Official: You Can Now Get Early Access to the Next Version of Logos

So, basically, more money for logos, less value for users. 

I want to own what I pay for. No way will I subscribe so you can beta the feature through me and fund the upgrades via a subscription. 

No thanks. 

I have had a chance to play with the AI features over the past couple of weeks, and they are impressive. I look forward to using them more. I particularly found beneficial the smart search that showed me books I did not own, but now do because they contained information I needed.

Mark, is there a way to unlock those features (or a subset of them) for Faithlife Connect users as a final hurrah to Logos Now/Connect? That way the 'missing out' whilst we wait does not feel so bad?

Apparently, many don't understand the concept of 'planned obsolescence.' 

Mark Barnes (Logos) said:

No one will be forced to subscribe to Logos to retain access to their existing content. You will always be able to access all the books you’ve purchased without further payment.

That's not possible, Mark, and you know it. Once the OS changes so that the old software won't run, a subscription will be necessary to get Logos working again. The company has no plans (and said so, implicitly- 'bug fixes come with the subscription') to offer the necessary upgrades to the old engine to keep it running on new OS without a subscription. Existing content will be limited to the period of time that Windows or iOS doesn't relegate L10 to the dustbin. That's not an oversight, it is planned obsolescence. Just say so, and drop the implicit 'never' claims.

I fought like hail against the LN subscription as I knew where it would lead. Well, here we are.

The subscription model won't be a problem for the younger generation...that's what they know. It's us older folks (we used to be called 'loyal customers' in another era) that will have a problem with this, especially as we end up on fixed incomes. Near the end of the movie '1917,' after Schofield (Mackay) delivers the critical message to Col Mackenzie (Cumberbatch), Mackenzie dismisses the Lance Corporal rudely (in a way so rude I can't quote it here). It feels like Logos is dismissing us Boomers the same way with this scheme. 

I don't have a lot of regrets in my life. There's a few things I'd like to do over, but not too many. Unless something changes this business model for the better, buying into Logos bible software may end up being one of the biggest regrets I have. (First-world problem, I know.)

Is this the gist? Posted on Facebook.

"Lets look at this from another angle. Maybe Logos has come to the conclusion that with the release of L10, they have reached the pinnacle of what a Bible Study Software should be able to do? Maybe they have considered, that is enough? They have been adding and developing this for 30 years. And for those which it is, then it seems it will forever remain a viable and purchasable option like it always has been. But for those where it isnt enough, and for those begging Logos to integrate AI into their software, they will have to pay a subscription fee because AI has ongoing costs. If you are content with L10, and how powerful it already is, then this news should not bother you. Logos says nothing will happen to that. But if you continually want the cutting edge features, as they are released; many if not most which will have to do with AI, then you have to pay the subscription fee.

It kind of seems like a win/win. Those who do not trust AI, and who already love Logos get to keep or purchase their non-AI program, with the promise it will be updated to work with future OS's; while those that want AI can pay the monthly fee. For me personally, Logos10 is already powerful enough to use fine for the rest of my life (and I am only 41.) But for those where it isnt, you will have to contribute and share the ongoing cost of feature development via the subscription model.

Someone mentioned that every single AI inquiry costs money. That is not easy to maintain without a steady stream of cash flow. And as such, if dont pay, you dont play. I'm cool with that. I dont need AI to help me with my study; Logos10 is already like a Christian Super-Laboratory with every tool I need to get the most out of my research. And it is wise of them to have two distinct models, one with non-AI, and the other with AI integration.

Not everybody is a fan of AI, and with this split; it meets the demands of both camps."

Phil and Mark,

Thanks for your engagement and responding to questions. 

I know you are already aware of this, but I think there is a lot of anxiety and concern from a number of people.  Many of us have invested large amounts of time and money into their bible software and we just want to know that we will continue to be able to use it.  

Here's my feedback for this announcement.

I'm all subscriptioned out. I don't like this model, and if this is the future of Logos, then I will find other options.

I work with young men in a preacher training program, and one aspect of our training is to buy them a Logos package and learn to use the platform. I'm going to pause Logos for now until I see the business direction. I'm not going to get a young man locked into a subscription that he will need to carry forever.

I don't know if this has been asked or not.  It's nearly impossible to keep up with all the posts.  [:D]

Since a subscription requires the Internet, will Logos run if you are offline?  In other words, prior to Logos opening, will it have to connect to Logos' servers and verify my subscription or will I still be able to use those features in Logos that do not require me to be online? 

Phil Gons (Logos) said:

I'd love to better understand what aspects of subscription are most concerning to you.

For me, I want to own my software.  Monthly fees add up and at some point will be more than my purchase price.  Once I purchase something then it's paid for.  

I don't believe that Logos is going to go away like other bible software companies, but if it did and all I had was a subscription then I would no longer be able to use Logos.  However, since I own it, I will continue to be able to use Logos as long as it continues to run on my computer.

So it's not going to be a Logos 11 Full Feature Upgrade without a subscription?

Phil Gons (Logos) said:

If the market needs a perpetual license to some product between our free edition and our subscriptions, we're not opposed to reconsidering and bringing something back. It seems like many software companies have found a small place for a traditional licensing model alongside subscription, and we'll certainly be listening and considering whether we'll need to do the same.

Okay, so what I gather from this is that the traditional feature upgrade purchase we've seen every two years has been already decided against and only will come back if enough of us clamour for it, as Mark has hinted.

I have little to no interest in AI tools for study and thus no interest in this subscription as it is at present. Where does that leave me? This reminds me a lot of the shift from Logos Now to FaithLife Connect. Logos Now was great and served my interests, and then you changed it to where the main feature was "See, look at all the videos you can watch now!" which I had no interest in. This new change is another instance of FaithLife chasing after the latest thing and leaving existing users behind.

Really rather than all of this uncertainty, it would have been better to have answers for all of these questions figured out before you announced the change, but that is how you roll. And knowing how you roll, I know that eventually you will do the right thing after you botch the roll out and have to backtrack.

Thank you for asking.

I'm not sure how to categorize my objection (i.e. principle, cost, etc.) other than what I said - I'm all subscriptioned out. Microsoft 365, Quicken, Todoist, Disney+, Netflix, on and on...now Logos. I reached my tipping point a long time ago and started cancelling all subscription-based services. I'm even more dug in after seeing that my life and workflow are unchanged except for not having bills.

"if a subscription ended up being less expensive..." - I would still not subscribe. I want to buy what I have and then have it. I don't want ongoing payments, and I don't want to feel like I'm trapped or renting something. (This is already a concern I have with electronic resources anyway.) And I would feel guilty setting up a young man on a platform knowing he will be locked into perpetual payments.

Having constant access to new features is not something that appeals to me. I find most of the features to be like most of the books in the base packages - chaff. I LOVE my powerful base platform, and I LOVE having all my notes in one place. I buy the good books I actually want along the way. If I have to pay a little extra to have this, so be it. But if I have to be reminded of it and keep getting dinged month after month for stuff I don't use or care about...that's gonna hurt.

Phil Gons (Logos) said:

Our license-checking system supports offline use, but it will require an internet connect to refresh licenses to make sure your subscription is still active. So you can't go offline indefinitely and use features without continuing to pay for your subscription.

Is this a change from existing behaviour? At the moment, it seems I can work offline for months without an issue of licence verification. This is very valuable to me as it gives me confidence that I can continue to use my investment even if Logos disappears or becomes subscription-only in future. Could you clarify whether non-subscription-customers will require an occasional licence verification in future, please?

Are there training videos yet on the new features in Logos Pro?

With the new subscription ONLY based model proposed for Logos11 onwards, I hope just as we have the option to buy Logos Legacy Libraries when new versions of Logos replace past ones, I hope Faithlife will also offer us the option to buy Legacy Feature Sets of older releases of Logos which may not include the expensive AI stuffs that makes Logos want to go on a sole subscription based approach. In a third world country I certainly cannot afford a Logos subscription but I can save up some money and buy Legacy Logos Features Sets if they are offered for purchase.

John Fidel said:

No offense Nathan, but how do you intend to implement AI with the other software company you work for? There are ongoing costs that need to be addressed that really only work with a subscription. Don't get me wrong, you have every right to post as a Logos customer, but on the other software forums you are discussing AI implementation including natural language searching and summarization. If that software company is serious about implementing AI I would think they would have worked out the economics of it and without a subscription, as I understand the cost model, it doesn't work.

No one has to subscribe and nothing is set in stone about some of the conclusions you are arriving at regarding future development of Logos. I get that subscriptions are not for everyone, and hope Logos accommodates those customers, but AI at this time will require a subscription or prepayment due to ongoing costs.

No offense taken.

I won't comment on other Bible software apps here, as this would not be the proper place for me to do so.

My posts here are speaking 100% as a Logos user who owns 14,500+ books in Logos and has spent $23,300+ (almost $23,400) in recordable sales with Logos. That's not counting Libronix, eBible, LLS 2.x, and Wordsearch titles that are now in Logos. The costs would be even higher.

I want Logos to do well, as I have a substantial personal investment as a Logos user.

I'm also not against subscriptions in general.

I used Logos Now when it started as monthly, moved to annual with it, and even endured the price increase. I've also been through the transition to Faithlife Connect, and I stuck on with Faithlife Connect (No Resources) until my dad passed away, and at the time, I needed to reduce subscriptions. I saved up the money, bought a Logos Full Feature Set, and moved back to perpetual purchases of the Logos features.

I also had Wordsearch's Perks membership that transitioned to Logos. I also gave it up during the services reduction even though I got that money back in the form of store credit, simply because at the time, I needed to reduce expenses.

I even dabbled with Logos Cloud at a time and rented a Logos Cloud tier for a few months since at the time, it was cheaper to rent some of those books than to direct-purchase them on Logos, even with a payment plan. I let it expire when I didn't need it anymore.

I currently subscribe to Scribd (now Everand) annually, and so far, I've kept it because it has saved me more than $10/month in book purchases. I wouldn't be opposed to seeing a Christian-based company offer a similar service at a similar price, and I may even move from Scribd to it.

I don't expect the AI features in Logos to be free, and it may not be feasible for Logos to offer the AI and "cloud backed" features as perpetual purchases. I understand the need for a subscription for these.

If Logos wants to offer a subscription option for AI, I'm perfectly fine with Logos doing it. I can decide if the AI subscription provides enough value to me to subscribe or not. If it is, great. If it's not, then I don't have to subscribe to it, but it's still available for those who want it.

If Logos wants to offer subscription versions of Logos similar to Logos Now, Faithlife Connect, Logos Cloud, Scribd/Everand, etc., as options for users who want early-access to Logos features or for Logos users who want to access Logos libraries at a low-commitment, I'm perfectly fine with it as well. Now that I'm back on the perpetual train, I don't see myself getting back on the subscription train, but others may want to be on it.

Here have been my primary concerns about this announcement:

• The product page I went to, as well as the initial announcement, has given the impression that all future feature versions of Logos are going subscription-only. I do have an issue with this. I want the option to direct-purchase at least some new features of Logos. Some that are clearly "cloud backed" or AI that need a subscription to maintain I can see putting behind a subscription. If I am not interested in those features, I don't have to subscribe, but I would want the option to purchase non-AI and non-"cloud backed" features.
• With the dissolution of the Mobile Ed team and the departure of some from the Content Innovation team, I'm having a hard time understanding (with the exception of AI) where the "innovations" are going to come from in a Logos subscription. While I may not have still re-signed up for a Logos subscription, if Logos was producing regular Mobile Ed content that could improve our biblical training, as well as all of the other "innovative" datasets that came out of the Content Innovation team, these are useful regular content additions that make a stronger case for a subscription offering. With these being scaled back, with the exception of AI, there's less of a convincing case for a Logos subscription.
• Taking a look at the current "Logos Pro" subscription, I'm not entirely convinced on it at the moment in its current state as a replacement for a Logos Feature Set or Base Package. I own most of the books in it, and even then, some aren't books I use heavily. While the AI stuff is interesting, I'm not seeing any major features that would be worth this serving as a replacement for a Logos Feature Set. If this is also the "Pro" tier, I'm expecting smaller tiers to offer less. Plus I'm also concerned about potential price increases closer to the launch of "Logos 11". The AI stuff in "Logos Pro" makes for a decent standalone subscription as an option. The rest I'd have a hard time recommending to new or existing users of Logos.
• As others have announced, I am also concerned about Internet/server connectivity as well. I know some features in Logos already require an Internet connection, and generally I'm in an area with decent Internet, but for customers in areas with spotty/unreliable Internet, we need a way to study the Bible that "just works" that's not dependent on a subscription, Internet, or server connection after we've installed everything. Bible study is mission-critical work, and the potential for something to go out when someone needs it the most is concerning. If accessing AI didn't work during a major outage, that's OK. If having issues accessing critical books and searching tools went out during a major outage, that's a major concern.

Hope this helps. Thanks for listening.

I'm not opposed to subscription if the value is there, but locking instant dark/light mode behind a subscription is off-putting considering this was feedback given as soon as Logos 10 launched and we were told it was being worked on and should take about 6 months to implement.  18 months later and now we're told it will be a feature only available if you have a subscription.  Dark mode was a big reason for my decision to upgrade and it just leaves a bad taste that such a basic quality of life feature is being gated behind a subscription.  Again, I'm not opposed to subscription for most of the things listed, but this particular feature is irksome as a lay user.

Jan Krohn said:

Using the same bucket for AI and translation credits doesn't seem to make sense... Translation is a feature that was paid once with the L10 feature sets, and AI tools are a monthly subscription.

If a user consumes all credits with a large amount of translations, he'd essentially lose the AI subscription for that month. He makes the payment for nothing, as he doesn't receive anything in return. The credits have been used for a feature that he owns anyway.

Good point. Also, initially the credits were for translation only - now that they're AI credits, was the amount increased, or do we have to run increased functions on the same number of credits? Maybe this was addressed already and I missed it.

David Jonescue said:

t may just be me, but I would be content if Logos never adds another Feature. I use it now for mostly purchasing books and study

It's not just you! I'm right with you concerning that!