Official: You Can Now Get Early Access to the Next Version of Logos
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Thanks for your response.
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Another question I would ask is, should there be a two week, or month-long free trial to Logos Pro? Again, I'm skeptical that I would ever go with a subscription model, barring the return of the personal book builder and mobile app access that I previously mentioned, but a free trial would at least give Logos a chance to try and convince me through the new features offered.
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Subscriptions make me feel dirty, so I will unlikely subscribe for long unless there is a similar fallback license to the Jetbrains model. (https://sales.jetbrains.com/hc/en-gb/articles/207240845-What-is-a-perpetual-fallback-license).
That's an interesting model. That's for the info. (I used to subscribe to Jetbrains, but I'd forgotten all about this license.)
Probably worth mentioning they recently released an integrated AI Assistant service, this requires a subscription independent of the one mentioned above. https://www.jetbrains.com/ai/
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I'm sorry, Mark, I don't get the logic. Could you please elaborate? What is it that you cannot accomplish without including books in the package? Well, we know that the more books you add, the more the pricing. You can bring the price down by eliminating all the books in the package.
I don't need to be paying a monthly rental for resources I already own. This is pure double-dipping into my pocket.
One of the advantages of subscription is that new users can have lower upfront costs and try Logos with much less commitment. But it's very hard to say to a new user – "Hey, you can try Logos for a month or two, but only if you spend $500 on a library, because the features are fairly useless without any books". So we wanted to include enough books in Logos Pro in order to make sure that someone testing it out – without a library – would get a good experience.
Now, none of that applies to you. You're not a new user. You already have a good-sized library, I presume.
Mark: This is pure socialism. The people who own resources, the "rich" ones, get to pay the same amount as the "poor" ones who don't own the resources. That's the objective of packaging books along with the features. It was so easy to see for a financial economist. I just wanted to get it out from you officially.
We already have our government doing socialism. You'd probably agree that I don't think we need organizations doing socialism.
I want to give my money to charities that I value, like a private Christian school that educates poor kids for free thus breaking the cycle of poverty. I am not interested in subsidizing "poor" Logos customers.
I hope feature sets are available for subscription or outright purchase without being attached to a bunch of resources (if you want to do a combo deal, please offer dynamic pricing.)
Your logic is flawed on this. If a wealthy person goes to the store and buys $3/lb product and a poorer person goes to the same store and buys the same $3/lb product, is that socialism? FL is offering those who own all the books $9.99 to have new feature sets while someone who has none of the books pays the same price for feature sets and books. How is that giving those with more books an advantage? Looks like the the person who has less books is getting more.
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I know the other subscription tiers haven't been announced/determined, but I hope there is one aimed at people with academic interests. I would have little use for many of the new Pro features, but I might be interested in an AI tool optimized to do textual criticism or Greco Roman or Akkadian intertextuality and stuff like that.
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Mark,
One question I would have is which perks us connect users will be losing. Will we lose the 2% cash back, course access, Faithlife TV, and three free classics each month?
If this is the case, I would implore Logos to please implement a plan where we can still access courses monthly. This, rather than the feature sets and added books, are a main reason for subscribing for many I would presume.
Please take this into consideration.0 -
Mark,
One question I would have is which perks us connect users will be losing. Will we lose the 2% cash back, course access, Faithlife TV, and three free classics each month?
If this is the case, I would implore Logos to please implement a plan where we can still access courses monthly. This, rather than the feature sets and added books, are a main reason for subscribing for many I would presume.
Please take this into consideration.0 -
I own Logos 10 Full Features and base packages. Would it be better for me yo cancel FL Connect No Library and just go ahead and subscribe to Logos Pro? Other than the free 3 ebooks, 25% off a Lexham Press purchase and 2% cash back, what else would I lose or gain?
In this specific case, I think you're OK with canceling and getting Pro if that's what you'd like to do. You will lose all the perks you mentioned, plus any more perks that you didn't mention. Are Mobile Ed courses part of Connect No Library? I think they may be. If so, you'd lose those, too.
For others with similar questions, I'm only giving this answer because DAL says
- they already own the Logos 10 Full Feature Set, so they won't lose any features
- they have the "No Library" version of Connect, so they won't lose any books
- they understand they'll lose the perks, and they're OK with that
In all other circumstances, we recommend sticking with Connect until we announce a migration plan.
Since I renewed in February, it is better for me to wait? I thought if we held out, there would be special discounts
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We’re still thinking through what that means for purchasable feature sets, and we’d value your feedback on whether the option to purchase would be important to you, knowing that you’d miss out on all the AI and cloud-backed features along with regular updates.
In an age of endless subscriptions, I would be careful as subscription fatigue is becoming real. Pastors and loyal Logos members will gladly pay, but I and others who may be content buying Logos Fundamentals, Starter, or Bronze may not sign up for a subscription. Furthermore, it may deter some people. I have switched software before once it became a subscription-only service as I avoid subscriptions whenever possible. Making at least present features and layman future features available as perpetual licenses can generate extra money from people like me, and can allow those who want to avoid the high one-time fee to subscribe. It is a win-win deal where Logos makes money either way. I will stick with Logos as I already own all the features I care for so other than switching to dark mode without a restart, I'll be okay.
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We’re still thinking through what that means for purchasable feature sets, and we’d value your feedback on whether the option to purchase would be important to you, knowing that you’d miss out on all the AI and cloud-backed features along with regular updates.
In an age of endless subscriptions, I would be careful as subscription fatigue is becoming real. Pastors and loyal Logos members will gladly pay, but I and others who may be content buying Logos Fundamentals, Starter, or Bronze may not sign up for a subscription. Furthermore, it may deter some people. I have switched software before once it became a subscription-only service as I avoid subscriptions whenever possible. Making at least present features and layman future features available as perpetual licenses can generate extra money from people like me, and can allow those who want to avoid the high one-time fee to subscribe. It is a win-win deal where Logos makes money either way. I will stick with Logos as I already own all the features I care for so other than switching to dark mode without a restart, I'll be okay.
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We’re still thinking through what that means for purchasable feature sets, and we’d value your feedback on whether the option to purchase would be important to you, knowing that you’d miss out on all the AI and cloud-backed features along with regular updates.
In an age of endless subscriptions, I would be careful as subscription fatigue is becoming real. Pastors and loyal Logos members will gladly pay, but I and others who may be content buying Logos Fundamentals, Starter, or Bronze may not sign up for a subscription. Furthermore, it may deter some people. I have switched software before once it became a subscription-only service as I avoid subscriptions whenever possible. Making at least present features and layman future features available as perpetual licenses can generate extra money from people like me, and can allow those who want to avoid the high one-time fee to subscribe. It is a win-win deal where Logos makes money either way. I will stick with Logos as I already own all the features I care for so other than switching to dark mode without a restart, I'll be okay.
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At the current price the AI features simply aren't smart enough for me to buy in. The Smart search has been consistently worse in finding results compared to precise search. I have no interest in the summarize feature - it's my job to read, not the computer. This could change if these features were more refined.
I understand the need for a subscription for services like AI, but I have no intention of ever subscribing for other features. My current set up has everything I need and I am much more willing to put up with 'outdated' features down the road than putting up with a subscription. At the end of the day my work as a preacher is to read and write and Logos 10 already does far more than that.
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I know the other subscription tiers haven't been announced/determined, but I hope there is one aimed at people with academic interests. I would have little use for many of the new Pro features, but I might be interested in an AI tool optimized to do textual criticism or Greco Roman or Akkadian intertextuality and stuff like that.
I can certainly agree. But I also try to be realistic. Outside of Perseus (sp?), Logos is largely a 2nd or 3rd year Bible school tool (plus preaching). If there's more greek resources, it's grammars ... if more hebrew, grammars. I don't know what's up, in aramaic. Not even that? Any FL expertise left?
I kind of meh'd when Bob's brother intro'd Perseus. Now, I feel lucky! And indeed, maybe AI would work for textual criticism, though Accordance has more mss coverage (though still limited). I'd bet an AI subscription from New Orleans (CNTTS) would be the better subscription.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Logos power user since 2008. LogosNow/Faithlife Connect subscriber. New to this news & discussion just this morning. After perusing this forum thread for ten minutes, I want to make sure I have a basic understanding of what Logos will look like going forward....
1. No longer will there be a new version of Logos every two years or so to purchase or upgrade to.
2. The Logos engine will be a constantly improving/upgrading product - funded through subscriptions.
3. There won't be an option to purchase the new Logos engine & features. Subscription is the future.
4. No one will lose access to the books and features they have already purchased.
5. Future purchases of books will continue, as well as coming subscription models that include many books.
Am I on the right track here? Just trying to evaluate everything. Not saying that I am opposed to the is model.
It's a bit more nuanced than that.
We're announcing that we're leaning heavily into subscription this fall for the five reasons I gave, particularly the ability to release features early and often and because subscriptions enable AI and similar features.
We're listening to users to help us understand whether the ability to purchase a feature set is worthwhile to them if they knew it wouldn't include regular updates or AI features.
So subscription is the future, but maybe there's still a lesser role for the perpetual license.
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Another question I would ask is, should there be a two week, or month-long free trial to Logos Pro? Again, I'm skeptical that I would ever go with a subscription model, barring the return of the personal book builder and mobile app access that I previously mentioned, but a free trial would at least give Logos a chance to try and convince me through the new features offered.
Thanks for the feedback. That's something we may offer in the future.
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Rather than delivering five new but fairly small features over a 30-week period, we might invest in (let's say) one substantial new feature and several small but significant improvements to existing features. In other words, this time our promise to you is about quality, not quantity.
This can sometimes be a good intention that the reality of marketing needs to sell new versions to keep the lights on can conflict with but let me lend my full support to this direction. I'd much rather have less new features if the ones I do have are best in class and truly useful. Atlas is a great example of this along with the timeline (can't easily see Bible books in context of history, which is a fail for me). I need more help finding value in my library. That's where the real effort needs to go in the future.
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Rather than delivering five new but fairly small features over a 30-week period, we might invest in (let's say) one substantial new feature and several small but significant improvements to existing features. In other words, this time our promise to you is about quality, not quantity.
This can sometimes be a good intention that the reality of marketing needs to sell new versions to keep the lights on can conflict with but let me lend my full support to this direction. I'd much rather have less new features if the ones I do have are best in class and truly useful. Atlas is a great example of this along with the timeline (can't easily see Bible books in context of history, which is a fail for me). I need more help finding value in my library. That's where the real effort needs to go in the future.
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We’re still thinking through what that means for purchasable feature sets, and we’d value your feedback on whether the option to purchase would be important to you, knowing that you’d miss out on all the AI and cloud-backed features along with regular updates.
This has been a repeated discussion between faithlife and customers. I think it is fair to say a lot of us want to continue to operate the ownership model. I've been a connect subscriber from the Logos Now days. I feel its vital to keep both options open. Especially because of the way ministry is funded. I've been able to get various grants towards ownership at times which has been wonderful.
I have also never seen a library subscription which goes anywhere close to meeting my needs. I suspect other users with larger libraries will feel the same. Perhaps if you did a full catalogue subscription like netflix but for books?
גַּם־חֹשֶׁךְ֮ לֹֽא־יַחְשִׁ֪יךְ מִ֫מֶּ֥ךָ וְ֭לַיְלָה כַּיּ֣וֹם יָאִ֑יר כַּ֝חֲשֵׁיכָ֗ה כָּאוֹרָֽה
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It's a bit more nuanced than that.
We're announcing that we're leaning heavily into subscription this fall for the five reasons I gave, particularly the ability to release features early and often and because subscriptions enable AI and similar features.
We're listening to users to help us understand whether the ability to purchase a feature set is worthwhile to them if they knew it wouldn't include regular updates or AI features.
So subscription is the future, but maybe there's still a lesser role for the perpetual license.
And this is why there is so much concern about this major change in business model..... One post will say those who don't subscribe will receive updates, one mentions the six week releases to keep up with OS updates and then this little grenade is dropped..... So what is the TRUTH about updates for those who choose to not subscribe - this statement makes it sound as though they will be left in the dark....
Those of us who have been around for the Libronix era, The original and IMHO still best Sermon File addin, the transition to L4 and each subsequent upgrade - well, we have seen many promises like "the you keep access to resources and features you own whether you upgrade or not" at times be forgotten.
As some who have stated with regards to the current subscription models, a number of things never followed through on.... (I don't subscribe so I can only base it on the comments I have seen posted)There more discussion that happens seems to be pointing towards the promise in this post from Bob in relation to concerns that subscription would take over as no longer being honored - https://community.logos.com/forums/p/103335/715312.aspx#715312
Supporting the existing ownership model indefinitely is not what it sounds like at this time.... (And yes I know that an "escape clause" of not using the word promise was included) - but the consistent mantra has always been we would never lose access to our features and resources - yet it has happened... I still have missing features that I owned in Libronix and the Libronix engine is no longer supported or readily available.... So, understand that some are leery.....
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 15 & Android 14
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I know the other subscription tiers haven't been announced/determined, but I hope there is one aimed at people with academic interests. I would have little use for many of the new Pro features, but I might be interested in an AI tool optimized to do textual criticism or Greco Roman or Akkadian intertextuality and stuff like that.
There will be a tier focused more on academic use. I confess that Akkadian intertextuality isn't yet at the top of our list of possible features for that tier, though...
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So subscription is the future, but maybe there's still a lesser role for the perpetual license.
I agree that subscription is the future in order for companies to stay ahead of the game with innovative features. The AI features in Logos have been well implemented (especially in these early stages) and I am already finding them tremendously useful. I see the benefit of AI in getting the most out of the massive resources that we have access to in Logos.
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There more discussion that happens seems to be pointing towards the promise in this post from Bob in relation to concerns that subscription would take over as no longer being honored - https://community.logos.com/forums/p/103335/715312.aspx#715312
I'm sorry that part of the transparency is saying "we think" and "we plan", not "we promise", but if I was confidently asserting that I could tell you how technology products / business-models / platforms / trends were going to be a few years from now, you'd have other reasons to think poorly of us. :-)
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There more discussion that happens seems to be pointing towards the promise in this post from Bob in relation to concerns that subscription would take over as no longer being honored - https://community.logos.com/forums/p/103335/715312.aspx#715312
I'm sorry that part of the transparency is saying "we think" and "we plan", not "we promise", but if I was confidently asserting that I could tell you how technology products / business-models / platforms / trends were going to be a few years from now, you'd have other reasons to think poorly of us. :-)
I also referenced that "escape clause" in my post. which you misleadingly left out of your post here..... The fact is, that we have always been promised that we would not lose access to resources and features that we purchased.... That has not always been true, see the Sermon File Addin and no the current Sermon features are not the same, nor better IMHO....
So, there is obvious question as to whether Logos will eventually force users into the subscription plan..... Or if they will eventually eliminate the engine and just release an ebook reader, so they can say that customers still have access to their purchased books.... Which would mean more features that were purchased and then removed or no longer supported without upgrade/subscription...... Chalking it up as the features were redone and only available in a new version (Sermon File), so there is a need to subscribe....
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 15 & Android 14
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Making at least present features and layman future features available as perpetual licenses can generate extra money from people like me
This is a great idea!!!
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And this is why there is so much concern about this major change in business model.....
.... So, understand that some are leery.....
Stepping back. They knew there'd have to be a subscription to the AI. They knew they have a whole series of subscriptions. And consolidation was an option. So, they let lose with hints and then clarifying hints. I hate to see Sept's Logos 11 launch ... I assume preachers are going to be in the bull's eye (feature access). More recently, their church management .... subscription?
The other mystery is 'early release'. If something is profitable, why make big-spenders jump thru hoops, to avoid the Logos revenue? I'd assume the answer is Sept ... get used to it ... going to be brutal.
I just think majority ownership has to translate to change.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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So subscription is the future, but maybe there's still a lesser role for the perpetual license.
This is the right play. Logos is thinking long term. Logos is embracing the future. I subscribed last night and am already seeing the vision. AI allows us to much better utilize the vast amount of resources that Logos offers.
I am 100% in support of this. And to think...this is only the beginning of what Logos can do as they embrace the latest tech. I am excited to see where this goes from here!
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Mark, What about those of us who have not yet bought the entire Logos 10, however, have thousands of books, and thousands of dollars invested into our library? Would we not be eligible for the discount because we have not bought the latest version, although we still have spent thousands on the program? Thanks!
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This is the right play. Logos is thinking long term. Logos is embracing the future. I subscribed last night and am already seeing the vision. AI allows us to much better utilize the vast amount of resources that Logos offers.
I am 100% in support of this. And to think...this is only the beginning of what Logos can do as they embrace the latest tech. I am excited to see where this goes from here!
[Y] [Y]
I've been beta testing the AI functions for a while and am still finding new advantages when I use them. They are very helpful and save time as I study and prepare lessons/sermons.
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And this is why there is so much concern about this major change in business model.....
.... So, understand that some are leery.....
Stepping back. They knew there'd have to be a subscription to the AI. They knew they have a whole series of subscriptions. And consolidation was an option. So, they let lose with hints and then clarifying hints. I hate to see Sept's Logos 11 launch ... I assume preachers are going to be in the bull's eye (feature access). More recently, their church management .... subscription?
The other mystery is 'early release'. If something is profitable, why make big-spenders jump thru hoops, to avoid the Logos revenue? I'd assume the answer is Sept ... get used to it ... going to be brutal.
I just think majority ownership has to translate to change.
I hope so....
Though, it's not encouraging when Mark speaks of:
"We're listening to users to help us understand whether the ability to purchase a feature set is worthwhile to them if they knew it wouldn't include regular updates or AI features.
So subscription is the future, but maybe there's still a lesser role for the perpetual license."
Statements like wouldn't include regular updates and lesser role are discouraging for those that have no interest in a subscription.
They also draw me back to the lost features and lost accessibility fiasco of the transition from Libronix to Logos.....
So.... There may be a need to change this page - https://www.logos.com/ways-to-upgrade that states we don't lose anything you owned in a previous Logos Version and that the features are yours to keep forever.... This has always been stated, but has NOT always been practiced. Nor will it be practiced if the Logos engine goes the way of Libronix and owners are forced into subscribing for access to their owned products.... Which hasn't been stated, but..... It may just not be "planned" yet.....
Subscription based models also would not seem to apply to the following statement on the About Faithlife page, as monthly fees likely limits the accessibility for some.
We are committed to increasing biblical literacy and accessibility for every Christian around the world.
This is the vision behind everything we make—from our Bible study platform to church technology and everything in between.
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 15 & Android 14
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if the Logos engine goes the way of Libronix
The Logos engine is already hindering the ability to provide users' desired functionality e.g. notes on footnotes, Bible text in commentaries serving as a Bible, etc. And the technology behind data storage is constantly evolving. If Logos is to survive, at some point that basic engine will have to be rewritten. When and how is not predictable - only that it will.
Subscription based models also would not seem to apply to the follwoing statement on the About Faithlife page, as monthly fees likely limits the accessibility for some.
We are committed to increasing biblical literacy and accessibility for every Christian around the world.
Mark has said nothing about changes to the free program option or even other low-end options. We should not assume that the subscription model applies here. It may or may not.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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