Why is this book offered through Faithlife?
Expensive too! It doesn't indicate explicitly, but it appears to be a Research Edition resource. Perhaps, they'll go so far as to make it a FBOM at some point.
Faithlife has an academic textbook business. It appears that this is being offered via that store. (Noet)
The author, an academic sociologist, has also written Conditionally Accepted: Christians' Perspectives on Sexuality and Gay and Lesbian Civil Rights, so is clearly an expert on the intersection of religion and sexuality. There's a whole chapter in this book called "Losing My Religion" (sadly, often a result when people come out as trans, because of how the church treats them). The southeastern United States is known for its conservative Christianity, and it could be interesting to some Logos users to hear the personal experiences of these 51 trans men living in that culture, in light of gender and sexuality being a lively topic of debate all across the Christian spectrum.
Anyway, Faithlife carrying a book in its stores does not imply that they agree with its content. But if it has some bearing on the study of the Bible or Christianity or even wider literary culture, they'll carry it. I wouldn't expect to see them carrying a mathematics textbook, but a sociology book, yes.
I would expect there to be a need for it among counselors. One needn't agree with a book in order to find it essential. If Logos refused to carry useful books because they might offend some portion of their market, they would soon have no market.
I'm glad to see the support from heavy hitters. I demurred in coming out as approving as in similar circumstances it started a maelstrom. As a counselor I agree with MJ and Rosie gives an even handed cover. We needn't pale from controversy. Critical Race Theory anyone?
I am of dissenting opinion which I am sure will be equally well respected. I provide counseling and am not offended. I also find benefit in the book no longer being offered for sale.
the book no longer being offered for sale.
I think the book somehow ended up in the wrong store (actually I suspected this from reading the OP). Publisher Lexington is found with other resources on the "general" eBook store formerly known as Noet eBooks rather than the "Christian" eBook store formerly known as "Vyrso". So for those who want it in the Logos ecosystem, there's a chance it may come back there.
Beloved, you're a heavy hitter too. I like to think you took Matthew's place, when he passed on. I always enjoy your beliefs.
I've noticed lately a lot of stuff from general.ebooks.faithlife.com showing up on ebooks.faithlife.com. I think it would be better if the general books were not mixed in with the Christian books. It may have happened by accident or be a well-intentioned but not so well thought out sales strategy. Remaining ebooks.noet.com to general.ebooks.faithlife.com not doubt was done for practical and / or financial reasons of having to maintain another domain name but I think was a bad move in it blurred the line between Logos attempt to offer books to a general academic audience and to their mainline Christian audience.
If it's in the appropriate sales channel and brings about cultural / social awareness, whether you agree with that cultural / social group of people I am fine with books like this being offered for those who work in counselling / ministry roles in these areas. I don't believe cancel culture is the appropriate response and find it disappointing FL appears to have over-reacted in this situation. They should really add back Dracula too to the general / academic site. This is a well know piece of period literature and there are other books on the site centered around this concept so why remove the original piece of literature while allowing spin-off books to be on the site, its inconsistent and shows it was a reactionary move rather than a well thought out move. Cancel culture was not appropriate in that instance either, just make sure the titles that some people seem to get offended by are available on the appropriate sales channel only and let's deal with the bigger problems in our own lives, families, and communities.
The OP was correct for calling out this as inappropriate to be on the Christian e-book site. But leave it on the general academic site in this instance. I called out a sexually explicit title that once appeared in error on the Vyrso site, and it was pre- Noet days but would in that instance not have even been appropriate for that site as it was not academic in any way.
Why is this book offered through Faithlife? Trans Men in the South: Becoming Men by Baker A. Rogers Publisher: Lexington Books , 2020 ISBN: 9781793600349 https://ebooks.faithlife.com/product/188987/trans-men-in-the-south-becoming-men Edit: (Came up while doing a search on "Rogers").
by Baker A. Rogers Publisher: Lexington Books , 2020 ISBN: 9781793600349 https://ebooks.faithlife.com/product/188987/trans-men-in-the-south-becoming-men Edit: (Came up while doing a search on "Rogers").
The book does not appear to be available anymore.
Why is this book offered through Faithlif
Hi ET:
In a world where yesteryear's mental institution commitment writs can be cut and pasted into today's successful doctoral theses, I guess we shouldn't be surprised at anything.
Which makes me sad. I'm uncomfortable supporting a company that lets the beliefs of one group of users dictate what all users can buy, especially when that company is intentionally international.
The book does not appear to be available anymore. Which makes me sad. I'm uncomfortable supporting a company that lets the beliefs of one group of users dictate what all users can buy, especially when that company is intentionally international.
Last year Amazon stopped selling certain books dealing with gender issues based on the viewpoints expressed. All companies make product decisions based on the reaction they anticipate from their customer base and the brand image they want to project. We may agree or disagree with the decision in any particular instance, but this is not something unique to FaithLife.
the book no longer being offered for sale. I think the book somehow ended up in the wrong store (actually I suspected this from reading the OP). Publisher Lexington is found with other resources on the "general" eBook store formerly known as Noet eBooks rather than the "Christian" eBook store formerly known as "Vyrso". So for those who want it in the Logos ecosystem, there's a chance it may come back there.
It's not in the general ebook store either.
I believe the process for pulling new ebooks into the store is automated, and perhaps FL looked at the title after seeing the dissent on this thread and decided to pull it. Or maybe it disappeared for some other reason. Maybe the ebook didn't meet their quality control standards.Remember the debate about Faithlife (then called Logos) carrying Dracula, anyone?
Dracula Comes to Our Local Bible?
It was pulled from the Noet store after customer outcry, but then was restored later.
Dracula is back in Logos!!!!
Remember the debate about Faithlife (then called Logos) carrying Dracula, anyone? Dracula Comes to Our Local Bible? It was pulled from the Noet store after customer outcry, but then was restored later. Dracula is back in Logos!!!!
Remember the debate about Faithlife (then called Logos) carrying Dracula, anyone?
I remember it very clearly. I was lucky enough to grab it the second time around.
One needn't agree with a book in order to find it essential.
I completely agree. It's been my experience that I gain a better understanding of viewpoints different than mine by reading authors who disagree with me.
Of course we remember if we were around then and it is gone again Rosie. But you can get….
Apparently we can’t be discerning enough to realise by offering Dracula that FL is not promoting it as fitting in with Christian values or belief but we can with these other titles. Search on Vampires, Witches etc and you’ll find a whole lot more titles. This shows titles are removed not because of concern about brand or image.
I didn’t see much dissent on this title only a question as to why is it there and then with a blink of an eye it was gone from the general catalogue. I wonder if now if titles I have pointed out will disappear.
I am of dissenting opinion which I am sure will be equally well respected. …I also find benefit in the book no longer being offered for sale.
Amen!
I am of dissenting opinion which I am sure will be equally well respected. …I also find benefit in the book no longer being offered for sale. Amen!
I understand the dissenting opinion, but I'm baffled as to what benefit this provides you.
To me, I don't think it belongs in a Christian environment. I also would not expect Faithlife to offer pornographic options for those who wish to study it to understand it, or to be informed about it.
To me, Bible software is an instrument used in Christian service, and we who serve in the Lord's house are instructed to discern between the clean and unclean (Leviticus 10:10); and to "not touch the unclean thing" (Isaiah 52:11); and to "not be unequally yoked with unbelievers, for what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness" (2 Corinthians 6:14).
To me, a book that is based on "queer methodology", arises from a spirit of lawlessness (Romans 1:26-27), and does belong along side of those instruments used to serve in the Lord's house. Those type of books should be frowned upon (Romans 1:32). That is, if we want to serve God, with His anointing (Hebrews 1:9).
Thank you for your explanation MWW. I think I understand your point of view and why we differ.
I think I understand your point of view and why we differ.
FL has a curious role. Christians are quite happy to trash other Christians, on their sin-ification rules. So, FL has to tip-toe thru which sins are ok ... and which aren't .... depending. And in true Logosian tradition, there's resources that discuss the trashing from the early days. Origen got his.
Thank you for your various responses. My further thoughts after reading your responses and the “Logos Publishing Philosophy”.
https://www.logos.com/publishing-philosophy?webSyncID=c76b6d35-b7a5-54e5-509d-24cd3ed02569&sessionGUID=5a0721ce-c0d5-659a-719b-446b41810574
Please note that I did not ask Faithlife to remove it (which they have apparently done) – just inquired as to why this book was offered through Faithlife.
The simple answer(s) might very well have been: if we offer one item from a publisher’s catalog (or this publisher’s catalog), our agreement requires us to offer every item in their catalog, or, we used to offer a general e-book service, and this listing is a legacy of that service.
For the record, Faithlife’s response to me was just a (broken) link to their publishing philosophy. However, once I knew such a thing may exist, I was able to find it on the website.
Lexington Books has a publishing partnership with Fortress Press (Fortress Academic), which “publishes thoughtful, focused, critical scholarship in biblical studies and Christian history, theology, and ethics,” and Lexington has several series in Religion as part of their catalog. However, this book is not a part of any of these series focused on religious issues.
https://rowman.com/Page/Fortress
https://rowman.com/isbn/9781793600349
The TOC for this book lists one chapter (Chapter 5: Losing My Religion) addressing religious issues, but it is certainly not the focus of the book.
Per the Logos Publishing Philosophy:
“Logos offers a Bible Library. If the book references the Bible, is related to the Bible, talks about the Bible, or is of use to people who study the Bible, it fits in our library.”
Those are broad parameters, and reasonable for an academic Christian library. I can see plenty of reasons (and mostly have no objections) to a Christian academic having access in their primary electronic library (i.e., Logos) to works by Marx, Freud, Darwin, Dawkins, the “Jesus Seminar”, or similar items of an “intellectual” nature.
However, this book, which may or may not be a seminal work in this field, was not offered through Logos, but through Faithlife.
Some statements from the Faithlife eBooks website:
Faithlife Ebooks is designed specifically to help you grow in the light of the Bible.
Be inspired and grow in your faith with quality Christian books by much-loved authors.
I’m not sure how this book fits in with those descriptions above.
Again, from the Logos Publishing Philosophy:
We trust that our users will exercise discernment in their choice of digital content just as they would when walking through a paper library or bookstore
No objections, and certainly my experience when walking through Barnes & Noble (or a university library). However, when I’m walking through my local Christian bookstore, I do not expect to see “Lolita” or the “Kinsey Report” or an art book dedicated to Andres Serrano on the shelves.
I do not support “banning” books or cancel culture or suppressing speech, but there is a time and a place. Go ahead and publish “50 Shades of Grey”, but a copy should not be available in an elementary school library.
This book may have some value to a Christian academic or ministry worker in this field, but it was not a theological discussion of “transgenderism”, or a history of the church’s treatment of “transgender” people, or a manual of how to evangelize or minister to “transgender” people, so I’m not sure how it qualifies as “quality Christian book” or a help to my growth “in the light of the Bible”.
What I like about Faithlife is the fact that the available books are curated, in the ebook store and the general ebook store mostly through automatic filtering, and in Logos and Verbum manually. So when I buy a book, I can be reasonably sure that it fulfills some minimum quality standard. I might not agree with the contents of the book, but at least I know that the contents is presented in a manner to be able to use the book to understand the position, or to be able to respond to it.
This is different with the Kindle shop for example, where there are many low quality books.
Now since the Logos stores are curated, that means that inevitably there will be some books which some users want, which get removed. That's fine. It's something we have to live with.
However, let's not pretend the book in question was removed because it "not related to the Bible".
Dog Hikes in Southern California aren't Bible related either, but have their place in the Logos ecosystem anyway. It was clearly removed because it was offensive to much of FL's core customer base. That includes myself. Still I don't agree with the decision to remove the book. It should have been moved to the "general ebooks" store instead, so that for example ministry workers or apologists would still be able to pick it up, to integrate it into their Logos system and be able to use all the research capabilities with this book, if they need to.
[Y]
What I have discovered recently, although perhaps it falls into the "should have known" category, is that the trap of using the same words to mean different things extends beyond church-related words. In the space of a week, I have run into doctrine (as in doctrine of Lent), methodology (as in gay methodology), even truth (applied to non-propositional statements) used in ways I would never use them. It has reinforced my understanding of how difficult it can be to communicate with such a broad audience and what a thin line Faithlife was to navigate. We not only do not believe the same things, we lack a common language to discuss our beliefs.
Just for the sake of clarification, the term I quoted referencing methodology, was not my term but a term from the book. I personally seek to refrain from using terms that would be considered derogatory or insulting.
Thank you for the clarification - especially since it makes me even more curious about the use of the word "methodology".
That is all I thought you did and it was a fair question.
Faithlife Ebooks is designed specifically to help you grow in the light of the Bible. Be inspired and grow in your faith with quality Christian books by much-loved authors. I’m not sure how this book fits in with those descriptions above. Again, from the Logos Publishing Philosophy: We trust that our users will exercise discernment in their choice of digital content just as they would when walking through a paper library or bookstore No objections, and certainly my experience when walking through Barnes & Noble (or a university library). However, when I’m walking through my local Christian bookstore, I do not expect to see “Lolita” or the “Kinsey Report” or an art book dedicated to Andres Serrano on the shelves. I do not support “banning” books or cancel culture or suppressing speech, but there is a time and a place. Go ahead and publish “50 Shades of Grey”, but a copy should not be available in an elementary school library. This book may have some value to a Christian academic or ministry worker in this field, but it was not a theological discussion of “transgenderism”, or a history of the church’s treatment of “transgender” people, or a manual of how to evangelize or minister to “transgender” people, so I’m not sure how it qualifies as “quality Christian book” or a help to my growth “in the light of the Bible”.
The problem lies with Faithlife. Someone at Faithlife appears to have added books listed on general.ebooks.faithlife.com to the faithlife.com catalogue - hence your understandable concern and question. Other than the statement on the home page of general.ebooks.faithlife.com: "Ebooks for Serious Readers" there is no statement from Faithlife that states what this site general site is about, it simply sits over the top of ebooks.faithlife.com and points to the about page of that site. And I can understand your confusion, particularly if you do not know that ebooks.faithlife.com used to be Vyrso.com and general.ebooks.faithlife.com use to be Noet.com, two clearly distinguishable websites with clear target audiences, one aimed at Christian readers looking for non-Academic Books and one aimed at all readers looking for academic books regardless of their beliefs. Faithlife has made a mess of this when then eliminated the separate domain names and then decided book catalogues from the different sites should be mixed. And they no longer know what they stand for on each of these sites.
I understand the dissenting opinion, but I'm baffled as to what benefit this provides you. To me, I don't think it belongs in a Christian environment. I also would not expect Faithlife to offer pornographic options for those who wish to study it to understand it, or to be informed about it. To me, Bible software is an instrument used in Christian service, and we who serve in the Lord's house are instructed to discern between the clean and unclean (Leviticus 10:10); and to "not touch the unclean thing" (Isaiah 52:11); and to "not be unequally yoked with unbelievers, for what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness" (2 Corinthians 6:14). To me, a book that is based on "queer methodology", arises from a spirit of lawlessness (Romans 1:26-27), and does belong along side of those instruments used to serve in the Lord's house. Those type of books should be frowned upon (Romans 1:32). That is, if we want to serve God, with His anointing (Hebrews 1:9).
I respect your viewpoint and if this is your conviction then I encourage you to stand by it. For me "bible software" is a tool and "books" are tools. To me what is important is how those tools are used. My bible software cannot be defiled, and neither can I by the presence of a book discussing the philosophy of belief etc of a group I do not agree with even when it is in contradiction with the bibles teachings There is plenty of coverage of other topics in my resources in Logos I don't agree with and would not practice and from my view contradicts the bibles teachings. The absence of such books would not make my software or library and more Holy either. The issue is my holiness and how I use the software and resources in the library.
The problem is Faithlife converted Noet.com to general.ebooks.faithlife.com and have not made a clear statement of where they draw the line on that is published on that site. I go off how the site was when it was Noet.Com and find no issue with the book being available on that site based on that. It should not have been put on ebooks.faithlife.com - that was a faithlife error that should have been corrected by removing it form that site catalogue only.
The problem is Faithlife converted Noet.com to general.ebooks.faithlife.com and have not made a clear statement of where they draw the line on that is published on that site.
I may be completely off on this but I assumed this site was frozen at what was sold when Noet was dropped in order to not shaft the Noet users.
To me what is important is how those tools are used. My bible software cannot be defiled, and neither can I by the presence of a book discussing the philosophy of belief etc of a group I do not agree with even when it is in contradiction with the bibles teachings
When I came to Christ, part of my deliverance was doing a house cleaning of unclean things (books, magazines, albums, posters, etc.) as per (Acts 19:19). However, I do differentiate between books on doctrines or teachings that are biblically debatable, but that I don't agree with, vs. books that clearly stand defiant of Biblical teachings regarding righteousness. Those things go in my (Colossians 2:21) category. That is a discipline that I also try to bring into my media and internet consumption (2 Timothy 2:21), as well.
The problem is Faithlife converted Noet.com to general.ebooks.faithlife.com and have not made a clear statement of where they draw the line on that is published on that site. I may be completely off on this but I assumed this site was frozen at what was sold when Noet was dropped in order to not shaft the Noet users.
I don't think it was frozen. Looking at https://general.ebooks.faithlife.com/search?context=product&sortBy=Newest&limit=15&page=1&filters=status-live_Status&ownership=all&geographicAvailability=all the top result is a 2022 book about cloud computing.
