MWW said:

George Dean said:

My thought too. I have items in my cart. I can't press the button. Starting to think hard cover books might be the way to go. Hmmm

The problem is… if you have a fire… you are done! And then there is the problem of lending someone a book and never seeing it again!

We lost our home to fire a little over 5 years ago and I lost the majority of my paper library. What I didn’t lose is my Logos library. I am so blessed to have my Logos library and I plan to stay with Logos, as I feel they have been good to me. The lost books that I replaced through Logos cost nowhere near what they would have cost to replace in paper.

I own A lot of content for school and ministry and I will not be subscribing. With so many things moving to subscriptions, I am constantly evaluating which subscriptions to ditch. Netflix vs Prime vs Disney… comcast vs hotspot… and low Logos subscription vs free stuff vs what I’ve already got?

Subscription model will have the greatest impact on those who need to pinch the pennies for the slim years. This means Logos will cease to be supportive For bivocational Pastors like me.

I like ownership. I like the monthly free book. I like finding specific items by authors that I trust. I don’t want access to everything. This Ifeels like what I’ve invested in so far will no longer be a priority for Faithlife so this announcement is a huge loss For me As logos had become my favorite Bible study tool.

I truly hope that the subscription model will not become the main product but an optional one and that what I’ve invested in will be a thing that gets passed down from o the next generation, but that particular idea seems to be coming to an end.. 

I do recognize that profit is king in these decisions as this is a business not a Ministry. And tailoring to those wishing to pay money monthly will the be most bang for buck for the benefit of the business. But it’s a loss for me, who has really enjoyed the idea of a library that I own, tailored to my ministry, that will continue to grow as new resources are added. Its been an awesome ride. Sad to see it come to an end.

Dave Hooton said:

[The caveat is functionality/features that rely on AI. You do not lose access to your owned content like datasets, interlinears, Factbook, Notes tool. Nor will they cease to work as long as you update to the latest Logos software version (free). Ten years cannot be guaranteed, but Logos are committed to maintaining your current perpetual license.

The problem with the statement that Ten Years cannot be guaranteed and the fact that Logos has dropped features in the past is their advertising:

https://www.logos.com/ways-to-upgrade

See the statement about features:

Option 2: Feature Upgrade

Add the Features You’re Missing

You can upgrade your Logos without investing in additional books. Choose from upgrades including some or all new Logos features. Whichever you choose, those features are yours to keep forever.

It does NOT say you may have access to, or for as long as we support said feature.... It says forever! Which has always been the marketing - but has also been an issue, which is why many have issues with the new direction.... I was told the same with the Sermon File Addin, yet I do not have it any longer and had to upgrade to get access to the current Sermon function, which is not what I'd prefer....

Logos has shown no regard for honoring their marketing in the past and this is the concern going to subscription based with the "carrot" held in front of long time users who helped build Logos with their purchases, with the philosophy that they will only get all features with a subscription going forward.

The only features limitied to subscription should be AI related, or features that require subscription for online activity. To liimit new feature to that type of feature is also a failure to continue building a better product for ALL users. New Features can be added that do not require online costs along the AI lines.

I apologize if this has already been discussed. I am concerned about privacy. Will our notes be fed into the 3rd party AI service? Will we need to start taking notes outside of Logos to keep them private from a 3rd party AI service?

Mark Barnes (Logos) said:

If you subscribe today, you’ll get five new features (Smart Search, Search Results Summaries, Summarization Sidebar, Sermon Assistant, and Instant Dark/Light Mode).

I don't understand why a subscription would be required for instant dark/light mode.

Thank you! I did look to see if it had been mentioned, but there are 26 pages of posts so I missed it. 

Hi Mark/Phil -

Mark said: “We’re still thinking through what that means for purchasable feature sets, and we’d value your feedback on whether the option to purchase would be important to you, knowing that you’d miss out on all the AI and cloud-backed features along with regular updates. ”

Many posts here have addressed the non-Ai feature set that *could* operate offline on local PC. I do understand that subscriptions will in those cases modify the local PC engine but only “unlock” new features if the subscription is live. It’s easy to do programmatically - requires a live WiFi connection. But the point is - the code for that feature IS local, not cloud based. (Again, not AI).  Many posts have begged y’all to bundle those new local-PC features every year or two into a perpetual-license feature set as you’ve done in the past, so non-subscribers can purchase it.  Of course, the code in the engine on the PC is the same … there’s just a flag in the config file somewhere that says “permanent unlock” (versus subscription required).  I’ve written plenty of code myself that has those modes (plus scheduled end dates etc). 
I explained all that so other users get the picture. 

My question here is regarding IMPROVEMENTS to EXISTING features.  For example, many are aware how limited and awkward the current Notes feature is (including highlighting).  Y’all have said you are working on that.  So - WHEN you make improvements (aka fix frustrations) to EXISTING feature, are you at Logos able to tell us now that all THOSE fixes and improvements (local PC based) will *definitely* be offered periodically in bundled feature sets?  
That is, if we have the feature now but it works poorly, are non-subscribers ”stuck” with the L10 version of that particular feature forever? 

Mark Barnes (Logos) said:

Major improvements will certainly be delivered to subscribers only.

But I appreciate there's a grey area in the middle, and that's what you're asking about.

No doubt there will be occasions where we deliver small improvements to non-subscribers, perhaps particularly on those occasions where something feels broken. But the bulk of improvements will certainly be subscription only.

I feel better about this change whenever Phil posts (he's always been stellar in the forums) and worse about it when Mark does.

At some point I suggest you guys put your heads together, get everyone one on the same page, and figure out exactly what you're doing. Further belabouring of the points is going to reach the point where it brings more smoke than light until you can give concrete and certain specifics.

PLEASE!!!  FOR THE LOVE OF GOD!!!!!!!! DO NOT DO A SUBSCRIPTION MODEL!!!!!!

I want to own the stuff I buy... I don't want to rent it from you...

Mark Barnes (Logos) said:

Major improvements will certainly be delivered to subscribers only.

Thank you for your continued effort and time to answer our concerns and your patience. I just wanted to comment on the fact that for any customer who doesn't want to pay for subscriptions (but would still be willing to purchase new functions with a permanent license), there is no real future for their Logos Application. Furthermore, the more a customer has invested in this program and books in the past, the more they will feel obligated to switch to a subscription. It's disheartening that loyal customers are being rewarded in this manner! 

I'm always weighing whether something is a good, long-term investment of my resources.  If Logos moves towards subscription only for feature updates, then I will likely move away from the platform, although I have 10's of thousands of dollars invested in it.  I don't want to be dependent on a subscription-based service to access and fully use all my resources.  I also worry about the long-term future.  I want to be able to use my library in a full and robust way when disconnected from the internet.   

I understand the possible benefits of incorporating AI into Logos.  But I also worry about the risks.  We've seen in recent days how biased AI can be towards liberal opinions.  Won't that work itself into Logos results? Will we get specific data on which AI platform Logos is using?  

Sean said:

I feel better about this change whenever Phil posts (he's always been stellar in the forums) and worse about it when Mark does.

I don't agree with this statement. Both, Mark and Phil are trying their best to answer our questions and concerns. They could have just done what other companies do: who implement changes without consulting their customer base. I tried to read most of the comments in this thread and know one thing for sure: I am glad I am not Phil and Mark. 

Software licensing changes and FL needs to have sufficient resources to further develop Logos. We all want current features to improve (e.g., overall usability, Notes, Prayer Lists,...) and most of us also want new features (e.g., AI). In the past, I justified giving into my book addiction with the argument that I help FL improved Logos. Now, it looks like some leaner years might be ahead for me. I pray that FL will have the wisdom to cater for the diverse needs of their customer base, the size of the previous investment in Logos, and changing income situations of Logos users.

So, Mark, what's the specific timeline for resolving this? This month? April? October?

Steve Shelton said:

 I would rather be able to pay for new features.  Again there are some people who are on limited income.  It is a good possibility you will not retain them as customers. 

How is it possible to be able to pay for new features, but not able to pay for a subscription? 

I have thought long and hard about what my response to the core question about switching to a subscription-based model would be. If I were to share everything that I have thought, it would be a rather lengthy post to an already lengthy thread, so I will make it rather short and to the point (at least for me).

My great desire is to own everything that I might use in Logos so that it is readily available for my Bible study.

My great need is for Logos to always be there as a company with a product that I can use to aid in my Bible study.

I appreciate the honesty and willingness of both Phil and Mark to come to us, as users of Logos, for input as to what the future for Logos might be. Every other business that I use that has switched to a subscription model, did so without any input whatsoever from the customer base.

Technology changes through time, and while I might not like it, I understand that change is inevitable. Those who refuse to accept change are largely left behind. There has generally been little need for handwritten books since the invention of the printing press.

Therefore, I will continue to use Logos with the hope that what I purchase will continue to be mine, and that anything that I may receive through subscription will only help to improve the tools that I already have within Logos that I use to aid me in my Bible study.

One thing is for certain, I will not throw away all of the wonderful tools that I have within Logos just because they decide to change their business model. To do so would be rather foolish in my opinion.

Mark Allison said:

Steve Shelton said:

 I would rather be able to pay for new features.  Again there are some people who are on limited income.  It is a good possibility you will not retain them as customers. 

How is it possible to be able to pay for new features, but not able to pay for a subscription? 

There is a BIG difference, Mark.  Let's say that a collection of new features *could* be sold, as as been done in the past, for $150 one-time, to get a perpetual license to them.

But if the *only* means of accessing those features (ever) is to pay a $15 subscription every month forever and ever, then EVERY MONTH AFTER THE FIRST TEN MONTHS of rental, we are paying more and More and MORE for the same features.  

Sure, there might be other benefits to the subscription, like AI, which REQUIRE cloud access and ongoing costs ... unlike the features that were coded up and then completed.  But it should be obvious from the many responses here that many existing long-term customers don't want that extra stuff.

THAT's The Difference.

======

Okay, look, it appears from Mark Barnes' recent replies that WE ARE STUCK.  ALL future non-books stuff will be ONLY via subscription, even those non-online things that could be offered perpetually.  So, here is my SUGGESTION to make the best of a bad deal ...

Mark and Phil ... PLEASE create a FAIR-PRICE subscription alternative that ONLY funds new features that are NOT AI or cloud based.  And please make sure internally that you're using those funds just for those tasks.  Ideally, in the future, you'll realize how badly this decision has treated your customers, and then you can choose to immediately and retroactively provide perpetual licenses to all those who have been paying the subscription for these types of feature updates.  Otherwise, many of us will simply feel that we've been bilked, to put it mildly.  

Jim Dean said:

But if the *only* means of accessing those features (ever) is to pay a $15 subscription every month forever and ever, then EVERY MONTH AFTER THE FIRST TEN MONTHS of rental, we are paying more and More and MORE for the same features. 

Isn't that a lot like saying it's cheaper to buy Microsoft Word 1.0 for $500 than it is to pay $10/month for an Office365 subscription? If I'm still using Word 1.0 that I purchased in 1989, then I've saved a lot of money. But nobody does that, especially not most of the avid Logos users who post on these forums. 

Subscription vs. 1-time purchase:

Using simple finance principles, we can convert a subscription price into a 1-time purchase price. To estimate this equivalent 1-time purchase, I first need to give an analogy.

Let’s say you put $1000 in a bank and the bank pays you interest @5% per year. That means you will receive $50/year forever into the future. That means that you will be indifferent between receiving $50/year forever into the future and receiving $1000 today. You won’t say that one option is better than the other option. So the key to finding an equivalent 1-time purchase price equivalent of a subscription price is the rate at which you are willing to tradeoff future streams of cash against the current lumpsum. In this example, it is 5% - to avoid getting technical, let’s call it the “tradeoff rate”.

Assuming the same tradeoff rate of 5%, we can ask: what is the 1-time equivalent purchase price of a collection of features? Let’s say that subscription costs $100/year forever into the future. The 1-time equivalent purchase price is 100/0.05 = $2,000.

But what matters is not the customers tradeoff rate, but Logos’s tradeoff rate. My thinking is that the tradeoff rate for Logos is in the 10% - 20% range. If it is 10%, the 1-time subscription price would be $100/0.10 = $1000. If it is 20%, the 1-time subscription price would be $100/0.20 = $500.

Bottom line: Subscription by itself is not obnoxious as some people have said. The question is: what is the appropriate subscription price given the feature set?

Jim Dean said:

THAT's The Difference.

Jim, thank you for your persistence on this.

I am retired, on a fixed income.  I figure I use less tools than you, but I am at my Logos desk 7 days a week.  A headwind for me is the Canadian $ is worth less than the USD: currently at a 35% deficit.

I have no USA subscriptions now; I have Canadian ones.  One such to Bellingham produces an unwelcome variable.

I'd prefer to buy tools + data sets.

Again, thanks, man.