SEARCH (again,) why is it so difficult ...
TL/DR: 1) How do I get search results for the questions of Christ. 2) Please relook at the Logos search function.
I realize this is a much-discussed topic (maybe that indicates a problem for the general user), but after searching the forums (for literally hours), I still can't figure out how to find the questions of Christ.
I am a fairly new user of Logos (about 1.5 years) and I know am just scratching the surface of the power of Logos - regardless, this has me stymied. It seems to me some basic items seem out of reach for an avid (e.g. daily) user. As a former software developer, I understand SQL/variable/boolean searches, but for the life of me, I can't get an answer for many of my questions without multiple forums/blogs searches - only to go online for an answer.
It seems to me that, despite the difficulty for the back-end developers, this has been an issue since the very early days of Logos. As you know, a user's confidence in the software dictates how indispensable the sw is to them. In other words, If I get search results, but I don't trust them, this should be an indicator to the developers of areas to refine in the sw. Note: I am not advocating for scope-creep, simply refining what should be a basic functionality of the Logos Search.
jjw
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Hi Jason,
I was able to do this easily by using the search templates as a model.
First, I opened the Search Templates Sidebar and chose One Person Asks Another Person A Question. I filled in Jesus and Peter.
That gave me the search term: {Speaker <Person Jesus>} INTERSECTS {Label Question} INTERSECTS {Addressee <Person Peter>}
I deleted the last part (about Peter) and got my search for all the questions of Jesus:
I think the first place a person should go when you don't know how to search for something is to the search templates. Don't be disappointed if the search template you need isn't immediately apparent, because you might be able to modify one of them to work for what you need.
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Jason Wells said:
As a former software developer, I understand SQL/variable/boolean searches, but for the life of me, I can't get an answer for many of my questions without multiple forums/blogs searches - only to go online for an answer.
I think you identified the problem. You're coming from SQL, boolean and yes ... the old high school days with Venn diagrams. MJ probably knows more about 'what happened', but as they moved forward, primarily with multi-language streams, the syntax became more and more unique to Logos. So much so, that experienced users are scratching their heads, forum questions are half-answers, etc.
At this point, I suspect the horse is out of the barn. If it makes you feel any better, the assistance to users has barely improved over the years.
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Jason Wells said:
TL/DR: 1) How do I get search results for the questions of Christ. 2) Please relook at the Logos search function.
I realize this is a much-discussed topic (maybe that indicates a problem for the general user), but after searching the forums (for literally hours), I still can't figure out how to find the questions of Christ.
I am a fairly new user of Logos (about 1.5 years) and I know am just scratching the surface of the power of Logos - regardless, this has me stymied. It seems to me some basic items seem out of reach for an avid (e.g. daily) user. As a former software developer, I understand SQL/variable/boolean searches, but for the life of me, I can't get an answer for many of my questions without multiple forums/blogs searches - only to go online for an answer.
It seems to me that, despite the difficulty for the back-end developers, this has been an issue since the very early days of Logos. As you know, a user's confidence in the software dictates how indispensable the sw is to them. In other words, If I get search results, but I don't trust them, this should be an indicator to the developers of areas to refine in the sw. Note: I am not advocating for scope-creep, simply refining what should be a basic functionality of the Logos Search.
jjw
Do you have the Bible Browser? If so, you should be able to open to Speaker: Jesus and Sentence Type: Interrogative. I see a result of 333 "hits".
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Bill Shewmaker said:
Do you have the Bible Browser? If so, you should be able to open to Speaker: Jesus and Sentence Type: Interrogative. I see a result of 333 "hits".
I think this proves the OP's point. It's a great suggestion, but it's not in the least intuitive. On Google we would just type "what questions did Jesus ask?" or "how many questions did Jesus ask?" and Google would interpret our language. Not so with Logos. We must not only know what search results we want, but exactly HOW to get those results. Likewise, the INTERSECTS operator is a wonderful tool, but if you don't KNOW it exists, then it's essentially non-existent (in a Shrödingerian kind of way).
Having used Logos a long time, I'm used to its quirks, but I still resort to the search templates to remember how to form a search properly. How refreshing it would be to simply type "what questions did Jesus ask?" and get an answer.
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I'm using the Bible Browser more and more rather than search. Much easier to find many of the pieces of information we are actually looking for.
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I concur with the challenges people experience. My main complaint about Logos is the lack of user friendliness. This is mainly caused by inconsistencies in the user interface as well as the highly complex search syntax. Yes, searches might produce results that are highly precise, but this does not help if I cannot remember the syntax.
I also noticed the Bible Browser. However, again, who can remember which tool to use out of the many tools Logos has, many of which have overlapping functionality? To me (a non-native English speaker), "Bible Browser" sounds like a tool that helps me browse through the Bible. However, it is much more another search tool.
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I hear what you are saying. But I have said that about all other Bible Platforms I have used. Logos is the MOST user-friendly and intuitive out of all of them in my opinion.Armin said:My main complaint about Logos is the lack of user friendliness.
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I listed here some GUI inconsistencies:
https://community.logos.com/forums/t/197602.aspx
Some of them could easily be fixed but they don't seem to be a priority for FL.
GUI design is a complex topic with lots of research happening. Still, there is no easy way to ensure a GUI is easy to use. However, GUI inconsistencies significantly reduce usability.
As I mentioned previously in the forums: I gave Logos to about 5 people all of whom I believed were prime candidates to turn into long-term Logos users. However, none of them uses it regularly for the same reason: Too difficult to use.
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If Logos wants a wider customer base, it must develop a more intuitive SEARCH feature, while keeping its present search features for those who need them. The search feature is certainly a nightmare for those new to Logos Bible software.
I have used Logos for over 30 years, and I can usually find a way to search for whatever I am looking for, in English, Greek, or Hebrew. But the search feature is a real turn-off to new customers. There must be a way to fix it and make most searching very intuitive, while keeping the Geeks happy also.
"In all cases, the Church is to be judged by the Scripture, not the Scripture by the Church," John Wesley0 -
Jason Wells said:
2) Please relook at the Logos search function
Mike Childs said:There must be a way to fix it and make most searching very intuitive
Personal experience: I find the most common searches intuitive except for the span searched (verse, article, clause). I find documentation on uncommon searches only in the wiki, and on labels -scattered. The isolation of the clause search and the difficulty in setting the analysis view from semantic to grammatic limits its use. I've not tried to master the syntax search, I find Preaching Theme and Lexham Systematic Theology categories useless because they divide material in ways that are far different than my mental map.
Faithlife has relooked at the search in the last few major releases changing the cookbook format to a template format, using Bible Browser and Factbook to replace the need for many searches ... The problem in intractable for two major reasons:
- Users want the power of a very complex tool - and they want it to run quickly on a PC/notebook/phone.
- Users often have trouble articulating what they want or translating that into Logos data before even attempting to convert it into Logos syntax.
I am certain they will try again in L10 but fear I hope only for marginal improvement because users can't request what they don't know - and most users don't spend the time necessary to learn what data is available. Why am I so pessimistic? Because I have yet to see or think of a solution that would retain the power and still simplify it.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Mike Childs said:
If Logos wants a wider customer base, it must develop a more intuitive SEARCH feature, while keeping its present search features for those who need them. The search feature is certainly a nightmare for those new to Logos Bible software.
I have used Logos for over 30 years, and I can usually find a way to search for whatever I am looking for, in English, Greek, or Hebrew. But the search feature is a real turn-off to new customers. There must be a way to fix it and make most searching very intuitive, while keeping the Geeks happy also.
Amen!
The search feature in Logos along with some of the guides... are a big turn off for me!
I pray Logos critically look at the Search feature and do something about it.
xn = Christan man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".
Barney Fife is my hero! He only uses an abacus with 14 rows!
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While I understand the comments regarding the difficulty of certain types of searches in Logos, it is good to remember that other bible software does not have persons, speakers, addressees and other items tagged items available in their texts. Logos has provided many, perhaps too many, ways to interact with the text through searches, labels and tagged texts. We may sometimes be frustrated, but we are blessed.
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While I understand the comments regarding the difficulty of certain types of searches in Logos, it is good to remember that other bible software does not have persons, speakers, addressees and other items tagged items available in their texts. Logos has provided many, perhaps too many, ways to interact with the text through searches, labels and tagged texts. We may sometimes be frustrated, but we are blessed.
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One of my favorite posts was 6 years ago. Bible Browser was just released. And Fr Devin asked an obvious question:
https://community.logos.com/forums/t/130729.aspx?ssi=0
The thread wiggles around, and then Bradley sends it to another thread, where it's explained why it just can't be done.
Good search tools aren't impossible in religious software. Just need a better software designer. Fixing a poor design later, is just more poor design.
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Mike Childs said:
If Logos wants a wider customer base, it must develop a more intuitive SEARCH feature, while keeping its present search features for those who need them. The search feature is certainly a nightmare for those new to Logos Bible software.
I completely agree. They need both: The current precision of detailed and complex searches, as well as a simple search that finds most things.
Mike Childs said:I have used Logos for over 30 years, and I can usually find a way to search for whatever I am looking for, in English, Greek, or Hebrew.
I am not yet there but then I have used Logos for only 19 years. [;)]
However, I must admit that my learning curve flattened out. I did a lot of training courses but unless I use a feature regularly, I forget it again.
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Armin said:
The current precision of detailed and complex searches, as well as a simple search that finds most things.
There is a simple search structured pretty much like Google that finds most things that are text only. The moment you start moving from direct text, things get more complex. It is unavoidable. For example, if you want to find Abram and Abraham in the text
- Abram OR Abraham or alternatively Abram, Abraham works fine ... almost as well as Google [;)]
but if you wish to take advantage of the Logos coding and get all the places Abraham is mentioned under any name or pronoun or other reference, you use:
- <Person Abraham> ... sorry Google doesn't do this [:(]
I'm not minimizing the difficulties nor suggesting there are no improvements, I'm just trying to get users to think clearly about the issue so they can make concrete suggestions -- something Faithlife can act on.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:
I'm not minimizing the difficulties nor suggesting there are no improvements, I'm just trying to get users to think clearly about the issue so they can make concrete suggestions -- something Faithlife can act on.
I did point out several concrete inconsistencies here: https://community.logos.com/forums/t/197602.aspx But so far, no visible action on FL's part has been taken. My hope is that L10 will fix some of them.
When it comes to usability, taking ideas from widely used products can help. For instance, Logos' tab management is very awkward. Why not take the superb tab management from Chrome? And the same is valid for the "History" of resources/tabs that were used. I wished I could search / sort / .... my Logos history. Again, I mentioned this years ago here on the Forum. But nothing happened.
Innovations rarely come from end users. They mainly come from a few smart people working in industry or starting up their own companies. Just like Bob did several decades ago. But FL needs to remain innovative. They broaden their product range but should not forget Logos.
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Armin said:
I did point out several concrete inconsistencies here: https://community.logos.com/forums/t/197602.aspx But so far, no visible action on FL's part has been taken.
Yes, GUI inconsistencies where I agree with you. I am specifically referring to the Search - primarily the search panel.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:
Yes, GUI inconsistencies where I agree with you. I am specifically referring to the Search - primarily the search panel.
Amen and Amen to both of you!
xn = Christan man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".
Barney Fife is my hero! He only uses an abacus with 14 rows!
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Thank you Levi - this is really helpful. I will play with syntax and see if I can't morph my questions a bit more. Thanks again!
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Bill Shewmaker said:
Do you have the Bible Browser? If so, you should be able to open to Speaker: Jesus and Sentence Type: Interrogative. I see a result of 333 "hits".
Thanks Bill - I'm not sure how I missed the Bible Browser (I have been stubborn and just smacking my head against the wall until I figured out the search function.) I am going to dig deeper into this!
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Wow - that escalated quickly! [:D]
Thanks Gregory, David, DBM/Armin (who articulated the technical aspect WAY better that I did/could!), and xnman for the support on this. I'll be honest, I thought I was gonna get flamed by some developer/FL fanboy for my post. I appreciate all the thoughtful and insightful answers/comments. This will help me in getting to this solution, but also future questions as well.
Also thank you MJ for your thoughts. It goes without saying that you are a rockstar (in the best possible sense) around here and I respect/appreciate your insight on this tough topic.
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Thanks to PL and xnman in another thread, I have had a major breakthrough in understanding the problem of the "search".
- One group of complaints about the search is not a search issue at all. It is quick access to basic "facts" where one is not interested in where the information is found, what support there is for the fact. Yes, this information is often in Factbook but it is hidden among all the data on the topic; it takes time and experience to go directly to it. This is the function that the incomplete Faithlife Assistant performs. If you want it, press for further development of Faithlife Assistant rather than the Search.
- One group of complaints about the search is easily handled by the Bible browser, if people know how to use it. They don't. It needs to be updated with the newer labels, have more training with specific examples of questions solved with it, and have Logos Pro training "in your face" when you first start using it so people don't mindlessly guess. An original language Bible browser for morphology, grammar, semantics, and syntax might also be useful for early language students and adventuresome lay users.
- The major points that require change on the Search remain the same ... but a major share of the grousing gets broken out into the Assistant and rowser.
- Now the major UI problem becomes one of directing the user to the right tool.
I am embarrassed at how long it took me to understand that the complaints about the search were not about the search at all but rather simple fact finding.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:
Thanks to PL and xnman in another thread, I have had a major breakthrough in understanding the problem of the "search".
- One group of complaints about the search is not a search issue at all. It is quick access to basic "facts" where one is not interested in where the information is found, what support there is for the fact. Yes, this information is often in Factbook but it is hidden among all the data on the topic; it takes time and experience to go directly to it. This is the function that the incomplete Faithlife Assistant performs. If you want it, press for further development of Faithlife Assistant rather than the Search.
- One group of complaints about the search is easily handled by the Bible browser, if people know how to use it. They don't. It needs to be updated with the newer labels, have more training with specific examples of questions solved with it, and have Logos Pro training "in your face" when you first start using it so people don't mindlessly guess. An original language Bible browser for morphology, grammar, semantics, and syntax might also be useful for early language students and adventuresome lay users.
- The major points that require change on the Search remain the same ... but a major share of the grousing gets broken out into the Assistant and rowser.
- Now the major UI problem becomes one of directing the user to the right tool.
One thought in this -- would it make sense to have a Bible Browser link in Search along with the selections for search types (Bible | Basic | Media | Clause | Morph | Syntax)?
For God and For Neighbor
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JBR said:
One thought in this -- would it make sense to have a Bible Browser link in Search along with the selections for search types (Bible | Basic | Media | Clause | Morph | Syntax)?
It might but there are some subtle differences that makes it more difficult than it sounds. It is worth exploring.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:
It might but there are some subtle differences that makes it more difficult than it sounds. It is worth exploring.
The simple implementation would be to launch Bible Browser in its own window, not try and incorporate its functionality into Search.
For God and For Neighbor
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My new "ultimate search layout"
- When I asked a question in Faithlife Assistent, Factbook automatically went to that entry.
- When I executed the Search at the bottom of Factbook, it generated the Search panel.
- Bible browser was completely independent
- and I didn't even attempt to add in a Guide despite its link in Factbook
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:
My new "ultimate search layout"
- When I asked a question in Faithlife Assistent, Factbook automatically went to that entry.
- When I executed the Search at the bottom of Factbook, it generated the Search panel.
- Bible browser was completely independent
- and I didn't even attempt to add in a Guide despite its link in Factbook
Thanks for suggesting it. I tried it and found .... "I didn't understand that...." a lot.
Maybe it's good for simple questions.... like "Who is ..." or "What is ...." or "What is denarii?" - gave an answer. But it seems more complex questions ("When was Paul in Corinth?" or "Paul at Corinth" or "Paul in Athens") confuses it.
"Who was Paul?" gave an answer....
xn = Christan man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".
Barney Fife is my hero! He only uses an abacus with 14 rows!
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JBR said:
One thought in this -- would it make sense to have a Bible Browser link in Search along with the selections for search types (Bible | Basic | Media | Clause | Morph | Syntax)?
This causes me to wonder... so we would have Bible Browser = Paul{Basic} [Search<Paul>Near Rome AND (not in Acts)] ???? - Example only!
See... I think all the symbols (I call hieroglyphics) that's in search now .... just causes confusion. Why add Bible Browser to anything... I actually think I am learning to use it a bit now... Thanks to Graham Criddle.... and MJ... Believe me... that is a biiiiig streeetccch for me to actually find help in my searches!!!
xn = Christan man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".
Barney Fife is my hero! He only uses an abacus with 14 rows!
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xnman said:
But it seems more complex questions ("When was Paul in Corinth?" or "Paul at Corinth" or "Paul in Athens") confuses it.
Google can handle that one:
I know, I know. Google is a $1.5 billion dollar company with 140,000 employees. But the field of questions about biblical knowledge does have more limitations than all of human knowledge indexed by Google. Questions beginning with "When..." should look for dates. I assume all dates are tagged. So dates near "Paul" and "Corinth" would be a good bet.
I also found that FL Assistant doesn't do very well with "Where is..." I asked it "Where is Tel Dan?" and it brought up the Factbook entry for the book of Daniel. I tried putting "Tel Dan" into quotation marks and same thing. It did better with "Where is Jerusalem?" (Factbook entry for Jerusalem) But if I want to know where Jerusalem is, not merely what it is, I would expect a map to be opened up to Jerusalem.
There's definitely room for improvement, even without becoming a full-blown fount of all knowledge like Google.
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Rosie Perera said:
I also found that FL Assistant doesn't do very well with "Where is..." I asked it "Where is Tel Dan?" and it brought up the Factbook entry for the book of Daniel. I tried putting "Tel Dan" into quotation marks and same thing. It did better with "Where is Jerusalem?" (Factbook entry for Jerusalem) But if I want to know where Jerusalem is, not merely what it is, I would expect a map to be opened up to Jerusalem.
There's definitely room for improvement, even without becoming a full-blown fount of all knowledge like Google.
Faithlife acknowledges that Faithlife Assistance is basically a prototype. They ran a survey on the use of and desire for improvement in the tool earlier in the year - I suspect that the primary response was what's that feature?
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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xnman said:
But it seems more complex questions ("When was Paul in Corinth?" or "Paul at Corinth" or "Paul in Athens") confuses it.
You are right that these are more complex questions. And in cases like these, it is important to understand the different tools Logos makes available - that might be more appropriate than trying to do something in a Search panel. In this case I would like at the Biblical Event Navigator Tool and search for references to Corinth
or - another way to access this information - is by entering Corinth in the Factbook search box and choosing one of the events listed:
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MJ. Smith said:
Faithlife acknowledges that Faithlife Assistance is basically a prototype. They ran a survey on the use of and desire for improvement in the tool earlier in the year - I suspect that the primary response was what's that feature?
Yes, this is also my response. So far, whenever I used Faithlife Assistant, I get the following answer: I didn’t understand that. Would you like to search for .....
I don't need more tools / guides /utilities ... to essentially do the same thing that other tools / guides / ... already do in Logos. This only adds to the confusion. The already existing tools need to be improved.
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Armin said:
I didn’t understand that. Would you like to search for .....
That is because it is a prototype with limited capabilities - what it does recognize is documented in the wiki. Just like Alexa or Siri you must learn its capabilities.
Armin said:I don't need more tools / guides /utilities ... to essentially do the same thing that other tools / guides / ... already do in Logos.
But other people may ... none of the current tools, with the exception of Faithlife Assistant, is designed to handle speech-style requests for specific facts. I may be wrong but as I see current trends, since the Faithlife Assistant works on speech as well as manual input, I expect the mobile app users to give it the demand that turns it into a full function.
Armin said:The already existing tools need to be improved
There are many tools that need to be improved but concrete suggestions are the way to make that happen. For me, the tool I would use significantly more if it were improved in the Concordance function which needs to deal with n-grams -- obviously not the majority opinion but it is representative of the problems Logos/Verbum faces as they allocate their resources. But there are still several functions that are not covered at all.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Rosie Perera said:
Google can handle that one:
Exactly my point, Rosie, as well as the views expressed by xnman and several others on these recent threads on Search.
We're not specifically looking for another tool, or some layout to link up existing tools, or beefing up the voice tool (FL Assistant). What I'm asking for, for the sake of current users and future prospective sales, is a Logos Search as close to Google's as possible:
When I think of something to search, I type a query into the search box (the GO box), and Logos returns either: (a) a list of possible results, with the most likely "answer" displayed up top directly, just like the Google search results page; OR (b) if Logos is very certain it understands my query and knows the exact answer, it may, instead of displaying a results list, directly open a page from Factbook or Event Navigator or Bible Search or Bible Browser or Topic Guide or Atlas or Concordance or whatever existing tool out of the myriad of tools available.
The above use case is my description of the "ideal" or "dream" Logos Search, in my opinion. Knowing that FL is not Alphabet, I know we won't get to this point fast, or possibly ever. But as close to the above described "intuitiveness" and "usability" FL can get, I'd be very happy and cheering the team on.
Please reimagine Search.
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Graham Criddle said:
You are right that these are more complex questions. And in cases like these, it is important to understand the different tools Logos makes available - that might be more appropriate than trying to do something in a Search panel. In this case I would like at the Biblical Event Navigator Tool and search for references to Corinth
I appreciate all the suggestions about using all the different functions to try to find stuff hidden in my Logos Bible program...
(shifts head back and forth to pop muscles in neck.. takes a deep breath... then counts to 10...) [8-|]
But folks... I don't want to have to take a course for all the many functions of Logos just to find out what function to use ...every time I want to find something. All you are doing by suggesting all these different functions is really showing how inept Search and Factbook really are. Think about it. Search didn't work... so Logos started building all the guides and then if someone like me complains about Search... then I'm told I should have used such and such guide.. At best that is a work-around to NOT have to fix Search!
And I don't want to have to train myself in all the hieroglyphics to use search. I'm a minister... schooled in Bible...and I just want to study my Bible and be able to use Search and Factbook to ASSIST me with that! I'm tired of my Bible program diverting my time to study to have to learn Search every time I go to use it. My time means something to me....
The biggest problem I am finding now.. in Logos...IS THE SEARCH AND FACTBOOK FUNCTIONS don't work! They change my focus from studying my Bible to studying Search or Factbook or whatever to find out how to use them... Why does anyone want to accept a Bible program that we pay very good money for...that demands that? I don't understand the argument for that???....
Search and Factbook and some of the other guides...ONLY work for people that have a PHD in hieroglyphics or people with an I.Q. of 210 or higher or people that have grown up with it and now speak the hieroglyphics language 2nd nature.
I don't speak it... didn't grow up with it and only have an I.Q. of maybe 50? ... And I think there are a lot of people like me that are in the same boat. So why not make Search and Factbook work for us "little people" too?? Instead of adding functions and making it harder to understand and creating more guides to get around the real problem of search not working....
Isn't that the real problem with Search and Factbook.... It just don't work for the "little people" ... like me?
Now... I think this is a good discussion about Search and Factbook and all the other guides... and I pray that someone in Logosland... is actually reading these threads...
xn = Christan man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".
Barney Fife is my hero! He only uses an abacus with 14 rows!
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MJ. Smith said:
There are many tools that need to be improved but concrete suggestions are the way to make that happen.
I would recommend something along the lines of (along the lines of more complex db as an example) a simple Search with an Advanced option. As a fairly new user, I don't necessarily care about what tool is getting me the data - I just want the data. Several things that may be useful in the Advanced search:
- A tool that "walks" you to your answer. Something along the lines of, "what are you looking for?" Time | Event | etc.
- The second would be an option to at least attempt some boolean. This is the way that many semi-advanced users will want to search initially and may find value there. If this is a bridge too far, maybe there is a way to associate certain boolean with the native search syntax?
- Last, is a creative way to simplify the current search. I realize the brand new user may not be the target audience but this thread demonstrates that even seasoned users struggle with this. I love the idea of your ultimate layout. It provides a lot of the data at a glance.
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Many moons ago... I wrote programs for engineers and other people. Without a doubt... I could make the program so functionally perfect that nobody in their right mind could not use it.
My boss, a good man, often told me... if he can't understand how to use the program, then others can't either.
I say that about Search and Factbook. They are just too high in the sky. Bring 'em down!
xn = Christan man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".
Barney Fife is my hero! He only uses an abacus with 14 rows!
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xnman said:
All you are doing by suggesting all these different functions is really showing how inept Search and Factbook really are.
I see it differently. It is recognising that Logos provides a range of tools - not just Search and Factbook - and choosing the appropriate tool for a particular job is useful in getting Logos to provide the information I want.
And what I am trying to do is suggest how to use Logos more effectively so you can get it to answer the questions you are asking of it. As I don't have any influence over the software - apart from making suggestions like anyone else - it's all I am able to do.
xnman said:Search didn't work... so Logos started building all the guides
I also don't see that is the case - in that the Search function and Guides are designed to do different things.
Search, for example, is able to find passages where "grace and truth" are mentioned in the same verse.
But it isn't designed to help me explore all the different ways in which the word translated grace is used throughout the Bible - the Bible Word Study Guide is the tool for that.
And it isn't designed to enable me to quickly see what scholars have said about the prologue in John's Gospel - the Passage Guide is the tool for that.
xnman said:And I don't want to have to train myself in all the hieroglyphics to use search. I'm a minister... schooled in Bible...and I just want to study my Bible and be able to use Search and Factbook to ASSIST me with that!
I do understand that - but to get the most out of using Logos to do Bible study does require, in my experience, some familiarity with the available tools and using them in the way they were designed. Working with the system achieves better results than trying to work against it.
xnman said:The biggest problem I am finding now.. in Logos...IS THE SEARCH AND FACTBOOK FUNCTIONS don't work!
And I am really concerned about this - because we should expect them to work. But it is possible that they are not working in the way you want them to as opposed to not working at all? Apart from bugs, incomplete tagging of resources and some aspects not fully completed I think they are pretty much working as designed. But I do recognise they aren't working in a way that is helpful to you.
xnman said:Search and Factbook and some of the other guides...ONLY work for people that have a PHD in hieroglyphics or people with an I.Q. of 210 or higher or people that have grown up with it and now speak the hieroglyphics language 2nd nature.
I don't know if you are using hyperbole here but I don't meet any of those conditions and do find that, in general, the tools give me the information I require. (I will admit to enjoying engaging with the details but I don't think that's necessary to get functionality from the software!)
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xnman said:
I appreciate all the suggestions about using all the different functions to try to find stuff hidden in my Logos Bible program...
(shifts head back and forth to pop muscles in neck.. takes a deep breath... then counts to 10...)
But folks... I don't want to have to take a course for all the many functions of Logos just to find out what function to use ...every time I want to find something. All you are doing by suggesting all these different functions is really showing how inept Search and Factbook really are. Think about it. Search didn't work... so Logos started building all the guides and then if someone like me complains about Search... then I'm told I should have used such and such guide.. At best that is a work-around to NOT have to fix Search!
And I don't want to have to train myself in all the hieroglyphics to use search. I'm a minister... schooled in Bible...and I just want to study my Bible and be able to use Search and Factbook to ASSIST me with that! I'm tired of my Bible program diverting my time to study to have to learn Search every time I go to use it. My time means something to me....
The biggest problem I am finding now.. in Logos...IS THE SEARCH AND FACTBOOK FUNCTIONS don't work! They change my focus from studying my Bible to studying Search or Factbook or whatever to find out how to use them... Why does anyone want to accept a Bible program that we pay very good money for...that demands that? I don't understand the argument for that???....
Search and Factbook and some of the other guides...ONLY work for people that have a PHD in hieroglyphics or people with an I.Q. of 210 or higher or people that have grown up with it and now speak the hieroglyphics language 2nd nature.
I don't speak it... didn't grow up with it and only have an I.Q. of maybe 50? ... And I think there are a lot of people like me that are in the same boat. So why not make Search and Factbook work for us "little people" too?? Instead of adding functions and making it harder to understand and creating more guides to get around the real problem of search not working....
Isn't that the real problem with Search and Factbook.... It just don't work for the "little people" ... like me?
Now... I think this is a good discussion about Search and Factbook and all the other guides... and I pray that someone in Logosland... is actually reading these threads...
Thanks, xnman. You express exactly what I feel. I have no other software tool for which I spent so much money on training. In fact, I haven't spent money on training for any other software. Just imagine: Who would spend money on a training course on how to use Google Search?
There are Logos users with a PhD in software engineering and they are still confused by the search hieroglyphics in Logos.
This thread shows that some people are experts with Logos search and all the different tools and guides. I sometimes even get the sense that some see the complexity as a welcome challenge. However, others are put off by the complexity and the confusing variety of tools / guides / assistants / .... that sometimes work for what I want to achieve but most of the time they don't. I just want things to work. Logos is supposed to be a tool to help me. However, after 19 years of using Logos, I still need help to use it.
Reading through all these discussions shows that there clearly is an issue. In the end, FL has to look at the ROI. I personally believe that investing into a proper Search and an intuitive GUI will pay off by attracting a larger user base.
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Graham Criddle said:
Working with the system achieves better results than trying to work against it.
Yes, this is a key characteristic of Logos in its current version: I have to work with Logos. But I believe Logos should work for me.
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This thread and other recent threads about Search complexity are so comforting and almost therapeutic to me... all this time I thought I was the only one with these struggles and I thought it was because I was lazy or unintelligent or haven't invested enough time and money to learn to use my main Bible tool.
I sincerely hope that Mark Barnes and others (the new CEO?) at FL/Logos are reading these threads... If you're here, please let us know you're hearing us?
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PL said:
This thread and other recent threads about Search complexity are so comforting and almost therapeutic to me... all this time I thought I was the only one with these struggles and I thought it was because I was lazy or unintelligent or haven't invested enough time and money to learn to use my main Bible tool.
I sincerely hope that Mark Barnes and others (the new CEO?) at FL/Logos are reading these threads... If you're here, please let us know you're hearing us?
Well said, PL. I am actually afraid of Logos. I figure I am gonna get myself wedged sideways in one of its tools + have a real problem doing a 12 point turn to get out. I just learned a few days ago how to drop-kick a book into the cloud. And this is while studying the answer every time someone would ask, but I am not understanding it.
Lazy? I doubt you are, PL... I use Logos 3-4 hours 7 days a week.
Unintelligent? I read what you write; you are sharp... I am intelligent; this I know by living, taking tests, + observing others. Am I the sharpest? Not hardly.
Time + money? I figure the rig should be more intuitive. I believe there ought to be a mini-golf version of Logos. I figure there needs to be a next-step-up version of Logos that is intermediate. Then the current one should await one's increasing expertise.
I am stubborn re learning computer stuff. But, since I pay-to-play here, I believe FL should simplify the action. I do not wanna learn Logosese: [{( AND OR INTERSECTS...................All this should be behind the scenes, like the trany in my car.
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scooter said:
Time + money? I figure the rig should be more intuitive. I believe there ought to be a mini-golf version of Logos. I figure there needs to be a next-step-up version of Logos that is intermediate. Then the current one should await one's increasing expertise.
Could you expand on what you mean by these?
What sort of functionality, what "level of permitted complexity", is there at each level?
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Graham Criddle said:
I do understand that - but to get the most out of using Logos to do Bible study does require, in my experience, some familiarity with the available tools and using them in the way they were designed. Working with the system achieves better results than trying to work against it.
And I am really concerned about this - because we should expect them to work. But it is possible that they are not working in the way you want them to as opposed to not working at all? Apart from bugs, incomplete tagging of resources and some aspects not fully completed I think they are pretty much working as designed. But I do recognise they aren't working in a way that is helpful to you.
I hope people on the forum understand...I have come to and do appreciate so many on the forum. My rants are not about you, they are about SEARCH only. Your suggestions and help has been a great blessing to me. And I thank you for that. I pray I have not offended anyone... I would be hurt if I did.
But... let's say I'm construction worker instead of a Bible person.... and I've worked in construction for several years, a ditch digger by trade... and I buy a shovel (a simple shovel) to help me dig and do my work,.... Does it sound reasonable...to have to "buy courses", to watch videos, to ask for help on how to use that shovel... etc.. every time I use it? Especially, after years of experience with my old shovel? My boss would probably look at me and say politely... "You don't know how to use a shovel? Your fired"!
My answer is NO! I have used search in other programs a very long time in my life... I have used Google search.... and most of the time... I don't have to study a course...watch videos... or ask anyone on how to find things.... and most of the time I find it first try.
That doesn't happen with me in Logos Search... oh I can find... names... places and things.. what I call very simple things.... but believe me... I don't think I have ever ask Logos Search anything more complicate than that what I have to keep on asking (or begging) to try to get close to some kind of answer that will help me.
I think that's just plain not good. As I have said.... I want to spend my time studying my Bible...NOT studying how to search and such.
And I do appreciate all the work... and I recognize there has been tons of work, that has been put into Logos to make it as good as it is...
But this guy... that needs a shovel.... and just can't make the shovel that is handed to him... work. And the shovel that is handed to him... causes him waste a lot of his time trying to figure out how to use it! Not acceptable to me... I'd fire me for wasting so much time... [8-|]
xn = Christan man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".
Barney Fife is my hero! He only uses an abacus with 14 rows!
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Graham Criddle said:
Could you expand on what you mean by these?
What sort of functionality, what "level of permitted complexity", is there at each level?
I'll take a stab at this.... In Search... we have what I call the top level meny consisting of [Bible, Basic, Media, Clause, Morph] - "I'll call Level 1".
Next level we have [Search All Morph Text in All Passages in The New King James Version for] - I'll call "Level 2".
Next is the search line... where we type in our request with all the hieroglyphics and such... and the chosen words of Near Far, wherever you are" and "Not" and whatever else goes with it... and remember to put Person, if its about a person...and on and on and on... I forget the rest... sorry. This is Leve 3....
Now...take Level 1.... why not have drop down menus under each selection with choices associated with each choice...
Then the same with Level 2...
And all the choices we choose is then put in Level 3 and then depending on what we have chosen ... then more drop down menus to solidify out search...
I think... with the Search we have.... this Level of Choices idea might work... another Level or two might have to be added.... but then I wouldn't have to remember all the symbols, what comes first, etc.... as I do now.
Also.... Doesn't that magnify how complicated Search is now?
Edit: Why not have a way of me choosing to have search search all my books only? So it takes a minute or two... ok. But it searches every book in my library when I choose that?????
xn = Christan man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".
Barney Fife is my hero! He only uses an abacus with 14 rows!
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xnman said:
And all the choices we choose is then put in Level 3 and then depending on what we have chosen ... then more drop down menus to solidify out search...
Thank you - that was helpful
This reminds me of something that was in a much earlier version of Logos - Logos 3- called the Search Query Builder (or some such name, I wasn't using it then). It didn't appear in Logos 4 (which was a significant redesign and has been the basis for Logos releases since then
Back in 2019, Phil from Faithlife asked what would be helpful in such a capability - which resulted in a very interesting thread at https://community.logos.com/forums/t/182288.aspx with some suggestions as to what that might look like. So far, that hasn't turned into an available solution. But it has similarities, I think, with what you are describing
I expect that one of the reasons this hasn't (yet) appeared, is it is quite a complex thing to develop
xnman said:Edit: Why not have a way of me choosing to have search search all my books only? So it takes a minute or two... ok. But it searches every book in my library when I choose that?????
This is possible / easy today.
Select a Basic Search (your level 1)
Within that, ensure All Resources is selected in the second level line. Enter the search term and run it
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xnman said:
But this guy... that needs a shovel.... and just can't make the shovel that is handed to him... work. And the shovel that is handed to him... causes him waste a lot of his time trying to figure out how to use it! Not acceptable to me... I'd fire me for wasting so much time...
A good analogy except ... when working the garden, sometimes you need a shovel, sometimes a spade, sometimes a pickax, sometimes a hoe, sometimes a rake, sometimes a pitchfork ...FL can't "fix" the array of tools without feedback that makes it obvious that you're a shovel and only a shovel kind of worker. See SUGGESTION: Partially fix Search by fixing Factbook - Faithlife Forums (logos.com) for a suggestion on how to make Factbook better for only a shovel kind of worker.
Remember that no matter how simple FL makes it to enter a valid query, if you don't spend the time learning what the various search terms are, you will still get garbage results i.e. there is a complexity that is the direct result of the power.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:
A good analogy except ... when working the garden, sometimes you need a shovel, sometimes a spade, sometimes a pickax, sometimes a hoe, sometimes a rake, sometimes a pitchfork ...FL can't "fix" the array of tools without feedback that makes it obvious that you're a shovel and only a shovel kind of worker. See SUGGESTION: Partially fix Search by fixing Factbook - Faithlife Forums (logos.com) for a suggestion on how to make Factbook better for only a shovel kind of worker.
Remember that no matter how simple FL makes it to enter a valid query, if you don't spend the time learning what the various search terms are, you will still get garbage results i.e. there is a complexity that is the direct result of the power.
Thanks MJ... remember.... I referred to a ditch digger... lol
And I'm willing to "learn" search.... just not willing to have to "learn" it every time I use it. [8-|]
xn = Christan man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".
Barney Fife is my hero! He only uses an abacus with 14 rows!
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Graham... I'll work with that again.... I admit I may have missed things.... with an I.Q. of 50... well... it can happen to me.... [8-|]
Thanks
xn = Christan man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".
Barney Fife is my hero! He only uses an abacus with 14 rows!
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