Theology/Denomination Tags
Comments
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(one is ordained into the rite of the ordaining bishop)
Thanks, MJ. I wasn't sure about the effect of being consecrated by Pope John Paul II, but if it's his ordination that counts then I'm happy to accept that. I've changed the spreadsheet, though I'll make more changes before republishing it.
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but if it's his ordination that counts then I'm happy to accept that.
And that that the German Wikipedia gives his rite as Syro-Malabar[;)] It is possible for a priest to change rites and to be multiple rites but as far as I know this is a straight forward case.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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I couldn't find Chacour at Logos.com.
Check Vyrso.
Quick comments:
- Forigno should be Foligno.
- Change Discalced Carmelite (OCD) to Carmelite, Discalced (OCD), so that the two branches sort together.
- I suspect OFS and TOSF are simply the Latin and English abbreviations for the same branch of secular Franciscans. MJ?
- It seems Jean Marie Vianney and Jeanne d'Arc were both TOSF: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Order_of_Saint_Francis#Notable_members (which also mentions a number of popes).
- As MJ states above, Francis de Sales was an Oratorian, not a Capucin.
- I've never heard the word Visitationist. I'm used to Visitandine. But then I'm not a native speaker. MJ?
- I'd still prefer Brennan Manning as an ordinary lay Catholic, since he left both the order and the priesthood. And I'd still prefer von Balthasar as Jesuit, as that's where his spirituality comes from.
Lutheran / Church of Sweden:
- Bo Giertz 1905-1998
- Cristina Grenholm 1959->
- Lars Hartman 1930->
- Bengt Hägglund (not Hagglund!) 1920->
- Antje Jackelén 1955->
- Krister Stendahl 1921-2008
- Gustaf Wingren 1910-2000
Swedish Mission Covenant Church:
- Paul Petter Waldenström 1838-1917
(I guess you'll have to list him under Reformed, since internationally that's where they're organized, though in many ways they're more Lutheran than Reformed.)
Swedes of unknown confession:
- Karin Hedner Zetterholm
- Magnus Zetterholm
- Samuel Byrskog 1957->
I've added Chacour, corrected Foligno, changed to Carmelite (Discalced), and changed Brennan Manning.
It looks like OFS is a subset of TOSF, as they can be Regular, rather than Secular. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Order_of_St._Francis#Third_Order_Regular)
Apologies over Francis de Sales. I didn't read carefully enough. He was only an associate member of the OFM Cap and although the foundation he started died out soon after, the Oratory is still strong today. I've changed his category to the Oratory.
Visitandine looks better, though it looks like they're known as both. I've changed it.
The normal rule (suggested long ago by MJ) is that we categorise with what was applicable at the time of writing. Therefore von Balthasar would be a diocesan priest. However, there may be a better reason, as you argue, to leave him as a Jesuit. MJ?
Thanks for all the Swedes. I've added all except the unknown confessions. I'd rather wait until someone provides evidence for their confessions.
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I wouldn't normally publish updates so close together, but this has a fantastic new feature, thanks to some new code from Randy Sims.
You can now filter the spreadsheet, click the new button in cell BH1, and a rule to match the filtered list will appear in cell BI1. Copy this into a new collection in Logos and you can now generate rules for Female Presbyterians, US Lutherans, or Evangelical Anglicans. There are lots of possible permutations.
I know the feature will prove really useful to me. I hope it will be useful to others as well.
Many thanks, Randy. [:D]
Here's the spreadsheet:
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Benedict of Nursia I left uncategorised. Would it be anachronistic to label him OSB, as suggested by http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benedict_of_Nursia? I'll add Benedictine if not.
He should be OSB for sorting and other practical purposes. Oratories are autonomous congregations that (presently) form a loose confederation, but no one would label St. Philip Neri (accidental founder of the first Oratory) as non-Oratorian. Besides that, a lot of people will be confused if St. Benedict is not labelled as a Benedictine and, more importantly, it will throw off their searching.
“The trouble is that everyone talks about reforming others and no one thinks about reforming himself.” St. Peter of Alcántara
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However, there may be a better reason, as you argue, to leave him as a Jesuit. MJ?
It seems reasonable.
Are you going to update the Faithlife Collections or do we have to update off the spreadsheet?
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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I hadn't checked in on this discussion for a few months and am amazed by the progress, but found it hard to know how to do the updates now. There aren't any instructions that I could find in the Faithlife group, or on the spreadsheet (though I did update each collection from the Faithlife group after reading an earlier post). With this latest spreadsheet, I pressed the 'Refresh' button on the "Logos Rules" tab of the spreadsheet. Is that all I have to do?
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Benedict of Nursia I left uncategorised. Would it be anachronistic to label him OSB, as suggested by http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benedict_of_Nursia? I'll add Benedictine if not.
He should be OSB for sorting and other practical purposes. Oratories are autonomous congregations that (presently) form a loose confederation, but no one would label St. Philip Neri (accidental founder of the first Oratory) as non-Oratorian. Besides that, a lot of people will be confused if St. Benedict is not labelled as a Benedictine and, more importantly, it will throw off their searching.
Thanks. I've changed him to OSB.
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Von Balthasar is now Jesuit.
It's a good question about updating the collections. I usually try to publish the spreadsheet and collections at the same time, but it takes quite a while to go through all the collections, so there may sometimes be a lag. I'd be only too happy if someone offered to republish all of the collections each time the spreadsheet is updated. I don't have much time at the moment, so updating the collections means less work on the spreadsheet, and there's still a lot I'd like to do to it.
Any offers to update would be greatly appreciated. [:D]
The plan is to publish all of the Denomination Streams and Theologies, but only the Denominations with the most authors, simply because it takes so much time. I'd be only too happy for them all to be done. Other Denominations can be updated from the spreadsheet by anyone interested.
Of course, the original plan was to simply show it was achievable and suggest Logos did it all for us. Much of it could then happen automatically. Occasionally Logos change the way an author's name is listed, but I can only change the spreadsheet and collections if someone lets me know. If the project was taken over by Logos, it could be automatic.
I've learned a lot from the project, but the bigger the project, the more time it takes. It either needs more crowdsourcing, to be taken over by Logos, or to slow down a bit.
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I hadn't checked in on this discussion for a few months and am amazed by the progress, but found it hard to know how to do the updates now. There aren't any instructions that I could find in the Faithlife group, or on the spreadsheet (though I did update each collection from the Faithlife group after reading an earlier post). With this latest spreadsheet, I pressed the 'Refresh' button on the "Logos Rules" tab of the spreadsheet. Is that all I have to do?
It's great to hear you can see progress, Darren. If you join the Faithlife group and get copies of the collections, then they should update automatically for you. (Although I mentioned a possible lag in the previous post, they have generally kept up-to-date with the spreadsheet.) Many more collections are generated by the spreadsheet that are not yet Faithlife collections (see previous post). You can also now use the button in Cell BH1 to generate your own collections, based on filtering the spreadsheet. Unless you're updating the spreadsheet data yourself, you shouldn't need to hit the 'Refresh' button.
Hope that's at least a little clearer. Feel free to come back with questions.
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Kenneth Keathley ought to be listed in the Southern Baptist denomination (note, click "K" to sort by last names that start with K and scroll down).
He has a book in Logos & Vyrso I believe. Also He is a Molinist (the topic of his book).
Peter Abelard: I think he's benedictine (OSB). He was ordained at The Basilica of St. Denis in France (one I've visited) Which was and I believe still is benedictine (OSB) starting in the 600s ad. This one was a personal book.L2 lvl4 (...) WORDsearch, all the way through L10,
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Also Zwingli isn't in the Swiss Protestant collection... Seems obvious so I won't provide any proof, but you'll recall he was one of the reformers and was in the swiss guard.
L2 lvl4 (...) WORDsearch, all the way through L10,
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Also I was puzzled by the charismatic vs pentecostal collections.
Can one be charismatic and yet not pentecostal? (honest question, no offense intended). Seems like everyone in the pentecostal camp would be charismatic, but what differentiates a charismatic from a pentecostal in such a way that not all charismatics can be considered Pentecostals?EDIT:
Also I made a spread sheet to show what I'm about to suggest... But I would love to be able to list different theological perspecitves of individual authors as well... Are they dispensational & Reformed? Are they presbyterians that dunk, or Baptists that sprinkle? Do they hold the pre-wrath rapture view? What about their ecclesiology?
Certainly much of this can be gleaned from their denominational stance... But consider the baptists for a moment (because I am one, I can pick on them a little) - we are not so monolithic as people might think. The only things we have in common for sure are the BF&M. Maybe my church lets people dance, and your's doesn't. Maybe your baptist church believes in an a-millenial eschatological construct, where mine is pre-mil pre-wrath (or whatever). I think you get the idea. Would love to be able to see at a glance what position an author is going to take.
Click to enlarge. The denomination stats are from the collections created in this thread
- most of the numbers used were real... Except I don't have any data for the eschatology of the authors, nor for progressive dispensationalism, or covenant (any other positions out there?)L2 lvl4 (...) WORDsearch, all the way through L10,
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Can one be charismatic and yet not pentecostal?
I believe the largest Charismatic group today can be found within the Catholic Church.[;)]
Mac Pro (late 2013) OS 12.6.2
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Can one be charismatic and yet not pentecostal?
I think of charismatic as being a movement within a denomination while I think of Pentecostal as being a group of denominations. Perhaps this is because of the charismatic priests I know (Catholic & Episcopal).
I like your charts. One caught my attention because of the difference in how we use language. When I saw "interpretation of scripture" I expected, sola scriptural, confessional, experiential, reason, tradition ... (additive)
we are not so monolithic as people might think
This is true of a number of groups. Hopefully, people using Logos are in the habit of trying to think clearly and will take this into account.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Can one be charismatic and yet not pentecostal?
I think of charismatic as being a movement within a denomination while I think of Pentecostal as being a group of denominations. Perhaps this is because of the charismatic priests I know (Catholic & Episcopal).
I like your charts. One caught my attention because of the difference in how we use language. When I saw "interpretation of scripture" I expected, sola scriptural, confessional, experiential, reason, tradition ... (additive)
That's probably my protestant leanings coming out.
One would hope. I think that if people were thinking clearly entire traditions might not exist, but I digress.we are not so monolithic as people might think
This is true of a number of groups. Hopefully, people using Logos are in the habit of trying to think clearly and will take this into account.
L2 lvl4 (...) WORDsearch, all the way through L10,
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That's probably my protestant leanings coming out.
Probably. But somewhere in the last 2-3 years, I learned that Methodists use a quadrilateral: scripture, tradition, reason and experience - having added the experience to the Anglican 3 legged stool. And in the last 4-5 years, a Lutheran group put out a small book on confessional interpretation. I wish there were an easy way to track down some other major groups' practices.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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For us (southern baptists) we believe in general and special revelation (leaving my reformed leanings on the topic out for the moment) and when it comes to scripture we read the text first, then learn the various contexts (historical, geographical, political, religious, et al relevant). Then we study what others have said about the passage at hand - because if you are out there all alone on a topic its probably not because you're right. Not that you are necessarily wrong - but in thousands of years of history if you can't find someone to agree with you then you probably have made a leap of logic somewhere. Experience doesn't really enter in, and everything else is secondary to scripture. I'm not sure how many legs that gives us
. Its pretty much sola scriptura, but double check your self - if that makes sense.L2 lvl4 (...) WORDsearch, all the way through L10,
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Kenneth Keathley ought to be listed in the Southern Baptist denomination (note, click "K" to sort by last names that start with K and scroll down).
He has a book in Logos & Vyrso I believe. Also He is a Molinist (the topic of his book).Thanks, abondservant. I thought Kenneth Keathley already was marked as Southern Baptist. Please let me know if not.
There currently is no category for Molinism, If anyone provides me a sufficiently large list, preferably with evidence, then I could create one.
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Also Zwingli isn't in the Swiss Protestant collection... Seems obvious so I won't provide any proof, but you'll recall he was one of the reformers and was in the swiss guard.
Thanks. Swiss Protestant was a new category that I hadn't developed properly. I've now labelled anyone who was Reformed and Main Country: Switzerland as Swiss Protestant. Please let me know any corrections or additions to this.
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...
Also I made a spread sheet to show what I'm about to suggest... But I would love to be able to list different theological perspecitves of individual authors as well... Are they dispensational & Reformed? Are they presbyterians that dunk, or Baptists that sprinkle? Do they hold the pre-wrath rapture view? What about their ecclesiology?
...Some of this should be easier to achieve using the new filter facility. It allows you to search for Dispensational and Reformed for example by creating a collection rule that can be pasted into a Logos collection. There is no category for mode of baptism at present, such as dunking or sprinkling, only Infant or Believers Baptism, which is quite different. Some dunk babies and some sprinkle adults. Some denominations dunk some adults and sprinkle others. Finding evidence for individuals could be tough, but I'd be happy to add a suitably large category that had good supporting evidence. This goes for many of the other types of categories you suggest as well.
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Can one be charismatic and yet not pentecostal?
I think of charismatic as being a movement within a denomination while I think of Pentecostal as being a group of denominations. Perhaps this is because of the charismatic priests I know (Catholic & Episcopal)...
I think you're right, MJ. All Pentecostals are usually Charismatic by definition, but not all Charismatics are Pentecostal. They are spread across a wide variety of Denominations and most Streams.
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That's probably my protestant leanings coming out.
Probably. But somewhere in the last 2-3 years, I learned that Methodists use a quadrilateral: scripture, tradition, reason and experience - having added the experience to the Anglican 3 legged stool. And in the last 4-5 years, a Lutheran group put out a small book on confessional interpretation. I wish there were an easy way to track down some other major groups' practices.
Each aspect of the quadrilateral is debated, and many Anglicans talk about the quadrilateral as well now. The original three legs are often attributed to Hooker, and seen as being equal, though "his relationship to the Reformation and particularly one of its cardinal themes of sola scriptura continues to be a hotly contested topic." (Chapman, M. D. (2012). Anglican Theology (p. 103-5). London; New Delhi; New York; Sydney: Bloomsbury.)
E.g. Should Scripture be primary, with tradition and reason simply assisting interpretation, or should they be equal? Where does experience fit in? I don't think it would be easy to argue that there is only one Anglican view. Hooker's views are often claimed to be Evangelical by some and Anglo-Catholic by others. Chapman tries to present a more balanced view:
"it is the figure of Hooker who is credited with the creation of the distinctive emphasis of Anglican moderation, of formulating the carefully balanced three-legged stool of Scripture, Tradition and Reason as the sources of Anglican theology."
Chapman, M. D. (2012). Anglican Theology (p. 103-4). London; New Delhi; New York; Sydney: Bloomsbury.
"While Hooker did not fundamentally depart from the basic principles of the supremacy of Scripture, he nevertheless was clear that it was not self-authenticating"
Chapman, M. D. (2012). Anglican Theology (p. 116). London; New Delhi; New York; Sydney: Bloomsbury.
On interpreting Scripture more generally, I think this paragraph tries to do justice to how a number of different traditions use Scripture, before adding the authors' own view:
"Understanding Jesus’ kingdom theology enables interpreters to make good sense of his ethical demands. Interpreters have regularly puzzled over their stringency. Nowhere is this more obvious than in the Sermon on the Mount. Did Jesus seriously expect his followers to view hatred as murder, to view lust as adultery, never to retaliate when abused, and actually to love their enemies (Mt 5:21–48)? We have already noted the traditional Catholic response: only select disciples are expected to follow these more austere rules. Lutherans often viewed Jesus’ ethics as “law” (rather than “gospel”) meant to point out the hopelessness of our sinful condition and drive us to our knees in repentance and faith in Christ. Against both these views note that Jesus addressed his words to all his disciples, as well as to the crowds of would-be followers who flocked to hear him (Mt 5:1). Anabaptists frequently took these commands as seriously applying to public life and to all people on earth, so they renounced all violence and became pacifists. Tolstoy adopted a similar response on a personal level, as do many Mennonites and others today. But Jesus nowhere teaches that his kingdom principles should form the basis for civil law. Nineteenth-century liberals often preached a “social gospel” of human progress and moral evolution apart from the personal transformation of conversion to Christ, but twentieth-century worldwide warfare squelched much of their optimism. Existentialists see in Jesus’ teaching precedent for decisive calls to ethical action without viewing any of his teaching as absolute. Dispensationalists have traditionally reserved Jesus’ kingdom ethic for the millennial age and have not found it directly relevant for Christians now. But this requires a greater disjunction between Israel and the Church than Scripture allows. Jesus’ choice of twelve disciples, for example, almost certainly was deliberate—to match the twelve tribes of Israel and portray the community of his followers as the new locus of God’s saving activity.
None of these approaches, furthermore, does justice to the interpretive framework of Jesus’ inaugurated eschatology. Most of Jesus’ teachings apply to all believers in all situations, unless Scripture itself clearly imposes certain limitations. When Jesus concludes the section of the Sermon on the Mount alluded to above, he declares: “Be perfect [whole, mature; Greek teleios], therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect [whole, mature]” (Mt 5:48). This remains the standard or ideal of discipleship for all Christians. We will not attain wholeness in this life, but we can arrive at a measure of maturity. Jesus’ standards should be our constant goal (“already but not yet”). He intended his ethic for all believers, not just a select few. But inasmuch as his ethic is primarily for believers, we dare not impose it on those outside the faith. We cannot expect unbelievers to follow or appreciate God’s will, though (through common grace) we are sometimes pleasantly surprised when they do. We must not try to coerce an unregenerate world to conform to his standards, though surely believers ought to use all legal measures available to foster an ethical society."
Klein, W. W., Blomberg, C., & Hubbard, R. L. (2004). Introduction to Biblical Interpretation (pp. 409–410). Nashville, TN: Thomas Nelson.
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I think I've updated the spreadsheet to include all of the suggestions so far. As always please feel free to suggest corrections, additions, etc. However, this will likely be my last posting before June, as I have a busy month ahead. I've updated all of the Faithlife collections at: https://faithlife.com/logos-library-theology-denomination-tags/documents
Here's the latest copy of the spreadsheet:
4812.Denominations and Theology 30 April 2014.zip
Note: The new filter has been moved to cell BM1 to make room for new columns for Birth and Death Decades and Centuries, which should make filtering by birth and death easier. The button for the filter has gone. It now updates automatically as filters are added. Hopefully that's easier.
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Peace, Andrew! You do indeed labour very hard and very diligently! *smile* For Him! For His Church! For all of us! Thank you! I truly appreciate your efforts and your sharings; and I recognise that it's probably very difficult for you to keep up with all that has been "thrust upon you"!!! *smile*
Again! Thank You!
Philippians 4: 4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........
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Thank you Andrew! You have 760 members or followers of the faithlife group, so your work is greatly appreciated by many!!!!
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Hey, Logos! Attention, Bob Pritchett! *smile*
Have you also noticed that particular FaithLife Group? I guess you must have since you are a member of that particular group!
Incredible, isn't it?! 683 members in the Group! 77 followers! Must be one of the larger groups, eh?!
........ and! All of the work that Andrew and a few others are doing for this Logos Community! Praise God!
Incredible! And it's so helpful in the formation and usage of Logos Collections .......... and so helpful in helping us understand better the history and relationships of various denominational groupings .... *smile* Lots of surprises there also!
Perhaps one of these days he/they will receive a pat on the back and maybe even a "token" free book to show appreciation of their labours for us! I'd be glad to "donate" a few shekels but/however, the administration of such a great idea wouldn't work well over such a "diverse and widespread" demographic as Logos Bible Software users are ... *smile* oh, well!
great idea, but !
Blessings!
Philippians 4: 4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........
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He was not; at least not in my copy of the collection.Kenneth Keathley ought to be listed in the Southern Baptist denomination (note, click "K" to sort by last names that start with K and scroll down).
He has a book in Logos & Vyrso I believe. Also He is a Molinist (the topic of his book).Thanks, abondservant. I thought Kenneth Keathley already was marked as Southern Baptist. Please let me know if not.
There currently is no category for Molinism, If anyone provides me a sufficiently large list, preferably with evidence, then I could create one.
I'll see what I can do about a molinist list, but there are maybe only 5-6 authors that I'm aware of in Logos. Maybe a few more. we'll see.L2 lvl4 (...) WORDsearch, all the way through L10,
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Yes - again thank you Andrew!
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I was starting to see what new purchases had done to my unclassified list. Somehow my collections are not updating automatically - an issue I'll look into later. But I noticed that Catholics still look odd to me> I'm missing something in how you are looking at things. What I expected:
Denom. Stream: Catholic
Denominations: Latin, Syro-Malabar, Melkite, Maronite etc.
Subgroup: OFM, OP, SJ ...
This would match what I thought was the Anglican structure:
Denom. Stream: Anglican
Denominations: Church of England, Church of Ireland . . .
Subgroup: OFM (the most common Anglican order)
or the similar Lutheran structure:
Denom. Stream: Lutheran
Denominations: ELCA, WELS, LCMS ...
Subgroup: Franciscans, Holy Trinity, Order of Mary (sample Lutheran orders)
What am I missing?
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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