SEARCH (again,) why is it so difficult ...
TL/DR: 1) How do I get search results for the questions of Christ. 2) Please relook at the Logos search function.
I realize this is a much-discussed topic (maybe that indicates a problem for the general user), but after searching the forums (for literally hours), I still can't figure out how to find the questions of Christ.
I am a fairly new user of Logos (about 1.5 years) and I know am just scratching the surface of the power of Logos - regardless, this has me stymied. It seems to me some basic items seem out of reach for an avid (e.g. daily) user. As a former software developer, I understand SQL/variable/boolean searches, but for the life of me, I can't get an answer for many of my questions without multiple forums/blogs searches - only to go online for an answer.
It seems to me that, despite the difficulty for the back-end developers, this has been an issue since the very early days of Logos. As you know, a user's confidence in the software dictates how indispensable the sw is to them. In other words, If I get search results, but I don't trust them, this should be an indicator to the developers of areas to refine in the sw. Note: I am not advocating for scope-creep, simply refining what should be a basic functionality of the Logos Search.
jjw
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Hi Jason,
I was able to do this easily by using the search templates as a model.
First, I opened the Search Templates Sidebar and chose One Person Asks Another Person A Question. I filled in Jesus and Peter.
That gave me the search term: {Speaker <Person Jesus>} INTERSECTS {Label Question} INTERSECTS {Addressee <Person Peter>}
I deleted the last part (about Peter) and got my search for all the questions of Jesus:
I think the first place a person should go when you don't know how to search for something is to the search templates. Don't be disappointed if the search template you need isn't immediately apparent, because you might be able to modify one of them to work for what you need.
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As a former software developer, I understand SQL/variable/boolean searches, but for the life of me, I can't get an answer for many of my questions without multiple forums/blogs searches - only to go online for an answer.
I think you identified the problem. You're coming from SQL, boolean and yes ... the old high school days with Venn diagrams. MJ probably knows more about 'what happened', but as they moved forward, primarily with multi-language streams, the syntax became more and more unique to Logos. So much so, that experienced users are scratching their heads, forum questions are half-answers, etc.
At this point, I suspect the horse is out of the barn. If it makes you feel any better, the assistance to users has barely improved over the years.
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TL/DR: 1) How do I get search results for the questions of Christ. 2) Please relook at the Logos search function.
I realize this is a much-discussed topic (maybe that indicates a problem for the general user), but after searching the forums (for literally hours), I still can't figure out how to find the questions of Christ.
I am a fairly new user of Logos (about 1.5 years) and I know am just scratching the surface of the power of Logos - regardless, this has me stymied. It seems to me some basic items seem out of reach for an avid (e.g. daily) user. As a former software developer, I understand SQL/variable/boolean searches, but for the life of me, I can't get an answer for many of my questions without multiple forums/blogs searches - only to go online for an answer.
It seems to me that, despite the difficulty for the back-end developers, this has been an issue since the very early days of Logos. As you know, a user's confidence in the software dictates how indispensable the sw is to them. In other words, If I get search results, but I don't trust them, this should be an indicator to the developers of areas to refine in the sw. Note: I am not advocating for scope-creep, simply refining what should be a basic functionality of the Logos Search.
jjw
Do you have the Bible Browser? If so, you should be able to open to Speaker: Jesus and Sentence Type: Interrogative. I see a result of 333 "hits".
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Do you have the Bible Browser? If so, you should be able to open to Speaker: Jesus and Sentence Type: Interrogative. I see a result of 333 "hits".
I think this proves the OP's point. It's a great suggestion, but it's not in the least intuitive. On Google we would just type "what questions did Jesus ask?" or "how many questions did Jesus ask?" and Google would interpret our language. Not so with Logos. We must not only know what search results we want, but exactly HOW to get those results. Likewise, the INTERSECTS operator is a wonderful tool, but if you don't KNOW it exists, then it's essentially non-existent (in a Shrödingerian kind of way).
Having used Logos a long time, I'm used to its quirks, but I still resort to the search templates to remember how to form a search properly. How refreshing it would be to simply type "what questions did Jesus ask?" and get an answer.
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I'm using the Bible Browser more and more rather than search. Much easier to find many of the pieces of information we are actually looking for.
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I concur with the challenges people experience. My main complaint about Logos is the lack of user friendliness. This is mainly caused by inconsistencies in the user interface as well as the highly complex search syntax. Yes, searches might produce results that are highly precise, but this does not help if I cannot remember the syntax.
I also noticed the Bible Browser. However, again, who can remember which tool to use out of the many tools Logos has, many of which have overlapping functionality? To me (a non-native English speaker), "Bible Browser" sounds like a tool that helps me browse through the Bible. However, it is much more another search tool.
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My main complaint about Logos is the lack of user friendliness.
I hear what you are saying. But I have said that about all other Bible Platforms I have used. Logos is the MOST user-friendly and intuitive out of all of them in my opinion.0 -
I listed here some GUI inconsistencies:
https://community.logos.com/forums/t/197602.aspx
Some of them could easily be fixed but they don't seem to be a priority for FL.
GUI design is a complex topic with lots of research happening. Still, there is no easy way to ensure a GUI is easy to use. However, GUI inconsistencies significantly reduce usability.
As I mentioned previously in the forums: I gave Logos to about 5 people all of whom I believed were prime candidates to turn into long-term Logos users. However, none of them uses it regularly for the same reason: Too difficult to use.
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If Logos wants a wider customer base, it must develop a more intuitive SEARCH feature, while keeping its present search features for those who need them. The search feature is certainly a nightmare for those new to Logos Bible software.
I have used Logos for over 30 years, and I can usually find a way to search for whatever I am looking for, in English, Greek, or Hebrew. But the search feature is a real turn-off to new customers. There must be a way to fix it and make most searching very intuitive, while keeping the Geeks happy also.
"In all cases, the Church is to be judged by the Scripture, not the Scripture by the Church," John Wesley0 -
2) Please relook at the Logos search function
There must be a way to fix it and make most searching very intuitive
Personal experience: I find the most common searches intuitive except for the span searched (verse, article, clause). I find documentation on uncommon searches only in the wiki, and on labels -scattered. The isolation of the clause search and the difficulty in setting the analysis view from semantic to grammatic limits its use. I've not tried to master the syntax search, I find Preaching Theme and Lexham Systematic Theology categories useless because they divide material in ways that are far different than my mental map.
Faithlife has relooked at the search in the last few major releases changing the cookbook format to a template format, using Bible Browser and Factbook to replace the need for many searches ... The problem in intractable for two major reasons:
- Users want the power of a very complex tool - and they want it to run quickly on a PC/notebook/phone.
- Users often have trouble articulating what they want or translating that into Logos data before even attempting to convert it into Logos syntax.
I am certain they will try again in L10 but fear I hope only for marginal improvement because users can't request what they don't know - and most users don't spend the time necessary to learn what data is available. Why am I so pessimistic? Because I have yet to see or think of a solution that would retain the power and still simplify it.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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If Logos wants a wider customer base, it must develop a more intuitive SEARCH feature, while keeping its present search features for those who need them. The search feature is certainly a nightmare for those new to Logos Bible software.
I have used Logos for over 30 years, and I can usually find a way to search for whatever I am looking for, in English, Greek, or Hebrew. But the search feature is a real turn-off to new customers. There must be a way to fix it and make most searching very intuitive, while keeping the Geeks happy also.
Amen!
The search feature in Logos along with some of the guides... are a big turn off for me!
I pray Logos critically look at the Search feature and do something about it.
xn = Christan man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".
Barney Fife is my hero! He only uses an abacus with 14 rows!
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While I understand the comments regarding the difficulty of certain types of searches in Logos, it is good to remember that other bible software does not have persons, speakers, addressees and other items tagged items available in their texts. Logos has provided many, perhaps too many, ways to interact with the text through searches, labels and tagged texts. We may sometimes be frustrated, but we are blessed.
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While I understand the comments regarding the difficulty of certain types of searches in Logos, it is good to remember that other bible software does not have persons, speakers, addressees and other items tagged items available in their texts. Logos has provided many, perhaps too many, ways to interact with the text through searches, labels and tagged texts. We may sometimes be frustrated, but we are blessed.
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One of my favorite posts was 6 years ago. Bible Browser was just released. And Fr Devin asked an obvious question:
https://community.logos.com/forums/t/130729.aspx?ssi=0
The thread wiggles around, and then Bradley sends it to another thread, where it's explained why it just can't be done.
Good search tools aren't impossible in religious software. Just need a better software designer. Fixing a poor design later, is just more poor design.
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If Logos wants a wider customer base, it must develop a more intuitive SEARCH feature, while keeping its present search features for those who need them. The search feature is certainly a nightmare for those new to Logos Bible software.
I completely agree. They need both: The current precision of detailed and complex searches, as well as a simple search that finds most things.
I have used Logos for over 30 years, and I can usually find a way to search for whatever I am looking for, in English, Greek, or Hebrew.
I am not yet there but then I have used Logos for only 19 years. [;)]
However, I must admit that my learning curve flattened out. I did a lot of training courses but unless I use a feature regularly, I forget it again.
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The current precision of detailed and complex searches, as well as a simple search that finds most things.
There is a simple search structured pretty much like Google that finds most things that are text only. The moment you start moving from direct text, things get more complex. It is unavoidable. For example, if you want to find Abram and Abraham in the text
- Abram OR Abraham or alternatively Abram, Abraham works fine ... almost as well as Google [;)]
but if you wish to take advantage of the Logos coding and get all the places Abraham is mentioned under any name or pronoun or other reference, you use:
- <Person Abraham> ... sorry Google doesn't do this [:(]
I'm not minimizing the difficulties nor suggesting there are no improvements, I'm just trying to get users to think clearly about the issue so they can make concrete suggestions -- something Faithlife can act on.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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I'm not minimizing the difficulties nor suggesting there are no improvements, I'm just trying to get users to think clearly about the issue so they can make concrete suggestions -- something Faithlife can act on.
I did point out several concrete inconsistencies here: https://community.logos.com/forums/t/197602.aspx But so far, no visible action on FL's part has been taken. My hope is that L10 will fix some of them.
When it comes to usability, taking ideas from widely used products can help. For instance, Logos' tab management is very awkward. Why not take the superb tab management from Chrome? And the same is valid for the "History" of resources/tabs that were used. I wished I could search / sort / .... my Logos history. Again, I mentioned this years ago here on the Forum. But nothing happened.
Innovations rarely come from end users. They mainly come from a few smart people working in industry or starting up their own companies. Just like Bob did several decades ago. But FL needs to remain innovative. They broaden their product range but should not forget Logos.
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I did point out several concrete inconsistencies here: https://community.logos.com/forums/t/197602.aspx But so far, no visible action on FL's part has been taken.
Yes, GUI inconsistencies where I agree with you. I am specifically referring to the Search - primarily the search panel.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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I did point out several concrete inconsistencies here: https://community.logos.com/forums/t/197602.aspx But so far, no visible action on FL's part has been taken.
Yes, GUI inconsistencies where I agree with you. I am specifically referring to the Search - primarily the search panel.
Amen and Amen to both of you!
xn = Christan man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".
Barney Fife is my hero! He only uses an abacus with 14 rows!
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Thank you Levi - this is really helpful. I will play with syntax and see if I can't morph my questions a bit more. Thanks again!
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Do you have the Bible Browser? If so, you should be able to open to Speaker: Jesus and Sentence Type: Interrogative. I see a result of 333 "hits".
Thanks Bill - I'm not sure how I missed the Bible Browser (I have been stubborn and just smacking my head against the wall until I figured out the search function.) I am going to dig deeper into this!
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Wow - that escalated quickly! [:D]
Thanks Gregory, David, DBM/Armin (who articulated the technical aspect WAY better that I did/could!), and xnman for the support on this. I'll be honest, I thought I was gonna get flamed by some developer/FL fanboy for my post. I appreciate all the thoughtful and insightful answers/comments. This will help me in getting to this solution, but also future questions as well.
Also thank you MJ for your thoughts. It goes without saying that you are a rockstar (in the best possible sense) around here and I respect/appreciate your insight on this tough topic.
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Thanks to PL and xnman in another thread, I have had a major breakthrough in understanding the problem of the "search".
- One group of complaints about the search is not a search issue at all. It is quick access to basic "facts" where one is not interested in where the information is found, what support there is for the fact. Yes, this information is often in Factbook but it is hidden among all the data on the topic; it takes time and experience to go directly to it. This is the function that the incomplete Faithlife Assistant performs. If you want it, press for further development of Faithlife Assistant rather than the Search.
- One group of complaints about the search is easily handled by the Bible browser, if people know how to use it. They don't. It needs to be updated with the newer labels, have more training with specific examples of questions solved with it, and have Logos Pro training "in your face" when you first start using it so people don't mindlessly guess. An original language Bible browser for morphology, grammar, semantics, and syntax might also be useful for early language students and adventuresome lay users.
- The major points that require change on the Search remain the same ... but a major share of the grousing gets broken out into the Assistant and rowser.
- Now the major UI problem becomes one of directing the user to the right tool.
I am embarrassed at how long it took me to understand that the complaints about the search were not about the search at all but rather simple fact finding.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Thanks to PL and xnman in another thread, I have had a major breakthrough in understanding the problem of the "search".
- One group of complaints about the search is not a search issue at all. It is quick access to basic "facts" where one is not interested in where the information is found, what support there is for the fact. Yes, this information is often in Factbook but it is hidden among all the data on the topic; it takes time and experience to go directly to it. This is the function that the incomplete Faithlife Assistant performs. If you want it, press for further development of Faithlife Assistant rather than the Search.
- One group of complaints about the search is easily handled by the Bible browser, if people know how to use it. They don't. It needs to be updated with the newer labels, have more training with specific examples of questions solved with it, and have Logos Pro training "in your face" when you first start using it so people don't mindlessly guess. An original language Bible browser for morphology, grammar, semantics, and syntax might also be useful for early language students and adventuresome lay users.
- The major points that require change on the Search remain the same ... but a major share of the grousing gets broken out into the Assistant and rowser.
- Now the major UI problem becomes one of directing the user to the right tool.
One thought in this -- would it make sense to have a Bible Browser link in Search along with the selections for search types (Bible | Basic | Media | Clause | Morph | Syntax)?
For God and For Neighbor
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One thought in this -- would it make sense to have a Bible Browser link in Search along with the selections for search types (Bible | Basic | Media | Clause | Morph | Syntax)?
It might but there are some subtle differences that makes it more difficult than it sounds. It is worth exploring.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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One thought in this -- would it make sense to have a Bible Browser link in Search along with the selections for search types (Bible | Basic | Media | Clause | Morph | Syntax)?
It might but there are some subtle differences that makes it more difficult than it sounds. It is worth exploring.
The simple implementation would be to launch Bible Browser in its own window, not try and incorporate its functionality into Search.
For God and For Neighbor
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My new "ultimate search layout"
- When I asked a question in Faithlife Assistent, Factbook automatically went to that entry.
- When I executed the Search at the bottom of Factbook, it generated the Search panel.
- Bible browser was completely independent
- and I didn't even attempt to add in a Guide despite its link in Factbook
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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My new "ultimate search layout"
- When I asked a question in Faithlife Assistent, Factbook automatically went to that entry.
- When I executed the Search at the bottom of Factbook, it generated the Search panel.
- Bible browser was completely independent
- and I didn't even attempt to add in a Guide despite its link in Factbook
Thanks for suggesting it. I tried it and found .... "I didn't understand that...." a lot.
Maybe it's good for simple questions.... like "Who is ..." or "What is ...." or "What is denarii?" - gave an answer. But it seems more complex questions ("When was Paul in Corinth?" or "Paul at Corinth" or "Paul in Athens") confuses it.
"Who was Paul?" gave an answer....
xn = Christan man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".
Barney Fife is my hero! He only uses an abacus with 14 rows!
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One thought in this -- would it make sense to have a Bible Browser link in Search along with the selections for search types (Bible | Basic | Media | Clause | Morph | Syntax)?
This causes me to wonder... so we would have Bible Browser = Paul{Basic} [Search<Paul>Near Rome AND (not in Acts)] ???? - Example only!
See... I think all the symbols (I call hieroglyphics) that's in search now .... just causes confusion. Why add Bible Browser to anything... I actually think I am learning to use it a bit now... Thanks to Graham Criddle.... and MJ... Believe me... that is a biiiiig streeetccch for me to actually find help in my searches!!!
xn = Christan man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".
Barney Fife is my hero! He only uses an abacus with 14 rows!
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But it seems more complex questions ("When was Paul in Corinth?" or "Paul at Corinth" or "Paul in Athens") confuses it.
Google can handle that one:
I know, I know. Google is a $1.5 billion dollar company with 140,000 employees. But the field of questions about biblical knowledge does have more limitations than all of human knowledge indexed by Google. Questions beginning with "When..." should look for dates. I assume all dates are tagged. So dates near "Paul" and "Corinth" would be a good bet.
I also found that FL Assistant doesn't do very well with "Where is..." I asked it "Where is Tel Dan?" and it brought up the Factbook entry for the book of Daniel. I tried putting "Tel Dan" into quotation marks and same thing. It did better with "Where is Jerusalem?" (Factbook entry for Jerusalem) But if I want to know where Jerusalem is, not merely what it is, I would expect a map to be opened up to Jerusalem.
There's definitely room for improvement, even without becoming a full-blown fount of all knowledge like Google.
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