Your input needed: Faithlife Study Bible
Comments
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tom collinge said:David Taylor Jr said:
I guess my point is you do not have to have a P.H. D. to grasp those concepts or obtain those skills. It is unfortunate that we have become so reliant on Academia that we fail to credit the leading and wisdom given by the Spirit. Tragic really.
I believe that the Holy Spirit works through organizations like academia and the church; not individuals.
For an example, I have witness a person saying that spirit has given him this 'wisdom.' And this wisdom didn't make any sense. Later, it was discovered that this person had a mental illness, and this person had stop taking his medications.
I want all 'wisdom' to be tested to be ensured that the Holy Spirit provided the 'wisdom.' Because of this, I like academia's testing of things.
Never said that you shouldn't test them, but to require someone writing a commentary about the Bible to have a PH.D other wise be counted as not credible enough is ridiculous. Absurd really, and NOT Biblical. That is an approach of a Pharisaical point of view. Not a Christ like view.
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tom collinge said:David Taylor Jr said:
I guess my point is you do not have to have a P.H. D. to grasp those concepts or obtain those skills. It is unfortunate that we have become so reliant on Academia that we fail to credit the leading and wisdom given by the Spirit. Tragic really.
I believe that the Holy Spirit works through organizations like academia and the church; not individuals.
For an example, I have witness a person saying that spirit has given him this 'wisdom.' And this wisdom didn't make any sense. Later, it was discovered that this person had a mental illness, and this person had stop taking his medications.
I want all 'wisdom' to be tested to be ensured that the Holy Spirit provided the 'wisdom.' Because of this, I like academia's testing of things.
James said that ANYONE can ask for Wisdom that God gives it freely. Wisdom being the word sophia. If you are a Greek scholar you know what that word means, and you know that it does not fit the "must have a PH.D. to be credible" model.
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I am slow to equate expertise with degrees as I can name several experts who don't have degrees and many with degrees who are not expert. And often prolific scholars rely heavily on their graduate students to do the actual work. And who one does a degree under can say a great deal about the quality of the degree. I do know, however, that the academics writing the FSB are writing under the restriction of "broadly evangelical" rather than a free "wherever the evidence takes me". For many readers this is a comfort, for others an obstacle.
More importantly, however, is that a true expert writing in the area of their expertise with complete academic freedom can still make a bonehead statement. The scholar who is willing to say "oops" is the one whose commentary I wish to read.
As far as I have read in FSB, it seems to be doing a reasonable job of maintaining its integrity and focus ... who writes what does not seem to be critical because of the editing process.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:
who writes what does not seem to be critical
It does not matter who says that God is love, it is still true.
Mission: To serve God as He desires.
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Tom, thanks for the further thoughts. To answer the questions you raised:
- The authoring and editing of notes for FSB was/is collaborative, so there are aren't "single" authors for notes, per se--instead, after notes are first penned, they go through a review and editing process where they get improved, added to, reworked, enhanced, etc. To use the Genesis 1:1 example, four of us authored parts of the notes for that verse and an additional three editors worked on it.
- Regarding your concern about original languages' knowledge, our academic editor, our contributing editors, and I (general editor) each know the original languages. We also each have knowledge in several other ancient languages (between the team, there are about a dozen ancient languages/dialects covered and several other modern languages). Each major contributor and our theological editor all either know the original languages of the Bible or have an area of expertise that was needed for the project (such as history of interpretation, church fathers, dating of biblical texts and events, etc.). In addition, our academic editor, our contributing editors, and I (general editor), have all done extensive academic transcription and translation work of ancient works and the biblical text. (Two examples from our team of original language work: Michael S. Heiser prepared the Hebrew and Canaanite database for Logos' Semitic Inscriptions and edited/tagged the Old Testament Greek Pseudepigrapha [for Logos]; Matthew M. Whitehead has worked on the Oxford Hebrew Bible project and the Discoveries in the Judaean Desert series.)
I hope that clarifies everything. Let me know if you have further thoughts or concerns.
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John D. Barry said:
I hope that clarifies everything. Let me know if you have further thoughts or concerns.
Thanks John,
Thanks and one more thing. Can you make this information more easily known. In the front of all study bibles, there are pages and pages and pages of information about the study bible. Can you do something simmilar. Thanks
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Hello David,
David Taylor Jr said:I guess my point is you do not have to have a P.H. D. to grasp those concepts or obtain those skills.
I agree with you that one can attain proficiency in Hebrew apart from the Academy! In fact thousands of people around the world do as it is a per-request for one to take part in worship in some faithful congregations.
David Taylor Jr said:It is unfortunate that we have become so reliant on Academia that we fail to credit the leading and wisdom given by the Spirit. Tragic really.
Well, then let me be the first to give credit to the leading and wisdom given by the inspiration and the spirit through the following sample of great Christians of history:
- Saint Jerome
- Johann Reuchlin
- Sebastian Münster
- Daniel Bomberg
- Franz Delitzsch
- Heinrich Friedrich Wilhelm Gesenius
- Paul Ernst Kahle
- Erasmus of Rotterdam
Sed in primis ad fontes ipsos properandum, id est graecos et antiquos.
Desiderius Erasmus Roterodamus
חַפְּשׂוּ בַּתּוֹרָה הֵיטֵב וְאַל תִּסְתַּמְּכוּ עַל דְּבָרַי
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John D. Barry said:
1. The authoring and editing of notes for FSB was/is collaborative, so there are aren't "single" authors for notes ...
Notes by the consensus of a committee. Hmmm. Does a better formula exist for developing a totally vanilla/flaccid set of notes?
Sorry for being so negative.
Instead of Artificial Intelligence, I prefer to continue to rely on Divine Intelligence instructing my Natural Dullness (Ps 32:8, John 16:13a)
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tom collinge said:
I believe that the Holy Spirit works through organizations like academia and the church; not individuals.
I love the way that was stated!
tom collinge said:I want all 'wisdom' to be tested to be ensured that the Holy Spirit provided the 'wisdom.' Because of this, I like academia's testing of things.
Agreed!
חַפְּשׂוּ בַּתּוֹרָה הֵיטֵב וְאַל תִּסְתַּמְּכוּ עַל דְּבָרַי
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tom collinge said:
I believe that the Holy Spirit works through organizations like academia and the church; not individuals.
I find this statement at odds with the teachings of the Bible which quite clearly indicate that the Holy Spirit fills/works through individuals and that these individuals come together to make up the Church. Also, when speaking of the Church I think that the Bible is clear about the local Church and the catholic (note the small c) Church but I'm not convinced that it speaks about denominational Church authority. Finally, I'd love to know how academia gets a role based on the text of the Bible.
God Bless
Graham
Pastor - NTCOG Basingstoke
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Graham Owen said:tom collinge said:
I believe that the Holy Spirit works through organizations like academia and the church; not individuals.
I find this statement at odds with the teachings of the Bible which quite clearly indicate that the Holy Spirit fills/works through individuals and that these individuals come together to make up the Church. Also, when speaking of the Church I think that the Bible is clear about the local Church and the catholic (note the small c) Church but I'm not convinced that it speaks about denominational Church authority. Finally, I'd love to know how academia gets a role based on the text of the Bible.
I am just as guilty, but we are now moving the discussion to theology. Because of this, I will not answer this question here in the forums. I will discuss in it faithlife (but I am not faithful checking the site). Therefore, if you would like to form a group to talk about this in faithlife, I will answer your question there.
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I agree with not wandering too far into the theology world or the specifics of Tom's thoughts. But the NT (and OT actually) has a lot of guidance to 'test' those who propose to teach/prophesy. Although that sounds logical and quite do-able, in practice it very quickly drills into the text itself (to actually 'test' and obtain 'meaning'). And so I suspect products like Logos (especially the OL/critical resources) do speak to a long-standing challenge.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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tom collinge said:Graham Owen said:tom collinge said:
I believe that the Holy Spirit works through organizations like academia and the church; not individuals.
I find this statement at odds with the teachings of the Bible which quite clearly indicate that the Holy Spirit fills/works through individuals and that these individuals come together to make up the Church. Also, when speaking of the Church I think that the Bible is clear about the local Church and the catholic (note the small c) Church but I'm not convinced that it speaks about denominational Church authority. Finally, I'd love to know how academia gets a role based on the text of the Bible.
I am just as guilty, but we are now moving the discussion to theology. Because of this, I will not answer this question here in the forums. I will discuss in it faithlife (but I am not faithful checking the site). Therefore, if you would like to form a group to talk about this in faithlife, I will answer your question there.
Agreed, I would love a separate place to discuss Theology. Tom will you be creating the group?
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Tom Castle said:Into Grace said:
Bob,
Why do you keep calling Faithlife "free". A credit card is required with an agreement to an upcoming annual subscription. A person does not own anything. After the trial runs out you start charging an annual subscription. Should they decide to opt out, they have nothing. Logos would have a lot more credibility if they were truthful. Your program is free for nothing.
You do? I didn't give a credit card I don't believe. Also, FREE for a term has been the way it's been marketed from the beginning. Directly from the FSB web page you can find this:
Subscribe
Use your coupon code to get the FSB for free through March 2014.
Not sure how much MORE TRUTHFUL they can be than telling the truth in the parameters of the product. FREE THROUGH MARCH 2014 is full disclosure in my opinion.
I for one did not read it in a manner in which "full disclosure" could be implied. I read it as saying it's free through March 2014. After that, it will no longer be free. Of course, my bad, for not reading everything in it's entirety. Maybe I should do that with all of Logos' "freebies". When "free book of the month" is offered, it is offered through the end of the month. Does this mean after the month, I will be subjected to paying for it? I now have to read extremely closely what is offered as free vs. free for now?
Of course, I NEVER would have ever assumed a Bible (digital or otherwise) would be subscription based.
Regardless, I will be more careful now.0 -
Into Grace.
We are indeed each accountable for our own actions. However, if anyone is offended by your statement, they should not be.
I'm not sure Logos intended to be deceptive or once again, bad phrasing/marketing.
I was completely unaware of this as being a subscription. That makes this something Bob Pritchard will be accountable for, I am sure.0 -
Bob;
First, please accept my apology for misspelling your name in the previous post.
Second, this will now be at least my second confrontation with you regarding the integrity of Logos. This is becoming very scary as I previously reprimanded the company as grossly profiting off materials that belong to God. Your response to me was semi-reasonable, that Logos never claimed to be a ministry, but, rather a corporation; a company, with the goal of every other company: to make money. I also stated that I did not necessarily begrudge you or the company anything financial; that it takes money to produce the products; to do the research, and pay for the excellent customer support we receive. And, I do mean this.
Now, here we are again, a couple months later, and once again, the level of integrity at Logos is being questioned. Not once tonight, but, twice. No, make that three times.
Once here, on this issue.
Once on this product, but the issue of being called "The first group study Bible"
And once with the way Community Pricing works. (Although, in all honesty, I never really believed that to be suspicious; just an appearance of suspicion).
Here's my problems, in more detail.
The person who called Logos "blatant liars" over the wording of "First group Bible study Bible" seemed satisfied that that was a marketing mess up.
I received an email that said if we enter the coupon code "free" it would be free. I suspect my email is now trashed. Unlike some of the screenshots here, when one enters the coupon code initially, I only see $0.00 all the way down. Nothing about "Free until...." or "auto renew" Nothing.
This is very questionable to me. Some feel there was enough disclosure. Well, they would be wrong. Whether the intention is deceptive or not, it should be extremely obvious by the reaction of people, many had no clue. And, I suspect when people's cards do get charged, there will be many many complaints, because it did not come out as clear what would happen.
That MUST be addressed to all who downloaded the "free" program.
Of course, if there is no integrity, and it was intentionally deceptive marketing, nobody will receive an email/sign in apology and warning of this.
Finally, I will state the 3rd questionable act. There is apparently a policy to lower the increments in Community Pricing. Let me start this out by stating several concessions on my part.
1. Logos can charge whatever they want.
2. Several people have responded to my inquiry on this issue. I have not yet read (and understood them all).
3. Being rather new to the Community Pricing options, I am not 100% up to par how things are done. I finally have a grasp on how pricing is supposed to work. But, there are, apparently, things I still do not understand.That being said, I still have issue with how that works. And again, I acknowledge my ignorances, and understand you wish to have Logos a "transparent company". Which, if it is not merely a catch phrase and company slogan, I find it admirable, and a great thing. So, assuming the truthfulness of that desire, I have a couple concerns that seem to be contrary to transparency and honesty.
1. At 1am, I wrote a post on a Christian forum "pushing" the Charles Spurgeon collection. At that time there was a bid option of $75, $50, and $25. By 9am, the increments changed, creating several options in $5 increments.
The problem is not with the added incremental options, but, rather with the percentages within those increments. It seems to me as if those are "fake" percentages.
2. The Princeton Journals started with a $25 minimum bid. A week or so in, the minimum became $50.
Now, i'm told this is because the journals are so expensive, they'd never get to production at that cost.
Once again, I do not say Logos cannot charge what they want. It just appears suspicious to me.There may be nothing suspicious going on. And, every company is entitled to error, because we are all human. And, i am sure all of these questionable issues have completely innocent answers. My point in even mentioning them is, it seems there is a huge disconnect from what is intended and what is. Simple little things can be misconstrued, and all of a sudden people think there is a huge lack of trust. I am writing these things in hopes to point out that things HAVE to be worked out so as to minimize mistakes and appearances of distrust.
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LegendsOfBatman said:
At 1am, I wrote a post on a Christian forum "pushing" the Charles Spurgeon collection. At that time there was a bid option of $75, $50, and $25. By 9am, the increments changed, creating several options in $5 increments.
The problem is not with the added incremental options, but, rather with the percentages within those increments. It seems to me as if those are "fake" percentages.Nothing fake. All $75 bids are also bids on $70, $65, $60 and so on. (If you're willing to pay $75, you'e obviously willing to pay $70.)
Mac Pro (late 2013) OS 12.6.2
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Bob, you should take a look at http://community.logos.com/forums/p/53151/388172.aspx#388172 to see a real life example of a confused user trying to understand what FSB is. Should be very instructive.[:)]
And this is a user with 525 posts! If you can't explain it so that he gets it, how can you expect to reach newbies?
Mac Pro (late 2013) OS 12.6.2
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LegendsOfBatman said:
Bob;
First, please accept my apology for misspelling your name in the previous post.
This is hilarious. Thank you for making me laugh!
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LegendsOfBatman said:
I for one did not read it in a manner in which "full disclosure" could be implied. I read it as saying it's free through March 2014. After that, it will no longer be free. Of course, my bad, for not reading everything in it's entirety. Maybe I should do that with all of Logos' "freebies". When "free book of the month" is offered, it is offered through the end of the month. Does this mean after the month, I will be subjected to paying for it? I now have to read extremely closely what is offered as free vs. free for now?
Of course, I NEVER would have ever assumed a Bible (digital or otherwise) would be subscription based.
Regardless, I will be more careful now.I agree that the language is ambiguous here. It may mean "free use of the product until you have to pay for continuation of use after March 2014" or "own the product
for free if you get it before March 2014." The problem seems to be with
the word "get". What does it mean to "get the FSB"? I believe that it
is clarified elsewhere that this is a subscription service, but this
phrase should be made more explicit. I really don't believe that Logos
was trying to be deceptive or intentionally ambiguous in their
marketing. I'm sure it was just an oversight.With regard to the Bible being subscription based, that is simply not
the case. They are not charging for the Bible. Here is another case of
poor wording. The Faithlife Study Bible is not actually a Bible. It is a
commentary that couples with the Bible, the Lexham English Bible by
default. You can get the LEB for free when you download the Logos app,
along with the NIV, ESV, NASB, etc, which will then incorporate into the
FSB app. There is never a charge for the Logos app, only for additional
materials to use with it. That being said, one does not pay for the
Bible in FSB, but for the content included in the commentary portion of
the application. The reason it is subscription and not a one time fee is
because it is not a completed work like other commentaries, but a work
in progress. Logos has been clear that they will continue to add
material. This is what you will be paying for, should you choose.0 -
Bob, I used the Logos iOS beta apps. They are very similar to the FSB app and the only thing I've used FSB for is the discussion threads. While I appreciate everything that FSB can do as a current Logos app user I really have no need for most of what FSB app provides and will cancel before I'm charged for as I alrady have most of the resources and use the Logos app. I don't feel I should have to pay to access resources I already own. I mainly use the Logos app for daily reading and during service. I don't use the Logos notes because they are not very effective in their current state. I use Mac Journal on my iPad to take notes during service and just 4 finger swipe between apps.
As for other users, I direct any one asking me to the Logos, for one it's free and comes with a few resources. Most of the people that I know who use smart phone/tablet apps want the ability to read the Bible, take notes and have a reading plan. They can do all of that with other apps for free so most of them would not pay for the subscription. To me they only thing that sets FSB apart is the discussion threads from Faith Life, but that alone is not worth $30 a year. I would rather see the discussion threads in Logos rather than have to use FSB, even a separate app just for the Faith Life discussion threads would be good but FSB is overkill for me and not worth the subscription.
The reason my church hasn't started using Faith Life is the fact that will eventually have to pay for the FSB app where as the Facebook app is free. My church already uses Facebook and doesn't want to switch to something that will cost people money to stay connected. $30 can be a lot of money to some people and my Pastor doesn't want to burden them with the expense. While you can access the Faith Life site from a mobile browser it's not optimized for mobile devices and always requires you to pinch/double tap to zoom in and your always having to drag the page around. It's just not as simple and easy as an app (i.e Facebook app). While Faith Life has a lot more functionality for the Church they already use Facebook and have become use to it. They see no reason to switch to something that will cost money.
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Aaron, while it makes sense that the commentary is the reason for the cost it doesn't make sense for me to pay for a subscription to a commentary that is constantly being updated. The commentary might be from a different theological background than what I believe. While there are some commentaries that are denomination/belief independent and are enjoyed by everyone, there are some that can be specific to denomination. I am not will to pay for a subscription to a commentary that I might not even agree with. I am from a spirit filled/charismatic/pentecostal background and while I love all my brothers and sisters wether they are Reformed/Baptist/Catholic or any other denomination there are some things we don not agree on. I could not recommend to anyone a commentary that I myself am not sure I agree with. I'm sure the same goes for everyone. While we can all agree that Jesus is the Christ, the son of the living God, there are other matters we don't agree on and I'm not so sure that a commentary could be made that we all would like.
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I see your point and agree. I try to stick with guys that I know are solid exegetes, and don't base my decisions on denominational affiliation or series title. Having been trained languages, much of the stuff I find in commentaries I am able to find myself if I spend the time with the text. I am, therefore, very selective of the commentaries I purchase.
Personally, I like the idea of the people in my church having access to some material for Bible study that would not be easily accessible to them, otherwise. I am most excited about the possibilities for community interaction and accountability in reading the Bible. I don't think that I'm ready to fork over $30 bucks a year for it, though; not to mention that it would be a hard sell for my church.
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Bob,
I've read through this thread and still haven't found an answer to my question or confusion. I've spent 1,000's of dollars on LOGOS. WHY would I even need FSB? I can see some of my friends using this, but why would I need FSB when I have all the resources I've purchased with LOGOS 4 and now with my upgrade to v5?
I understand that there is the community notes feature and I might use that with the online community. Outside of that? I see no use to duplicate what I already own.
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Donald Leigh Cooley III said:
Bob,
I've read through this thread and still haven't found an answer to my question or confusion. I've spent 1,000's of dollars on LOGOS. WHY would I even need FSB? I can see some of my friends using this, but why would I need FSB when I have all the resources I've purchased with LOGOS 4 and now with my upgrade to v5?
I understand that there is the community notes feature and I might use that with the online community. Outside of that? I see no use to duplicate what I already own.
Don't get it then...and if you have it, don't use it.
Done!
ASUS ProArt x570s Creator, AMD R9 5950x, HyperX 64gb 3600 RAM, ASUS Strix RTX 2080 ti
"The Unbelievable Work...believe it or not." Little children...Biblical prophecy is not Christianity's friend.
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Hi Donald - and welcome to the forums
Donald Leigh Cooley III said:I've read through this thread and still haven't found an answer to my question or confusion. I've spent 1,000's of dollars on LOGOS. WHY would I even need FSB? I can see some of my friends using this, but why would I need FSB when I have all the resources I've purchased with LOGOS 4 and now with my upgrade to v5?
In general, I think you are right. The initial targeting of the FSB - and I think this is still the approach - is that it was to make additional Bible study tools available to people who were interested but weren't going to make the sort of investments that acquiring L4 / L5 takes. So the target market is different.
Having said that, FSB does have some useful resources - such as some of the Infographics, photos and videos which can be useful.
Donald Leigh Cooley III said:I understand that there is the community notes feature and I might use that with the online community.
These are accessible from within L4 / L5 - and one of the ideas is that a group leader (pastor, etc) might publish notes from within Logos for people within his / her group to access from FSB.
So the FSB is part of Logos' overall approach to making Bible study more accessible - it is for each of us to determine how it fits (or doesn't) within the environment in which we are working and studying.
Hope this helps
Graham
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In the FWIW file...
Stop complaining...it's free forever now...use it or don't. [:#]
ASUS ProArt x570s Creator, AMD R9 5950x, HyperX 64gb 3600 RAM, ASUS Strix RTX 2080 ti
"The Unbelievable Work...believe it or not." Little children...Biblical prophecy is not Christianity's friend.
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David Paul...Twice in 40 minutes you responded very rudely. Why is that? I LOVE my LOGOS package, my biggest problem with it is that I want to buy MORE resources. As if more than 4,500 aren't enough. I got an email yesterday saying that the next 2.5 million FSB downloads were free for life. I JUST wanted to know if getting the FSB was redundant to L5 or if it was an enhancement to L5. Not once was there a complaint. Other threads I've commented on, people usually come back and say to read previous comments. I wanted people to know I did that before posting my COMMENT and NOT a complaint. Why would I complain? I wanted some clarification before I lost a percieved opportunity to improve my L5 even more for free. I was excited that's all.
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Hi Donald
I thought Mick's comments on the FSB in the thread at http://community.logos.com/forums/p/64267/450535.aspx#450535 were helpful in summarising some of the key things provided by the FSB
Graham
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Thank you Graham Criddle...
I wanted to know if the FSB was an enhancement to LOGOS. I've seen here and other places that it is a Starter package to draw peoples attention TO the LOGOS base packages. I have also seen the FSB consistently marketed on my Home screen when I open LOGOS. I couldn't understand WHY they would market this to people that already OWN a LOGOS package unless it was an enhancement to LOGOS. Otherwise why market it to LOGOS owners???
Not sure if I'm clearly explaining the confussion I had. Sorry about that. Thank you again for your answer. Very helpful. Now I know I won't "miss out" on something to make my L5 even more useful. I will be sure to tell everyone I know about the FSB. Especially the few I know who are not sure if they want to spend the money on a LOGOS base package.
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Donald Leigh Cooley III said:
Now I know I won't "miss out" on something to make my L5 even more useful.
Let me tell you what you might miss out on… Faithlife includes not only the study bible, but also some graphics, photos & videos, which may supplement your library. Personally, I avoid the study bible (largely because I already have so many great resources), but the media is good. FWIW - I would be more inclined to use the FaithLife Study Bible if I was using it with a small group… I would be open to that in the future, and now would be an ideal time to grab it.
macOS, iOS & iPadOS |Logs| Install
Choose Truth Over Tribe | Become a Joyful Outsider!0 -
alabama24 said:Donald Leigh Cooley III said:
Now I know I won't "miss out" on something to make my L5 even more useful.
FWIW - I would be more inclined to use the FaithLife Study Bible if I was using it with a small group… I would be open to that in the future, and now would be an ideal time to grab it.
VERY good point! I am getting the FSB on my FIRE HD right now. Thank You!
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