Money? Gratuity? Income gained from Logos Bible Software? -REALLY, Ya Don't say!

First, I would like to express a Public Apology to Joe, since others seem to think that using his videos as an example was somehow accusatory. How they got this is well beyond me, it must have came from within their ownselves…….Joe, I am Sorry that I used your link as an example.

So, now we have a real ‘bread winner’ see This_Video and some one please tell me that he is not using Logos Bible Software - in a video - and making money for himself? Also, he has embedded video of MP...............at the end of 'his' video(?)

Please. Just one.

Why, can't Justin do the same? Doc's_Formatted surely we are not going to say that one can and the other can not....................

I would really like to read comments on how these two are different..............

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DominicM

I will only comment to say thanks for apologising to Joe, you have gone up in my estimation because of it.

Re the rest I suggest you email bob@logos.com, and he is the one who makes the decisions affecting the company, I suggest you drop him an email privately and see what he says.

Room4more

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/365902#Comment_365902

I will only comment to say thanks for apologising to Joe, you have gone up in my estimation because of it.

Re the rest I suggest you email bob@logos.com, and he is the one who makes the decisions affecting the company, I suggest you drop him an email privately and see what he says.

Thanks.

*******

Personally, I think that if Bob really had an issue then there would have been at least One(1) post from Bob, -OR- at the least from One(1) Logos employee on Justin's thread - there was NONE. Just us......

But it would be intersting to read what Bob has to say concerning this issue, and somehow i think that an email from me to him and then a reply, just wouldn't do it.

Thanks.

Room4more

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/365902#Comment_365902

Sorry for the second, Dominic. But I typed logos bible software on youtube and got a few hundred hits, I watched a few and only a few, very few, offered for self-gain.

Thanks again for the comment.

toughski

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/365913#Comment_365913

Looks like a conversation with self [6]

Room4more

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/365929#Comment_365929

Looks like a conversation with self

you posted so I doubt it's w/oneself.............

Thanks for your, well, comment.

Bill Coley

First, I would like to express a Public Apology to Joe, since others seem to think that using his videos as an example was somehow accusatory. How they got this is well beyond me, it must have came from within their ownselves…….Joe, I am Sorry that I used your link as an example.

I can't think of a more authentic, heartfelt apology than one that's prompted by what "others seem to think;" it reminds me of the gracious regrets expressed by modern politicians who apologize "if" their words/actions offended anyone.

Oh sure, there *are* apologies rooted in personal confession, declarations from the apologetic that acknowledge mistakes made. And occasionally a politician *will* apologize in response to self-awareness of the error of his/her ways, rather than to the compulsion of outside agents. But ultimately, the most satisfying apologies are not those we make because *we* think we were wrong, but because "others seem to think" we were wrong.

Well done.

Room4more

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/365953#Comment_365953

First, I would like to express a Public Apology to Joe, since others seem to think that using his videos as an example was somehow accusatory. How they got this is well beyond me, it must have came from within their ownselves…….Joe, I am Sorry that I used your link as an example.

I can't think of a more authentic, heartfelt apology than one that's prompted by what "others seem to think;" it reminds me of the gracious regrets expressed by modern politicians who apologize "if" their words/actions offended anyone.

Oh sure, there *are* apologies rooted in personal confession, declarations from the apologetic that acknowledge mistakes made. And occasionally a politician *will* apologize in response to self-awareness of the error of his/her ways, rather than to the compulsion of outside agents. But ultimately, the most satisfying apologies are not those we make because *we* think we were wrong, but because "others seem to think" we were wrong.

Well done.

So then you think that I should not have apologized and just stated the obvious? wow, Interesting.

Hhhhmmm what about Justin? Does he not deserve a whopping-mega-on-your-knees Apology from us here? considering the content of the thread.........

Thanks.

[edit: Did you all watch the video link? or are you just posting....?]

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/365955#Comment_365955

Does he not deserve a whopping-mega-on-your-knees Apology from us here?

No, he doesn't. This is a case of not doing enough research - don't assume! John F. is a former Logos employee who has Logos' blessing for his business. While he is not the official training company - that is Morris P. - he, like Mo, does work closely with Logos to insure that his materials are accurate and current. Note also that all that he sells is his own work, not the work of others.

What puzzles me is how to deal with you, fairly and even-handedly. In many of your posts I read you as eager and willing to help others. But in some of your posts your language sounds like a troll itching for a fight. I can't tell if the latter is accidental or intentional which leaves me very confused. For example, in this thread did you really want to know why John was a different case or were your thoughts still on Justin? I also wonder if others have a similar confusion because others have certainly had the opportunity to respond with accurate information but have chosen not to.

Room4more

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/365959#Comment_365959

Does he not deserve a whopping-mega-on-your-knees Apology from us here?

No, he doesn't. This is a case of not doing enough research - don't assume! John F. is a former Logos employee who has Logos' blessing for his business. While he is not the official training company - that is Morris P. - he, like M[...]

The quick response is that we cast our own judgment on another for seeking to gain from a program we all use, but it is definitely done by others and we have no problem with it. Seems fairly evident that we act upon impulse of a ‘double-standard’.

Whether you feel that Justin deserves our heartfelt Apology or not will come from our own individual conscience, frankly I believe that he does.[sounds kurt, I know] So, hypothetically, if a former employee branches off and creates their own cd’s or the like and makes a personal profit – that is okay? But it is not okay for someone who has no affiliation past or present to do the same, but in a different capacity? Is this correct that I understand you are saying?

To some degree I can see where there is a two-fold effort from Justin’s work – we supply a basic docx and he in-turn does the serious work and we ‘pay’ him for it upon completion, fine. This brings to light the question of others – did they create the Logos Bible Software program, or are they using it to fulfill a need that others may have and reap the personal benefits of their labor? Seems to be in parallel as to what Justin offered – doesn’t it? If you can answer Yes, then we agree/If you answer No, then you should justify that answer…..

Troll, please. Do not insult my intelligence.

Yes, I would like to know how john could be a different case, seriously. Because he has seminars/webinars and from what I gathered from his site, Logos receives nothing from/for his work, but I could be wrong. Albeit, I do not really know, but it sure did not seem as such.

Also, it does seem to be true that he is still using Logos software for personal profit – this you cannot deny, since there is nothing on his site that accredits Logos as the recipient of the revenue received by John.

Don’t try to read what isn’t there, there is already too much of that going on now. Oh, by the way – Are you a Logos Employee that believes Justin is wrong and John is right?

Thanks.

Room4more

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/365968#Comment_365968

MJ, I was going to edit my post to include this but thought that you may be preparing a reply, So if you will indulge me I will just post it here,

If Justin adds his service as a link to his signature - then all will be fine. Since that is within the Guidelines:

advertise yourself, your business, your ministry, your website, etc. (a tasteful link in your forum signature is acceptable)

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/365970#Comment_365970

If Justin adds his service as a link to his signature - then all will be fine.

I would have no problem with that. If he were to ask, and only if he were to ask, I would caution him re:copyright issues. Then again I'd be astounded if he asked.

The primary distinction for purposes of setting your mind at ease is that John pays for ads in Logos' magazine[:D]

Room4more

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/365976#Comment_365976

If Justin adds his service as a link to his signature - then all will be fine.

I would have no problem with that. If he were to ask, and only if he were to ask, I would caution him re:copyright issues. Then again I'd be astounded if he asked.

The primary distinction for purposes of setting your mind at ease is that John pays for ads in Logos' magazine

To whom should he ask - You? Others here? Morris? Bob? The whole of the Logos Employee's?

This isn't about ad's in a magazine............yet, somehow I think that you know this... and if that is all he pays for then YES, he is using Logos Bible Software for personal gain -

Whats the difference?

Thanks.

Bill Coley

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/365955#Comment_365955

So then you think that I should not have apologized and just stated the obvious? wow, Interesting.

I did not say you shouldn't have apologized. I only applauded you for deciding whether to apologize on the basis of what "others seem to think" rather than your own self-awareness. Such high ground is rare in these morally turbulent times.

Hhhhmmm what about Justin? Does he not deserve a whopping-mega-on-your-knees Apology from us here? considering the content of the thread.........

If I read your original post correctly, whether Justin receives an apology will not depend on me, but on what others seem to think. I guess that means we have to wait for others to post. (Though I'm not sure how many "others" constitute enough "others" to generate an apology. Nor am I sure how much in agreement those "others" have to be in order to deserve said apology. A challenging subject, isn't this?)

Michael

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/365959#Comment_365959

What puzzles me is how to deal with you, fairly and even-handedly. In many of your posts I read you as eager and willing to help others. But in some of your posts your language sounds like a troll itching for a fight.

[Y]

Room4more

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/366007#Comment_366007

I did not say you shouldn't have apologized. I only applauded you for deciding whether to apologize on the basis of what "others seem to think" rather than your own self-awareness. Such high ground is rare in these morally turbulent times.

I wasn’t sure, so thanks for the clarity.

If I read your original post correctly, whether Justin receives an apology will not depend on me, but on what others seem to think. I guess that means we have to wait for others to post. (Though I'm not sure how many "others" constitute enough "others" to generate an apology. Nor am I sure how much in agreement those "others" have to be in order to deserve said apology. A challenging subject, isn't this?)

Unfortunately this is true. yet after all is said and done, I think that it would still be on an individual basis. I wouldn't want rufus to apologize because dufus did [rufus and dufus-Highlife magazine for kids (dates me i suppose)]

Thanks, Bill.

************

What puzzles me is how to deal with you, fairly and even-handedly. In many of your posts I read you as eager and willing to help others. But in some of your posts your language sounds like a troll itching for a fight.

Yes

Interesting point, The reason I avoided it in the first place was that a "troll looking for a fight would need to know another troll", and since I do not consider my self a troll I did not know what MJ was referring to, and i still don't. Just thought that this mindless dribble needed to be said.

Thanks Michael

*******

Also have noted that there has ne'er an HQ present yet.

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/366029#Comment_366029

do not consider my self a troll I did not know what MJ was referring to

Actually, this answer tells me a great deal about how to deal with you. If you read carefully you will note that I did not say that you were a troll, I said that your language sometimes sounds like a troll. Because I am a stickler for logic and precision in language (yes, I know, sometimes to the extreme [6]), I would expect us to have difficulty communicating well. Put another way, I'll be more at ease discussing the cosine measure of similarity in information retrieval with my nerdie grandson than classifying Logos forum posts against guidelines with you. Note that the latter was the key issue, not profit.

Room4more

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/366044#Comment_366044

do not consider my self a troll I did not know what MJ was referring to

Actually, this answer tells me a great deal about how to deal with you. If you read carefully you will note that I did not say that you were a troll, I said that your language sometimes sounds like a troll. Because I am a stickler for logic and precision in language (yes, I know, sometimes to the extreme ), I would expect us to have difficulty communicating well. Put another way, I'll be more at ease discussing the cosine measure of similarity in information retrieval with my nerdie grandson than classifying Logos forum posts against guidelines with you. Note that the latter was the key issue, not profit.

MJ: Honestly, you haven’t the first clue as how to “deal with me”. You know very little about me.[personally, that sounds as if you are putting yourself above me...as if you are my Superior/?] And I still don’t know exactly what you are/were referring to, guess that means u’r smarter than me…oh well, life goes on.

hate to go backwards; but if the main issue was about the guidelines then why bash the guy for not knowing, but then that wasn’t at the forefront was it? [sounds like I am repeating myself again, where have i done that before] and eventually the latter did turn into an issue that led to profit, about using Logos Bible Software as the vehicle that generated that personal profit.

Which brings up another point; How was Justin going to use the software for profit since he would have to do the meta-[addtexthere] for the docx first? And, only after you supplied him the docx to start from….since we no longer have access to his site I can not go back and check. Not evan in comparison to the making of CD"s and selling them for profit, is it? [this just keeps getting better by the post]

Boy, it would sure be nice to have HQ input here, again we are beginning to read about a squirrel chasing a rabbit.

Thanks Mj.

Garrett Ho

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/366050#Comment_366050

I would really like to read comments on how these two are different..

R4M, I'd like to humbly submit that the issue isn't whether people can make money "using Logos" but rather the promotion of it on Logos' forums. You asked why the video training is allowed but the PBB book making is not, and I'd offer that the PBB service shouldn't have been promoted/advertised on the forum (except in a signature).

While I didn't see the site while it was live, from the conversation it sounds like there might have been an issue with the distribution of copywritten works, and of course, that would be an issue as well.

I might have missed part of the discussion, but I don't think anyone is against a PBB-making service. I have a number of personal documents I'd pay a small fee to have nicely tagged. I think - and may be mistaken - that the issue was how it was promoted, and if it concerned copywritten works.

EmileB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/366054#Comment_366054

Garrett, thanks, that is a good clarification that I think R4M is missing, at least in terms of my own posts. I happen to think the idea in principle is good... it was the manner in which it was being done that raise concern. Yes, there was the issue of promoting it on the forums... which could have been addressed fairly easily by a subtle link. The greater issues for me involved the nature of the site... the logo taken from Logos, for example, which in my view, infringed on copyright issues, as did the tone and language of the site, the embedded videos without attribution... all of which provided the appearance of an official Logos site. There were improperly posted resources for download ("improper" per the site of the author himself, who asked that this not be done), but Justin withdrew these once this was brought to his attention, and much to his credit. So the issue for me was the manner in which it was done, which I really felt played fast and loose with the forum rules (admittedly, perhaps from ignorance), but also with intellectual property rights (a more serious legal issue)... something that it seems most people these days have very little respect or understanding for. And as some are more attuned to that than others, we can choose to disagree about that. No one sought to "dis" Justin... but some of us sought to make him aware that we felt it was inappropriate and unprofessional, and discourteous to Logos on several levels. I have no problem with someone using Logos software as a tool to make money in and of itself.

I'd also like to clarify that no one to my knowledge was judging Justin, his heart or his intentions (I made a point of that in my post, as did others). That is out of our purview, and well outside my abilities or desires. But we are called to discern and judge our actions (and our own hearts, of course) and the actions of others. I think that is all that anyone was seeking. And if we believe sincerely that an action is wrong, Justin need not receive an apology for our sharing of such a perspective. I perceived no personal attack, name calling etc. against him warranting an apology... just questions about his actions. Perhaps Justin feels differently, and if so, he can express that and I'm more than happy to evaluate that based on how HE read things.

In my own particular post, I sought to clarify the tone that I intended, and expressed that I understood that sometimes email and forum posts and the like can come across in ways that the author does not feel or intend, often as a result of the internal filters or innate defensiveness of the reader, but often simply due to the medium. In my opinion, and it is only an opinion, I often feel, R4M, that you read alot into the words of others, assuming perhaps a tone or meaning that isn't intended or felt... and in turn ascribing that very same thing to others. That's an unconscious thing if that's happening, but it surely does create confusion (and heat) that perhaps is not necessary, and causes people, rightly or wrongly, to dismiss the issues that you are trying to express.

I agree that HQ is the one who ultimately should determine if any copyright issues were infringed, and admonish Justin accordingly. I do believe it is, however, our obligation biblically as believers to comment in the event that we see something promoted that we believe to be outside the bounds, and we have been invited to do so by Logos' president and forum hosts, who have the right to say what they do or do not want to see occurring in their "house". Logos has invited us to make such comment. Comment was made. None of us "harped" on it with Justin. We expressed our view and let it go. Clarification seemed to be necessary from several posters for R4M's sake... when the comments weren't addressed to him in the first place. But yes, I think Logos should evaluate the situation. How will they know that the situation exists? Should we go running secretly to Bob at Logos to "snitch" on Justin? No, of course not. If they monitor the forums, they can learn about the situation's existence through the comments of the posters. Instead, we went to Justin and explained what we felt was wrong and why. Biblical approach as I understand it (fine... others may disagree. that's okay). Justin responded appropriately, thanked folks for the input, took down the site, and indicated that he would consult Logos. All appropriate. (it would have been best had he done so to start with, but, fine, he corrected it). All to his credit. It should have died there. The issue is being kept alive by one poster (who paradoxically keeps admonishing others to "drop it"), in my opinion, when it really has already been resolved and nothing more needs to be said. I'm not sure and can not judge the motivation for doing so. I'll try to assume the reason is that R4M truly doesn't understand and feels a deep desire or need to know. I guess we all have areas like that. But I agree that the proper place to address the question now is privately with the folks at Logos if there is concern about their policies/judgments/decisions. Talking about it here only further draws attention to Justin's (possible) mistakes... so the "defense" of Justin really is not doing him any kindness. I think he handled it well in response to the concerns expressed. If he was offended, it would be best for him to indicate that fact.... instead of another taking up his cause.

We all have a style of communicating... and some of us have styles that unintentionally abraid the other. Perhaps we can try to assume good intentions for all? And as nothing further seems to be "resolvable" by this debate, and as it only draws attention negatively to Justin, for brotherly kindness' sake, can we simply agree that we can see or evaluate this differently, and may we all try to finally just let this rest?

Room4more

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/366054#Comment_366054

Garrett,

Granted, he probably could have used a better approach, being superfluous in mentioning it, applicable to the copyright issues as well.

PBB service, well it appeared that some were. I perused the site and found it rather attractive as well. Personally I do not think that he was using Logos bible software as a means for personal profit, tho upfront it may have appeared so, the revenue seems generated from his own ability, which did not include the making of many cd’s and selling them for profit, but rather his work in another capacity which he was offering/selling[if we can use the word incorrectly here].

Again I refer to HQ involvement. Maybe they can clarify some of the issues being discussed here and from the other site. But this whole idea dosen't really seem to be an issue with them. So I think that if Justin re-did his site and made a signature, then all is well..............but I still believe that an Apology is owed the Gentleman, of course thats just me thinking out loud.....

Thanks Garrett.

Room4more

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/366066#Comment_366066

Emile, I do not even know where to begin..No, I m not missing anything...but you are doing it again: “”After having reviewed the site, I have to agree that this is discourteous, inappropriate, unprofessional, and in clear violation of forum rules... at best, deceptive (as fgh noted), and at worst, a violation of a number of copywrite and intellectual property rights as defined by both American and international law. This just isn't how to go about doing things, Justin, even if you have good intentions (which i will readily allow). Please show respect for Logos and their policies, and for your brothers in the Lord who lead Logos' business, by not embedding Logos' (or MP's) videos as if they were your own, stealing/altering the Logos logo, using their name, etc. I'd really like to suggest that you simply take down the site, but that is between you and the Lord. But i If you respect Logos, which I trust you do from the words on your site, please do try to show the company more professional courtesy”” ----[from other thread – note the similarities to this one current] -------What gives you the right to say what he[Justin] can or cannot do? As you are doing again here as well....What?

Are you employed by Logos, then turn him in!! You, personally, as stated above did more than just “...but some of us sought to make him aware that we felt it was inappropriate and unprofessional, and discourteous to Logos on several levels.” –If it was just a subtle link that was all that would be needed, then you should have just stated as such but you didn’t - you bit him off chewed him up and spit him out........We are not called to judge the actions of others especially on this forum. Where did you get that? Not from here. Not from the ‘guidelines’. Your own words seem to contradict your own words.

By the way, they do monitor the forums, trust me they do. So, “But yes, I think Logos should evaluate the situation. How will they know that the situation exists? Should we go running secretly to Bob at Logos to "snitch" on Justin? No, of course not. If they monitor the forums, they can learn about the situation's existence through the comments of the posters. Instead, we went to Justin and explained what we felt was wrong and why. Biblical approach as I understand it (fine... others may disagree. that's okay). Justin responded appropriately, thanked folks for the input, took down the site, and indicated that he would consult Logos.” --Is deceptive and misleading to make it seem that we are obligated or are some sort of 'forum police', and you will note that HQ made NO comments on the other thread, and “reprimand” would be more appropriate. I think i would have done the same as Justin had you said to me what you said to him.

This thread was not meant to be an extension of the other, if it was then I would have added it to there, but rather the question was "Why can't Justin do the same?" clearly stated at the beginning. Did you miss it? It seems apparent that you did...

Don’t you find it rather strange or even the slightest sense of responsibility that he has not returned? I won’t comment on the rest....it just gives me the impression that you are attempting to justify you earlier words.......

Thanks Emile.

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/366074#Comment_366074

By the way, they do monitor the forums, trust me they do.

While Bob P. mentioned after a previous blowup on the forums that they might have to hire a person to monitor the forums, I have no reason to believe that they are currently monitoring the forum beyond bugs, suggestions and reported abuse.

note that HQ made NO comments on the other thread

Note that the original poster corrected the problem before Logos had any reason to be involved. No reprimand was needed. Justin appears to have been quite willing to let the subject drop. I would hope that he considers reviving the PB service with appropriate attention to the copyright issues.

Room4more

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/366076#Comment_366076

By the way, they do monitor the forums, trust me they do.

While Bob P. mentioned after a previous blowup on the forums that they might have to hire a person to monitor the forums, I have no reason to believe that they are currently monitoring the forum beyond bugs, suggestions and reported abuse.

note that HQ made NO comments on the other thread

Note that the original poster corrected the problem before Logos had any reason to be involved. No reprimand was needed. Justin appears to have been quite willing to let the subject drop. I would hope that he considers reviving the PB service with appropriate attention to the copyright issues.

Thanks MJ,

some might find this interesting reading: http://community.logos.com/forums/t/6923.aspx?PageIndex=1 Please pay attention to reading page 2 and on, you may be enlightened.......NOTE: some of the links are slightly outdated since they go to the NEW page..and the statements associated do not match the link, the thread is just about three years old.....

Thanks MJ.

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/366077#Comment_366077

On what date did Logos add forum guidelines partially because of the lack of common sense and manners? hint: http://community.logos.com/forums/p/10074/79667.aspx

Room4more

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/366078#Comment_366078

On what date did Logos add forum guidelines partially because of the lack of common sense and manners?

It's dated 2010, but i believe that it was a year, maybe two, before that......I really can't remember, but I do remember Phil from the ng's, which predates this forum by a few years.....

Hope this helps.

Room4more

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/366079#Comment_366079

YA'KNO, it's kinda funny, I know of some ## who were there then that are here now and they still post the same as they did then...maybe just not as ______, but still................it does make me chuckle when I read their posts and the manner in which they do it....

Thanks all.

toughski

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/366086#Comment_366086

MJ, did you lose your avatar or is it just my system?

Graham Criddle

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/366219#Comment_366219

There is currently an issue with avatars - see http://community.logos.com/forums/t/49395.aspx - which Logos is working on.

Hopefully it will be fixed shortly