Official: You Can Now Get Early Access to the Next Version of Logos
Comments
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I personally wouldn't have used the word "forever" in that marketing copy, but there are two main ways I see of interpreting it:
- You receive a permanent license to the feature. It's not a rental or a subscription. If you buy Logos 8 Gold today but Logos 9 Bronze in two years, you don't lose the feature because you "downgraded"; instead, your license rolls into the next major version of the software (and dynamic pricing means you never pay for it twice). Maybe some features do eventually get deprecated, but we have sold you a permanent license to a downloadable copy of the software and you can keep running it on an air-gapped VM for the rest of your life.
- You have made a one-time purchase of the "platonic ideal" of a particular feature, and Logos will upgrade and enhance that feature to be compatible with all future computing devices and operating systems yet without changing the core nature of the feature in ways that could be considered deprecating or obsoleting. Logos will also throw in various improvements to the feature for free without requiring any additional payment for those improvements. This will continue forever, including past the Resurrection and the Final Judgment.
I think you're expecting (2) and are upset that the company's position is (1); is that an accurate summary? (And if (2) doesn't encapsulate your position, then perhaps you could state exactly what you do think should be included in "forever" ownership of a feature?)
Almost everything you've bought in the past can be run forever if you freeze the software at the version you bought it at (and make an offline backup of your licenses). (There are some features that do require an online dataset to run and I agree we shouldn't be promising literal "forever" access to those because that's not within our power to provide.)
They have deprecated some, renamed and then sold as new
If you're claiming that Logos Sermon Builder is nothing more than a renamed LDLS Sermon File Addin, then I submit that you're arguing in extremely bad faith. Literally the only thing in common between the two products is the word "Sermon" in the title (and, I suppose, the target market).
There has been a lot of confusion. Thank you, Bradley, for the clarification.
Blessings in Christ.
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3. What will happen to our existing Logos version we are using? For example, I have Logos 10 with full features, will it remain fully functional as it stands or get deprecated? Will it get bug fixes still? If so for how long? Will an update remove or limit functionality without a subscription? Will we be notified to this change so we can decide not to install that update?
4. If our version of Logos whether 8, 9 ,or 10 remains fully functional will all books added to Logos still be supported? Will changes from AI impact the resources and cause them to no longer function with our current version without a subscription?
Paul,
You should understand that versioning of the Logos engine is now strict numeric following the Library Upgrade called Logos 10. The current version is 33.0 and the policy is to push free updates to users with supported OS (the next version of the engine will be 34.0). If you remain on Logos 9 or older versions of the engine then you will miss updates that enhance your Features and fix bugs, including those that affect books. Also, the older version may not support some new books. AI does not change the way that your books are built. AI features like Insights and Summarize help you understand chapters or articles in your books and the AI "Smart" search is just another way to search for information.
If you have Logos 10 Features, some could be renamed/deprecated/withdrawn in the future as has happened in the past with Faithlife Assistant (withdrawn), Timeline (now Advanced Timeline), Graphs (now Charts). Community Notes is scheduled to be withdrawn. Some features will be enhanced as was Search with L10. I doubt that L10 features will be made fully AI, but AI functionality could be added (as with Search and Sermon Builder).
As it currently stands, you don't need subscription to maintain L10 features enhanced by AI, but new Features will require subscription unless they can be offered for purchase (but it is doubtful that AI Features would be available). FL have to decide exactly how they will support users who do not want to subscribe.
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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I personally wouldn't have used the word "forever" in that marketing copy, but there are two main ways I see of interpreting it:
- You receive a permanent license to the feature. It's not a rental or a subscription. If you buy Logos 8 Gold today but Logos 9 Bronze in two years, you don't lose the feature because you "downgraded"; instead, your license rolls into the next major version of the software (and dynamic pricing means you never pay for it twice). Maybe some features do eventually get deprecated, but we have sold you a permanent license to a downloadable copy of the software and you can keep running it on an air-gapped VM for the rest of your life.
- You have made a one-time purchase of the "platonic ideal" of a particular feature, and Logos will upgrade and enhance that feature to be compatible with all future computing devices and operating systems yet without changing the core nature of the feature in ways that could be considered deprecating or obsoleting. Logos will also throw in various improvements to the feature for free without requiring any additional payment for those improvements. This will continue forever, including past the Resurrection and the Final Judgment.
I think you're expecting (2) and are upset that the company's position is (1); is that an accurate summary? (And if (2) doesn't encapsulate your position, then perhaps you could state exactly what you do think should be included in "forever" ownership of a feature?)
Almost everything you've bought in the past can be run forever if you freeze the software at the version you bought it at (and make an offline backup of your licenses). (There are some features that do require an online dataset to run and I agree we shouldn't be promising literal "forever" access to those because that's not within our power to provide.)
They have deprecated some, renamed and then sold as new
If you're claiming that Logos Sermon Builder is nothing more than a renamed LDLS Sermon File Addin, then I submit that you're arguing in extremely bad faith. Literally the only thing in common between the two products is the word "Sermon" in the title (and, I suppose, the target market).
Bradley - Thank you for the response!
In relation to Point 1 - is that fully accurate? I had been able to use the Libronix engine and features through VM/Compatability Mode without issue, until the activation servers were shut down. So once I ran into a need for reinstall - it was no longer possible - if you have a still functioning work around I'd love to give it a go. If you are referring solely to the Logos engine, there's concern of a "Libronix" deprecation effect leading to forced subscription for me, without the purchase upgrade option. Or as your illustration of upgrading from version to version - there are features updated and some not updated - so we could be stuck running an old engine for a deprecated feature and not have access to the new features we own without running dual installs of the application.
Point 2 is what is marketed, but really never has been consistently applied and much grace has been given by users in support of the company. For me it is the subscription only nonsense that is the last straw. I have continued to upgrade, in spite of the "forever" marketing and have paid for features I own that were renamed, updated and expanded without complaint because I enjoyed supporting the product.
As for claiming Sermon Builder - I've not mentioned Sermon Builder, that is a different module all together from Sermon File. The "new" Sermon Importer introduced in L10 is functionally an updated Sermon File Addin IMHO. It's what many of us were asking for back with the conversion to L4.
Due to the contradictory statements, lack of answers of any kind and some of the past issues - I am concerned that we are going to be forced into a subscription or not be able to upgrade going forward. That is the main issue, as none of the sales pitch nor consistent presentation of Loogs has ever led us to understand the need of possibly being stuck with running an old engine in a VM to maintain access without having to pay for access.
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 15 & Android 14
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That is the main issue, as none of the sales pitch nor consistent presentation of Loogs has ever led us to understand the need of possibly being stuck with running an old engine in a VM to maintain access without having to pay for access.
That caught me by surprise. The other, probably unintensional, was the purchaser's life as an end-point (presumably not the willed owner). Not band-wagoning, but this whole discussion is highlighting a murky business/customer relationship. Even back at L4, I wondered who took ownership of customer notes, sermons, etc. I think a lot was associated with trusting Bob.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Graham Criddle
Thanks for the reply but that button you showed in your quote does not appear on my web page. How do I get it to show up? I use Microsoft Edge on a microsoft surface book 2 on windows 11.
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Graham Criddle
Thanks for the reply but that button you showed in your quote does not appear on my web page. How do I get it to show up? I use Microsoft Edge on a microsoft surface book 2 on windows 11.
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How do I get it to show up?
You have to be creating a reply. Once you've hit reply and the input screen shows, the quote option should appear.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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In relation to Point 1 - is that fully accurate? I had been able to use the Libronix engine and features through VM/Compatability Mode without issue, until the activation servers were shut down.
The "activation servers" were entirely optional in Libronix DLS: they could be used to restore your licenses "from the cloud", but Tools > Restore Licenses (I believe that was the menu item, it's been a while) was always the recommended way to restore a completely offline backup. And now that I think about it, I believe the first-time run dialog offered multiple options (including the servers and a license backup file, as well as entering a user name and confirmation code) to activate the software.
That said, if you never made a Libronix license backup file you would be (almost) completely out of luck. We still have a button in our internal systems that (allegedly) emails a license backup file to the customer. I'm going to click it on your account, but it's possible that this button has not been clicked by CS in the last five years and the underlying functionality has atrophied and become inoperable.
If you are referring solely to the Logos engine, there's concern of a "Libronix" deprecation effect leading to forced subscription for me, without the purchase upgrade option.
While this may be a case of po-tay-to, po-tah-to, Libronix to Logos wasn't a "forced deprecation effort" (in terms of internal motivation for the platform change, although I understand why it could have been seen that way from the outside). The underlying technology used to build Libronix had grown very long in the tooth and would have been increasingly costly for us to maintain (and offer the same set of features as Logos did). Virtually every program either goes out of business, or has to rewrite to keep up with technological changes.
I can't comment on "forced subscription" as I don't believe anything Mark has posted on this forum about our current plans for moving to a subscription model has stated (or even implied) that a subscription will be "required" or "forced" on all users.
I will admit that the Logos engine is harder to install in a fully offline scenario. What I would strongly recommend for anyone who wants to keep a particular version of Logos running "forever" is to install it now, online, in a VM and back up that entire VM including the OS. You can then keep running it offline (with the current set of features and books) indefinitely, as long as there's a company (or community) supporting running the underlying OS under virtualization on the hardware of the future. (For obvious reasons, I'd recommend virtualizing the Windows version, not macOS. Wine on Linux might also be an option for long-term support, but I suspect it still needs a little more maturity.)
Or as your illustration of upgrading from version to version - there are features updated and some not updated - so we could be stuck running an old engine for a deprecated feature and not have access to the new features we own without running dual installs of the application.
Yes, that is a drawback of having a "swiss army knife" application that does everything all in one program, instead of a more modular approach. I don't have a good suggestion for this, sorry. (For example, if you were someone who loved the Handouts feature from Logos 4, there would be no better option than keeping an old Logos 4 install running somewhere. Or version 8.4 if you wanted to use the latest one that could create handouts, or version 26 for the latest one that could read handouts.)
As for claiming Sermon Builder - I've not mentioned Sermon Builder, that is a different module all together from Sermon File. The "new" Sermon Importer introduced in L10 is functionally an updated Sermon File Addin IMHO.
Sorry, I misremembered what you had posted in the past and didn't go back to double-check before posting. I apologise for that.
That said, the Sermon Importer was also completely written from scratch (to be based on top of the Logos 4 Personal Book Builder feature) and shares no code (AFAIK) with LDLS 3 Sermon File. It's not simply a renamed feature (although it does serve a very similar purpose).
Due to the contradictory statements, lack of answers of any kind and some of the past issues - I am concerned that we are going to be forced into a subscription or not be able to upgrade going forward.
Again, I know of no plans for forced subscriptions. There has been talk that some new features will be available by subscription only. In my terminology, no one is "forced" to pay for a new feature that never existed before, but is new and only available at all via subscription. (I would reserve "forced subscription" for, say, an announcement that a subscription fee is now required for even basic e-reader functionality and if you don't pay it, your investment in Logos ebooks becomes worthless. Mark has posted multiple times, including in the OP, that this won't happen: "No one will be forced to subscribe to Logos to retain access to their existing content.")
Now with upgrades to existing features, perhaps it feels like more of a grey area. I personally (not speaking on behalf of the company) see it as more of a "free market" situation: Logos offers the upgraded feature at a particular price, or as part of a particular subscription, and customers decide whether they want to purchase it or not. I've been on the other end of that as a software purchaser and sometimes I've thought that the subscription price for improvements and ongoing development has been worth it (and I've subscribed), and other times I've thought that the company is just trying to sell me what I already had, but for a recurring monthly fee (and I've not subscribed).
Obviously there has been a lot of user feedback on this thread about how a perpetual purchase option is still greatly desired. I know this is all being read and seriously taken under consideration by the team planning out the new feature sets for the next version of Logos. At this point, I don't think we have any updates to the original thread to announce.
That is the main issue, as none of the sales pitch nor consistent presentation of Loogs has ever led us to understand the need of possibly being stuck with running an old engine in a VM to maintain access without having to pay for access.
Again, I'll repeat Mark's sentence from the OP: "No one will be forced to subscribe to Logos to retain access to their existing content ... you will still be able to buy permanent access to Logos libraries and any other books from our catalog."
I wasn't promoting the use of a VM above as a way to maintain access to existing purchased content, but more as an illustration that there is a way to run a particular version "forever" if features change during the development of the software.
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Bradley,
Again. much appreciation for your time to respond. You have always been a great representative and user friendly member of the staff there.
When many of us are talking about our concern of being "forced" into a subscription to maintain access, it is because Mark has contradicted his statement that we will keep our features, or at best left out the need to keep an outdated engine running to accomplish this, possibly in a VM depending on the situation.
Mark made it clear in the response to my question that I have posted the quote several times. that improved Features would be behind the subscription or for purchase IF offered. You are the first from Faithlife to even attempt to address these concerns in the weeks since, in spite of my multiple requests for customer contact and others from Faithlife responding in the same or other threads.
So, if features are improved and locked behind a paywall, our only option is to subscribe to continue with an updated engine with OS compatability and bug fixes, or if we want to keep the now updated feature active without paying we lose the bug fixes....
I've even asked if the plan was to follow an "Office 24/Office 365" type setup, where my purchased "Office 24" will have its "engine" and will get feature updates and bug fixes that apply to the purchased application and the "365" subscription application will have the more frequent updates and benefits to its "engine".... Since from my recollection, this has not been the path for Logos and honestly seems like it would add a greater financial burden for the maintenance of seperate engines - I didn't think that was going to be the path and asked with no response of any kind.
If both a subscription model and perpetual license purchase are offered, these issues/concerns go away for the most part. It also keeps a broader and based upon feedback happier customer base interested in the Logos system. We all realize that some Features reliant on AI would have an added cost, but many have expressed they have no interest in that avenue or are not willing to pay for it. So allowing the purchase only (minus AI features), purchase plus (pay for AI) and subscription tiers would be beneficial to all of us, thus best opportunity for continued customer support for Logos going forward, that is assuming continued fair pricing of Feature Sets and not a drastic increase in price for those who wish to purchase.
*** Also, the mantra has been that we will continue to have the ability to purchase books, etc.... Is there a plan to reintroduce the long missed Libronix feature of having the option of what is updated? If not, to allow the books we purchase to download and install, we have the extra work of not allowing auto updates and trying to make sure that we don't accidently allow an application update to avoid the above issues. If an option is available to block application updates and allow books only - it could continue to work without tap dancing through purchases and updates to maintain our functionality.
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 15 & Android 14
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That is the main issue, as none of the sales pitch nor consistent presentation of Loogs has ever led us to understand the need of possibly being stuck with running an old engine in a VM to maintain access without having to pay for access.
That caught me by surprise. The other, probably unintensional, was the purchaser's life as an end-point (presumably not the willed owner). Not band-wagoning, but this whole discussion is highlighting a murky business/customer relationship. Even back at L4, I wondered who took ownership of customer notes, sermons, etc. I think a lot was associated with trusting Bob.
Yes, a lot has changed and we really haven't emphasized the effect of all this on the promise of passing Logos on in inheritance that we were always promised..... I hope everything works out and am thankful for Bradley, who has always been a great help personally, but he is the ONLY staff member who has even attempted to take the time to address the concerns here. Big difference from when he, Phil, Dan and Bob wouuld have been responding, emailing, calling (especially when requested) and giving clear response and direction.
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 15 & Android 14
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Again. much appreciation for your time to respond. You have always been a great representative and user friendly member of the staff there
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Blessings in Christ.
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This is severely disappointing.
I'm thankful that Logos won't be nuking the features and books we've purchased, but moving to an exclusively subscription based model is the easiest way to lose my support. It's shifting Logos into that "you don't actually own anything and we can take it away anytime we feel like it" model that so many other companies are already in. While us older customers will, thankfully, get to keep our things, the next generation of Logos users will be giving a great reason to look back at paper libraries, or even your competitors. When starting out, I certainly didn't want to pour a lot of money into something that will up and vanish at the drop of a hat. Real paper books you pay for once and become and investment into your lifetime of Christian service. Logos, now, will only last as long as you continually fork over money again and again.
I've been ticked off again and again when Amazon Prime Video hikes prices, loses shows, and can't decide what seasons and episodes they want to include. Not to mention the ads. I cannot rely on them having what I want in the future and even if they have something today, it'll probably be gone tomorrow.
I totally understand the insane expense with AI features. Which is why I think Logos should avoid it entirely. In fact, I helped provide feedback on a developing platform that seeks to use AI to aid preachers and teachers within a Christian context, and after weeks of helping, my conclusion was that their platform was ultimately unneeded because Logos already provides all the needed tools, with more accuracy and more information, without the numerous AI problems and expenses.
If Logos does go with AI integration, it would be best for that to be a totally separate feature subscription. I have no problems with that, knowing the backend expenses and complexity and need for constant updating and refining.
My solution would be to continue onwards with the forever access model currently employed, but adding a monthly fee IF a user opts into using the AI features.
Replacing the entire preaching suite features and only going with a subscription model for all the excellent sermon builder and manager tools is incredibly frustrating. They have been great so far, and it'll be annoying to tell others that they have to pay monthly, or worse, never use them at all. The only reason I've got them today is because I could get them in a package.
I'm also afraid that ya'll will hold out on the sermon builder tools for android until you flip to the subscription model, leaving us high and dry while Apple users will continue to get forever access. While Android access to the sermon tools should have been there from the beginning, locking it behind a subscription paywall, while iPhone/iPad users continue to enjoy it perpetually would only add insult to injury.
Overall, I don't see the need for AI at all, but using it as a shield to justify moving completely into subscription models is not the way to earn my goodwill, or my continued business.0 -
I just signed up for Logos pro and did a search on the new search screen. It turned up hundreds of articles ALL LOCKED! Thats not what I want to see. I want results I can access and none I can't access unless I ask for them. Please correct this issue Thank you
John
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John,
I don't have Logos Pro, but from what I understand, this happens because you have done a search on ALL books. This includes thousands and thousands of books that you do not own. I think you need to restrict the search to MY books to solve this problem. From what I have heard, this is an issue that should be corrected in Logos. Users should have to take the extra step to search materials that they do not own, not the other way around.
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I just signed up for Logos pro and did a search on the new search screen. It turned up hundreds of articles ALL LOCKED! Thats not what I want to see. I want results I can access and none I can't access unless I ask for them. Please correct this issue Thank you
John
You can find out more about the different search modes here:
Above all these things, walk in love, which is the bond of perfection. - Colossians 3:14
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Thank you brother for those thoughts. I share the same thoughts and concerns. I did sign up for subscription to get the free month to see how it is. So far I still have great concerns the same ones you shared. Thank you for your thoughts.
John
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From what I have heard, this is an issue that should be corrected in Logos.
I haven't heard this - I think it is operating as intended.
Users should have to take the extra step to search materials that they do not own, not the other way around.
I don't understand this. We, as users, choose the type of search we execute - so an All search will search the catalog while a Books Search will search books we own.
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I don't understand this. We, as users, choose the type of search we execute - so an All search will search the catalog while a Books Search will search books we own.
I mentioned taking "the extra step." What I mean by this is, what is the default? And what requires an additional click? In my opinion, the default should be to search only through a user's library. And If you want to see beyond your library, you can click to include all resources from the Logos catalog. Many users have expressed confusion over why their default search shows a majority of books that they do not own. I understand this confusion. This is why my opinion is that this is an issue that should be corrected. Because, the current setup results in confusion for many users. Most users want to know what's in their library, not what's in the Logos catalog.
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I also find "books" to be a confusing heading. I would want to search my entire library, not just my books. What about journals and magazines? Based on the heading, I have no idea if they are included or not. Never before has an "all" search included a massive amount of resources that a user does not own. In my opinion, the setup now is confusing, less than optimal.
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I don't understand this. We, as users, choose the type of search we execute - so an All search will search the catalog while a Books Search will search books we own.
I mentioned taking "the extra step." What I mean by this is, what is the default? And what requires an additional click? In my opinion, the default should be to search only through a user's library. And If you want to see beyond your library, you can click to include all resources from the Logos catalog. Many users have expressed confusion over why their default search shows a majority of books that they do not own. I understand this confusion. This is why my opinion is that this is an issue that should be corrected. Because, the current setup results in confusion for many users. Most users want to know what's in their library, not what's in the Logos catalog.
Hi Aaron
I’m guessing that the “extra step(s)” refers to having to click the summarize button next to a resource (locked or unlocked) in order to see what it offers. I found that annoying but understandable. Each search is unique and as such identifies a different portion of each resource to be summarized (that is, if the summary is targeted). Each such summary would cost additional CPU usage credits - and if that were done for the “All” selection, it would quickly exhaust the usage limit for a given user. Similarly true for the “Books” choice - those with large libraries and a nonspecific search would use CPU credits too fast, if all hits automatically showed summaries.
OTOH, if the “extra step” refers to the need to select “Books” instead of “All”, I agree 100% that it is either a bug, or an annoying marketing gimmick. The “All” searches result in a ridiculous number of hits - not at all what AI is supposed to do. So, I hope for the sake of those who do subscribe, that the default is set to “Books”, not “All”.
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Redeeming the time (Eph.5:16+Col.4:5) ... Win 10, iOS & iPadOS 16
Jim Dean0 -
if the “extra step” refers to the need to select “Books” instead of “All”, I agree 100% that it is either a bug, or an annoying marketing gimmick.
This is indeed what I was referring to. Thank you for your insight, though. Makes sense.
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I do not know if this is true for other users, but I find that my search usage defaults to the last type of search that I used in Logos, just as it always has. I do find (for me anyway) that having more choices in search is a benefit as opposed to a deficit.
Above all these things, walk in love, which is the bond of perfection. - Colossians 3:14
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Sam,
I expect this is true. Because it remembers the last type of search, I suppose the "issue" would for the most part only occur the first time one does a search.
My preference would be to have a category called "My Library," which would function as the default the first time a user opens a search with Logos Pro. This title would provide a clear differentiation from "All," which includes all books in the Logos catalog. I'm not trying to disparage anything. Just expressing my thoughts as someone who has heard about but not yet used Logos Pro. So take them for what they're worth... likely not all that much [;)]
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I also find "books" to be a confusing heading. I would want to search my entire library, not just my books. What about journals and magazines? Based on the heading, I have no idea if they are included or not
The term "Books" is a fairly recent change. It used be "Resources." I don't like "books" either. Even though it include my journals and magazines, the term could be misleading.
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When many of us are talking about our concern of being "forced" into a subscription to maintain access, it is because Mark has contradicted his statement that we will keep our features, or at best left out the need to keep an outdated engine running to accomplish this, possibly in a VM depending on the situation.
Mark made it clear in the response to my question that I have posted the quote several times. that improved Features would be behind the subscription or for purchase IF offered. You are the first from Faithlife to even attempt to address these concerns in the weeks since, in spite of my multiple requests for customer contact and others from Faithlife responding in the same or other threads.
So, if features are improved and locked behind a paywall, our only option is to subscribe to continue with an updated engine with OS compatability and bug fixes, or if we want to keep the now updated feature active without paying we lose the bug fixes....
I think your last statement here may be based on a false assumption. I don't know what will happen in the future, but let's consider a (hypothetical, speculative) historical example of what might have happened if Logos 10 had only been available via subscription.
Two new features in Logos 10 were Advanced Timeline and Print Library. These were (like all past upgrades) available with a perpetual license. If Logos 10 had been sold with new features as subscription-only, then a subscription would have been required to access those new features. If a customer didn't subscribe, they would have been able to install the Logos 10 (now Logos 33) engine but those features wouldn't have been available. The regular Timeline would not have been locked (just because they didn't buy Advanced Timeline) and the regular Library would continue to work as before, just without Print Library features. This is exactly the same as a Logos 9 user installing the Logos 33 engine without buying a Logos 10 Feature Set.
In this example, I don't think anyone is "forced" into subscription any more than Logos 9 customers are "forced" to buy a base package upgrade or Logos 10 Feature Set. All the Logos 9 books and features still keep working the way they did in the past, now on the new engine (which includes free under-the-hood improvements to run on Apple Silicon, use the latest .NET, support Windows 11, add Dark Mode support to more features, etc., etc.)
(Now, will some of those Logos 9 features eventually be deprecated? Almost certainly yes, the way Handouts from Logos 4 were removed in Logos 27. But they weren't taken away in the very next release for non-paying customers. This deprecation and/or obsolescence happens many many years later, after we see which features are resonating with users and which aren't getting used but are cluttering up the software, making it harder to use and more costly to maintain.)
This is what I understand Mark to be saying when he says improved features may only be available via subscription. I haven't seen any statement that "[your] only option is to subscribe to continue with an updated engine". In fact, I'm fairly certain he has said that the updated engine will continue to be freely available.
(Now, could some existing features be deprecated and replaced with subscription-only features? I mean, theoretically, yes. For example, it would be technically possible for us to completely remove Logos 9 search (offline searching with a local index) and announce that searching is now only available as Smart Search via subscription and online-only. Would this be a good business move? No, I think it would result in massive user backlash and make Logos less competitive with Kindle as an ebook platform. Is it possible? Yes. Is it likely? IMO, no; I would ask you to look at our 30-year history of trying to do the right thing for the customer, engaging in dialogue with our customer base, being open and upfront about our plans, announcing products here in the forums and then killing them based on customer feedback--you know which one I'm talking about 😀--and so on. Finally, one gentle reminder that none of this is set in stone. We haven't announced any pricing, feature sets, or subscription vs perpetual license plans for later this year. The team is still working through the various options and taking all this customer feedback into account. Thanks for your continuing dialogue in this thread.)
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Sam,
I expect this is true. Because it remembers the last type of search, I suppose the "issue" would for the most part only occur the first time one does a search.
My preference would be to have a category called "My Library," which would function as the default the first time a user opens a search with Logos Pro. This title would provide a clear differentiation from "All," which includes all books in the Logos catalog. I'm not trying to disparage anything. Just expressing my thoughts as someone who has heard about but not yet used Logos Pro. So take them for what they're worth... likely not all that much
While the “All” search of the full Logos catalog has helped me in identifying books that I can add to my library where my library may be weak, I can see where this could be an issue for some.
One thing I have found is that I am using the search function more often than I did in the past. While I can’t point to specific examples (stopping to document them slows down the study process), I find the search function easier, faster, and more specific to use.
Above all these things, walk in love, which is the bond of perfection. - Colossians 3:14
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When many of us are talking about our concern of being "forced" into a subscription to maintain access, it is because Mark has contradicted his statement that we will keep our features, or at best left out the need to keep an outdated engine running to accomplish this, possibly in a VM depending on the situation.
Mark made it clear in the response to my question that I have posted the quote several times. that improved Features would be behind the subscription or for purchase IF offered. You are the first from Faithlife to even attempt to address these concerns in the weeks since, in spite of my multiple requests for customer contact and others from Faithlife responding in the same or other threads.
So, if features are improved and locked behind a paywall, our only option is to subscribe to continue with an updated engine with OS compatability and bug fixes, or if we want to keep the now updated feature active without paying we lose the bug fixes....
I think your last statement here may be based on a false assumption. I don't know what will happen in the future, but let's consider a (hypothetical, speculative) historical example of what might have happened if Logos 10 had only been available via subscription.
Two new features in Logos 10 were Advanced Timeline and Print Library. These were (like all past upgrades) available with a perpetual license. If Logos 10 had been sold with new features as subscription-only, then a subscription would have been required to access those new features. If a customer didn't subscribe, they would have been able to install the Logos 10 (now Logos 33) engine but those features wouldn't have been available. The regular Timeline would not have been locked (just because they didn't buy Advanced Timeline) and the regular Library would continue to work as before, just without Print Library features. This is exactly the same as a Logos 9 user installing the Logos 33 engine without buying a Logos 10 Feature Set.
In this example, I don't think anyone is "forced" into subscription any more than Logos 9 customers are "forced" to buy a base package upgrade or Logos 10 Feature Set. All the Logos 9 books and features still keep working the way they did in the past, now on the new engine (which includes free under-the-hood improvements to run on Apple Silicon, use the latest .NET, support Windows 11, add Dark Mode support to more features, etc., etc.)
(Now, will some of those Logos 9 features eventually be deprecated? Almost certainly yes, the way Handouts from Logos 4 were removed in Logos 27. But they weren't taken away in the very next release for non-paying customers. This deprecation and/or obsolescence happens many many years later, after we see which features are resonating with users and which aren't getting used but are cluttering up the software, making it harder to use and more costly to maintain.)
This is what I understand Mark to be saying when he says improved features may only be available via subscription. I haven't seen any statement that "[your] only option is to subscribe to continue with an updated engine". In fact, I'm fairly certain he has said that the updated engine will continue to be freely available.
(Now, could some existing features be deprecated and replaced with subscription-only features? I mean, theoretically, yes. For example, it would be technically possible for us to completely remove Logos 9 search (offline searching with a local index) and announce that searching is now only available as Smart Search via subscription and online-only. Would this be a good business move? No, I think it would result in massive user backlash and make Logos less competitive with Kindle as an ebook platform. Is it possible? Yes. Is it likely? IMO, no; I would ask you to look at our 30-year history of trying to do the right thing for the customer, engaging in dialogue with our customer base, being open and upfront about our plans, announcing products here in the forums and then killing them based on customer feedback--you know which one I'm talking about 😀--and so on. Finally, one gentle reminder that none of this is set in stone. We haven't announced any pricing, feature sets, or subscription vs perpetual license plans for later this year. The team is still working through the various options and taking all this customer feedback into account. Thanks for your continuing dialogue in this thread.)
I appreciate the response again! I do understand your points, but a couple of the examples are not pertinent to the concern. Advanced Timeline and Print Library are/were New Features as you said, I am talking about Features I already own. If it were just new Features, I'd be disappointed, but chalk it up as Logos not wanting my business if they stick with subscription only.
While deprecating Features has been a historical frustration for many as can be seen throughout the lost features posts dating back to the move to L4. It's a smaller part of the concern, well, depending on what were to be deprecated...
My direct question here:
If we already paid for a feature and it gets improvements - will the updated feature only be available to those who subscribe? If so, doesn't that punish early adopters as you mentioned???
If we update an L8 feature (for example), those improvements are likely to be available only to people who subscribe (or who purchase an upgrade, if we offer that), especially if those improvements significantly enhance the feature. There will be exceptions to that, but that will be the general rule. I don't think that harms early adopters who will have had at least four years of great value out of the feature, and may well have many more.
I think it would punish early adopters if we sold a new feature, and then six or twelve weeks later offered a better version.
As you can see I directly asked about owned features that just received an improvement, not new features, an improved feature. Mark mentioned L8 features as an example but did state an "improved" feature would likely only be available via subscription (or purchase IF offered)....
That's where the concern is based.... He has not had the courtesy to clarify that statement nor has he or any other member of management had the courtesy to contact me despite requesting so with customer service, so I can better question and understand that statement. The forums do not always allow the best communication option, but my request has still gone ignored.....
This one statement opens the path to the concerns that many of us have and the examples of potentially being stuck on outdated engines or having to subscribe to maintain access to those improved features we had owned.
I do understand your mentioning the past 30 years, but you my friend are one of the only evidences of the golden days with this company..... I wish I could rely on those days, but things seem quite different....
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 15 & Android 14
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I appreciate the response again! I do understand your points, but a couple of the examples are not pertinent to the concern. Advanced Timeline and Print Library are/were New Features as you said, I am talking about Features I already own.
I was using both as example of enhancing an existing feature in a significant way. (Advanced Timeline takes the data set behind Timeline but gives a new one to visualize it. Print Library makes Library, Search, etc. "updated" and "improved".)
If we update an L8 feature (for example), those improvements are likely to be available only to people who subscribe (or who purchase an upgrade, if we offer that), especially if those improvements significantly enhance the feature. There will be exceptions to that, but that will be the general rule. I don't think that harms early adopters who will have had at least four years of great value out of the feature, and may well have many more.
...
As you can see I directly asked about owned features that just received an improvement, not new features, an improved feature. Mark mentioned L8 features as an example but did state an "improved" feature would likely only be available via subscription (or purchase IF offered)....
I'm not Mark, but I think he had "Timeline vs Advanced Timeline" in mind, not (for example) "adding a Find box to Favorites" (which was a free feature improvement in Logos 10 IIRC, I could be wrong on that).
As a general rule of thumb, I would say:
- if a feature improvement cost money (via a perpetual license to a Feature Set) when going from Logos 9 to Logos 10 (or any previous combination of versions), then "the general rule" would be that that kind of improvement would also cost money (a subscription fee) in a subscription future
- if a feature improvement was given away for free (in the free engine) when going from Logos 9 to Logos 33, then "the general rule" would be that that kind of improvement would be included free in the engine in a subscription future
- "There will be exceptions to that [general rule]"
- Building and improving features on an ongoing basis without a subscription revenue stream is difficult: https://community.logos.com/forums/p/221543/1289214.aspx#1289214
- Those statements were made a month ago, and it's likely that Mark's thinking has evolved and changed since then, and will continue to do so throughout the rest of the year
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Bradley wrote: "I will admit that the Logos engine is harder to install in a fully offline scenario. What I would strongly recommend for anyone who wants to keep a particular version of Logos running "forever" is to install it now, online, in a VM and back up that entire VM including the OS. You can then keep running it offline (with the current set of features and books) indefinitely, as long as there's a company (or community) supporting running the underlying OS under virtualization on the hardware of the future. (For obvious reasons, I'd recommend virtualizing the Windows version, not macOS. Wine on Linux might also be an option for long-term support, but I suspect it still needs a little more maturity.)"
I am running version 33.0.363 with the Pro subscription active. I am using MacOS on a MacBook. Can I create a VM environment and install the present Logos version? Would I be able to use an older version of MacOS such as Monterey (which supports the present Logos) as the VM OS? Oce I have this setup how would I go about adding new resources to the VM without Logos servers seeking to update the installed version of Logos?
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I appreciate the response again! I do understand your points, but a couple of the examples are not pertinent to the concern. Advanced Timeline and Print Library are/were New Features as you said, I am talking about Features I already own.
I was using both as example of enhancing an existing feature in a significant way. (Advanced Timeline takes the data set behind Timeline but gives a new one to visualize it. Print Library makes Library, Search, etc. "updated" and "improved".)
If we update an L8 feature (for example), those improvements are likely to be available only to people who subscribe (or who purchase an upgrade, if we offer that), especially if those improvements significantly enhance the feature. There will be exceptions to that, but that will be the general rule. I don't think that harms early adopters who will have had at least four years of great value out of the feature, and may well have many more.
...
As you can see I directly asked about owned features that just received an improvement, not new features, an improved feature. Mark mentioned L8 features as an example but did state an "improved" feature would likely only be available via subscription (or purchase IF offered)....
I'm not Mark, but I think he had "Timeline vs Advanced Timeline" in mind, not (for example) "adding a Find box to Favorites" (which was a free feature improvement in Logos 10 IIRC, I could be wrong on that).
As a general rule of thumb, I would say:
- if a feature improvement cost money (via a perpetual license to a Feature Set) when going from Logos 9 to Logos 10 (or any previous combination of versions), then "the general rule" would be that that kind of improvement would also cost money (a subscription fee) in a subscription future
- if a feature improvement was given away for free (in the free engine) when going from Logos 9 to Logos 33, then "the general rule" would be that that kind of improvement would be included free in the engine in a subscription future
- "There will be exceptions to that [general rule]"
- Building and improving features on an ongoing basis without a subscription revenue stream is difficult: https://community.logos.com/forums/p/221543/1289214.aspx#1289214
- Those statements were made a month ago, and it's likely that Mark's thinking has evolved and changed since then, and will continue to do so throughout the rest of the year
I again thank you for your input and trying to elaborate on the vague and possibly unclear statements from Mark. I hope it is closer to what you are saying.
BTW, I did receive the licenses email - now I need to see if I still have the Libronix installer and modules on a backup drive somewhere to test it out again. Thanks!
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 15 & Android 14
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