Official: You Can Now Get Early Access to the Next Version of Logos
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Once the OS changes so that the old software won't run, a subscription will be necessary to get Logos working again
This is my biggest concern. As Logos incorporates the latest technology into their program, How are they going to ensure that those of us who do not want a subscription still have access to the resources and features we've purchased?
Edit - Phil - Thanks. I was typing when you replied.
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Is this the gist? Posted on Facebook.
"Lets look at this from another angle. Maybe Logos has come to the conclusion that with the release of L10, they have reached the pinnacle of what a Bible Study Software should be able to do? Maybe they have considered, that is enough? They have been adding and developing this for 30 years. And for those which it is, then it seems it will forever remain a viable and purchasable option like it always has been. But for those where it isnt enough, and for those begging Logos to integrate AI into their software, they will have to pay a subscription fee because AI has ongoing costs. If you are content with L10, and how powerful it already is, then this news should not bother you. Logos says nothing will happen to that. But if you continually want the cutting edge features, as they are released; many if not most which will have to do with AI, then you have to pay the subscription fee.
It kind of seems like a win/win. Those who do not trust AI, and who already love Logos get to keep or purchase their non-AI program, with the promise it will be updated to work with future OS's; while those that want AI can pay the monthly fee. For me personally, Logos10 is already powerful enough to use fine for the rest of my life (and I am only 41.) But for those where it isnt, you will have to contribute and share the ongoing cost of feature development via the subscription model.
Someone mentioned that every single AI inquiry costs money. That is not easy to maintain without a steady stream of cash flow. And as such, if dont pay, you dont play. I'm cool with that. I dont need AI to help me with my study; Logos10 is already like a Christian Super-Laboratory with every tool I need to get the most out of my research. And it is wise of them to have two distinct models, one with non-AI, and the other with AI integration.
Not everybody is a fan of AI, and with this split; it meets the demands of both camps."
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What happens if we have L10 Full Feature, subscribe to Logos Pro, then decide to cancel our subscription. Do we revert back to L10 Full Feature? What is Logos' commitment to supporting L10 going forward?
That's correct. Base package owners and subscribers use the same software applications for desktop, web, and mobile. The only difference is one of licenses and feature gating. Feature (and other) licenses you had temporary access to by virtue of your subscription would be removed, if you stopped subscribing, but all your perpetual licenses (in the L10 feature set) would still be in place.
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That's not possible, Mark, and you know it. Once the OS changes so that the old software won't run, a subscription will be necessary to get Logos working again. The company has no plans (and said so, implicitly- 'bug fixes come with the subscription') to offer the necessary upgrades to the old engine to keep it running on new OS without a subscription. Existing content will be limited to the period of time that Windows or iOS doesn't relegate L10 to the dustbin. That's not an oversight, it is planned obsolescence. Just say so, and drop the implicit 'never' claims.
I have not said, implicitly or otherwise, that "bug fixes come with the subscription." That is not the case.
If you do not subscribe:
- You will still be able to read all the books you own.
- Your existing features will continue to work.*
- You will continue to receive bug fixes and compatibility fixes regularly and for free, just as all our customers have for the last 32 years.
* We're still supporting licenses bought decades ago. But like every software company, we can't guarantee that every feature will work exactly the same forever. As our practice has always been, and as stated on our support page, "very occasionally... we may remove little-used features that no longer provide value to our users." We've done that recently with features such as Faithlife Assistant or Handouts, for example.
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Apparently, many don't understand the concept of 'planned obsolescence.'
No one will be forced to subscribe to Logos to retain access to their existing content. You will always be able to access all the books you’ve purchased without further payment.
That's not possible, Mark, and you know it. Once the OS changes so that the old software won't run, a subscription will be necessary to get Logos working again. The company has no plans (and said so, implicitly- 'bug fixes come with the subscription') to offer the necessary upgrades to the old engine to keep it running on new OS without a subscription. Existing content will be limited to the period of time that Windows or iOS doesn't relegate L10 to the dustbin. That's not an oversight, it is planned obsolescence. Just say so, and drop the implicit 'never' claims.
I'd ask you to trust us based on our 32-year track record. We make the majority of our money selling digital books, and it would be foolish for us to put that at risk. Ensuring that you (a) can access your existing content library and (b) feel confident to continue to build it on our platform (and encourage others to do the same!) is absolutely essential to our continued success as a business. We are fully committed to ensuring that that never changes. Logos desktop, web, and mobile will be continually updated with bug fixes and maintenance support to ensure they work on the latest operating systems and browsers, and you won't need a subscription to continue to access your content libraries or existing licenses.
Thank you Phil.
You bring up a good point about trust and we do owe FL some of that so I thank you for the reminder. It is hard to keep up on this forum (and subscribing to, I am regretting) but I see two issues here.
Like I mentioned earlier, Logos has promised other items in the past but seems to forget them. We've had issues with getting a good Atlas in Logos, there are resources in old packages that people purchased and still aren't finished, there are issues with formatting going on in recent shipments and bad QC, there are questions on some books with missing content (MNTC for one), and things people have been asking for (better images and control) that have fallen on deaf ears. As of now, I'm not going anywhere but I would also ask that Logos take a hard look at remedying past issues before starting new fires.
The other issue I see is, Logos is going full steam ahead with a new program and leaving all the old subscribers behind. I don't understand why this is, but I think it would have been better to bring the older ones up to speed first before selling to new people. Heck, I missed the beta or wasn't invited (maybe my fault?) and I've been doing FL connect for years and liked it but all I am seeing is "don't cancel and wait". If I am trying to sell Logos to newer converts, I don't know what the new tools are to do so. I am sure this is complicated but I think you should focus on pushing up the base first.
Thank you to both Mark and you for answering our questions... this forum is busy!
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Phil and Mark,
Thanks for your engagement and responding to questions.
I know you are already aware of this, but I think there is a lot of anxiety and concern from a number of people. Many of us have invested large amounts of time and money into their bible software and we just want to know that we will continue to be able to use it.
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Mark and Phil have said several times in this thread that those of us who have spent thousands on Logos over many years will continue to be able to use our existing libraries and features.
Instead of speculating and mistrusting Logos, let's heed such Words as 2 Tim 2:23:
"But avoid foolish and uninformed controversies, because you* know that they produce quarrels"
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they will have to pay a subscription fee because AI has ongoing costs
AI is a helpful example of why we need to evolve our monetization and licensing model, but it's not the only reason.
There are many other features that have ongoing expenses to build, maintain, and update. The entire web app, which lives on servers that we pay for, falls into this category—though its various features have a wide spectrum of expense. Anything that is cloud-backed in desktop and mobile rather than living locally on your device has ongoing expense to us, and selling a one-time license that never expires but leaves us on the hook to provide ongoing support just isn't a sustainable business model.
That's why we're moving away from it going forward (without abandoning our obligations to our existing customers!). The better we can align the value exchange, the healthier our business will be and the better we can serve our users for decades to come.
There's also one other really important benefit to monetizing our software investment via subscription. Our historic model has led us to prioritize awesome new features over improving the core user experience and ensuring that the essentials are rock solid, because we need to charge for upgrades and people expect to get new features for their money. We've been slowly trying to shift from new feature creation to addressing core issues of usability and performance, but there remains a really difficult tension that subscription solves.
In a subscription world, our top priority is to ensure that your daily use of Logos is amazing—that new users can quickly get compelling value and that existing users continue to find Logos a huge time saver and an absolute delight to use. Subscription forces us to align our development roadmap to your most important needs in a way that our current model just doesn't support as well—as hard as we've tried over the last three releases.
I'll give you one simple example. We typically deliver more than a dozen new datasets with each major release. And while each of these is useful to some of our users, it likely doesn't represent the most pressing needs for our collective user base. What we're doing this release is focusing on unifying and simplifying the vast and rich (yet fragmented and disparate) datasets we've built over the last two decades. This is going to unlock incredible value for new and existing customers alike, but it doesn't really afford us with much of a monetization opportunity. Subscription enables—even requires—this kind of critical work, and we're super excited for what subscription monetization of our software can mean for fulfilling our vision of making Logos the world's most powerful Bible study app that anyone can use and getting it into the hands of hundreds of millions of users globally.
I know change is hard, and I know this raises all sort of questions and uncertainties about the future. But serving you well is our top priority, and we're committed to listening and ensuring that we're better positioned than ever to meet your future needs and exponentially expand our impact to the ends of the earth. Thanks for joining us this far, and please give us the opportunity to continue to earn your trust, support, and business for many years to come.
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We've had issues with getting a good Atlas in Logos, there are resources in old packages that people purchased and still aren't finished, there are issues with formatting going on in recent shipments and bad QC, there are questions on some books with missing content (MNTC for one), and things people have been asking for (better images and control) that have fallen on deaf ears. As of now, I'm not going anywhere but I would also ask that Logos take a hard look at remedying past issues before starting new fires.
This is a really great point, and one that subscription helps us to solve! See my previous reply for how subscription helps to get us out of this trap of selling things that don't yet exist and not solving the most important problems of our user base!
Logos is going full steam ahead with a new program and leaving all the old subscribers behind. I don't understand why this is, but I think it would have been better to bring the older ones up to speed first before selling to new people.
I agree. I'll discuss this with the team and see what we can do.
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Here's my feedback for this announcement.
I'm all subscriptioned out. I don't like this model, and if this is the future of Logos, then I will find other options.
I work with young men in a preacher training program, and one aspect of our training is to buy them a Logos package and learn to use the platform. I'm going to pause Logos for now until I see the business direction. I'm not going to get a young man locked into a subscription that he will need to carry forever.
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As a long time user and someone that actually works in the IT field, the ongoing use of subscription services for applications has become the new revenue generator for software companies. While the new features the subscription service will bring there will be more revenue created.
I have never been a fan of subscription services and prefer to own my software. I have faithfully upgraded my application each time to get further features and new data sets and books. As I am not a Pastor or seminary student but rather a follower of Christ that looks to delve deep in the Word the features being offered are not something that I want.
I would say that as your software evolves that you do not forget that the application users will also want to continue to receive updates and new feature sets without the subscription route. Also if this is internet based what happens to people that lose internet access for any number or reasons. For me I can still study the word without the internet.
I implore you to consider dual software tracks in your business model. It might be more expensive but you will solidify your user base by giving them a choice.
God Bless
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I don't know if this has been asked or not. It's nearly impossible to keep up with all the posts. [:D]
Since a subscription requires the Internet, will Logos run if you are offline? In other words, prior to Logos opening, will it have to connect to Logos' servers and verify my subscription or will I still be able to use those features in Logos that do not require me to be online?
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Here's my feedback for this announcement.
I'm all subscriptioned out. I don't like this model, and if this is the future of Logos, then I will find other options.
I work with young men in a preacher training program, and one aspect of our training is to buy them a Logos package and learn to use the platform. I'm going to pause Logos for now until I see the business direction. I'm not going to get a young man locked into a subscription that he will need to carry forever.
Thank you for your feedback.
Is that out of principle? Or for cost reasons? For example, if a subscription actually ended up being less expensive than keeping up to date with regular upgrades, would you feel the same way?
Or is it more a matter of your fallback position after you stop subscribing?
There will always be free editions of our desktop, web, and mobile apps, and existing base package owners will fall back to the set of license included in their latest feature set.
We're also discussing options where you could purchase a perpetual license to some new features and fall back to those if you stopped subscribing.
I'd love to better understand what aspects of subscription are most concerning to you.
Thanks!
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I don't know if this has been asked or not. It's nearly impossible to keep up with all the posts.
Since a subscription requires the Internet, will Logos run if you are offline? In other words, prior to Logos opening, will it have to connect to Logos' servers and verify my subscription or will I still be able to use those features in Logos that do not require me to be online?
Two separate issues:
- License verification
- Feature usage
Our license-checking system supports offline use, but it will require an internet connect to refresh licenses to make sure your subscription is still active. So you can't go offline indefinitely and use features without continuing to pay for your subscription.
Many subscription features require access to the internet, so you'll need to be online to use them. But some subscription features work offline.
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As a long time user and someone that actually works in the IT field, the ongoing use of subscription services for applications has become the new revenue generator for software companies. While the new features the subscription service will bring there will be more revenue created.
I have never been a fan of subscription services and prefer to own my software. I have faithfully upgraded my application each time to get further features and new data sets and books. As I am not a Pastor or seminary student but rather a follower of Christ that looks to delve deep in the Word the features being offered are not something that I want.
I would say that as your software evolves that you do not forget that the application users will also want to continue to receive updates and new feature sets without the subscription route. Also if this is internet based what happens to people that lose internet access for any number or reasons. For me I can still study the word without the internet.
I implore you to consider dual software tracks in your business model. It might be more expensive but you will solidify your user base by giving them a choice.
God Bless
Welcome to the forums, Larry. Thanks for taking the time to share your perspective.
It's possible that in many cases our free version will be sufficient for those who want to do basic Bible study and don't want to carry an ongoing subscription.
If the market needs a perpetual license to some product between our free edition and our subscriptions, we're not opposed to reconsidering and bringing something back. It seems like many software companies have found a small place for a traditional licensing model alongside subscription, and we'll certainly be listening and considering whether we'll need to do the same.
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I'd love to better understand what aspects of subscription are most concerning to you.
For me, I want to own my software. Monthly fees add up and at some point will be more than my purchase price. Once I purchase something then it's paid for.
I don't believe that Logos is going to go away like other bible software companies, but if it did and all I had was a subscription then I would no longer be able to use Logos. However, since I own it, I will continue to be able to use Logos as long as it continues to run on my computer.
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Subscription Model = Sustainable Business Model
All of us want Logos to be around for decades to come. A subscription model is the best way forward.
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So it's not going to be a Logos 11 Full Feature Upgrade without a subscription?
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I don't know if this has been asked or not. It's nearly impossible to keep up with all the posts.
Since a subscription requires the Internet, will Logos run if you are offline? In other words, prior to Logos opening, will it have to connect to Logos' servers and verify my subscription or will I still be able to use those features in Logos that do not require me to be online?
Two separate issues:
- License verification
- Feature usage
Our license-checking system supports offline use, but it will require an internet connect to refresh licenses to make sure your subscription is still active. So you can't go offline indefinitely and use features without continuing to pay for your subscription.
Many subscription features require access to the internet, so you'll need to be online to use them. But some subscription features work offline.
I frequently find myself in areas with spotty or no internet access. That's helpful. Thanks.
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If the market needs a perpetual license to some product between our free edition and our subscriptions, we're not opposed to reconsidering and bringing something back. It seems like many software companies have found a small place for a traditional licensing model alongside subscription, and we'll certainly be listening and considering whether we'll need to do the same.
Okay, so what I gather from this is that the traditional feature upgrade purchase we've seen every two years has been already decided against and only will come back if enough of us clamour for it, as Mark has hinted.
I have little to no interest in AI tools for study and thus no interest in this subscription as it is at present. Where does that leave me? This reminds me a lot of the shift from Logos Now to FaithLife Connect. Logos Now was great and served my interests, and then you changed it to where the main feature was "See, look at all the videos you can watch now!" which I had no interest in. This new change is another instance of FaithLife chasing after the latest thing and leaving existing users behind.
Really rather than all of this uncertainty, it would have been better to have answers for all of these questions figured out before you announced the change, but that is how you roll. And knowing how you roll, I know that eventually you will do the right thing after you botch the roll out and have to backtrack.
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How many bible software companies have come and gone over the years?
Logos still remains and I applaud them for laying the foundation for the future.
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Thank you for asking.
I'm not sure how to categorize my objection (i.e. principle, cost, etc.) other than what I said - I'm all subscriptioned out. Microsoft 365, Quicken, Todoist, Disney+, Netflix, on and on...now Logos. I reached my tipping point a long time ago and started cancelling all subscription-based services. I'm even more dug in after seeing that my life and workflow are unchanged except for not having bills.
"if a subscription ended up being less expensive..." - I would still not subscribe. I want to buy what I have and then have it. I don't want ongoing payments, and I don't want to feel like I'm trapped or renting something. (This is already a concern I have with electronic resources anyway.) And I would feel guilty setting up a young man on a platform knowing he will be locked into perpetual payments.
Having constant access to new features is not something that appeals to me. I find most of the features to be like most of the books in the base packages - chaff. I LOVE my powerful base platform, and I LOVE having all my notes in one place. I buy the good books I actually want along the way. If I have to pay a little extra to have this, so be it. But if I have to be reminded of it and keep getting dinged month after month for stuff I don't use or care about...that's gonna hurt.
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what I gather from this is that the traditional feature upgrade purchase we've seen every two years has been already decided against and only will come back if enough of us clamour for it, as Mark has hinted.
There will likely be some purchaseable feature set, but it will only contain a smaller subset of what we're building for the next major release due to the licensing and monetization issues we've unpacked above. But we're still considering various options and evaluating pros and cons.
Logos Now was great and served my interests
Then Logos Pro likely will, too. It's very similar in its aim and function to Logos Now.
it would have been better to have answers for all of these questions figured out before you announced the change, but that is how you roll
I know that eventually you will do the right thing after you botch the roll out and have to backtrack.
Doing the former (inviting your feedback before we finalize the details) is how we avoid the latter (botching the rollout and having to change after the fact)!!
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How about including a 2 year subscription in base packages Gold and above? That would force faithful customers into a subscription, but without taking anything away from them. If they upgrade every two years, they'd retain access. If they don't want to upgrade, they can choose between switching to Logos Pro, or losing access to the AI features. On the other hand, it would remove pressure from you to develop heaps of new features every two years, since a good amount of the price for a new Logos package would flow into AI features (server capacity and ongoing development) rather than adding plenty of new features for permanent and offline use.
This is the model Wolfram Mathematica uses and it makes a lot of sense. I had the full features when I was in college and then when I was teaching math, and now that I am pastoring full time and quit upgrading, I fell back to the offline features, which are good enough for me.
Using Logos as a pastor, seminary professor, and Tyndale author
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so to be clear - you are stating unequivocally that if a person remains with Logos 10 full features (that’s what I have) you - Logos - will continue to sustain and maintain that such that as platforms (Windows/Apple) update that Logos 10 will remain fully functional?
if you do, you realize that you will be the first to not abandon a “Legacy” platform.
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so to be clear - you are stating unequivocally that if a person remains with Logos 10 full features (that’s what I have) you - Logos - will continue to sustain and maintain that such that as platforms (Windows/Apple) update that Logos 10 will remain fully functional?
if you do, you realize that you will be the first to not abandon a “Legacy” platform.
Mark said so here.
Using Logos as a pastor, seminary professor, and Tyndale author
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I just recently started building up my library and was excited to be able to slowly build it up over time for a lifetime of usage. I don't need anything super high but i was just going to keep slowly buying feature sets, base packages and legacy libraries allocated about $25 per month for now until I reach a level that's what I need. I've currently just bought Fundamentals and was looking next to a legacy library and the disciple packages over the next few months. While I'm not necessarily against a subscription, I feel unsure what to do in the mean time. I don't know enough yet about whether the $200 or so i was planning to spend between now and fall are gonna be worth it or not. I don't think I'll want to freeze my features and never get new ones but i don't know if i should just wait and not spend any money until I know what subscription I'll need to get and what I'll get with it.
I suggested earlier an option for a 1 time subscription credit based on the value of a user's library on launching the subscriptions so that they could use that to recoup what they paid for owning materials then just be paying for the sub.0 -
Our license-checking system supports offline use, but it will require an internet connect to refresh licenses to make sure your subscription is still active. So you can't go offline indefinitely and use features without continuing to pay for your subscription.
Is this a change from existing behaviour? At the moment, it seems I can work offline for months without an issue of licence verification. This is very valuable to me as it gives me confidence that I can continue to use my investment even if Logos disappears or becomes subscription-only in future. Could you clarify whether non-subscription-customers will require an occasional licence verification in future, please?
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Our license-checking system supports offline use, but it will require an internet connect to refresh licenses to make sure your subscription is still active. So you can't go offline indefinitely and use features without continuing to pay for your subscription.
Is this a change from existing behaviour? At the moment, it seems I can work offline for months without an issue of licence verification. This is very valuable to me as it gives me confidence that I can continue to use my investment even if Logos disappears or becomes subscription-only in future. Could you clarify whether non-subscription-customers will require an occasional licence verification in future, please?
What I described applies only to temporary/subscription licenses, where we need to check to ensure that your license is still in effect.
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Are there training videos yet on the new features in Logos Pro?
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