Official: Minimum Crossgrade and free engine download are coming!
Comments
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The best clarification so far. My current database is large and scholarly-oriented. However, I bought Original Languages 2 years ago and the current offer of upgrading to Bronze for almost the same price seems unreasonable Waiting patiently for Minimal Crossgrade. Thanks.
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Robert Mullen said:
Here comes the less positive aspect. ...
I feel a bit like yesterday's news in this process.
I'm very sorry about that. In the chaos of trying to hit a long-planned release date we didn't get to review the entire messaging / web experience as thoroughly as we should have. Many people on our team would have liked to have held things till we could have given a more thorough overview, but I made the call to go ahead even with the rough edges.
Now we're playing catch-up on smoothing the edges, clarifying the message, etc. (We found, for example, that a key page of feature descriptions was online, but not actually linked to, until a day into the process! http://www.logos.com/features )
I'm sorry about the chaos, and appreciate everyone's patience. I trust you'll find Logos 5 worth the wait, though, and that not too long from now it'll be available in a way that is fair and meets everyone's needs.
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In consideration of the Bible Sense Lexicon feature, having Logos 4 Platinum currently, would it be better for me to wait for the Crossgrade? (Would that feature be in it?) Or would it simply be better to purchase the Silver, assuming it won't be in crossgrade or silver? Just don't want to get the Silver, if the Crossgrade would include the feature while Silver does not.
Jason Saling
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I know that a date for the Crossgrade release has not been determined yet, I just hope that the Logos 5 upgrade sale prices are still here when the Crossgrade option becomes available so I can compare and see which would be best for me.
(This may have already been addressed - but there have been so many forum posts I can't keep up with them.)
Ron
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Bob Pritchett said:Kolen Cheung said:
one question: ... Do you mean in the future you will have a more conservative approach for the change of resources
There were several factors, including changing license terms / contracts with publishers, etc. I think there will be fewer changes in the resource configuration in the next round (a couple years from now?...) but there's no way to predict the future that far out, especially with the publishing industry changing so quickly right now.
Thanks. That makes me easier to convince my wife to buy Logos 5 upgrade. Well, I can tell her it is one of a kind upgrade that changed so drastically because of the new features and I promise her I won't be spending that much in the future...
Though it would still take some time for us to save the money. I wish I was notified before so I can anticipate that and save it before hand.
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Thank you - this is clear and helpful.
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Bob Pritchett said:
I trust you'll find Logos 5 worth the wait, though, and that not too long from now it'll be available in a way that is fair and meets everyone's needs.
I trust Bob and Logos.... they have always done right. I am looking forward to the minimum crossgrade. I am waiting till I see all my options. I will upgrade though..... hopefully soon (hint, hint [:)])
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Thanks Bob. This is really needed... the marketing just isn't clear and leads people to assume we have to spend a huge chunk of money.
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Very well said at each point, Nathanael.
I would have to say that this software upgrade rollout creates more questions than answers. It definitely puts Logos in the financial driver's seat and the loyal (highly invested) customers simply having to trust that the packages that are offered are a good deal.
I know that I am having a very hard time believing that a $687 upgrade price is a good deal for something that I just paid $1500 for six months ago.
I know there is new content. But I looked at each item in the new content list and while there are a few items of enduring value in there, most of it is fluff.
Bottom line is this. And I really hope that Logos is listening. I offer this in humility and with good will. This product rollout (not necessarily the product itself) seems more about getting people to spend huge sums of money than about getting a worthy product into the hands of ready users for a reasonable price.
I am reminded of Martin Luther's illustration of how a shoemaker glories God in his work. "… make a good shoe and sell it at a fair price."
It seems to me that there is a better way that Logos could simply make a good product and sell it for a good price.0 -
Jason
If I had just purchased L4 six months ago, I would understand the confusion. My suggestion to you is to wait until there is a cross grade in which you will either be able to update what you have to L5 for free or for a price that would be less than $100 to get the new data bases. That is what many of us are doing. We are simply waiting.
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David Housholder said:
If I purchase Silver at $400+ I will get most of the new databases, but apparently not the church history timeline (since the Gold upgrade specifically mentions it adds church history timeline). Starter and Bronze have fewer of the new databases included. In the description of the crossgrade option it sounds as though all the new databases are included at a cost likely to be under $100.
Would you clarify that?
The new Logos 5 Timeline feature is available starting at Bronze. From http://www.logos.com/basepackages: "Logos 5 Bronze comes with the essentials for studying the Bible by passage and topic, as well as digging into original languages. It includes the Timeline". The logos.com/upgrade comparison chart also shows Timeline starting in Bronze.
Where are you seeing that Gold "adds church history timeline"? (It sounds like that page is in error, and we can correct it if we know which one it is.)
The Minimal Crossgrade contents haven't been established yet, but as Bob said, "we expect it will contain all/most of the unique new data sets (Timeline, ...)". This will probably allow you to get the Timeline for under $100, but you won't get any of the new books in the Logos 5 Silver package; you'll have to decide if those resources are worth the upgrade price for you.
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Hi Bob!
Your post and another that explains why the engine only offering must wait. You have put me in my "place" and let me know exactly where I stand and the extent to which you appreciate my business and my customer loyalty to Logos. In just under 3 years I've spent $ 12,264.18 on Logos 4. That's on top of previous versions. My current orders for pre-pubs stands at $ 6,219.15 while my Community Pricing bids amount to $ 587. You have every spare cent I could afford over the last 3 years as I have been moving from a paper based library to an electronic one. What I have just heard you say is that I'm a less important customer to you because I don't have the capacity to upgrade right now. I feel insulted and devalued as a customer. I'm not asking to be given any priority as a [formerly] loyal customer. I'm only asking for equality of access. I hope your balancing act works out for you - that is, I hope for your sake that the money you take in through this marketing strategy more than makes up for the customers you will lose. Since money rather than loyal customers was the consideration in your strategy I just want you to know that I'm canceling the $6,806.15 worth of orders I have with you and won't be doing any more business with you.
Best regards,
David
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Bob, thank you for the clear and honest information about Logos 5 upgrades, God Bless You [:)]
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Sorry to be late to the party. I was a beta tester for Logs 4, but got no invitation to Logos 5. Wa wa wa! I really haven't been around here much lately anyway.
Is there a link to a page that shows what books you will get in addition to what you have if you switch from Gold L4 to Gold L5?
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Jeremy said:
Is there a link to a page that shows what books you will get in addition to what you have if you switch from Gold L4 to Gold L5?
Making Disciples! Logos Ecosystem = LogosMax on Microsoft Surface Pro 7 (Win11), Android app on tablet, FSB on iPhone & iPad mini, Proclaim (Proclaim Remote on Fire Tablet).
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Nathanael King said:
...
B. The line between features and resources is becoming increasingly blurry, and this is something that needs clarity brought to it. Especially considering that you probably can't expect your average user to understand the difference between a feature requiring a new data-set, a feature not requiring a new data-set, and a resource....
+1
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This whole new method of rolling out functionality and features in a delayed manner makes customers who have previously spent a lot of money but currently are not prepared to buy the newest offered bundle for hundreds of dollars, feel unappreciated. Why not release the update to everyone and then simply note that if you want to have data show up in your new timeline or other new resource dependent features you need to buy a bundle that includes it whether big or small?
Amazon which is a secular company does a much better job of placing a high value on customer satisfaction. Bezos has been very successful in noting that if you take really good care of customers you will build incredible loyalty and your business will thrive in the long run. Everyone I know who is a Logos user, whether in personal conversations, or online is not impressed with how this is all going down. I for one won't be recommending Logos to others like I once did with great enthusiasm.0 -
Bradley Grainger (Logos) said:David Housholder said:
If I purchase Silver at $400+ I will get most of the new databases, but apparently not the church history timeline (since the Gold upgrade specifically mentions it adds church history timeline). Starter and Bronze have fewer of the new databases included. In the description of the crossgrade option it sounds as though all the new databases are included at a cost likely to be under $100.
Would you clarify that?
The new Loos 5 Timeline feature is available starting at Bronze. From http://www.logos.com/basepackages: "Logos 5 Bronze comes with the essentials for studying the Bible by passage and topic, as well as digging into original languages. It includes the Timeline". The logos.com/upgrade comparison chart also shows Timeline starting in Bronze.
Where are you seeing that Gold "adds church history timeline"? (It sounds like that page is in error, and we can correct it if we know which one it is.)
If you go to www.logos.com/upgrade and click on the Gold package you will see that the church history timeline is mentioned as a feature. Since the lower packages simply say "timeline" it looks as though the post NT timeline doesn't appear in less than a gold upgrade.
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Jason Hauser said:
Why not release the update to everyone and then simply note that if you want to have data show up in your new timeline or other new resource dependent features you need to buy a bundle that includes it whether big or small?
When Logos released the Perseus collection, they had to stagger downloads for users due to demands upon the servers. It's not as simple as just letting everyone at it all at once. If you were visiting the website the last several days, you know that Logos had difficulties keeping everything up and running… WIth that in mind, why shouldn't those who are paying for updated resources get first dibs? Again, Logos will be providing the engine for free once the demand has settled down a bit.
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David Housholder said:
If you go to www.logos.com/upgrade and click on the Gold package you will see that the church history timeline is mentioned as a feature. Since the lower packages simply say "timeline" it looks as though the post NT timeline doesn't appear in less than a gold upgrade.
I understand now; thanks.
These are exactly the same feature, just worded differently in the popups. I'll pass this feedback about inconsistent wording along to the marketing team.
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Thanks Bob. I was concerned about the cost of the upgrade and since I am new to LOGOS (less than a month) I was afraid that you were pulling a Microsoft or an Apple on us.
I have many years of bi-vocational experience in the computer industry, and I know that it is expensive to maintain and upgrade a software package. So thank you for explaining what is going on. I will try to be patient as I wait for the crossgrade package to come along.
I will probably upgrade to gold as soon as I pay off my LOGOS 4 bill, in about 10 or 11 months. I hope I can get a good deal then.
Thank You,
Robert Tague
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I understand your point. But the issue is somewhat larger than that. As in biblical interpretation context, context, context is all important. Logos needs to stop and ask why some loyal Logos customers are not able to upgrade at this point. There are many of us who are [or rather, were] committed to building our libraries electronically with Logos and have been investing all we could spare on a monthly basis. We can't make the investment now precisely because Logos already has all our discretionary income. And precisely because we have been regular monthly purchasers of Logos products - the backbone of Logos' cash flow [i.e. the backbone of Logos' business which enabled them to keep the development going], we are now devalued as customers.
There is another aspect to this as well. Once the initial roll out is completed Logos will raise the price of its offer to us. After all their offer to us states a price that is "today only"! So not only do we backbone customers get devalued in the new launch we get shafted on price later.
I've raised a similar issue before without response from Logos. When they cluster the release dates of many pre-pubs around the same time we're often forced to choose between resources we really want and make a priority choice on the basis of the resource we consider most valuable to us at that moment. I suggested that in the case where this happens that Logos hold the pre-pub price open for a period for the customers who through their pre-pub order enabled the product to get to production in the first place. But I received no response. I've been unable to purchase several resources [all collections or sets] I really wanted because of this.
- David
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I absolutely agree, Jason. Bob talks about the need to recover the costs of developing the software. What he is forgetting is that many of us are the backbone of Logos' cash flow, spending significant money EVERY MONTH in his company thus enabling him to develop the upgrades. Without us he wouldn't have an upgrade to offer! The reason many of us loyal customers can't upgrade at this time is because of our investment with his company. In devaluing us at the launch time in favour of many that will turn out to be once off and occasional customers is risking cutting off the life blood of his company - cash flow.
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And once again, it caused more work in the long run than it would have to taken care of the rough edges before the release. Not only do you still have to smooth the same rough edges, you have to do some damage control. In another post, you spoke of the low profit margin Logos has for this year. Question, how much does doing damage control cut into your profit margins?Bob Pritchett said:I made the call to go ahead even with the rough edges.
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Thanks Bob for the explanation. I have been a user long enough that I trust the heart of the company. I was a little taken aback when I saw my upgrade price for platinum to platinum. But I also believe that Logos is focused on helping people get deep into the word of God. I love what you're doing keep up the great work!
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Robert Tague said:
I will probably upgrade to gold as soon as I pay off my LOGOS 4 bill, in about 10 or 11 months. I hope I can get a good deal then.
When you stick around Logos long enough (and visit the forums at least somewhat regularly), you will discover seasonal discounts. Logos isn't obligated, of course, to offer the same kinds of sales each year… but they probably will. There are generally big sales related to Black Friday / Christmas. There is also another large sale called "March Madness." This year, with the introduction of new base packages, things might be a bit different.
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Bob,
Thank you for taking a little time to explain the market positioning of the Logos 5 launch. Like many, I found the initial messaging confusing and seemingly designed to "force" me to buy resources that I may not want. After all, many of us are rather happy with our current library and with the confusion surrounding the messaging, there is little wonder that many of us are frustrated. In these economic times who could blame us?
Having said that, some diligent research has revealed just how tremendous the value contained in each of the new packages is. Nicely done! I am planning on upgrading this afternoon after my family and I return home from church. Perhaps in the future a bit more attention to the messaging might avoid this confusion. Maybe an approach similar to the way FaithLife was rolled out might prove helpful. Just my two cents! Keep up the great work!
In His service,
Chris
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Could someone explain what the difference is between crossgrading my L4 Scholar's Library vs upgrading to the L5 Starter package?
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I'm sure this is answered elsewhere, and I'm sorry about the redundancy, but one can only search and look so long before one posts: Will the current discounts still be available when these other options are offered? I would like to compare free/cheap with unfree/uncheap things.
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Scott Stackelhouse said:
Could someone explain what the difference is between crossgrading my L4 Scholar's Library vs upgrading to the L5 Starter package?
We have to wait and see what is included with the cross-grade. If I had to take a guess, the cross-grade will not have any books, just the databases, and the starter package has some books and some databases.
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