Where Logos is Headed

Congratulations! Everything that comes in the direction of expanding and improving is welcome. One suggestion from my experiences with Logos is to look beyond the technology. What I mean is that technology is just a machine doing calculations according to what it was programmed to do. Relationships are more important because without them there will be no technology, without speaking a single language there will be no technology and no users for it. Logos fails to have information that we often need, this needs to be seen and simplified as much as possible. People like simple and objective things, that's a fact. When a user needs information, the attendants don't always have it or it's not always easy to find or they simply don't exist, at least that's what they gave me when I asked for the list of resources within a Logos package that was no longer sold. It seems like they make the cake and then throw the recipe away. All I want is to look for something and find it where it belongs. If I go to an ice cream parlor, I want to find ice cream in different flavors and the traditional ones cannot be missing. If I go to the bakery the same way I want to find bread... Anyway, I hope I have cooperated for some growth in Logos...

DominicM

Having been with you since logos 1 on floppy disk days, in a fast paced world where data is power and currency, the singular direction of move to more online/cloud only features has always concerned me.

When persecution comes my fear is sadly Logos may despite the thousands I have invested become a useless paperweight, and a foolish investment gone in the ether, and all that data maybe compromised too
My biggest fear is your services being permanently "unavailable" as they are often to me, (I don't permanently connect to the internet), version by version a lot of your SaaS requires more and more connectivity even for basic functionality.

While, yes, I am marginally paranoid, to the extent of routinely encrypting probably 60+% of data I know is headed to your server.
It is a matter of record I have always been against this over-reliance on DBaaS/SaaS and Server side processing, and am unlikely to change my tune anytime soon, but I truly look forward to what the future brings, however, am sadly resigned to even less offline functionality in the trade off

Brian Davidson

we can and will do more to earn and deepen trust among seminaries and Bible colleges

I am glad to hear this!

renewed attention to things that are at the heart of our vision. First and foremost, this means we’re continuing our commitment to improving and expanding the Logos app so it meets the needs of Christians around the world.

Love the idea of renewed attention to making Logos better.

I like what I've seen over the last 18 months - both the refocusing on the key product and the commitment to squashing of bugs. I've been impressed with the effort that has gone into new designs and the attention to the non-expert user. My top two concerns going forward:

please broaden your focus to ensure you support liberal, progressive, liturgical, international, and non-traditional Christian Churches. It improves the product for everyone not just members of those traditions.
please set aside time to work on data correction and incomplete data issues. Many great features remain essentially unusable because of incomplete data.

Beloved Amodeo

If you’ve been paying attention, you may have noticed some slight changes in the Logos app and here in the forums, starting with a new blue Logos logo. This is representative of more expansive changes for us as a company—changes that help us refocus on our vision to increase biblical literacy for every Christian around the world.

Many of our teams have been working for well over a year now on plans to bring the Logos brand back to the forefront. Today, I’ll share the big picture of what that means for the future of Logos.

1. Focus

This sentence is the foundation for all we’re doing:

Logos exists to empower believers everywhere to go deeper in their Bible study through a fusion of biblical content and powerful technology, because we believe a deeper relationship with God comes through knowing the Word.

In short, we’re refocusing on what we do best—serving you by building technology that empowers you for deeper study in God’s Word.

Although you may have a plain and simple reason for presenting this information to forum followers, I'm a bit mystified as to your motivation and timing for this announcement. Are we about to see a hard pivot on any of the three areas you identified? Do you have plans to substantially affect the product line?

Something you didn't mention that appears to be a welcome focus of revision is the software's search facility. In addition to this the software's ability to present maps and graphics would be a welcome area of focus for improvement.

Also, broadening the software's capacity on the mobile app is another area that would benefit users. Thanks for your interest in keeping us informed.

You are a smart man! Please 🙏 improve graphics to match or be better than the competition! With Accordance graphics, you can click on an image, and it automatically enlarges the image in a separate pop up window. Even Olive Tree which I started using recently does the same thing.

Logos/Libronix used to do the same, now it doesn’t (only a handful of images do that). Why Logos stopped doing that and neglected their images/graphics I don’t know, but it was definitely a bad idea.

If you could bring back the ability to click on an image and have the image become bigger in a pop up window that would put you light years ahead of the competition, but until then, myself and others included will continue to invest in other apps so we can get what we used to have with you guys before.

Anyway, hope you can reconsider this 👍😁👌 Keep up the good work!

DAL

I totally agree. In the past, I bought the Glow Bible, there were 4 CDs, to install it, an internet connection was required. They just closed and let me down, without even presenting an offline installer, today I have the software and it doesn't install. In fact, someone managed to crack it to be able to use it and if I want to install it today, it has to be cracked, unfortunately. I tried to get in touch and there was never a response, the communication channels were completely closed. Now imagine my fear since I am not North American. I firmly believe that Logos should provide a way for us to have a secure offline copy or something. There is still the problem that many features only work online. Complicated.

I give a million votes for this. Logos is too small in its graphics tool. I cannot measure a direct distance from one place to another on the map and stick to the mark on the screen. I would like to use the maps that come in the books too instead of the one online. If it's not online it won't work. Actually Accordance is much better than Logos in this regard.

Although you may have a plain and simple reason for presenting this information to forum followers, I'm a bit mystified as to your motivation and timing for this announcement. Are we about to see a hard pivot on any of the three areas you identified? Do you have plans to substantially affect the product line?

Good point. It is a bit of a mystery. Maybe it's just boilerplate for wide distribution.

The problem with mystery messages, they just induce questions. Is Verbum leaving. Or Verbum site. Or.

I'm a bit mystified as to your motivation and timing for this announcement.

My assumption (and nothing more) was that the (a) change in naming of the product/logo just released and (b) the June 30 cutoff for several products and (c) the change of name in the login made this a time when a reminder to much that has been said before, be repeated. Think of it as staving off a slew of questions for people who missed or don't remember previous announcements. I still expect the first week of July to bring many questions about naming and functions that no longer work.

Beloved Amodeo

I'm a bit mystified as to your motivation and timing for this announcement.

My assumption (and nothing more) was that the (a) change in naming of the product/logo just released and (b) the June 30 cutoff for several products and (c) the change of name in the login made this a time when a reminder to much that has been said before, be repeated. Think of it as staving off a slew of questions for people who missed or don't remember previous announcements. I still expect the first week of July to bring many questions about naming and functions that no longer work.

Seems like sense. Yet the problem is that save your assertion (a) none of these points are explicitly stated. I want that Vik make himself plain.

Edit:I'm sorry (c) is also highlighted. So, even more persuasive.

Beloved Amodeo

I'm a bit mystified as to your motivation and timing for this announcement.

My assumption (and nothing more) was that the (a) change in naming of the product/logo just released and (b) the June 30 cutoff for several products and (c) the change of name in the login made this a time when a reminder to much that has been said before, be repeated. Think of it as staving off a slew of questions for people who missed or don't remember previous announcements. I still expect the first week of July to bring many questions about naming and functions that no longer work.

Seems like sense. Yet the problem is that save your assertion (a) none of these points are explicitly stated. I want that Vik make himself plain.

Edit: This is a duplicate post that I tried to delete. Pay it no mind!

Allen Browne

we’re refocusing on what we do best—serving you by building technology that empowers you for deeper study in God’s Word

Brilliant! Exactly right.

we’re continuing our commitment to improving and expanding the Logos app so it meets the needs of Christians around the world

Thank you. That's what it's all about. And thanks for including us who live on the other side of the world.

The brand you’ll see and engage with will be Logos

Love it! "Logos" is the known brand. Makes it easier for us to promote.

We appreciate the way you keep developing this tech to empower all who study God's revelation of himself to us.

Donovan R. Palmer

Bravo! It is refreshing to read vision being cast!

If I may suggest a few things that I hope get some love in the focusing effort.

The Atlas has so, so, so much potential. It was off to a great start in the early days of Logos but is not very compelling. Accordance, though they have not changed their mapping module in many years, is still light years ahead. I use it all the time. Can the Atlas be reimagined in your roadmap of the future?

Similarly with graphics. The graphics viewer seems so clumsy. It would be great to see photos tagged with the map that you could see them in context. Would it be possible to start with a blank piece of paper and redesign something from the ground up?

Last, one of the most exciting things back in version 2 was archeology resources. Can someone build a big bridge back to Biblical Archaeology Review? Having their magazine as part of our journals was awesome. Even to this day, their issues pop up in my cited by tool, giving me fascinating insights into passages of scriptures from recent discoveries. I think I read there is an archeology data set in development and I am really looking forward to this. The connections to things being published on today brings another level of life and excitement to studies.

I suggest these on the basis that visuals has become so much part of our culture. I love the data sets, but would it be possible to work on Logos also being visually impactful when it comes to studies, beyond just a collection of static cards and advertisements? Seeing a picture, a map, a timeline, really adds to the learning process. Maybe the home page should be more geared towards being a launch pad or dashboard of studies to workspaces, graphics, maps, etc?

Keep up the great work! I love the speed, stability and the refinements you have made in version 10. Logos for Mac has come a very, very long way!

Mal Walker

Today, I’ll share the big picture of what that means for the future of Logos.

Thanks for taking the time to share with us directly Vik. This message could have been delivered by others under you, but your willingness to engage with your users yourself is commendable.

It's also helpful for us to see the big picture. Good to know that Logos isn't aimless as it moves forward! Moreover, those who are on the forum regularly aren't just here because they don't have anything better to do, but because they care about software, and perhaps more importantly, care about the people using it. For us to be able to make suggestions and give feedback to Logos, it's so important that we know what you are trying to achieve. I'm grateful we have some more insight into that now.

Mattillo

You are a smart man! Please 🙏 improve graphics to match or be better than the competition! With Accordance graphics, you can click on an image, and it automatically enlarges the image in a separate pop up window. Even Olive Tree which I started using recently does the same thing.

Logos/Libronix used to do the same, now it doesn’t (only a handful of images do that). Why Logos stopped doing that and neglected their images/graphics I don’t know, but it was definitely a bad idea.

If you could bring back the ability to click on an image and have the image become bigger in a pop up window that would put you light years ahead of the competition, but until then, myself and others included will continue to invest in other apps so we can get what we used to have with you guys before.

Anyway, hope you can reconsider this 👍😁👌 Keep up the good work!

DAL

Yes! More layman tools, interactives, etc.

Stephen

As a total layperson (not a student, teacher, SS teacher, etc.) who has spent many thousands of dollars over 10+ years I will say I am a big fan of the software and the company. I continue to buy resources each year and grow the system. Over the years there have been various announcements such as this and I used to get all worked up each time. My biggest fear being that everything would become cloud based/cloud only/SaaS/subscription based without the ability to download your materials and do everything offline. But each time, it all seemed to work out fine for the most part. Yes, there are now things that you must have an internet connection to use (Maps...) and I wish they would change that, I really do.

But, I am going to try not to worry about what this new re-focus focus means and just trust they will do right by everyone. I know many users, based upon the forums, are international and have spotty connectivity at best so going too far with cloud would kill them. I agree with another response that the bug killing has become much better and the performance of the software seems to improve each major release. It is nice to have software such as this.

John Kaess

I've been with Logos since 2.0 back in the 90's. I've seen many many things get so much better than i'd ever expected or hoped. I'm appreciative of what you've done to improve my Bible Study and teaching.

The remaining weakness that permeates Logos software is Graphics and Atlas. In this single area, you are years behind the competition. I'd really like to see you focus on this area for the next few years and at least try and be equivalent to what other Bible Software apps offer.

John Kaess

David Thomas

Vik,

Thank you for the hard decisions to FOCUS on your core. As someone who bought into Ministry Tracker BEFORE the Equip experiment, I must admit that dealing with Servant Keeper Tech Support is Day & Night WORSE than when Faithlife supported the ChMS program!

I've been with Logos since 2.0 back in the 90's. I've seen many many things get so much better than i'd ever expected or hoped. I'm appreciative of what you've done to improve my Bible Study and teaching.

The remaining weakness that permeates Logos software is Graphics and Atlas. In this single area, you are years behind the competition. I'd really like to see you focus on this area for the next few years and at least try and be equivalent to what other Bible Software apps offer.

John Kaess

I agree

The remaining weakness that permeates Logos software is Graphics and Atlas. In this single area, you are years behind the competition. I'd really like to see you focus on this area for the next few years and at least try and be equivalent to what other Bible Software apps offer.

I don't disagree; I've been a major critic. But investment-wise, Logos (Libronix Research, Faithlife, etc) has put a lot of effort into graphics, each time losing interest. I think 3 1/2 mapping versions. Image display resources (at L4). As DAL mentions, zoomables in Libby. I get the feeling, there's sort of a stubbornness! Ok, reluctance to just 'do it'.

One thing I couldn't forget is to provide a certain delivery date for books that are inside the packages. I bought a package last year in October (Logos 10 Platinum - English) and until today the remaining 9 volumes of a set of 12 volumes have not been made available. The first 3 were made available in April of that year.

Don Awalt

One thing I couldn't forget is to provide a certain delivery date for books that are inside the packages.

If we are going to that discussion, how about the infamous Evangelical Exegetical Commentary? Introduced in fall 2010, 1st volume ships in June 2011, over 12 years ago! 44 volumes, 13 have shipped. I actually got an email solicitation to buy the package this past week - that's a rather impudent sales tactic for a series that very likely won't be completed in my lifetime - yet with the money paid up front!

The books out so far (13) are of good quality, as I have bought them individually. The project is a noble one. But why sell a series that will take a lifetime to fulfill? I assume people have invested in the series 12 years ago, why hold all their money? This seems to me to be a blatantly mercenary action - maybe the worst I can remember Logos ever undertaking. It might be a nice step for the 'new regime' to tangibly show that Logos' customers are important, and that some practices of the 'prior regime' are being kicked to the curb, so to speak.

There are several timelines graphics, charts and maps that can barely be read because the graphics are bad! So yes, improving the graphics will make a bunch of us very happy 😃

DAL

how about the infamous Evangelical Exegetical Commentary?

That's below the belt, Don. The example is so egregious, it can't possibly be representative. Smiling.

xnman

One of the things that has impressed me with Logos is their attention to updating the product quickly. One example of that is the updated Search function that appeared with Logos 10. The team gets kudos from me on that.

I also appreciate how the Logos team interacts in the forums in answering questions and suggestions with people like me finding answers in how to use Logos. Kudos again!

Thanks.

Harold Curtis

Thanks for the effort to supply the ongoing information. Much appreciated.

As with many of the other replys to this announcement of focus or refocus, I'll convey my concern of perhaps too much emphasis on cloud-based solutions. Those working at seminaries and universities may not comprehend the spotty connection to the internet that countless people around the world face, or of "filtered" information due to politics. This is all too real and does nothing to "empower believers everywhere to go deeper in their Bible study." In part, I'd imagine, these online features are to make the mobile apps and cross-platform features deeper and more seamless. Understandable, but PLEASE don't overlook the drawbacks and limitations this presents.

And speaking of the mobile app, please make Personal Books both accessible in and downloadable to mobile devices.

Blessing!

Mattillo

One thing I couldn't forget is to provide a certain delivery date for books that are inside the packages.

If we are going to that discussion, how about the infamous Evangelical Exegetical Commentary? Introduced in fall 2010, 1st volume ships in June 2011, over 12 years ago! 44 volumes, 13 have shipped. I actually got an email solicitation to buy the package this past week - that's a rather impudent sales tactic for a series that very likely won't be completed in my lifetime - yet with the money paid up front!

The books out so far (13) are of good quality, as I have bought them individually. The project is a noble one. But why sell a series that will take a lifetime to fulfill? I assume people have invested in the series 12 years ago, why hold all their money? This seems to me to be a blatantly mercenary action - maybe the worst I can remember Logos ever undertaking. It might be a nice step for the 'new regime' to tangibly show that Logos' customers are important, and that some practices of the 'prior regime' are being kicked to the curb, so to speak.

LCC as well. Doug has been great keeping us updated but both OT and NT are still incomplete. I’m hoping logos can finish what they have before starting new

danwdoo

One key thing we’ve already done is expand globally (Logos 10 is available in eight languages), and we will continue to make Logos available, accessible, and affordable internationally.

First and foremost, this means we’re continuing our commitment to improving and expanding the Logos app so it meets the needs of Christians around the world.

As someone outside the US working in multiple languages, I am very encouraged to here this focus, but there needs to be some huge improvements in this area. One example is the Bible in Russian, a major language spoken by hundreds of millions around the world (many outside Russia itself). While I'm thankful that the Russian Bible is in Logos, it's only the single 1956 edition that is available.

Most smaller languages I work with have no Bibles available in Logos at all, while other competing software such as Olive Tree has multiple Russian Bible versions alone that are much more up to date. Add to that is a rather wide selection of smaller languages that have versions available as well. I hope this area sees some real progress in the near future, as I can't imagine anyone in many regions of the world (such as mine) finding any value in a product that does not offer even the most basic needs of their language, which starts with at least a single reasonably up to date Bible translation.

You can’t read this timelines or maps with Logos but you can with Accordance and Olive Tree

You can’t read this timelines or maps in Logos but you can with Accordance and Olive Tree

Even in the forums you can’t insert an image without screwing up your text!

Graphics, Vik, graphics need your attention. Bob drifted away from them or whoever made the decision and now Logos is suffering from graphics failure and chaos!

Please, fix the graphics! 👍😁👌

This and other threads address the image basic functions that Logos doesn’t have anymore: https://community.logos.com/forums/p/177487/1262931.aspx#1262931

DAL

Ps. Here’s my main thread on clickable images: https://community.logos.com/forums/t/186897.aspx

Wilson Hines

As someone who's been on the Logos block since 1.x with floppies, my greatest wish is that Logos would refocus on their initial market of orthodoxy and conservative literature. Go woke or go broke isn't just a cute phrase. I've spent less on Logos the past four or five years as the resources push further and further to the left. I don't find myself in the forums much anymore simply because I don't fit anymore. I don't even feel comfortable making this comment, as the replies from others could be nothing short of leftest bullies. It would be great to see Logos go back to their roots.

Go woke or go broke isn't just a cute phrase.

Be saved and go woke, Wilson. Like in the Bible. And you'll feel more comfortable! Buy more books too. (I'm a leftist bully regarding 'woke' from the dead.)

Stephen

As someone who's been on the Logos block since 1.x with floppies, my greatest wish is that Logos would refocus on their initial market of orthodoxy and conservative literature. Go woke or go broke isn't just a cute phrase. I've spent less on Logos the past four or five years as the resources push further and further to the left. I don't find myself in the forums much anymore simply because I don't fit anymore. I don't even feel comfortable making this comment, as the replies from others could be nothing short of leftest bullies. It would be great to see Logos go back to their roots.

I don’t think I understand this at all. What resources are you talking about? As for me, I’ve spent more in the last several years than prior.

as the replies from others could be nothing short of leftest bullies

I am exactly one of those people you don't want to hear from - first, I hate the current pop use of "woke" and second, I dislike name calling. I also see "left" as a political term not a theological term and enjoy the Logos forums because they are generally a haven from politics. But while you probably would not be comfortable in my actual living room, I am glad you feel free to state your opinion in this metaphorical living room. (I've been with Logos since 2.x.) And I am glad that you show your preferences with your wallet - the most appropriate way.

John Brumett

I have seen several references in this post to map and graphic improvements. After 20 years I still haven't seen the ability to simply take a Bible and link it to the proper map in context and click on a city and have it zoom in to the right map dealing with that city in the scripture verse. For example if I am in Joshua 6:1 I should be able to link my Bible with a set of maps and the Map for Jericho will pull up and if I click on Jericho the right map will zoom in the city.

Logos 4 maps were the best in the ability to pan and zoom. All map should have that ability. I should be able to use these maps offline. Start with the Carta Maps. I have developed over 30 personal books of most of the major Bible Atlases linking the maps in Biblical Order with a Bible. I would like to work with Logos to use my research to make Maps better. Here is a sample of what I have done that can be linked with a Bible to find the right map.

I should be able to link my Bible with a set of maps and the Map for Jericho will pull up and if I click on Jericho the right map will zoom in the city.

I don't see why you're complaining. I opened my Bible to Jos 6:1. Then I right-clicked the 'Jericho' word. Then I squinted to find 'place' on the left side. Then I selected Atlas. Then I waited. Then I looked at the nice map displayed ... where Abram and Lot met (actually near Bethel, but the Faithlife mapmaker was just sure, Lot went through Jericho ... maybe to help Joshua). How's that?!

You're right.

Donovan R. Palmer

I have seen several references in this post to map and graphic improvements. After 20 years I still haven't seen the ability to simply take a Bible and link it to the proper map in context and click on a city and have it zoom in to the right map dealing with that city in the scripture verse. For example if I am in Joshua 6:1 I should be able to link my Bible with a set of maps and the Map for Jericho will pull up and if I click on Jericho the right map will zoom in the city.

Logos 4 maps were the best in the ability to pan and zoom. All map should have that ability. I should be able to use these maps offline. Start with the Carta Maps. I have developed over 30 personal books of most of the major Bible Atlases linking the maps in Biblical Order with a Bible. I would like to work with Logos to use my research to make Maps better. Here is a sample of what I have done that can be linked with a Bible to find the right map.

Wow! Just one word. Wow! 👍😎🙂

Mark Barnes (Logos)

I truly look forward to what the future brings, however, am sadly resigned to even less offline functionality in the trade off

We certainly feel that trade-off between greater computing power in the cloud, but more control and availability locally. Where possible, we do want to ensure as much offline access as possible. At the same time, some innovations, such as the new experimental search, are currently only possible in the cloud.

Don Awalt

We certainly feel that trade-off between greater computing power in the cloud, but more control and availability locally.

Mark, regarding this comment from above:

The Logos app's internet use (e.g. the atlas) and the Logos forums web site have the two slowest response times of all my internet use.

Is there any chance something can be done for Logos' web site times? Logos sites have been near the worst on the internet for years, which is surprising to me since it's commercially hosted. It's better once in the site, navigating around, in some cases; in other cases, it's not. What are the chances Logos could really do some performance benchmarking/assessment so a plan to improve this could be developed? It wouldn't have to happen overnight, as we have been living with this. But it would be nice to know there is hope for the future.

I just did some tests - 1:15 PM local time, east coast, on a 1GB/40MB internet connection, MacBook Pro; all times are in seconds until the first glimpse of the page to be painted shows up (when stop watch was stopped). Cache was cleared:

Logos.com - 9

Logos Forums - 6

Adobe - 4

M&T Bank - 4

Disney - 2

Twitter - 2

Reddit - 2

Apple Support - 2

Wells Fargo Bank - 2

ESPN - 2

Parallels - 1

Family Radio - 1

Google Maps - 1

Morris Proctor Seminars - 1

Macrumors.com - 1

Xfinity forums - 1

Weather.us - 1

Amazon - 1

s there any chance something can be done for Logos' web site times? L

Agree. But one trick I learned, was to detach wifi, then re-attach wifi, during a Logos/forum take-forever load. It looks like it's the FL advert-server that being waited on. But I do avoid Logos.com due to the long waits. And spend too much time on the Big-A.

Stephen

I am hoping that search as it is today will be functional standalone without need for internet? As for innovation requiring the cloud, that might be true for something based upon a ChatGPT type of engine (for now...) but even today the Atlas certainly could and should be available offline. It is not a matter of computing power rather space which I can gladly make as much available as needed. Computing power wise, my M1 Pro can handle things pretty well.

John

I am hoping that search as it is today will be functional standalone without need for internet?

Now you have me wondering .... what parts of Logos are unable to function without a live internet connection?

Mark Barnes (Logos)

Is there any chance something can be done for Logos' web site times?

It is something we're aware of, and – believe it or not – we have made some improvements recently.

I agree that there's much more we can do, and we're in the middle of a major review of logos.com to see what improvements we should focus on next.

FWIW, one of the problems is that a huge amount of logos.com functionality relies on knowing what you already own, and that makes it extremely difficult for us to add web servers closer to our customers – because even if we did, those servers would need to communicate back to the central licensing server anyway. We've looked at setting up copies of our licensing server in additional regions, and that might happen one day. But it's not easy to have a single source of truth split into many different parts.

Mark Barnes (Logos)

I am hoping that search as it is today will be functional standalone without need for internet?

For our desktop software, we plan to continue to support offline search in the same way we do today. On mobile, we hope we might be able to improve offline search in the near future (no promises, though!).

But if we release our new experimental search, that will be online only. There's lots of AI magic that's only possible in the cloud. But that wouldn't replace any offline options – those would remain for those that wanted them.

Vic,

It is always good for a company to re-examine its goals and objectives from time to time, and this statement sounds really great...

However, this statement strikes me as utterly ridiculous, unless Logos/Faithlife is intending on radically changing what you offer. This is not a personal criticism of you, or anyone in the company. However, I think there is a significant and radical difference between the words posted here, and what Faithlife/Logos has been attempting to do for the last 20 years or so.

Logos exists to empower believers everywhere to go deeper in their Bible study...

It has been at least 15 years since I felt I could recommend Logos to people who want to "go deeper in their Bible Study." I began using Logos back with version 1. When Libronix came out, it was a huge leap forward in Bible software, and I found it to be pushing the limits of cost and complexity for the average Christian, though it was still accessible. From there, price and complexity continued to expand at an overwhelming, ever-increasing rate. 15 years ago, people on this forum would say, "Yeah, but this software is primarily for pastors and scholars, and pastors need to be willing to pay a premium, and spend significant time learning how to use the "tools of their trade."

At that point, I began getting incredulous looks from most non-professional Christians whom I would suggest Logos to. It was just too expensive. And, when people did buy it, and were not in a field of work where they used computers every day, most would express to me just how foolish they felt it was to have spent the money they did, for software that was largely useless to them. Pastors too, if they were from non-technical fields, were significantly frustrated.

"...and we will continue to make Logos available, accessible, and affordable internationally..."

Recommending Logos to missionaries and pastors in other countries was even more futile. Radically too expensive, and unworkably too complicated for most of them to use.

And over the last 15 years, the software has only RAPIDLY INCREASED in cost and complexity.

I believe that for nearly 20 years, the focus for the developers of Logos has been academia first, computer minded pastors second, and really no one else seemed to have a seat at the table. It was, and continues to be, a great tool for those who spend significant time doing significantly in-depth study, such that it is worth their time to learn the complexity of Logos, and to use what they've learned enough to remember how to use its vast features.

If the goal is to truly "empower Believers everywhere...", then I believe you will need to cut costs radically, and make the program far more intuitive and usable. And, for that to happen, it would indicate a significant change in direction, indeed. Right now, I know of very few Christians not in direct ministry who would be willing to pay for Logos, or who have found it useful to them, personally, or in organizing Bible Studies.

For what it's worth.

For what it's worth.

Agree with your writeup. There's some sort of 'wall' between marketing (selling, independent of goals), and app-development (design, independent of goals).

There's the book-producing-selling group (somewhere between 'prepubs', packages and sales). They're typically high-end. Low-end for novels and devotionals.

Then, you have your app-tinkering, with heavy emphasis on 'that's so cute'. Efficiency? Ease of use? Watch another video.

And finally, the make-a-list people (datasets) with periodic discoveries of too-complicated-ness.

But reallistically, I think they're stuck. Labor-wise.

And forum-wise, we're down to 2-3 people that know enough, to answer problems.

scooter

And forum-wise, we're down to 2-3 people that know enough, to answer problems.

This puts the bow on the knotty problem of how this rig works. These people are so kind, so patient; they simply amaze me. God bless those who answer.

I use 1 % of Logos. I'm just starting to use Search/Study/Look Up on the floating palette gizmo.

But, people who have to do work on it are stuck - those not computer aces. I feel badly for them, because they need to produce something on the rig weekly, or right now.

you have your app-tinkering, with heavy emphasis on 'that's so cute'. Efficiency? Ease of use? Watch another video

Another astute comment. For me, Fl is saying go jump in the lake, leave your credit card on the shore.

xnman

For what it's worth.

I also agree mostly with your write up. In other forum on Logos, I have argued that the complexity and sophistication of Logos causes a learning curve that many do not want to go through and simply will not. It's almost like the notion of having a very intelligent teacher that cannot relate to the students in the class. What good is the teacher at that point?

One caveat in all this is the Search function in Logos. I do believe that "when" Logos develops an "easy to use" and "easy to understand" Search function that will increase the value of Logos tremendously, at least with me. What good is the information in your library if you cannot find it?

Recently, I have seen posts that indicate that Mark Barnes and group have been working on a new Search function. This has been exciting news to me. Just think about it.... if we get a new and improved Search that actually works for the none biblically trained (non-preachers and such) that alone will help Logos beyond measure with a lot of people. When this happens, then we will be able to find that piece of information that used to take us "learning Search every time we used it". What a blessing to all users will a new Search be! I'd almost be willing to kiss Mark Barnes' ring for that alone!!! [8-|]

About the cost.... "a laborer is worthy of his wages".... but how much? I do think Logos is the best bible program going.... and I would like it to be around for a lone time.... but if the costs (wages which I pay) are extravagant... well that's another matter. The problem with this is.... I am not in a position to say what is extravagant ... I can only pay for what I can afford and if I can't afford it or don't think I need it, I don't pay. I would like free Logos.... but I know that's out of the question. And I do know that Logos has payment plans to help.... I do think the prices are high.... but I don't know how much I would charge in the same set of circumstances.... so... I pay for what I think I need...

And last.... I came from WordSearch.... which is no longer around.... maybe because they were too cheap?

A serious question for Al, DMB, Scooter, and xnman: I don't have one of the free or basic levels of Logos installed so I can't see what Logos looks like/performs like with a package < $250. I agree that when one gets into the paid features, one quickly gets into complexity that those not comfortable with, e.g. Word, find intimidating. But would your description of the problem change if you looked only at the free engine and a handful of resources that stay under $250?

Or put another way, if you spend > $1500 on your software, shouldn't you expect to have to put effort into learning to use it?

Donovan R. Palmer

@Al Het

You make some great observations. My trail does not go back as far as yours, mine being to Series X - Scholars Library! Because I started way back then, I bought in during pre-pubs and new version releases over the years as they came out, so I in effect 'grew up' with Logos, I have a huge library after many years and I cannot imagine what it would be like if I started over today. I think it would feel like an overwhelming mountain to climb.

With that said, I can say this, had I not had Logos when I lived in Africa for a while, I would not have been able to do some formal studies. Logos provided me an electronic virtual seminary library for studies which I could not have accessed any other way. Though the challenge at that time was that Logos decided that they were no longer shipping products on CD ROM, so we needed to download materials. This was fine, but because Logos would roll out 3 or 4 GB updates, a small book of 25mb would be queued up behind those updates. On the African internet that I had at the time, this was a real hardship because our internet was so slow. If you go back far enough in these forum messages, you will see some messages where I was begging Bob Pritchard to allow us to selectively update materials because those of us in poor internet connections were happy to wait for the updates, we just desperately needed a few books for our studies. Nothing changed and I managed with our crummy internet, but the point is even back then Logos was targeting a specific academic market in developed situations.

In my mind, Logos' primary market has generaaly been this academic fairly serious crowd. Of all my friends that I know, none of them own Logos and use it actively, except for one, which is someone who is studying at a theological school. It is just too expensive and why would you want to spend a few grand for a decent library in Logos unless you were a professional or student? In my mind, this is why the 'social media' features of Logos have never taken off and Logos will likely never be fully mainstream. Why, because there are other projects which appeal to my friends much better, particularly if they are low cost or free. For example, I just learned of the STEP Bible. (which by the way has a pretty decent Atlas!). There is also E-Sword and if you dig around there are a handful of other small apps for the general public which are free or low cost.

Then you have more specialised products like Accordance and BibleWorks. As much rivalry as there has been between Accordance and Logos, they have always been different products. If you are a hard core textual studies person, there is a LOT going for you with Accordance, but sadly we do not have BibleWorks anymore. Accordance does things with ease with textual studies and exegetics, and I am deeply concerned we will eventually lose it, leaving a gap.

The point is, in the Bible Software market it has always been hard to compare apples to apples. Products whether literally or not, tend to appeal to different audiences. Logos has always had a huge library orientation, and can certainly do some solid exegetical work - theology students and some pastors will love this. Accordance/BibleWorks really appealed to the hard core Biblical languages nerds. When I go all in on Greek, I love to boot it up to dig around the scriptures. It is a different product than Logos.

Then there are a whack of products out there that are more 'mainstream'. It could be argued that Logos does span a bit more into mainstream or has been a mainstream wanna be with its social networking and approachable format, but it is a serious and expensive option. Then there is all the other stuff out there that satisfies my wife, kids and many friends. They won't pay a lot, nor use it every day, but love having it on their phone or laptop for when they do.

So, as Logos moves forward, I think they just need to continue to keep real about who they are reaching. They might not meet the hard core language people, but they will likely not reach the free or next to free basic english packages out there. That is ok. We need different kinds of products for each of these use cases!

And forum-wise, we're down to 2-3 people that know enough, to answer problems.

Perfect way to make the point about the complexity, for sure.

I do think the prices are high.... but I don't know how much I would charge in the same set of circumstances.... so... I pay for what I think I need...

And last.... I came from WordSearch.... which is no longer around.... maybe because they were too cheap?

Your points are well taken.

I don't intend to be critical of the price Faithlife/Logos or any other company charges, or of the nature of the product (complexity, in this case). They are in the business of selling something to someone(s). The purpose of my comment here was to point out that the nature and direction of Logos in both cost and complexity seems at significant odds with the goals Vic shared in the first post, of aiding Believers everywhere.

It is great, and has significant value to offer software that can do huge amounts of things with Scripture. However, as a pastor, I quit recommending it to people in the congregation nearly 25 years ago, and quit recommending it to missionaries and foreign pastors shortly after.

It is great software for some scholars, but I believe that less than half the pastors I know would say they have tried Logos and find it wholly unuseful for them.

So, as Logos moves forward, I think they just need to continue to keep real about who they are reaching. They might not meet the hard core language people, but they will likely not reach the free or next to free basic english packages out there. That is ok. We need different kinds of products for each of these use cases!

I agree. That was sort of my point. It just seems inconsistent with the stated goal in the first post about helping all believers everywhere.

Sorry about the multiple replies. Not sure how better to respond to a few different posts in one.

As the guy who accidentally started the negative spiral on this thread (I think), I feel the need to jump in here. For a very long time, we have seen this debate. Any time anyone brings up the complexity of the program, we have the usual drumbeat of how great the complexity of Logos is (because this means it's for smart people to do hard things, and OTHER software in other fields are overly complex too and they are great...), countered by how it would be better if it were only more intuitive, followed by, what is intuitive for one is complex for the other, and on and on, which always devolves to how bad it is for searching (It's good because it is so complex that if you know all the specific codes to us, it can find very obscure things most people wouldn't search for - it's bad because I can't find simple passages/resources/whatever...

This thread might well be a good place to continue that debate, as it is the one where Logos has expressed its future objectives as a company. I'm hoping that within the debate people would try to find some new context and argumentation to move the discussion forward, but debate is generally good.

As for me, my point was related to the original message, with the specific statement of objectives for the company.

Logos exists to empower believers everywhere to go deeper in their Bible study through a fusion of biblical content and powerful technology, because we believe a deeper relationship with God comes through knowing the Word.

My point is, as a pastor, it has been perhaps 20 years since I have found Logos to be helpful "to empower believers everywhere to go deeper..." because any package that that has the resources to be helpful for most believers is too expensive for most believers, and it's level of complexity is more than most believers will be willing to learn and continue to use. In fact, it has been my experience that most Pastors don't think it is not worth their time and money.

If you are a power user, whose church is willing to spend big money for your Bible software, and you like the intricacies of Logos, and owning tens of thousands of books you won't read, that's great. I absolutely think it is good that Logos provides a tool for you. However, I would disagree with Logos being similar to MS Word in regard to being able to do more simple tasks simply and more complex tasks with further research. I just simply have not found basic users to find it simple or affordable for them.

However, I would disagree with Logos being similar to MS Word in regard to being able to do more simple tasks simply and more complex tasks with further research. I just simply have not found basic users to find it simple or affordable for them.

May I ask what may seem obvious, but isn't obvious to me. What resources do you consider essential for a basic user and what is the approximate price for them? and what tasks do you expect a basic user to use.

If I were looking at my own tradition, the average paid parish employee including diocesan clergy could go "all in" for $250 (St. Paul Center Verbum Library 1 – St. Paul Center (stpaulcenter.com)) which includes more than most would need. Very few would need original language features, most would need little more than building collections, linking resources, layouts, notes, power lookup, information panel, factbook, and the homily builder/lesson builder. Yes, I have intentionally omitted the search. What they would need is patience with the incomplete tagging on sermons etc., the limitation of a single passage under study at a time, the poor implementation of liturgical date, . . . For the average parishioner, the basic resources and the free engine should get them in for something close to $100.

ReformedDoc

If you are a power user whose church is willing to spend big money for your Bible software, and you like the intricacies of Logos and owning tens of thousands of books you won't read, that's great. I think it is good that Logos provides a tool for you. However, I would disagree with Logos being similar to MS Word regarding being able to do more simple tasks simpler and more complex tasks with further research. I just simply have not found basic users to find it simple or affordable for them.

As I retired pastor I hear your words loud and clear, there was I time that I got caught up in building a large library so over the years I ended up with resources I never use. I have had Logos since about 2000 and used to chat with Bob P. weekly, so I am not in any way new to the program, I also have a good grip on how to use it. But these days my focus is the original languages and searches in the other brand's software are way less complex and more intuitive.

May I ask what may seem obvious, but isn't obvious to me. What resources do you consider essential for a basic user and what is the approximate price for them?

That's a great question, and probably not obvious at all.

I have a list of recommendations for a basic, useful set of tools that I recommend every Christian own. Really, it is a simple list that would largely cover an "average Christian," all the way up to Bible study leaders, and even Elders and Deacons. It actually only consists of a handful of basic tools.

1. I think every serious Christian should have 3 modern, trustworthy, well established, highly reputed of versions of the Bible. I have my list of trustworthy versions, and of course others have theirs. For a non-original language trained Christian, I think ANY TIME A PASSAGE IS BEING STUDIED SERIOUSLY, there is great value to comparing/using at least 3 versions. I would tell people that buying Bible software without being able to compare 3 solid translations on the same screen at once is a significant miss.

2. I think every serious Christian should have access to 2 modern, trustworthy, well established whole Bible commentaries. This too is very valuable for any serious study of a particular passage. Again, there will be plenty of argument about which commentaries are trustworthy, and I have my list...

3. I think every serious Christian should have access to 2 modern, trustworthy, well established Bible dictionaries. On top of this, I would STRONGLY recommend a Bible encyclopedia, for topics you want to gain a deeper understanding in than the dictionaries will provide.

4. Finally, I think every serious Christian who buys Bible Software should be able to search the Bible for verses they can't remember well, or passages related to particular topics they are interested in. Of course, Bible dictionaries/encyclopedias will usually provide passages on most topics. Also, something like a Naves Topical Bible would also suffice in this way. Perhaps the biggest question I get asked from laypeople who have Logos is, "How do I find verses that I can't remember exactly." Of course, I've taken to telling them to google it, which actually works pretty well, but should not be better than a dedicated Bible software.

So, I just looked, and no package offers these resources (at least the first 3) for under $1,000. And while you talk about the "free version," I didn't see that on the website. I'm sure it exists, and I'm sure Faithlife/Logos doesn't want to highlight that as an easily available option. The first one I see listed is the "Starter" package which costs $295. This price is probably a massive dis-incentive for most people already. Then, they would need to add a few resources, maybe another $100. I could imagine strongly encouraging people to pay $300 for Bible software, if I felt like it would instantly be very useful for them. However, most laypeople I know who have bought Logos in the last decade don't use it because it is not very inviting or "intuitive" for them.

This is the down side to the closing of all those other companies that offered more basic Bible software. Nearly all of those had software for under $100 that would have several modern, solid translations, a couple of Bible dictionaries, the Bible Knowledge commentary and the New Bible Commentary, a great map set, and a simple search feature. I know lots of people who LOVED Parsons, or Bibleworks, or others. Of course, these programs would be much less useful to people who roam these forums, but were great for the average Christian. There apparently wasn't enough of a market for them, but it is too bad.

EastTN

. . . For the average parishioner, the basic resources and the free engine should get them in for something close to $100.

I think this is the person that many of us have in mind. In the congregation I attend, most of the members do their daily Bible reading out of a study Bible, and likely supplement it with a devotional of some kind. And that's pretty much it. They may have a Bible dictionary or a one-volume commentary. I'm not going to recommend Logos to any of them - not even the free version. It's just too much and doesn't meet their needs. I'm not criticizing anyone, because I've been that person. But what they really need for the next step in their Bible study is a basic app that gives them access to multiple versions of the Bible, has a convenient basic search function, lets them look up words in a dictionary and concordance, has a basic Bible dictionary, and allows them to read a commentary alongside their Bible when they're ready to step up to that. (To put this in context, I've tried to introduce my college-educated lifetime Christian daily Bible reading spouse to Logos a couple of times over the years, and it's been a complete non-starter.)

There are a number of simple Bible apps out there, and we have several people in the congregation who're using them on their phones. Others are using the Kindle app. And quite honestly, that meets their needs just fine. I can only think of one member of the congregation that I'd recommend Logos to, and that's because he's expressed an interest in preaching when he retires.

The folks I'm talking about are a huge potential market. But in my judgment, reaching them would require either a slimmed down "Logos Lite" that looks much more like a basic Bible app, or a user interface that does a dramatically better job of hiding all the complexity.

CRBoone

"And while you talk about the "free version," I didn't see that on the website. I'm sure it exists, and I'm sure Faithlife/Logos doesn't want to highlight that as an easily available option. The first one I see listed is the "Starter" package which costs $295."

This is why, in my previous post, I recommended that Logos reverse their emphasis on the home page to the software and various package levels over the digital bookstore. There are so many offerings that the "free/less expensive" versions are somewhat buried. They aren't entirely buried but there's so much focus on all the packages and digital resources that it can still be overwhelming and presents Logos as only beneficial if you commit a lot of financial resources.

However, I did think of a better way to do so without having to "move" the digital bookstore sales and offerings off of the front page. All they would need are 3 nice, colorful tabs across the top of the front page. One for "Basic/Beginner Users", one for "Intermediate Users" and another for "Advanced Users" -- and if someone is just starting out, they could click on the appropriate tab(s) and be taken to a page for more information on each of the levels. There needs to be something that specifically directs people to those levels, especially for new potential users IMO so that they can see that they don't need to fork out $500+ just to get started with a decent application. Then they can decide later whether to upgrade or purchase more resources. Some may not, but others certainly would if they see the value through experience.

So, I just looked, and no package offers these resources (at least the first 3) for under $1,000.

That's a good list for a library, and good points. My 'go to' for software for normal Christians remains Olivetree. Though, at least for a while, they were having their issues.

I do wonder where 'the Church' is these days (I think Nathan, over at Accordance, also). Is it mainly devotional+Bible-class? Or huge churches with a good message each week? I saw an article (true/not) indicating TV church'ing is up. I also suspect immigrant populations will be a good market, years hence.

My interest in this thread isn't myself (I like high-end OL). But if FL is to grow, and after maybe 5 more years of academic expansion, and closing-Bible software apps, where's the growth (aka payroll money)? More gadgets isn't going to attract more customers; easier access will.

Graham Criddle

So, I just looked, and no package offers these resources (at least the first 3) for under $1,000.

Did you come across https://www.logos.com/product/228264/logos-10-fundamentals ?

If you, maybe, added another Bible to it, it seems to get close to what you are suggesting.

Madagoo

thanks Vik for that important update.

I would encourage you to increase the ability of logos to reach out to Islam - so adapting the software to deal with Arabic text ancient and modern and apologetics and polemics would be a significant broadening that will enable mission to Muslims world wide. Happy to broker relationship in this area. I also am looking forward to tools for my mission to jehovah's Witnesses coming online.

John

But these days my focus is the original languages and searches in the other brand's software are way less complex and more intuitive.

I assume that you are referring to Accordance? As a former Bibleworks user … I have tried to move on. I find that neither Acc or L10 is intuitive “for me”. They are both different from what I am accustomed to And thus each presents a learning curve.

Because I have invested in both programs, I hope for both of them to be successful. My impression so far is that L10 is a solid and stable program with superior resources. My experience has so far been limited to windows and iOS. On windows at least, Acc is buggy and prone to crashes. anytime I download or add a new resource it crashes. I have no personal experience with how it handles personal notes and data. But clearly those features are so bad that their forum has numerous threads about syncing problems, data loss and alternative note taking programs.

If you look at new features in v13 the big items were essentially copied from Bibleworks. v14 features include pie charts that look very much like the ones Logos already had. Seems the vision there is to copy what others are doing.

Maybe it is because of my lack of in-depth experience with both programs that I cannot figure out what you are talking about … can you explain a bit more in detail exactly what it is about Acc that is superior to L10 for original languages?

Thanks

I think the reason that other (older) Bible software programs seemed more "intuitive" is that they were not attempting to do NEARLY as many things as Logos does. Buried in a huge amount of features are the basic features a lighter user would want. It has to be easier to make intuitive software if you are only trying to do basic things with it.

The suggestion I have made many times before on these forums is that Logos offer 1 or 2 stripped down versions of the software. It should look and feel like the current version of Logos, with most of the more advanced features stripped away. I would think that the search feature would be more accurate and straight-forward if it is only searching basic resources. And, if the look and feel remain the same, as people upgrade to more complex packages, they will already have the basics down.

It seems to me like it would be easy to slash the code for the complex functions from the existing monstrosity, but I could be entirely wrong about that.

Maps and search have been a problem since the mid 90's. I bought a $40 dollar Parsons Bible Software program before I bought Logos in 1996. The search was easy, straight forward and accurate, and the maps were better than all the things Logos has offered in the last 25 years combined. Not even close. I kept trying to install that program newer Windows machines for more than a decade, just for the maps.

DMM

They could always create a "Logos Lite" version of the software, geared towards the more casual user. Meant more for just Bible reading and basic Bible study. Basic searching - search in a Bible or in a book. Compare passages. The Factbook. Maybe a few other things.

To keep it simple, just make it work the same way the Logos app and the Faithlife app work (or used to work, since they've sunset the Faithlife app). Your license works on both and you could even have both installed at the same time. Only suggestion would to have them "share" a library on the drive - i.e., it's only going to download the books once, not individually for both programs.

That allows someone who may feel overwhelmed and confused by all the extras to just use it in a more basic format, but then also allows them later to switch to the full experience if they want - it's not a separate product they are using.

It would be a good way of introducing someone to Logos.

EastTN

They could always create a "Logos Lite" version of the software, geared towards the more casual user. Meant more for just Bible reading and basic Bible study. Basic searching - search in a Bible or in a book. Compare passages. The Factbook. Maybe a few other things.

Perhaps it could even be a program setting rather than a separate program. Ideally it would be called something that wouldn't imply it was dumbing things down - maybe something like "streamlined interface" vs "full interface"?

John

They could always create a "Logos Lite" version of the software, geared towards the more casual user. Meant more for just Bible reading and basic Bible study. Basic searching - search in a Bible or in a book. Compare passages. The Factbook. Maybe a few other things.

I think they kinda have that already in the mobile software?