, MacOS, iOS and iPadOS
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Greg Rose said:
I run Verbum and I was just wondering...if I start the software as "Logos" will the Store App button give me a different list of books? When I click on the Store icon in Verbum the Library opens with a listing of 2355 results. I was curious as to if the list would be larger if I switch the "Verbum" interface to the Logos interface and then click on the Store Icon?
I suspect it would be different. When I clicked on the store icon, having Ultimate, there are ~400 items shown. That squares with the Verbum website when I click on the not owned filter
WIN 11 i7 9750H, RTX 2060, 16GB RAM, 1TB SSD | iPad Air 3
Verbum Max0 -
James Hudson said:
I think you are both correct!
It will be a simple fix, but FL should not have wasted time and resources on this in the first place and should have used their limited time, resources and effort to deal with your wish list of fixes (and the many 'popular' fixes and suggestions on feedbear) (BTW, I think I have supported all of your great ideas on feedbear, MJ). I definitely did not see any request anywhere for another space-consuming toolbar icon in the suggestions!!
However, having done the deed they need to provide an option for us to remove it. It does affect me (and others) as a priority and for me is important, gving me "reduced value". I know it is not important for you, but everyone has their own self-motivated priorities based on their own work flows. But, I reiterate, I too would love for them to prioritize fixes and suggestions from feedbear. But this now is a fix needed.
FL should make use of their beta testing feedback (where this was also noted) and listen to users.
[Y] The forums need an "amen" button like Faithlife.com has.
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Eating a steady diet of government cheese, and living in a van down by the river.
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Greg Rose said:
I run Verbum and I was just wondering...if I start the software as "Logos" will the Store App button give me a different list of books? When I click on the Store icon in Verbum the Library opens with a listing of 2355 results. I was curious as to if the list would be larger if I switch the "Verbum" interface to the Logos interface and then click on the Store Icon?
Yes.
Clifford B. Kvidahl said:I don't care what a company does when I can just as easily ignore it like it's not there and go on with my study.
Some of us cannot so easily ignore it.
David Wanat said:Clifford B. Kvidahl said:Do you call your TV provider or ISP to complain and ask that all commercials and ads be removed since you don't want to be sold something, you just want to watch your tv or surf the web uninterrupted? Or, do you just click on by ignoring the commercials and ads like they are not there?
That is not an apt comparison.
A less distant one would be if you bought an ordinary DVD player and then later on the maker of the DVD player did an OTA firmware update to your DVD player so that there'd be a store icon covering the top right corner of the screen whenever you were watching a DVD using the player.
“The trouble is that everyone talks about reforming others and no one thinks about reforming himself.” St. Peter of Alcántara
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Sean said:
The really annoying thing about this forum is MVPs (as well as others) chiming in whenever a customer has a complaint: "FaithLife is not wrong--you are. Quit complaining."--and how they keep going at it to the point of derailing and diluting threads. (It's happened plenty of times in the past; no, I'm not going to provide further examples.
I can't speak for anyone but myself but your characterization implies a misunderstanding of what I have been trying to say which is:
- your complaint is valid
- I was the first to report it as a problem in beta
- be certain it is your #1 priority before pushing it as requiring immediate action
- it's fine it it is your #1 priority -- but it isn't mine
- recognize the available staff for coding doesn't change; prioritizing this pushes other bug fixes and feature development back.
In the beta forum there was an active discussion of this where Faithlife provided their rationale New store button in Logos 9.5 beta 1 - Faithlife Forums
Phil Gons (Faithlife) said:Thanks for your feedback. But I'd like to ask that you give it some time and consider that it may be a significant help to other users (and, indirectly, for you, too, as we continue to grow and can invest in making Logos better for everyone).
Desktop in-app purchasing has increased 5x since we introduced the Store tab in the Library, which tells me that some users really appreciate the convenience and contextual nature of finding and buying a book without leaving the app. The ability to shop for individual resources by their metadata is something powerful that can't be replicated on Logos.com. It's a real service to users that more people need to know about and experience.
In-app purchasing in desktop applications may not be the norm (though we did it in Libronix two decades ago!). But it is the norm in modern mobile and web applications. There's a move toward eliminating the gap between apps and stores. It's hard to find a modern mobile app that doesn't have prominent, integrated in-app purchasing.
There was quite a kerfuffle about the changes we made to the About Logos panel a few years ago, but people have mostly gotten used to it and its proven to be an effect tool for driving upgrades. I expect the same outcome here.
By the end of beta testing, Phil was considering the customization of the tool bar option ...
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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James Hudson said:
However, having done the deed they need to provide an option for us to remove it. It does affect me (and others) as a priority and for me is important, gving me "reduced value". I know it is not important for you, but everyone has their own self-motivated priorities based on their own work flows. But, I reiterate, I too would love for them to prioritize fixes and suggestions from feedbear. But this now is a fix needed.
While I'm not enthusiastic about the final 7 words, this is exactly the kind of post I like to see -- a personal opinion strongly supported, no faux accusations, and a recognition that even everyone in the forums is a small slice of the Logos family of users.
I suspect we will get some form of customizing the tool bar which is a positive feature gain independent of the shopping cart issue. And, yes, I have expressed reservations regarding a customizable tool bar from the perspective of training. As a feature, I can envisions a group of users on devices where it could be very helpful; at the moment that group does not include me but I support their effort.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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I don't want the shopping cart on my screen. I don't like it and I think it stinks.
It comes across as tacky and as over aggressive marketing to me (this is my opinion).
I buy things on a regular basis from Logos but it is at my choice when and where to shop.
I associate my Logos software with class and this tacky a** shopping cart on my private desk top and sacred work space doesn't fit in at all with the sacred work that I do within it.
This is my opinion (no intention of arguing or debating anyone).
Its my software that I have paid for and continue to pay for and I don't want a cart stuck in my face every time that I choose to study the word of God (which is the most sacred task that I can do).
Pastor Jesse Blevins
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I don't like the store icon,
I stopped buying resources, logos is sill not listening to its customers it won't make me buy more books ,
Always gone to Logos website to buy books ,
When I use logos I don't use the internet i have it switched off
The software runs faster, all the shop store does is fill your cache file full of junk ,the store book icons are stored somewhere
When I delete the web cache file I have to download videos and audio resources again ,let's have some house keeping to help to keep the website cache file free from the junk stuff
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MJ. Smith said:
quote user="Phil Gons (Faithlife)"]
Thanks for your feedback. But I'd like to ask that you give it some time and consider that it may be a significant help to other users (and, indirectly, for you, too, as we continue to grow and can invest in making Logos better for everyone).
Desktop in-app purchasing has increased 5x since we introduced the Store tab in the Library, which tells me that some users really appreciate the convenience and contextual nature of finding and buying a book without leaving the app.
Phil,
Please consider giving customers the option to either take it off the menu bar or to move it to a different location in the menu bar.
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Phil Gons (Faithlife) said:
We're considering a setting/customization option.
Perhaps the customization option could be to use the Logos icon on the top left of the UI (next to the home button). If users were permitted to embed a link to this icon either to the Logos.com home page OR Forum Home Page OR Store Front OR leave it blank. It may be a way of adding functionality without taking any more space on the bar.
Making Disciples! Logos Ecosystem = LogosMax on Microsoft Surface Pro 7 (Win11), Android app on tablet, FSB on iPhone & iPad mini, Proclaim (Proclaim Remote on Fire Tablet).
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IMHO something is very weird to this "store" button..it is bringing you exactly to the same spot as the already existing library icon on the left of the toolbar does, except for that it now opens the store tab instead of the yours tab. Adding a second "library" button with the same functionality looks unnecessary redundant to me.
Weird..because it adds nothing. No convenience, no functionality. Just a lot of fuss in these forums. My advise to FL: remove it.
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OK, I just read the posts on the Beta forum (I am not using beta's) and I understand this redundancy was intentional. I understand the incentive to do so, but in that case I would remove the store tab from the library menu and place it as an icon next to the library icon and redesign it. Now it looks like a pram.
But even better: leave it as it was, without the extra icon. Because after all, it worked fine as it boosted your sales 5x which sounds significant to me...
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Luuk Dondorp said:
But even better: leave it as it was, without the extra icon. Because after all, it worked fine as it boosted your sales 5x which sounds significant to me...
I expect that the new icon will lead to a further sales boost, if it hasn't already.
It already has led to a boost in unhappy customers.
Letting us manually hide the Store button shouldn't hurt sales, but will reduce the number of unhappy customers.
“The trouble is that everyone talks about reforming others and no one thinks about reforming himself.” St. Peter of Alcántara
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“The trouble is that everyone talks about reforming others and no one thinks about reforming himself.” St. Peter of Alcántara
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SineNomine said:
Faithlife merged post into => Remove Store Button that now has 14 votes.
Caveat: new feedback currently needs separate login so please vote => Add the feedback website to the Faithlife SSO system that has 28 votes (#1 in Faithlife.com / ChMS feedback board).
Keep Smiling [:)]
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Thanks for letting me know. I do not like that they have done that, because the request I created was NOT about removing the Store button.
Ergo, please vote here: https://feedback.faithlife.com/boards/logos-desktop-app/posts/allow-us-to-hide-the-new-store-button
You will notice that I made the new "Let us hide" suggestion more clearly different from the "Remove" request (which I personally do not support).
“The trouble is that everyone talks about reforming others and no one thinks about reforming himself.” St. Peter of Alcántara
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SineNomine said:
I do not like that they have done that, because the request I created was NOT about removing the Store button.
Sorry about that. I wasn't reading carefully and they seemed like the same suggestion. Thanks for clarifying in your new suggestion that it's something different.
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SineNomine said:
I do not like that they have done that, because the request I created was NOT about removing the Store button.
Sorry about that. I wasn't reading carefully and they seemed like the same suggestion. Thanks for clarifying in your new suggestion that it's something different.
No worries! I could have been clearer the first time. All's well now. [Y]
“The trouble is that everyone talks about reforming others and no one thinks about reforming himself.” St. Peter of Alcántara
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25 votes (both feedbacks). 80 comments. And 13,000+ views. I'm thinking back to the old statistics course, and minimum significance. Does the '25' argue for doing it? Or don't bother ... they'll get used to it.
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SineNomine said:
Thanks for letting me know. I do not like that they have done that, because the request I created was NOT about removing the Store button.
Ergo, please vote here: https://feedback.faithlife.com/boards/logos-desktop-app/posts/allow-us-to-hide-the-new-store-button
You will notice that I made the new "Let us hide" suggestion more clearly different from the "Remove" request (which I personally do not support).
Voted & added comment:
Dreaming of "hiding" option so Cart icon does not show in the Toolbar when have nothing in my cart to buy. If have placed something into my shopping cart (inside the application OR using a web store), having Cart icon appear would be appreciated if clicking Cart shows what is in the shopping cart & can complete purchase.
Keep Smiling [:)]
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DMB said:
25 votes (both feedbacks). 80 comments. And 13,000+ views. I'm thinking back to the old statistics course, and minimum significance. Does the '25' argue for doing it? Or don't bother ... they'll get used to it.
It's a pain in the rear to remember a login for a feedback site, so most don't bother.
I sometimes suspect FL doesn't take this sampling bias into consideration when they use the feedback sites. It's not only real, it is hyper-significant.
Eating a steady diet of government cheese, and living in a van down by the river.
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Doc B said:
It's a pain in the rear to remember a login for a feedback site, so most don't bother.
I sometimes suspect FL doesn't take this sampling bias into consideration when they use the feedback sites. It's not only real, it is hyper-significant.
Agree. Personally, I don't want the shop-cart ... I think mobile did that for a while; now it's gone. But 'voting' to respect customers (and even accept bug reports) is not my cup of tea. A separate site and do-what-we-like privacy policy, and the sampling limitations suggest waiting for FL to discover 'customers' (vs 'users').
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DMB said:Doc B said:
It's a pain in the rear to remember a login for a feedback site, so most don't bother.
I sometimes suspect FL doesn't take this sampling bias into consideration when they use the feedback sites. It's not only real, it is hyper-significant.
Agree. Personally, I don't want the shop-cart ... I think mobile did that for a while; now it's gone. But 'voting' to respect customers (and even accept bug reports) is not my cup of tea. A separate site and do-what-we-like privacy policy, and the sampling limitations suggest waiting for FL to discover 'customers' (vs 'users').
Concur new Feedback needs a separate login so please vote => Add the feedback website to the Faithlife SSO system that has 28 votes with status of Planned.
UserVoice (with limit of 10 votes per user: up to 3 for one suggestion) had 1,000+ users voting for a single suggestion. Currently the top # votes in new Feedback for Logos Desktop App is 88, which is less than 9 % of UserVoice voting. Also number of users has increased from Wordsearch. For feedback, Faithlife SSO integration should be the highest priority.
Keep Smiling [:)]
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UserVoice (with limit of 10 votes per user: up to 3 for one suggestion) had 1,000+ users voting for a single suggestion. Currently the top # votes in new Feedback for Logos Desktop App is 88, which is less than 9 % of UserVoice voting. Also number of users has increased from Wordsearch. For feedback, Faithlife SSO integration should be the highest priority.
UserVoice did not have that integration, which I nonetheless believe would help feedback.faithlife.com gather more feedback.
“The trouble is that everyone talks about reforming others and no one thinks about reforming himself.” St. Peter of Alcántara
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So, you're saying "If you don't like it you can leave?" They bought my alternative. They took over my library. I'm paying more per month for Bible Software than I do for water. While this might seem spiritual, I would hope it would give me a little say over the product.
To say that Logos needs the money. At $10,800 for their largest base package, and catering to every doctrine out there, if they aren't making money, there is a serious lack of priority.
There is a huge search bar that doesn't directly search the Bible, my custom icons become sub menus on my laptop (which isn't small). And the searches always remind me if I buy just one more book, I can have the info I'm looking for.
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Greetings Keith and welcome to the forums. I am sure that one of the volunteers here will be able to help and advise with any problems you have using the software or resources in your Logos installation.
Forum members are lucky that we get quite a lot of help from Faithlife staff from time to time, but the forums are principally volunteer serviced. For direct input to staff, it is better to phone Customer Service.
When one is replying to an earlier post it is helpful, either to quote a relevant section from the post, or start with the name of the poster.
Your Wordsearch Program and Library should keep working, as it was doing when the company closed, until such time as you make a change that breaks it. As far as I am aware, if you are content with that, or you are seriously discontented with Faithlife your use of Wordsearch can continue until such time as you find you need to evaluate the alternatives. At that point, which with care could be well into the future, your resources will be waiting for you in your Logos account should you choose to migrate to this platform.
I am intrigued as to how you are paying more for software than for water. Are you buying more resources than you would hardback books if the free software wasn't given to you? Or are you referring to the cost of a Connect subscription?
tootle pip
Mike
Now tagging post-apocalyptic fiction as current affairs. Latest Logos, MacOS, iOS and iPadOS
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Thank you for your response. I am use to a different forum format and need to learn to be a little more reserved with my actual thought process.
"I am intrigued as to how you are paying more for software than for water. Are you buying more resources than you would hardback books if the free software wasn't given to you? Or are you referring to the cost of a Connect subscription?"TL;DR$50 payment plan for $700 package$20 Faithlife connect -- to take advantage of free courses and some other things$20 MP Seminars to figure out how to work it.Currently I am paying $50 a month for ( I think the Gold package. I would have to look it up again.)
As far as I am aware, if you are content with that, or you are seriously discontented with Faithlife your use of Wordsearch can continue until such time as you find you need to evaluate the alternatives.
I purchased the bronze package shortly after the Wordsearch buyout (to take advantage of the discount) and Logos was kind enough to credit me an upgrade because of the purchase timing with ver 9.While somewhat disappointed with the buy out. I understood why it happened as WordSearch seemed to be stagnating, I was also grateful that I didn't lose any of the books and grateful also to see that many of them have been integrated into Logos.I also subscribed to Faith Life connect but, I really don't have much use for it but, was hoping to take advantage of some of the free courses. So, $70 a month total right now. My water bill with 2 very good drips going was running $60. I have also been paying MP Seminars for the training but, I haven't made use of that either. So, $90."When one is replying to an earlier post it is helpful, either to quote a relevant section from the post or start with the name of the poster."Missed the quote button.
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I have just upgraded my system to one with a smaller screen. This now really cuts into the space for shortcuts on the menu bar. We do need the ability to customize this.
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Sean said:
I have just upgraded my system to one with a smaller screen. This now really cuts into the space for shortcuts on the menu bar. We do need the ability to customize this.
Just a thought Sean
Did you dispose of your monitor from the old system? It might do good service as a second monitor on your new system.
Give it a try if you can the difference in the workflow is significant.
tootle pip
Mike
Now tagging post-apocalyptic fiction as current affairs. Latest Logos, MacOS, iOS and iPadOS
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Mike Binks said:Sean said:
I have just upgraded my system to one with a smaller screen. This now really cuts into the space for shortcuts on the menu bar. We do need the ability to customize this.
Just a thought Sean
Did you dispose of your monitor from the old system? It might do good service as a second monitor on your new system.
Give it a try if you can the difference in the workflow is significant.
Unless it's a laptop-to-laptop upgrade. I'd be curious if most of the objections are from laptop users.
WIN 11 i7 9750H, RTX 2060, 16GB RAM, 1TB SSD | iPad Air 3
Verbum Max0 -
David Wanat said:
Unless it's a laptop-to-laptop upgrade. I'd be curious if most of the objections are from laptop users.
It was. But I also think it's overkill to have 5-6 different ways to access the store from the program. (For those pushing back against the pushback, where do you suggest they put #7?)
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David Wanat said:
Unless it's a laptop-to-laptop upgrade. I'd be curious if most of the objections are from laptop users.
If you read the multiple threads on this issue, people are objecting to its placement for more reasons than just space concerns. People don't think it belongs there because they want their toolbar dedicated to bible study and not have a constant suggestion to buy things pushed in their face. Putting the store button on the toolbar is too in your face. Plus it's redundant and overkill since, as Sean mentioned, there are already umpteen ways to access the store and directly purchase books from within the software.
The store button simply opens the library to the store tab. This means you already have access to the library store tab from the toolbar by using the library button itself. Depending on whether you used the Yours tab or Store tab last, you already have either 2-click or 1-click access to the library store tab from the toolbar.
Whether it be for space concerns or philosophical concerns or both, we need to be able to remove it, period. I don't know why there is so much "pushback against the pushback," to quote Sean. If we have the option to remove it, those who want it can keep it, those who don't can remove it, and everyone is happy.
I hope Faithlife implements the ability to remove it sooner rather than later. Maybe just add a Show/Hide Store button option in settings or something until you can have a fully customizable toolbar down the road. But I'm sure there's something simple that Faithlife can implement in an upcoming update to alleviate our frustration.
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Kiyah said:David Wanat said:
Unless it's a laptop-to-laptop upgrade. I'd be curious if most of the objections are from laptop users.
If you read the multiple threads on this issue, people are objecting to its placement for more reasons than just space concerns. People don't think it belongs there because they want their toolbar dedicated to bible study and not have a constant suggestion to buy things pushed in their face. Putting the store button on the toolbar is too in your face. Plus it's redundant and overkill since, as Sean mentioned, there are already umpteen ways to access the store and directly purchase books from within the software.
The store button simply opens the library to the store tab. This means you already have access to the library store tab from the toolbar by using the library button itself. Depending on whether you used the Yours tab or Store tab last, you already have either 2-click or 1-click access to the library store tab from the toolbar.
Whether it be for space concerns or philosophical concerns or both, we need to be able to remove it, period. I don't know why there is so much "pushback against the pushback," to quote Sean. If we have the option to remove it, those who want it can keep it, those who don't can remove it, and everyone is happy.
I hope Faithlife implements the ability to remove it sooner rather than later. Maybe just add a Show/Hide Store button option in settings or something until you can have a fully customizable toolbar down the road. But I'm sure there's something simple that Faithlife can implement in an upcoming update to alleviate our frustration.
Well said. I have trouble understanding how the idea of making the Store Cart button optional, is even arguable.
Have any of the Bible scholars on here even referenced Matt. 21:12. Why did Jesus get so mad? After all they were simply making things easier for those who traveled great distances to be able to offer a sacrifice in the temple. They were enabling their worship of God.
Where is the line we don't cross? I'm asking for a friend.
If Faithlife needs to generate income maybe they could work with Google Ads and really get some passive income going.
They may as well.
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Keith Steele said:
I have trouble understanding how the idea of making the Store Cart button optional, is even arguable.
While I find it difficult to understand why people want to allocate the resources to change it rather than getting more of the bugs and missing features cleaned up -- and I was the first to question its usefulness in beta testing. It is a zero game ... all the resources we want to apply to X takes away from the resources available for Y ... resources to be assigned remains constant.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:Keith Steele said:
I have trouble understanding how the idea of making the Store Cart button optional, is even arguable.
While I find it difficult to understand why people want to allocate the resources to change it rather than getting more of the bugs and missing features cleaned up -- and I was the first to question its usefulness in beta testing. It is a zero game ... all the resources we want to apply to X takes away from the resources available for Y ... resources to be assigned remains constant.
Honestly, I don't know why the resources were allocated to put a Store Cart button in the first place instead of "getting more of the bugs and missing features cleaned up".
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Keith Steele said:
I don't know why the resources were allocated to put a Store Cart button in the first place
Nor do I
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:Keith Steele said:
I have trouble understanding how the idea of making the Store Cart button optional, is even arguable.
While I find it difficult to understand why people want to allocate the resources to change it rather than getting more of the bugs and missing features cleaned up -- and I was the first to question its usefulness in beta testing. It is a zero game ... all the resources we want to apply to X takes away from the resources available for Y ... resources to be assigned remains constant.
Many users raised the issue in beta, they should have listened then. I'm not even a beta user but made sure to raise my concerns then and literally begged them not to ship it in the first place. I knew it would be hard to get it removed after they had already shipped it. We also asked for it to be made optional while it was still in beta but they ignored that.
I don't think it's fair to expect us to just drop it just because they 1) chose to allocate resources to a store button instead of bug fixes and 2) chose to ignore our concerns while still in beta and push it out anyway without including the ability to remove it.
I agree with you that it will take resources away from other things, but it doesn't really feel like they're prioritizing based on our top user requests to begin with.
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Keith Steele said:MJ. Smith said:Keith Steele said:
I have trouble understanding how the idea of making the Store Cart button optional, is even arguable.
While I find it difficult to understand why people want to allocate the resources to change it rather than getting more of the bugs and missing features cleaned up -- and I was the first to question its usefulness in beta testing. It is a zero game ... all the resources we want to apply to X takes away from the resources available for Y ... resources to be assigned remains constant.
Honestly, I don't know why the resources were allocated to put a Store Cart button in the first place instead of "getting more of the bugs and missing features cleaned up".
And, people need to stop acting like making a customizable toolbar is a radical new innovation in programming that's going to take a team of developers weeks if not months to implement. Customizable toolbars have been around in software for, I dunno, maybe 25 years or so? It's not that big of a thing to ask for.
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Sean said:
And, people need to stop acting like making a customizable toolbar is a radical new innovation in programming that's going to take a team of developers weeks if not months to implement. Customizable toolbars have been around in software for, I dunno, maybe 25 years or so? It's not that big of a thing to ask for.
Exactly. And customizable toolbars have been around since Windows at least. I've always been able to customize toolbars in Windows apps. I got my first Windows PC in 1993 for context.
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