Official: You Can Now Get Early Access to the Next Version of Logos
Comments
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Graham Criddle said:Wayne & Rebecca Birch said:
How long to you think before language models will be integrated into doin more than just searching.
I don't know - but, even having read all / most of the discussion here I continue to be confident that the Logos teams will make good decisions about the way forward.
Ps 118:9 It is better to take refuge in the Lord than to trust in Princes. I would rather see the proof of that than out any trust in any man, let alone corporation. Until then, I remain skeptical, yet not without hope that correct decisions will be made. However, as I have said before, doubts remain due to the evident steps already take down this road, which would not have been cheap to do. In many ways, they are committed.
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hc said:Wayne & Rebecca Birch said:Graham Criddle said:Wayne & Rebecca Birch said:
Empirically I can tell you it guesses, it makes things up. Numerous occasions I have found that it purely just made things up
While I agree this is true in general I'm less sure it applies in the way Logos is currently using AI tools.
Taking Smart Search for example, the AI aspects are about working out the most relevant hits to a search query drawing on resources you have in your Library (a Books Search) or the Logos catalog (an All Search).
So it isn't making things up, it is suggesting which books, journals, etc might be most helpful to look at.
How long to you think before language models will be integrated into doin more than just searching? It is easy to make comments about these things early on in the piece, what about later? What about the pressure to keep producing features to justify a subscription. Commercial and customer pressure will factor in at some stage. I don't want to think of just the road that is in front of me now. I want to think about whats coming later, the destination of that road. Its why I brought up social media in a previous posts. By all metrics it was a god-send in its early days. Look at it now. Congress is voting to ban Tik-Tok. Have you seen the studies on cognitive decline in youths due to the algorithms used in social media and their addictive natures? Not so great now. I would encourage you not to look at the immediate, but the potential pitfalls down the road.
I share your concern for large language model AI and it's integration into everything. However, as I understand it, Logos AI is not a large language model at all. I'm quite skeptical that it's worthy of the title AI, though I say that as a distant observer who has not experimented with it.
Its what you would dubb machine learning, or reactive machines which is algorithm based and have no memory this is as old as IBM's Deep Blue in 1997. What we have now is Limited AI which most current language based AI are now. The reactive AI should be cheaper than what is called AI now. The level above say Chat GPT is AGI or Artificial General Intelligence (already on its way) and ASI (artificial super intelligence - also on its way). Logos only mentioned AI in general terms. We don't truly know the scope of what they plan to do with the software. Will consumer/commercial pressure dictate to derive subscription value to develop other tools in a progressive fashion and get to a point where like a frog in a pan, we will wonder how we got here? I truly don't know, but I think its worth asking the question.
Remember my concern is not just for the immediate future, it is for the future as well.
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I've read the over-1000 posts (so far) on this thread, and I don't recall anyone mentioning this aspect of subscription-driven corporate work. This applies *now* to Faithlife, since it is *now* a secular organization, driven by the need to increase revenue for the shareholders. That's just the way it is, since Bob and many of his original family & crew have taken a much-deserved retirement.
Here is the "gotcha" regarding subscriptions, in general.
For a pure-subscription service that offers products (books) which the users plan to reference repeatedly ... and depend on that ability (unlike, say, the Netflix movie library) ... there is LITTLE INCENTIVE for the company to continue to ADD NEW features ... doing so costs them extra effort in the creation, debugging, documentation and support of those new features.
That is, if they so choose, they can potentially maximize their net profit (and shareholder benefits) by just maintaining the status quo ... keeping up with OS releases as necessary (relatively easy). They don't NEED to add new or even fix any current features ... they don't even NEED to add more books.
WHY? Because, under a *PURE* subscription model, all their users (past and present) are "trapped by their need" for the services that already exist.
Only those users that have previously PURCHASED "in perpetuity" rights to the engine as well as the books, can choose to refuse ongoing subscription payments ... they can avoid issues with OS changes by using VM (Virtual Machine) "frozen snapshots" (a little tricky to set up, but not expensive to use). This VM approach also protects purchase-users from having some or all of the engine features (or books) "taken away" by a future (sneaky) "automatic update" which disables active tools.
I would hope that this latter event would never happen, but from a *secular organization* that wants to "convert" millions of existing customer into a trapped revenue stream, it's not beyond the realm of possibility. Of course, if they do that, they're likely going to be hit with a massive user-lawsuit against the secular organization, for breach-of-faith and breach-of-"in perpetuity"-promises ... and due to the likelihood of that response, I don't think it will happen.
Summary: Subscription models TRAP the users, and REMOVE INCENTIVE from the sellers to make improvements, when the product has benefits and resources that inherently entail repeated ongoing use.
I realize this is somewhat of a "dark perspective" ... but it's a real derivative of the way that secular, investor-driven companies often work.
And btw ... were it not for that sweeping recent change in ownership, I would not have suggested the concerns that I have in this post.
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Redeeming the time (Eph.5:16+Col.4:5) ... Win 10, iOS & iPadOS 16
Jim Dean0 -
Jim Dean said:
Summary: Subscription models TRAP the users, and REMOVE INCENTIVE from the sellers to make improvements, when the product has benefits and resources that inherently entail repeated ongoing use.
I realize this is somewhat of a "dark perspective" ... but it's a real derivative of the way that secular, investor-driven companies often work.
And btw ... were it not for that sweeping recent change in ownership, I would not have suggested the concerns that I have in this post.
Wellllll..... let's consider another side ok?
There are many millions of people that will "rent" or "Lease" their vehicles. In fact, I have done that in the past. I would argue that if the car "rental" companies never updated their vehicles... people would not "rent from them". I think the same is true with Logos. If Logos does "as you predict" sit on it's backsides and do not keep developing features to keep up with the ongoing and evolving digital world... I see that it won't be long before Logos is left in the dust and some other bible software will gleam all it's subscribers. That the way of the business world.
Because of that, I have every confidence that Logos wants to be around and as such will keep bringing on new and better features.
Just my 2 cents... which ain't worth nuttin.... [8-|]
xn = Christan man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".
Barney Fife is my hero! He only uses an abacus with 14 rows!
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xnman said:Jim Dean said:
Summary: Subscription models TRAP the users, and REMOVE INCENTIVE from the sellers to make improvements, when the product has benefits and resources that inherently entail repeated ongoing use.
I realize this is somewhat of a "dark perspective" ... but it's a real derivative of the way that secular, investor-driven companies often work.
And btw ... were it not for that sweeping recent change in ownership, I would not have suggested the concerns that I have in this post.
Wellllll..... let's consider another side ok?
There are many millions of people that will "rent" or "Lease" their vehicles. In fact, I have done that in the past. I would argue that if the car "rental" companies never updated their vehicles... people would not "rent from them". I think the same is true with Logos. If Logos does "as you predict" sit on it's backsides and do not keep developing features to keep up with the ongoing and evolving digital world... I see that it won't be long before Logos is left in the dust and some other bible software will gleam all it's subscribers. That the way of the business world.
Because of that, I have every confidence that Logos wants to be around and as such will keep bringing on new and better features.
Just my 2 cents... which ain't worth nuttin....
Except you go into renting or leasing a car knowing that is what your doing..... So that may be a fair analogy for new customers of Logos who only know subscription.... Not current and long time customers - And for "another side", you mention another Bible software company grabbing Logos' subscribers - it may just be the subscription model that pushes a lot of faithful customers to that "other"!
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 16 & Android 14
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Aaron Hamilton said:Wayne & Rebecca Birch said:
Pointing out corporate greed is not disparaging. Its calling things out the way they are.
According to who? At what point is the line crossed from wise business practice to corporate greed? What decisions are being used as a baseline to make such measurements? Pertaining to the situation at hand, No concrete decisions have been made about the subscription model going forward. All we have is an early access to a product that will be released in the Fall. This forum is a great place to voice thoughts and preferences pertaining to Logos Pro and the upcoming subscription model. But I see no reason to rush to judgements and accusations before the product has even been released.
Also no reason to not prepare just in case Faithlife (or the company they report to) decides to ignore the massive support for perpetual license purchasing that they received from the feedback they requested.... If their marching orders are to ignore us and try to push for subscription only, then are we supposed to just wait until fall, without investigating other options or prepare for a possible future of VM being our escape?
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 16 & Android 14
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Frank Sauer said:
If their marching orders are to ignore us and try to push for subscription only, then are we supposed to just wait until fall, without investigating other options or prepare for a possible future of VM being our escape?
Everyone is free to do as they please, of course. I find that it can be easy to rush to judgements and conclusions, especially in forums like this where misinformation easily spreads (no one is at fault for this. It's not realistic to expect people to comb through 1,000+ posts to see if their concerns have been addressed). Personally, I am optimistic about the future of Logos, and I believe the company will make decisions that clearly reflect their expressed concern for the opinions voiced by their users. I am willing to wait and see. I do not feel entitled to frequent updates in the decision-making process. I may be wrong in my assumptions and expectations. If so, I will be very disappointed. I also do not expect everyone to share my optimism. But I do believe that Christians are morally obligated to show a certain level of restraint when it comes to making judgements. Exactly where that line is crossed, however, I have no interest in trying to gauge.
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Just want to second Aaron's comments. I, too, am optimistic and having seen this thread from the beginning, I was never under the impression that a final decision would be rushed ahead of official release. I might be concerned if they did rush, actually.
I say this as someone who has spent, I think, a decent amount on Logos (approaching six figures since 2008 according to my order history page, which has been for my own library and for other users/pastors). In fact, I fully expect to stick with the new subscription. For years I would buy full feature and/or library, which, I believe, was more expensive than the connect (no library) subscription I had/have, which also offered 2% rewards on purchases. Every 2 years I knew I'd spend hundreds on upgrading for full features any way, so I never minded the subscription idea.
Let me hasten to add, though, that I do hope Logos continues to offer non-subscription feature upgrades for those who view it differently.
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@xnman think you are wrong to compare the two. Cars suffer attrition, depreciation. Books far less so and virtually non existent in the electronic form. Refer to previous posts about the dangers faced going down this route. Just pointing out that comparing a car rental company to a subscription model for books is fallacious at best, a straw man.
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xnman said:
Because of that, I have every confidence that Logos wants to be around and as such will keep bringing on new and better features.
Karl Fritz Jr. said:Just want to second Aaron's comments. I, too, am optimistic and having seen this thread from the beginning, I was never under the impression that a final decision would be rushed ahead of official release. I might be concerned if they did rush, actually.
I am optimistic as well. I am happy about some of the changes that I am seeing in beta that I feel will be useful — not only for me as I seek to study and teach, but likewise for students in group study. I am excited to share with my students the valuable tools for Bible study that I find in Logos.
Above all these things, walk in love, which is the bond of perfection. - Colossians 3:14
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Aaron Hamilton said:Frank Sauer said:
If their marching orders are to ignore us and try to push for subscription only, then are we supposed to just wait until fall, without investigating other options or prepare for a possible future of VM being our escape?
Everyone is free to do as they please, of course. I find that it can be easy to rush to judgements and conclusions, especially in forums like this where misinformation easily spreads (no one is at fault for this. It's not realistic to expect people to comb through 1,000+ posts to see if their concerns have been addressed). Personally, I am optimistic about the future of Logos, and I believe the company will make decisions that clearly reflect their expressed concern for the opinions voiced by their users. I am willing to wait and see. I do not feel entitled to frequent updates in the decision-making process. I may be wrong in my assumptions and expectations. If so, I will be very disappointed. I also do not expect everyone to share my optimism. But I do believe that Christians are morally obligated to show a certain level of restraint when it comes to making judgements. Exactly where that line is crossed, however, I have no interest in trying to gauge.
I suppose the man who fell out of a plane with no parachute, can be an optimist right up until he hit the ground. The Bible says we out to exercise judgement and discernmen, I don’t see any call to chastise anyone who has reservations about the future of this software and fair use of the resources purchased. why I can have pointed to is that corporate greed is a factor and that the company is essentially secular. Don’t expect them to hold the same values as Christians hold. I think that’s a fair assessmen, and think it’s unfair to call into question the moral of people who question the direction this is taking, when you look at the bigger picture of what’s happened in in the past, in the larger picture of corporate trends.
Time will be the judge here.
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Wayne & Rebecca Birch said:
Don’t expect them to hold the same values as Christians hold. I think that’s a fair assessmen, and think it’s unfair to call into question the moral of people who question the direction this is taking
Please try to not misrepresent my words. In my comment I said 1) I do not expect everyone to share my optimism and 2) I have no interest in trying to gauge where the moral line is crossed when making judgements. How do those comments translate into me questioning "the moral of people who question the direction this is taking"? Please allow me to clarify, lest I leave you with a false impression. I think it's great that everyone is free to voice their thoughts, preferences and opinions about this and every other matter within Logos. I think it's great that the team cares about our thoughts, preferences and opinions. I expect diversity. I certainly never expect everyone to feel as I feel about any matter. I hope that differences can be brought up and discussed in a respectful way. I understand that I occasionally fall short in this area, and for that I apologize. However, generally speaking, I appreciate it when my words are read in context for what they are, and not taken out of context and exaggerated. I will try to show others the same courtesy.
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Mark Barnes (Logos) said:Terry Thomas said:
So in short all that has been spent to this point has been wasted. Our books were never really ours. Now you change your platform and we all know that the day will come the without an ongoing subscription things will simply not work or be accessible. You have pulled the mother of all bait and switches in the name of improvements. This sure looks like a full on deception! Tell me what I have wrong here? You were developing and about to launch this at the same time I had sales people calling to get me to spend a lot of money to “upgrade” knowing that the features would likely disappear or be useless? Unless you all can produce some kind of ironclad guarantee regarding existing books/features and sustained support for existing platform non subscribers you have lost me as a customer, you will lose my church as a Faithlife Connect user, at least 5 other users in my church and I will be happy to warn everyone I know of your actions. I welcome your reply
By all means judge us by what we've done, and even judge us for what we say we will do. But please don't judge us for what you only imagine we will do, especially when we've gone out of our way to say that we will not do it.
Mark Barnes (Logos) said:Subscriptions aren’t required to maintain access to your existing content. They’re for those who want access to new and improved features. With Logos, your content investment is always safe, and you’ll always be able to access it for free. The subscription benefits listed above for features don’t apply to books in the same way, so we don’t foresee a time when we’ll stop selling perpetual licenses to books.
Oh well, maybe I am wrong. This post gave me hope and encouragement.
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Aaron Hamilton said:Wayne & Rebecca Birch said:
Don’t expect them to hold the same values as Christians hold. I think that’s a fair assessmen, and think it’s unfair to call into question the moral of people who question the direction this is taking
Please try to not misrepresent my words. In my comment I said 1) I do not expect everyone to share my optimism and 2) I have no interest in trying to gauge where the moral line is crossed when making judgements. How do those comments translate into me questioning "the moral of people who question the direction this is taking"? Please allow me to clarify, lest I leave you with a false impression. I think it's great that everyone is free to voice their thoughts, preferences and opinions about this and every other matter within Logos. I think it's great that the team cares about our thoughts, preferences and opinions. I expect diversity. I certainly never expect everyone to feel as I feel about any matter. I hope that differences can be brought up and discussed in a respectful way. I understand that I occasionally fall short in this area, and for that I apologize. However, generally speaking, I appreciate it when my words are read in context for what they are, and not taken out of context and exaggerated. I will try to show others the same courtesy.
I apologise Aaron, it was written in haste, and I didn't do justice in reading your post in depth. Forgive me for mischaracterizing your intent.
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Wayne & Rebecca Birch said:
I apologise Aaron, it was written in haste, and I didn't do justice in reading your post in depth. Forgive me for mischaracterizing your intent.
Of course, as long as you'll extend me the same grace when I'm the one in need of it [:)].
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Anytime
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Jim Dean said:
I've read the over-1000 posts (so far) on this thread, and I don't recall anyone mentioning this aspect of subscription-driven corporate work. This applies *now* to Faithlife, since it is *now* a secular organization, driven by the need to increase revenue for the shareholders. That's just the way it is, since Bob and many of his original family & crew have taken a much-deserved retirement.
I included the following in a post on April 7 (p.47). Maybe you missed itwhen reading through, Jim...
It is interesting to trace the chronology over the past few years.
In late 2021, Mr Bob Pritchett, on of the Founders, stepped down as CEO and Vik Rajagopal was appointed. In his post of Oct.25 last year, Vik stated "one of the changes I’ve made in my two years as CEO has been to reemphasize and reinvest in our core products – namely Logos Bible Software." He also foreshadowed the "next version of Logos" in the first half of 2024.
Vik also mentioned Bob Pritchett's ongoing role: "when I stepped in as CEO two years ago, Bob transitioned to a full-time position on our Board of Directors. He continues to serve as a Board member, and I (virtually) saw him just last week at our most recent Board meeting. He remains involved in the business and is an ongoing advocate for our customers and the overall user experience with Logos" (emphasis added).
Some time around this time, though, it seems that Bob (and perhaps other shareholder/s) sold a controlling majority of their shares to a venture capital company, Cove Hill Partners.
Not long after, on Feb.26 this year - 6 weeks ago - Vik posted, "But I’m actually writing to share a personal update with you all - that I am stepping down as CEO of Logos, effective today. I joined Logos nearly 3.5 years ago as CFO and succeeded Bob as CEO in late 2021." He also announced that the Logos Board had appointed a new CEO, Mr Bill McCarthy.
Then Mark Barnes announced on March 6 - 5 weeks ago - that Logos was moving to a subscription model for its users, to be introduced "later this year."
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Peter_G said:Jim Dean said:
I've read the over-1000 posts (so far) on this thread, and I don't recall anyone mentioning this aspect of subscription-driven corporate work. This applies *now* to Faithlife, since it is *now* a secular organization, driven by the need to increase revenue for the shareholders. That's just the way it is, since Bob and many of his original family & crew have taken a much-deserved retirement.
I included the following in a post on April 7 (p.47). Maybe you missed itwhen reading through, Jim...
It is interesting to trace the chronology over the past few years.
In late 2021, Mr Bob Pritchett, on of the Founders, stepped down as CEO and Vik Rajagopal was appointed. In his post of Oct.25 last year, Vik stated "one of the changes I’ve made in my two years as CEO has been to reemphasize and reinvest in our core products – namely Logos Bible Software." He also foreshadowed the "next version of Logos" in the first half of 2024.
Vik also mentioned Bob Pritchett's ongoing role: "when I stepped in as CEO two years ago, Bob transitioned to a full-time position on our Board of Directors. He continues to serve as a Board member, and I (virtually) saw him just last week at our most recent Board meeting. He remains involved in the business and is an ongoing advocate for our customers and the overall user experience with Logos" (emphasis added).
Some time around this time, though, it seems that Bob (and perhaps other shareholder/s) sold a controlling majority of their shares to a venture capital company, Cove Hill Partners.
Not long after, on Feb.26 this year - 6 weeks ago - Vik posted, "But I’m actually writing to share a personal update with you all - that I am stepping down as CEO of Logos, effective today. I joined Logos nearly 3.5 years ago as CFO and succeeded Bob as CEO in late 2021." He also announced that the Logos Board had appointed a new CEO, Mr Bill McCarthy.
Then Mark Barnes announced on March 6 - 5 weeks ago - that Logos was moving to a subscription model for its users, to be introduced "later this year."
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Hi Peter_G:
Yes I do remember that post and I found it interesting and informative. Thank you for the historical info.
The part of your post which my “I hope not but this is a possible future” post was addressing, has primarily to do with the venture-capital group “Cove Hill Partners”.
The Board, regardless of who is on it, has a legal primary fiduciary responsibility to the investors that make up the Cove Hill partnership.
If push comes to shove, Cove Hill can bring the hammer down on the board (presuming Cove Hill has majority voting stock control), and force the board to make choices that improve their investors’ net return.
My prior moderately long scenario-post posits that situation. If that happens (maybe it already has) then two things will naturally result:
1. Salary and overhead costs will be trimmed or slashed - this means fewer staff to do programming, debugging, and customer service. Typically the last staff category to be cut is sales - but since (I’m guessing) the majority of sales is automated from web page orders, sales staff may be cut too. Net result for customer would be “less-good” pre-and post-sale human assistance. AND (more to the point I was making in my OP), a VERY likely result is that fewer new features will be added, and they won’t be as robust, and they will come more slowly.
2. Revenue-generation methods will be overhauled, and products might have fewer discounting windows, but the main way Logos could significantly increase revenue very quickly is to get as many customers out the the millions it has historically, to start paying SOMETHING on a monthly basis, without Logos having to promise new specific, scheduled products/features. That is, the customer is paying MAINLY to maintain the status quo, and is HOPING new features will be added frequently enough to justify their cumulative subscription fees.
THE POINT I made is that if #1 is done, fewer developers/testers on staff means fewer features created over a given period of time. And if #2 is done, especially if #1 is also done, then a larger and larger percentage of the subscription fee revenues will simply translate directly to the bottom line, and from there to the investors - thus satisfying the company’s fiduciary obligations to them.
And THAT means people will be paying more and getting less - all the while, TRAPPED into the subscription if they want to keep the features that have been added since L10 build 32-ish
All that I’ve said is “educated, experienced extrapolation” with a cautionary pragmatic bent. I’ve personally been in executive positions, and on the Board of a holding company that actively managed five separate med-size businesses. So, I’m hoping that qualifies me to speak to this issue (in addition to business education and experience).
And, as I said before, I would not be writing this except for the change in ownership to Cove Hill, a secular investment group.
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Redeeming the time (Eph.5:16+Col.4:5) ... Win 10, iOS & iPadOS 16
Jim Dean0 -
Jim Dean said:Peter_G said:Jim Dean said:
I've read the over-1000 posts (so far) on this thread, and I don't recall anyone mentioning this aspect of subscription-driven corporate work. This applies *now* to Faithlife, since it is *now* a secular organization, driven by the need to increase revenue for the shareholders. That's just the way it is, since Bob and many of his original family & crew have taken a much-deserved retirement.
I included the following in a post on April 7 (p.47). Maybe you missed itwhen reading through, Jim...
It is interesting to trace the chronology over the past few years.
In late 2021, Mr Bob Pritchett, on of the Founders, stepped down as CEO and Vik Rajagopal was appointed. In his post of Oct.25 last year, Vik stated "one of the changes I’ve made in my two years as CEO has been to reemphasize and reinvest in our core products – namely Logos Bible Software." He also foreshadowed the "next version of Logos" in the first half of 2024.
Vik also mentioned Bob Pritchett's ongoing role: "when I stepped in as CEO two years ago, Bob transitioned to a full-time position on our Board of Directors. He continues to serve as a Board member, and I (virtually) saw him just last week at our most recent Board meeting. He remains involved in the business and is an ongoing advocate for our customers and the overall user experience with Logos" (emphasis added).
Some time around this time, though, it seems that Bob (and perhaps other shareholder/s) sold a controlling majority of their shares to a venture capital company, Cove Hill Partners.
Not long after, on Feb.26 this year - 6 weeks ago - Vik posted, "But I’m actually writing to share a personal update with you all - that I am stepping down as CEO of Logos, effective today. I joined Logos nearly 3.5 years ago as CFO and succeeded Bob as CEO in late 2021." He also announced that the Logos Board had appointed a new CEO, Mr Bill McCarthy.
Then Mark Barnes announced on March 6 - 5 weeks ago - that Logos was moving to a subscription model for its users, to be introduced "later this year."
===============================
Hi Peter_G:
Yes I do remember that post and I found it interesting and informative. Thank you for the historical info.
The part of your post which my “I hope not but this is a possible future” post was addressing, has primarily to do with the venture-capital group “Cove Hill Partners”.
The Board, regardless of who is on it, has a legal primary fiduciary responsibility to the investors that make up the Cove Hill partnership.
If push comes to shove, Cove Hill can bring the hammer down on the board (presuming Cove Hill has majority voting stock control), and force the board to make choices that improve their investors’ net return.
My prior moderately long scenario-post posits that situation. If that happens (maybe it already has) then two things will naturally result:
1. Salary and overhead costs will be trimmed or slashed - this means fewer staff to do programming, debugging, and customer service. Typically the last staff category to be cut is sales - but since (I’m guessing) the majority of sales is automated from web page orders, sales staff may be cut too. Net result for customer would be “less-good” pre-and post-sale human assistance. AND (more to the point I was making in my OP), a VERY likely result is that fewer new features will be added, and they won’t be as robust, and they will come more slowly.
2. Revenue-generation methods will be overhauled, and products might have fewer discounting windows, but the main way Logos could significantly increase revenue very quickly is to get as many customers out the the millions it has historically, to start paying SOMETHING on a monthly basis, without Logos having to promise new specific, scheduled products/features. That is, the customer is paying MAINLY to maintain the status quo, and is HOPING new features will be added frequently enough to justify their cumulative subscription fees.
THE POINT I made is that if #1 is done, fewer developers/testers on staff means fewer features created over a given period of time. And if #2 is done, especially if #1 is also done, then a larger and larger percentage of the subscription fee revenues will simply translate directly to the bottom line, and from there to the investors - thus satisfying the company’s fiduciary obligations to them.
And THAT means people will be paying more and getting less - all the while, TRAPPED into the subscription if they want to keep the features that have been added since L10 build 32-ish
All that I’ve said is “educated, experienced extrapolation” with a cautionary pragmatic bent. I’ve personally been in executive positions, and on the Board of a holding company that actively managed five separate med-size businesses. So, I’m hoping that qualifies me to speak to this issue (in addition to business education and experience).
And, as I said before, I would not be writing this except for the change in ownership to Cove Hill, a secular investment group.
I would agree with your assessment on this. It is the job a good sales team to make sure the customer perceives a benefit, and as someone mentioned before, the company "lands and expands". The subscription fee you get now, will intentionally low, the perception of a large benefit, only to expand the fee with less or the same benefits. Like many have pointed out, there are a limited number of features Logos can potentially roll out, and once those features have been rolled out, then the pressure of finding new features will happen. Enter the true AI features, and the beginning of a very slippery slope for teachers who rely on AI.
Its why I used an analogy earlier of a man outside a plane with no parachute. Initially he is closer to the plane than to the ground. Its easy to be positive when you are right out the plane. Maybe someone will also jump out and rescue me as I am falling? But once you jump, you are committed. I guess I take your view with this, because it is similar. Once you start down a path, when you take the circumstantial context in which this business operates, the politics of boards, investment and shareholders, the pathway is well worn and predictable.
I think optimism in general when it comes to situations like this are fraught with the danger of disappointment. It is why I take the negative view. In the case that I am proven wrong, at least I won't be disappointed. I just think this thing should be fought against. What you see now is the view right out the plane where you think you have your parachute on. As time goes on, you suspect you might have forgotten something. The ground, in my opinion, is the introduction of a language model AI doing research, which from my own professional experience, is definitely not something you want to apply to Biblical studies.
I think your summary and speculations will prove to be more accurate than we all like, despite assurances from the Board, marketing or the CEO. As we have seen, things can change fairly quickly. When you have a fuller picture, a bit down the track, I would be willing to bet people will cast at least a cursory look backwards and think, "Maybe I should have voiced some concern".
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Here's a recent video update on Logos Pro, with comments about subscriptions near the end of the video.
You may need to be signed into the Logos.com in order to access this material.
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Well I'm encouraged. It sounded to me at the end of the video that Mark Barnes more or less said they are planning to release feature packages for sale in the Fall. That should alleviate a lot of concern.
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This thread has had lots of pros and cons to what is planned by Logos. I have one simple basic question. If I don't choose to subscribe for the first few months and say 4 new features are added, do I get those 4 features or do I only get those that are added after I subscribe?
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Randall Cue said:
This thread has had lots of pros and cons to what is planned by Logos. I have one simple basic question. If I don't choose to subscribe for the first few months and say 4 new features are added, do I get those 4 features or do I only get those that are added after I subscribe?
Based on what they have described, if the features belong to the package for which you subscribed, then yes, you would get those features. Everything they have said indicates that all subscribers will be current. There will not be older subscribers who have greater access than newer subscribers for any given subscription. That being said, it does appear that they will continue to offer different tiers of features, just as they have done in the past. So someone who is subscribed to a less expensive package will not have all of the features that are available in a more expensive subscription. We'll have to wait until the Fall to see exactly how it will look, however.
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Thank you Aaron for your take. I would like to hear some official word on this matter.
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My observation of the new proposed subscription based offering is that logos does not have many new features/enhancements/tools to offer with the next release. They are trying to create excitement with "AI" as there only new substantial offering. There will possibly be a promise of forthcoming new features with subscription, but it will be a maintenance subscription; fixing errors highlighted by users and packaging them as enhancements. As users mentioned previously; there is nothing that excites me personally to look forward to the new expected logos release/subscription.
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Yep,
I pray that Logos doesnt do this. But every subscription model has the very fine print saying you never “own” it. It is at the company‘s Will to remove, take away, etc. So what happens if you don‘t pay for a few months? You revert back to what you had before the subscription.
I will say this. If they made it to where people can do the monthly thing fine. But for us that dont. Let us buy whatever updates yearly. And that we “actually” own them. I am perfectly fine waiting a year if it means I actually own it.0 -
I like the idea of having both options, either to purchase to own, or subscribe.
I've been paying for Logos Now for almost 8 years instead of buying the Full Feature set back in 2016. I want to continue doing this, but I definitely also want to have the option to buy the features out right if and when I decide to stop my subscription.How about a 'rent to own' option, this could work for courses?
"Your speech must always be with grace, as though seasoned with salt, so that you will know how you should respond to each person." - Colossians 4:6
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Mark Barnes (Logos) said:
Instant Dark/Light Mode allows you to switch between light and dark mode on desktop without requiring you to restart Logos.
[^o)]
"Your speech must always be with grace, as though seasoned with salt, so that you will know how you should respond to each person." - Colossians 4:6
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NathanL said:Mark Barnes (Logos) said:
Instant Dark/Light Mode allows you to switch between light and dark mode on desktop without requiring you to restart Logos.
😂 Exactly my thoughts! 😂
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diederick pütter said:
My observation of the new proposed subscription based offering is that logos does not have many new features/enhancements/tools to offer with the next release. They are trying to create excitement with "AI" as there only new substantial offering. There will possibly be a promise of forthcoming new features with subscription, but it will be a maintenance subscription; fixing errors highlighted by users and packaging them as enhancements. As users mentioned previously; there is nothing that excites me personally to look forward to the new expected logos release/subscription.
Fixing errors or stuff that has long been unfinished or never worked right is a plus. Otherwise, we might have to live with it--maybe forever,
Tyrel Briscoe said:Yep,
I pray that Logos doesn't do this. But every subscription model has the very fine print saying you never “own” it. It is at the company‘s Will to remove, take away, etc. So what happens if you don‘t pay for a few months? You revert back to what you had before the subscription.
I will say this. If they made it to where people can do the monthly thing fine. But for us that don't. Let us buy whatever updates yearly. And that we “actually” own them. I am perfectly fine waiting a year if it means I actually own it.Some things are little hard to own. Like a Ferris wheel ride or a trip to the Smithsonian. The experience is what we take with us. Some other things are hard to own too, like a freeway, but my taxes probably maintain 50 feet or so of it, but I get to drive the whole thing because of how it is funded. So, there is that. What if Logos sells what is saleable, but lets us subscribe in order to get on some "freeway" of service without having to buy the whole thing when it's not something we could keep anyway? If so...what is that "freeway" thing? I can't quite imagine--I am pretty sure it's not anything AI as it is offered now, but supposedly we are in for some happy surprises!
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DAL said:NathanL said:Mark Barnes (Logos) said:
Instant Dark/Light Mode allows you to switch between light and dark mode on desktop without requiring you to restart Logos.
😂 Exactly my thoughts! 😂
Thats more like punishment than reward (which isn't Mark's fault), but not for me--I don't use it anyway. I just hope it isn't a harbinger of the new Logos.
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DAL said:NathanL said:Mark Barnes (Logos) said:
Instant Dark/Light Mode allows you to switch between light and dark mode on desktop without requiring you to restart Logos.
😂 Exactly my thoughts! 😂
Hi NathanL,
I have no problem if Logos wants to charge subscription for immediate access to fixes to its software. But we should be able to buy this in 2 years (given its current 2-year cycle). But allowing access only through subscriptions to bug-fixes/modest-improvements for features already purchased is what people are worried about.
This post is too long for anyone from Logos to notice. Could you start please a new post with this. I would like to hear Mark Barnes or anyone from Logos comment on this.
Thanks
I believe in a Win-Win-Win God.
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1Cor10 31 said:
I have no problem if Logos wants to charge subscription for immediate access to fixes to its software. But we should be able to buy this in 2 years (given its current 2-year cycle). But allowing access only through subscriptions to bug-fixes/modest-improvements for features already purchased is what people are worried about.
This post is too long for anyone from Logos to notice. Could you start please a new post with this. I would like to hear Mark Barnes or anyone from Logos comment on this.
Thanks
I think they said previously when someone called them out about it that eventually that would (probably) be rolled out to everyone.
For me, if that's one of the benefits they are going to lead with, it doesn't make the subscription seem all that worth it.
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(Parenthetical comment because its only partly on-topic)
Does this discussion set the record for long? Even longer than the Dating Site discussion? Longer than "Dracula?"
It seems to have broken my "Last" button. Clicking "Last" takes me back to "First" and believe me, I don't want to go there!0 -
GaoLu said:
Clicking "Last" takes me back to "First" and believe me, I don't want to go there!
This happens when the final post, the post that caused the page break, gets deleted
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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GaoLu said:
(Parenthetical comment because its only partly on-topic)
Does this discussion set the record for long? Even longer than the Dating Site discussion? Longer than "Dracula?"
It seems to have broken my "Last" button. Clicking "Last" takes me back to "First" and believe me, I don't want to go there!The Linux post still has this one beat, but only by 550 replies.
Above all these things, walk in love, which is the bond of perfection. - Colossians 3:14
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1Cor10 31 said:
allowing access only through subscriptions to bug-fixes/modest-improvements for features already purchased is what people are worried about.
Bug fixes will be made available for free to all users. This has been promised with clarity. Modest improvements for features already purchased... well that is a different matter - partly because the question itself is vague. What, precisely, is a "modest" improvement? If the improvement is similar to a bug fix that allows the feature to work as it was intended to work, they have more or less said that that would be rolled out without requiring an additional purchase/subscription. If it expands the feature with new functionality, I wouldn't expect that to be rolled out for free, even if it was a "modest" improvement.
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GaoLu said:
It seems to have broken my "Last" button. Clicking "Last" takes me back to "First" and believe me, I don't want to go there!
Instead of clicking on "Last", click on "Latest Post."
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Aaron Hamilton said:
1Cor10 31">allowing access only through subscriptions to bug-fixes/modest-improvements for features already purchased is what people are worried about.
Bug fixes will be made available for free to all users. This has been promised with clarity. Modest improvements for features already purchased... well that is a different matter - partly because the question itself is vague. What, precisely, is a "modest" improvement? If the improvement is similar to a bug fix that allows the feature to work as it was intended to work, they have more or less said that that would be rolled out without requiring an additional purchase/subscription. If it expands the feature with new functionality, I wouldn't expect that to be rolled out for free, even if it was a "modest" improvement.
I am a finance person and we say that there is nothing called free lunch. Only God's unconditional love is free. I am not asking for free lunch and I am sure no one here is asking for free lunch.
Dark mode is a feature that we have. Being able to toggle between light and dark modes without restarting Logos is not a new functionality. Every device has this functionality. It should have been there when they inaugurated the functionality. But Logos is now requiring subscription to get this functionality that they should have had in the first place. That is why requiring subscription is objectionable.
Btw, I'm sorry...did I miss the announcement that you're an official spokesperson whose job is to bat for Logos?
I believe in a Win-Win-Win God.
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It's hard to see subscription dark mode toggle as anything other than a huge PR blunder. Really, what did they think the upside to it would be?
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1Cor10 31 said:
Btw, I'm sorry...did I miss the announcement that you're an official spokesperson whose job is to bat for Logos?
I'm just trying to summarize material that I have read in this gigantic thread for you. If you'd rather get the material from the original source, feel free to start at page one. I am clueless as to what you mean when you talk about me batting for Logos. If trying to save you time by summarizing comments that I have read amounts to batting for Logos, then sure... I guess I am... And while I'm at it, I might as well let you know that somewhere in this thread I recall Mark Barnes specifically mentioning the improved dark mode integration as something they might include in the free version of the software, probably for the reasons you mentioned (even if you're not asking for a free lunch, you'll still get a few. Guess they're just generous?)
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1Cor10 31 said:
Btw, I'm sorry...did I miss the announcement that you're an official spokesperson whose job is to bat for Logos?
I'm just trying to summarize material that I have read in this gigantic thread for you. If you'd rather get the material from the original source, feel free to start at page one. I am clueless as to what you mean when you talk about me batting for Logos. If trying to save you time by summarizing comments that I have read amounts to batting for Logos, then sure... I guess I am... And while I'm at it, I might as well let you know that somewhere in this thread I recall Mark Barnes specifically mentioning dark mode integration as something they might integrate into the free version of the software, probably for the reasons you mentioned (even if you're not asking for a free lunch, you'll still get a few. Guess they're just generous?)
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Aaron Hamilton said:
1Cor10 31">Btw, I'm sorry...did I miss the announcement that you're an official spokesperson whose job is to bat for Logos?
I'm just trying to summarize material that I have read in this gigantic thread for you. If you'd rather get the material from the original source, feel free to start at page one. I am clueless as to what you mean when you talk about me batting for Logos. If trying to save you time by summarizing comments that I have read amounts to batting for Logos, then sure... I guess I am...
awright, thanks.
Aaron Hamilton said:And while I'm at it, I might as well let you know that somewhere in this thread I recall Mark Barnes specifically mentioning the improved dark mode integration as something they might include in the free version of the software, probably for the reasons you mentioned (even if you're not asking for a free lunch, you'll still get a few. Guess they're just generous?)
btw, Logos is not being generous when they give you free resources. By your logic, is Google being super generous because their search engine is free? (btw, Google made $175 billion in search ad revenue in 2023)
By allowing people to sample and experiment, Logos is trying to help people see that they can benefit and, thhus, convert them to long-term paying customers. This is good business sense and not being generous.
I believe in a Win-Win-Win God.
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I have been largely offline for the past year, and so this is the first I'm seeing of this.
I did sign up for the 30 day trial. However, I am not a fan of another monthly payment.
A purchase option makes the most sense to me.
But we shall see.L2 lvl4 (...) WORDsearch, all the way through L10,
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Accidentally double posted some how.
L2 lvl4 (...) WORDsearch, all the way through L10,
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1Cor10 31 said:
By allowing people to sample and experiment, Logos is trying to help people see that they can benefit and, thhus, convert them to long-term paying customers. This is good business sense and not being generous.
Agree 100%. It seems to me that in this case your signature line is quite fitting. Also, in all seriousness, you seem like a very bright guy. I bet if you looked at my bank statements for the last three months you could tell me ten different ways to increase my wealth.
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I will not be purchasing a subscription, but I would purchase feature upgrades or new versions. I do not have a resource allowance or similar, so cash purchases when I can save up for it is the only viable option for me. Please don't eliminate purchase/perpetual ownership options.
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TLDR: How can I see what it would cost to buy all my “temporary access” resources (through “Faithlife Connect Essentials”), so I have access to all I’m currently using when the new subscription model drops?
LONGER VERSION
I have been a Logos user since version 2.0. I just recently threw out the two program floppies and one provided for license backups. I have nearly 7,500 permanent resources I own through the years and have systematically passed on my print library as I move digitally. Logos is my “bread and butter” software for ministry. When I was at seminary, Gramcord (sp?) for DOS was used and when I graduated, Windows 95 was just a year old. Knowing how I had to research before Logos, I never want to go back.
I have been a “Faithlife Connect Essentials” (formerly “Logos Now”) subscriber for some time as well, though once in awhile, I will actually also ‘purchase’ a package upgrade as well so that, if I ever need to unsubscribe, I will be at a not-too-outdated software level I can keep using.
Seeing where things are going, I suspect I will (grudgingly) subscribe, but exploring any other options I may have.
Through my subscription, I have “temporary access” to a lot of resources (290). I can see what those are through the Logos library,” but can’t do a simple search for those on the website store. To wit: I would like to see a list of what each of these “temporary” resources (or packages, as is more likely) would cost to “own” them, so I would still have access to what I’ve been using should I decide not to move to the “Logos Pro” subscription. (I know it will be a lot.) I can find no simple way to do this.
Even though I currently have a subscription, I am not excited about this move. (It doesn’t help that there is no resource to show what I will have to give up from my “Faithlife Connect Essentials” subscription if moving to the “Logos Pro” one when the change is made.
Thank you.
I should also note that I also pay for a "Faithlife Connect Essentials" subscription for my son, who has one more year at the seminary, so this isn't just an academic (!) situation for me, but for the future of those in ministry.
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