Logos Mobile Education diploma & certificates
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Super.Tramp said:
I have taken this opportunity to champion the idea of academic pricing on Logos resource purchases for enrollees in mEd. It would be an in-house decision that would not involve extra work. Critics would have no basis to object and many more people would enrol.
Academic pricing would obviously be a great incentive, but it would cost Logos too much money. You can jump on the mEd bandwagon for just $179 - and that may come down later. That's far too low a price point to offer the substantial discounting that academic would give.
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Mark Barnes said:
Academic pricing would obviously be a great incentive, but it would cost Logos too much money. You can jump on the mEd bandwagon for just $179 - and that may come down later. That's far too low a price point to offer the substantial discounting that academic would give.
Right now I can enrol in one of many distance education programs that already qualify for Logos academic pricing. (and I can do it for less than $179)
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Super.Tramp said:
Right now I can enrol in one of many distance education programs that already qualify for Logos academic pricing. (and I can do it for less than $179)
To qualify for academic pricing, you have to be on a degree accredited course taking at least three credits. Can you really do that for less that $179?
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Mark Barnes said:
o qualify for academic pricing, you have to be on a degree accredited course taking at least three credits. Can you really do that for less that $179?
Yes. I enrolled for a three hour course at Tyndale Theological Seminary. My tuition was $0 due to a scholarship. I only had to buy my books and pay fees. I know of a couple more options for similar cost. (Gordon-Conwell comes to mind.)
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Robert Tague said:
DOC wrote: On these grounds I don't understand why people who bought AM Moody feel it is $800 wasted....
Perhaps I can help you understand my point, even if you don't agree.
1. Yes I do still have access to all the materials from the AM Moody course. However, I also have a substantial library (printed and digital) and the AM material is, by comparison, inferior to most of the rest of my library. It definitely was not worth the $800 purchase price.
2. The implied contract/agreement when I purchased the AM library was that Moody Institute would provide the grading and record keeping and certificates that go with the course. Which in my opinion, and I suspect was the opinion of many of the others who purchased the material, is what made it worth the purchase price. They broke that contract/agreement.
3. One does not have to live in the "third world" to be poor, and cut off from adequate resources. I have lived and ministered in a rural, low income region for my entire career. I have attempted to be a good steward of the resources (financial and otherwise) that the Lord has provided, including educational resources and opportunities. In my opinion, the Moody AM material was not good stewardship.
i'm sorry but still don't get why one would spend $800 solely on the basis of getting a non-accredited certificate, I understand it even less when you say the material in the course is inferior to the rest your library. If you say the material is sub-standard to the rest of your library then how do you say it was worth $800 to have Moody maintain a record that you had passed a bunch of unsupervised multiple-choices quizzes?
I'm not defending Moody's actions but we have no knowledge of what led to the breakdown relate business relationship between Moody & Logos. For all we know it could of been Logos who said the no longer wanted to distribute the AM Moody courseware because of their plans to introduce m.ED , and that was the trigger for Moody to re-asses their business relationship. I have no idea if there is any truth in that, just throwing out the thought that there may be more to Moody decision than any of us customers will ever know.
i think your last comment sums up the situation. In hindsight you see your purchase of AM Moody Courseware was not a good one in terms of stewardship. Is it all Moody's fault, or what about Logos? ultimately you made the choice because you wanted to be able to print a certificate. I know and understand what it is to feel you have made a bad purchasing choice. And I get that you did not know at the time the program would end - moody should have given a longer period for users who had purchased the course to submit results and get a certificate.
And I do know what it is to be poor in the first world - as a child my family once sat down to the dinner table and said grace despite the fact their was not a crumb of food in the house. Having said grace the doorbell rang and it was a non-Christian neighbor. My parents had told no one of the situation yet God worked through this lady in that situation to supply our needs. In my adult life I have been through a couple periods of extended unemployment, but God has always been gracious even when i couldn't see past myself to trust Him. So apologies if I seem harsh in what I have said. I do understand your disappointment just not why you would place so much value on the 'certificate'.
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You are right. We have no idea why Moody and Logos parted ways but I doubt it had anything to do with Mobile Education. Otherwise Logos would not have started a relationship with Berean School of the BibleDisciple of Christ (doc) said:we have no knowledge of what led to the breakdown relate business relationship between Moody & Logos. For all we know it could of been Logos who said the no longer wanted to distribute the AM Moody courseware because of their plans to introduce m.ED , and that was the trigger for Moody to re-asses their business relationship. I have no idea if there is any truth in that
.That is an unfair characterization of the many users who bought the AM Moody courseware. If Moody thought everyone was just doing it for a certificate they would not have added grading services to the deal. If Moody had not offered grading services many would have decided against enrolling in AM Moody.We, (yes, I spent $800 on it too), believed we were getting grading services. How would everyone feel if the Mobile Education transcripts never integrated with the other library resources? Upset, no? We just want what was promised. That includes grading and a certificate.Disciple of Christ (doc) said:ultimately you made the choice because you wanted to be able to print a certificate.
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Thank you Super.Tramp for your input and defense. I could not have given a better response. I would like to add that Certificates are of value beyond a personal ego boost. As a Bi-vocational pastor I worked in the computer and banking automation industry for many years. The computer industry has for years relied heavily on certifications and printed certificates that were not accredited by any university. When Microsoft and APlus and others started handing out completion certificates, many in the industry saw no value in them. Yet one would, even today, find it very hard to find employment in the industry without those pieces of paper.
I would like to thank all of you for your participation in this forum thread, but I think I will drop out of the discussion for now, since it seems to be going nowhere, may even be agitating some of us. I had hoped that one or more of the Logos employees would have gotten involved in this discussion, especially since it was one of them (Aaron Linne) who suggested that we take this discussion to its own thread.
I will continue to monitor this thread for progress, and I look forward to seeing everyone's input on other forum threads.
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Super.Tramp said:Randy W. Sims said:
Here's a screen cast of a basic unit test. Multiple choice. Graded by the application.
Thank you, Randy. This was very helpful.
Helpful...and HIGHLY UNETHICAL. Speaking as an educator, this is akin to sneaking into the teacher's class and taking a copy of the test, or worse, taking a copy of the test and putting it online. Actually, it is exactly like the latter.
I realize that this wasn't done with malicious intent, but I am still flabbergasted that you would consider posting not just the questions (which is way over the line), but the answers as well!
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Super.Tramp said:
You are right. We have no idea why Moody and Logos parted ways but I doubt it had anything to do with Mobile Education. Otherwise Logos would not have started a relationship with Berean School of the BibleDisciple of Christ (doc) said:we have no knowledge of what led to the breakdown relate business relationship between Moody & Logos. For all we know it could of been Logos who said the no longer wanted to distribute the AM Moody courseware because of their plans to introduce m.ED , and that was the trigger for Moody to re-asses their business relationship. I have no idea if there is any truth in that
.That is an unfair characterization of the many users who bought the AM Moody courseware. If Moody thought everyone was just doing it for a certificate they would not have added grading services to the deal. If Moody had not offered grading services many would have decided against enrolling in AM Moody.We, (yes, I spent $800 on it too), believed we were getting grading services. How would everyone feel if the Mobile Education transcripts never integrated with the other library resources? Upset, no? We just want what was promised. That includes grading and a certificate.Disciple of Christ (doc) said:ultimately you made the choice because you wanted to be able to print a certificate.
I am not sure of what you are meaning by Moody offering a grading service. The software 'graded' your quiz. Moody simply kept a record of which courses you had completed and when all the right courses were marked as completed, their web service directed you to a page that generated the appropriate certificate. If you wanted the to print and mail you a copy, you had to pay for that service. It was not part of the money you paid. In fact the Moody system did not even maintain whether you got 100% or 60%. If you did not pass Logos did not show you a link to submit anything to Moody. And from the link that did take you to Moody to submit you a completed a unit all it was was a code to alert the system you had completed that particular unit. Maybe you can explain what grading they were offering because I am not seeing them offering any such service - all I saw them offering was maintenance of a checklist.
I'm not sure either how I have characterized anyone, and certainly did not intended to do so. You yourself and others said getting the certificate was part of your decision to purchase the course. I was simply reflecting back that fact and my lack of understanding why the certificate would be such a driving factor in deciding to purchase. I never intended my comments to be about anyone's character. Unfortunately we are at such opposite ends of the value we place on the certificate. For me doing these courses is to grow my understanding of the scriptures and to be able to handle them moe accurately. And i am sure something along those lines is at the heart of your intent also. My apologies if I inadvertently characterized anyone in a negative manner.
I do understand though your disappointment at not getting what you believe was on offer when you made the purchase and am not sure how that can be rectified - as I said in previous post Moody should have kept the service running longer than they actually did.
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David Paul said:Super.Tramp said:Randy W. Sims said:
Here's a screen cast of a basic unit test. Multiple choice. Graded by the application.
Thank you, Randy. This was very helpful.
Helpful...and HIGHLY UNETHICAL. Speaking as an educator, this is akin to sneaking into the teacher's class and taking a copy of the test, or worse, taking a copy of the test and putting it online. Actually, it is exactly like the latter.
I realize that this wasn't done with malicious intent, but I am still flabbergasted that you would consider posting not just the questions (which is way over the line), but the answers as well!
I'm sorry, David, but help me understand how is this unethical? This test looks like just a self-guided test that is really part of a resource. The user can take it as many times as he wants. There is no real grade handed out, right? It seems its purpose is only to show the user where he is lacking, not to prove to someone else that he knows the material. This thread is requesting something beyond that, which I think would require more stringent testing structures that Logos doesn't have in place.
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I sincerely hope I did not cause anyone to have anxiety and angst over Logos Mobile Education or AM Moody for that matter. What I have discovered from this thread is certificates and diplomas matter to some people while others really don'r care about them. That is great to know. We don't have to justify our preferences.
MJ reminded us that Logos did not promise us diplomas. Todd correctly observed Logos really does not have mechanisms in place to handle interactive testing and transcript services. It is good to keep in mind what is promised and what is not. Our expectations should be guided by that knowledge.
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!!! NOTICE !!!
It has come to my attention some readers think I have requested or hinted at a lower price for Logos Mobile Education courses. Let me be clear: The price will go up, not down, very soon. If you want to get in on this, do it now Call a salesperson if you need help. If you are unsure you can give it a try for 30 days..
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Todd Phillips said:David Paul said:Super.Tramp said:Randy W. Sims said:
Here's a screen cast of a basic unit test. Multiple choice. Graded by the application.
Thank you, Randy. This was very helpful.
Helpful...and HIGHLY UNETHICAL. Speaking as an educator, this is akin to sneaking into the teacher's class and taking a copy of the test, or worse, taking a copy of the test and putting it online. Actually, it is exactly like the latter.
I realize that this wasn't done with malicious intent, but I am still flabbergasted that you would consider posting not just the questions (which is way over the line), but the answers as well!
I'm sorry, David, but help me understand how is this unethical? This test looks like just a self-guided test that is really part of a resource. The user can take it as many times as he wants. There is no real grade handed out, right? It seems its purpose is only to show the user where he is lacking, not to prove to someone else that he knows the material. This thread is requesting something beyond that, which I think would require more stringent testing structures that Logos doesn't have in place.
You are correct Todd. It is simply a self guided multiple choice quiz. This is exactly what AM Moody offered hence my personal view the certificate offered by them was worthless. If they offered true certification like the Microsoft Certification Program (of which i have completed a few) I would understand why people would have purchased the AM Moody courseware for the certificate in that situation.
I am not against a genuine certificate being offered if the testing undertaken was done properly under true exam conditions. I just don't agree with the value of a certificate on the basis of self-check quizzes. And if m.Ed offered the kind of certificates that AM Moody offered I think it would devalue m.Ed. the material m.Ed offers is at a much higher level of quality and content. AM Moody was basically a discipleship correspondence course in terms of the level of materials it offered IMHO.
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Disciple of Christ (doc) said:
my personal view the certificate offered by them was worthles
I am perfectly fine with you holding that opinion. Just as I am with others thinking there is some added value to having them. Moody thought they had some value or they would not have offered them in the first place.
Regardless of what each person's opinion is, I thank everyone for posting.
Off-Topic: Today my 9th grand-child was born. [<:o)]
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I wanted to say thanks to everyone here for I think has been very valuable conversation. It is very important to us to know what your expectations and needs are when it comes to education and how we can best serve you.
I'm very excited about the future of Mobile Ed, as we have some amazing courses with stellar professors lined up. The most important thing to me is that we are creating valuable resources that you can dive into and learn from.
Thank you all for the incredibly valuable conversation here... there's lots to consider!
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Todd Phillips said:David Paul said:Super.Tramp said:Randy W. Sims said:
Here's a screen cast of a basic unit test. Multiple choice. Graded by the application.
Thank you, Randy. This was very helpful.
Helpful...and HIGHLY UNETHICAL. Speaking as an educator, this is akin to sneaking into the teacher's class and taking a copy of the test, or worse, taking a copy of the test and putting it online. Actually, it is exactly like the latter.
I realize that this wasn't done with malicious intent, but I am still flabbergasted that you would consider posting not just the questions (which is way over the line), but the answers as well!
I'm sorry, David, but help me understand how is this unethical? This test looks like just a self-guided test that is really part of a resource. The user can take it as many times as he wants. There is no real grade handed out, right? It seems its purpose is only to show the user where he is lacking, not to prove to someone else that he knows the material. This thread is requesting something beyond that, which I think would require more stringent testing structures that Logos doesn't have in place.
Well, that is kind of my point. I recognize that this particular case isn't a "controlled" situation. I was simply pointing out that in light of the subject matter of the thread--and as a general rule of thumb--sharing test data is considered a breach of protocol. Even in lesser contexts, giving away the ending is considered bad form, as the English say.
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David Paul said:
sharing test data is considered a breach of protocol
I was glad Randy shared the screencast. It helped me determine if my sight difficulties would be a problem. (Don't worry. I didn't copy down anything.) I see nothing wrong with posting the screencast precisely because there is no certificate or diploma involved. [:D]
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Aaron Linne said:
Thank you all for the incredibly valuable conversation here... there's lots to consider!
Thank you for suggesting the discussion.
May I ask again, but with better clarification, is it possible for enrollees in Mobile Ed. to purchase Logos resources at academic pricing?
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Super.Tramp said:Disciple of Christ (doc) said:
my personal view the certificate offered by them was worthles
I am perfectly fine with you holding that opinion. Just as I am with others thinking there is some added value to having them. Moody thought they had some value or they would not have offered them in the first place.
Regardless of what each person's opinion is, I thank everyone for posting.
Off-Topic: Today my 9th grand-child was born.
Congratulations. That's wonderful news.
And apologies if in giving my opinion I was showing disrespect to others opinion. Sometimes I beat my drum a little to hard and loud.
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Super.Tramp said:
is it possible for enrollees in Mobile Ed. to purchase Logos resources at academic pricing?
We have not announced any plans regarding academic pricing for Mobile Ed. The best price is always going to be the pre-pub price.
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Disciple of Christ (doc) said:
And apologies if in giving my opinion I was showing disrespect to others opinion.
You did just fine. Everybody in this thread was pretty good. We just have passionate views.
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Aaron Linne said:Super.Tramp said:
is it possible for enrollees in Mobile Ed. to purchase Logos resources at academic pricing?
We have not announced any plans regarding academic pricing for Mobile Ed. The best price is always going to be the pre-pub price.
I am sorry I am not being clear. Let me try again.
Academic pricing is a privilege Logos extends to users who are enrolled in qualifying programs at approved institutions. All I am asking is can Logos please extend that privilege to people who have purchased the mEd Foundations Bundle?
If Logos did so I would be able to purchase the Baker Illustrated Reference Collection for a discounted price. I am concerned with buying resources that have already gone live and shipped. Have I made my point clear enough this time?
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Super.Tramp said:
[Academic pricing is a privilege Logos extends to users who are enrolled in qualifying programs at approved institutions. All I am asking is can Logos please extend that privilege to people who have purchased the mEd Foundations Bundle?
Ah! Sorry, I understand what you are asking now. To clarify, purchasing a Mobile Ed course does not qualify you for academic pricing.
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Aaron Linne said:
Ah! Sorry, I understand what you are asking now. To clarify, purchasing a Mobile Ed course does not qualify you for academic pricing.
But wouldn't it be nice?[:P]
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Super.Tramp said:
But wouldn't it be nice?
Agree!!! At a minimum, books mentioned in the Required Reading and See Also should be deeply discounted, [:)].
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Super.Tramp said:Aaron Linne said:
Ah! Sorry, I understand what you are asking now. To clarify, purchasing a Mobile Ed course does not qualify you for academic pricing.
But wouldn't it be nice?
Of course it would be nice but I have no expectation of Logos offering this to m.ED purchasers who do not already qualify for academic pricing. We live in a society that expects special privileges all of the time because they belong to this group or that, or have experienced done x or y in their life.
Logos is a business. I expect them to make good business decisions. What I think might be worth exploring is putting together dynamically priced bundles that require all the recommended an required resources for each of the packages available. And at the time of purchase of m.Ed you are time limited gift certificate that gives you an extra 10%off the dynamically priced bundle that matches the m.Ed program you purchased. That I think would drive extra sales for Logos and be a win for the customer.
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Disciple of Christ (doc) said:
Of course it would be nice but I have no expectation of Logos offering this to m.ED purchasers who do not already qualify for academic pricing. We live in a society that expects special privileges all of the time because they belong to this group or that, or have experienced done x or y in their life.
You are not very familiar with the academic pricing program, are you? If you will take a look at the list of schools and program options you will discover many unaccredited schools and many "certificate" programs do qualify for academic discount pricing. It is not a far stretch of the imagination to add mEd to that list As it stands now, a person could take the cost of the mEd courses and apply them to an "approved" school on the list and qualify for academic pricing for a year or more. I just think it is in Logos' interest to encourage the student to stay "in-house."
And for the "special privileges"; Logos created the groups and bestowed those privileges.
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Super.Tramp said:
"certificate" programs do qualify for academic discount pricing
Whilst unaccredited colleges can qualify for the programme, students must be seeking a degree to qualify. Certificate programs do not qualify.
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Mark Barnes said:
Whilst unaccredited colleges can qualify for the programme, students must be seeking a degree to qualify. Certificate programs do not qualify.
AM Moody was a qualifying certificate programme. There are other certificate schools listed are there not?
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Super.Tramp said:
AM Moody was a qualifying certificate programme. There are other certificate schools listed are there not?
You can't see a list of the schools any more (although there is this). They've tightened up in the last three or four years, to add this degree-requirement, and to ensure staff were full-time (adjuncts like me used to qualify as staff, but that stopped in about 2010, I think).
This link I gave you above does include some schools who do not appear to award degrees. I think I'm right in saying that students at schools that require Logos to be purchased (or include it in their fees) to get an academic discount. I don't know whether that's a full discount though (there are different levels of student discount).
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