Official: You Can Now Get Early Access to the Next Version of Logos

While I greatly appreciate FaithLife and Logos, there are some concerning points that I do have.

AI really is not "intelligent" since it employs a machine language learning model which then uses key words to summarize language without an actual understanding of the document it is working through. While the algorithm can lift ideas, the language employed to describe or summarize an idea can be slanted depending upon the programmer. This can be seen by comparing Google's AI, ChatGTP and Bing on difficult subjects. The ethical dilema then becomes will FL AI be geared towards it's largest users such as Baptists, Roman Catholics, Presbyterians, etc. Using AI for spiritual content if there are errors in the output of results or programmer bias then colors the spiritual nourishment we are trying to feed our flocks.

While AI is very exciting for me personally to see with Logos as I discussed with some friends a month back, bias in programming is a potential concern along with the many others voiced here in the forum.

Regarding a subscription model. IF it is only to use a ChatGTP AI alongside Logos, that might be alright IF AT THE SAME TIME there is continued development of new features that are offered as part of say Logos 11. With over 5,000 resources and as a missionary on a limited budget, I would not pay for a subscription to "rent" books if the majority are already owned. Possibly, I would try out AI for $10 a month, but I prefer to buy an outright license in place of renting a temporary one.

Thanks for reading the input.

I am also in the camp of preferring to purchase the feature set. I try to avoid subscriptions now that I am planning to be on a fixed income. I can better plan to make a one-time purchase (birthday, Christmas present, etc.) instead of the dripping drain of yet another subscription. Thanks for listening.

Seems like no one wants the subscription model. I wonder how they will move forward. 

Seems like no one wants the subscription model. I wonder how they will move forward. 

It will be interesting to see. 

There does seem to be a few that would want it (I'm not one of those). 

I would hope that Logos would go both routes - make it available for purchase and as a subscription, as well as having different options. Someone who's focus is preaching is going to have different wants from someone who is just doing their own studying. 

I can see how a subscription model could make sense for those who are new to Logos... let them get a whole package with all the bells and whistles and see what Logos can do. They may decide they just want to go a head and purchase it at that point. It could also be useful for someone doing some research and wanting temporary access to some books, but not wanting to purchase them as they might not have a need to use them again. 

it would be appropriate to have the option to save a sermon document in previous formats, such as Logos 10,

Appropriate but also very costly and with a comparatively high probability of adding errors into the code. I would suggest a short grace period after the subscription drops in which the user is reminded of the potential loss of data and encouraged to export it to another platform.

But export those documents how and to what platform? Such "export" possibility is in essence what I was thinking when mentioning the backward compatibility.  It really is irrelevant whether I want to do that 5 minutes after finishing the document or during a grace period after unsubscribing.
Perhaps I didn't get what you have in mind with "encourage the user to export to another platform" ?

Seems like no one wants the subscription model. I wonder how they will move forward. 

AI really is not "intelligent" since it employs a machine language learning model which then uses key words to summarize language without an actual understanding of the document it is working through.

Thanks for your feedback. AI is a critically important topic, and as Mark said we'll be sharing more of our philosophy and the guiding principles that have shaped our use of it. We've thought carefully and deeply about AI, and we're laboring to make sure our use of it is responsible, faithful to Scripture, and helpful to users. There is risk with every technology that it will result in abuse, laziness, etc. We acknowledge that and want to encourage honorable use to help you get greater depth and insight faster.

While the algorithm can lift ideas, the language employed to describe or summarize an idea can be slanted depending upon the programmer.

Using AI for spiritual content if there are errors in the output of results or programmer bias then colors the spiritual nourishment we are trying to feed our flocks.

Bias can be a problem in the output of generative AI, yes, but it can also be a problem in human-authored content (from which LMMs are built). That's why we need to be Bereans and dig into the sources and check for ourselves. To facilitate that, we plan to (a) always disclose when we're showing you AI-generated content and (b) point you to the sources from which that content was generated so you can check the output for yourself, dig deeper, etc.

Lots more to come on this really important topic. Thanks for engaging.

I love Phil's responses here and agree wholeheartedly.  I am grateful for the humility, and clarity.  Thank you.

Thanks Mark!

I realize subscirptions are the trend

Not necessarily. "Subscription fatigue" is a real thing, and depending on certain things go, may end  up steering the market away, not toward more subs. 

At at minimum, it will likely dictate a limited number of subscriptions people are willing to maintain. 

By many you mean like 10 people.  The overwhelming response is that people don't want this.  It's that simple.

I think I read somewhere in this mountainous thread that Logos has over 10,000 active subscribers. I am one of them, and for now in my use case I do a combination of buying perpetual licenses and subscribe to value added services. It is not for everyone and once Logos restructures their offerings, each will need to make their own informed decisions.  

Years ago, when Logos only had a Windows desktop app, a debate we had on here is whether or not the business model was perpetually sustainable by making the software freely available. In effect, it was perceived that Logos would need to sell a LOT of books, but a question was, would everyone keep buying books even after they have massive libraries. Same with even users with smaller libraries this was a question. Most of my friends who have Logos, do not actively buy books, but might 'upgrade' every two years, with a new base library and some additional features in the base software. Even if Logos' margins on public domain books are high, the question is, can you sell enough books to keep growing the tech indefinitely?

Then add to those days that we have the addition of a desktop app for the Mac, which is now outstanding. There has also been iOS apps added for iPads and iPhones. We have Android apps as well, though I am not as familiar with them. We have syncing into the cloud and a web app on top of that. I literally could stop spending a penny more on Logos, and use all these 'free' tools and services for the rest of my life. I could argue (and would), that I have spent a small fortune on my library, but there are a lot of other users out there that may not and there will still be bills that come every day to keep and maintain all this. 

And of course, we are now talking about AI. I personally am very excited about it. I use it in Obsidian and it's version of smart searches and connections are very powerful. Logos would be crazy to not embrace this more, whilst understanding that not everyone will use it and some need offline access.  This tech currently is costly to run due to its heavy processing requirements, so can you sell enough books regularly to make it available to users at no additional cost?  (I am purposely not using the word free, because nothing is free)

Another current Bible software product has gone another route. They charge for the software and I think to upgrade in their last two year cycle, I spent about $50. Very reasonable and no one is going to fuss about that. Yet, the amount of changes that come every two years to the platform is very, very minimal. In their case, they too have added desktop apps for both platforms, they have mobile apps which are languishing and have been struggling for literally years now to produce a web app version and a robust syncing solution. It needs lots and lots of investment just to get current.

In the background, we have the ominous cloud that we lost QuickVerse, WordSearch and Bible Works. Losing Bible Works was particularly disturbing.  Anyone remember the Parson's STEP bible format? It's dead. PC Study Bible is all but dead and the free Bible software market has nibbled away at this space, because a lot of users just want a basic digital study Bible to occasionally use or consult.  Advanced Bible study software is a niche market, and one that will rightfully continue to want the latest resources and tech, but there is this big legacy machine to maintain and advance. 

So in my view, this is Logos' pathway to walk. I would be more concerned if they just continued to do the same thing over and over. They have to try some new things to generate investment. It would seem to me that they are dropping a lot of activities to focus on this core product, which is good. Now if they can restructure things to satisfy the current support base whilst following through on their commitment to perpetually maintain their now massive suite of software and resources, whilst pushing forward to developing more value, they will stay in business. Otherwise, I think we have examples of other companies that are no longer with us to look to.

I don't have an issue with subscriptions. I have subed to faith life connect essentials for a while. Now.  My issue is that the subscriptions are based on the features, and I'm worried that they won't make them buyable. 

When it comes to believing if they can or can't sustain by doing this... Well go take a look at their current job offers salaries.  Over 200k.  If they can pay people 200k a year plus huge bennifits then I think they're doing fine. 9

how will user created content be handled under the subscription plan? For instance, it would be hard for me to recommend a product for someone to use in sermon creation if the potential to review their notes and sermon rough drafts disappears once they no longer subscribe to a particular toolset. Might that be a possibility with some of the content creation tools that are only available in the subscription-based services?

Unfortunately, that is how it works at the moment. Imagine you don't own a feature set and instead subscribe to Sermon Builder. If so, you will lose access to your sermon documents when your subscription expires. We wouldn't delete the document, and resubscribing would make it available again.

This doesn't apply to all document types because many documents (including notes) are available as part of the free edition, which doesn't require a subscription.

We know that this is far from ideal, and it is something we'll be looking at shortly.

I applaud your transparency and willingness to tackle the challenges head on.

I think permanent access to  my own thoughts and notes would be an absolute  hard line when deciding which  tools to invest in for ministry and  academics. 

 I’ll be praying for wisdom for your team to find a solution that is both fiscally profitable and practical for the ministry.

Another solution is to make them "read-only" if you cancel your subscription, in the way PDFS are handled in Adobe Acrobat Reader.

Hi everyone - There's clearly a wide ranging debate about many topics associated with the proposed change and what customers might expect going forward.  FWIW here are my own thoughts.

As a customer for many years, I really value the Logos software and resources I've accumulated and am likely to continue adding to my library of something over 18,000 books in the future. My consistent priorities over the years have been to:

(a) Always purchase the full feature set to ensure I own the most complete form of the software;

(b) Subscribe to Faithlife Connect (without library) so that I will receive new features as they arise - and until purchasing the feature set to own. While the Connect classic ebooks, courses and discounts are important, they are not my first priority; and 

(c) Acquisition of appropriate resources to meet my interests and to ensure an effective database.

Some people might argue that in buying the full features as well as having a Connect subscription, I am paying twice for the same features. However, my objective is to be as up to date as possible at any time and to know that if at any rime I wish to cancel a subscription, I have fully functioning software to my satisfaction.

I do not wish to have a feature to the software that is solely available by subscription. 

If Artificial Intelligence (AI) based features are to be made available only by subscription, then I would seriously question my need for that feature. If it were available by one-off (life time license?), then I would consider buying that feature as an integrated part of the software whether or not it was essential to how I actually use the software.

I'm not a fan of AI and have real concerns as to how it might be used by pastors, seminaries, the media, government and employers. This means its important for me to know where Faithlife gets its AI technology, who their partners are and how that impacts the Logos software and myself as a user. My concerns about AI do not mean that I wouldn't try it out, but given my preference to own features, I'm less likely to enter into a long term subscription. 

I would like Faithlife to make a full feature set available for purchase (at least annually) on an ongoing basis. This is something I would buy given my stated priorities. 

In relation to Faithlife Connect, I would prefer that this service continue in some form and include feature updates - if necessary confined to non-AI related features if Faithlife insists on anything to do with AI being on a separate subscription. 

I'm confident Faithlife will be flexible in developing options to satisfy as many customers as possible, particularly those who have been with the company for a long time. 

Keep well 

Paul