Official: You Can Now Get Early Access to the Next Version of Logos

The thing that is aggravating to me is that the point continues to be hammered by subscription supporters that this is about sustainability for Logos going forward.....

I guess I don't see how features that are being created for the subscription customers and from what it sounds like, will still be a part of the same engine, just activated by license for subscribers and not activated for those who choose not to subscribe.... Leaving non subscribers in the dark for new features.

So for me - if the engine is the same, if the feature is activated for those who subscribe, I don't see how difficult it is to not punish those who choose to not subscribe by not offering the ability to purchase a license as has always existed..... If all it takes is having the license for the features, sell the feature sets as is currently - otherwise this is just a stunt to force people to subscribe to have new features - not about the customers nor sustainability....

Mark gives 5 reasons in his original post:

Logos subscriptions aren’t new. More than ten thousand people have been subscribing to Logos for nearly a decade. But we’re now embracing subscription for our software because doing so has five distinct advantages. 

1. New users can have much lower upfront costs and try Logos with much less commitment.
2. It allows us to continuously release new features and improvements as soon as they are built, rather than holding them back for a major release every two years. That’s especially important at a time of rapid technological change.
3. It allows us to include features like AI, which we can’t offer permanent licenses to because of the significant ongoing costs.
4. It’s a sustainable way of ensuring we can keep delivering improvements for decades to come.
5. Releasing early and often significantly shortens the feedback loop, enabling us to continually tweak our improvements to ensure they’re really solving the most important things for all our customers.

This forum doesn't allow us to delete posts so again, my apologies.

This forum doesn't allow us to delete posts so again, my apologies.

Just an FYI Brother,

You can delete a post but only if you get to it within the very first few minutes of making said post. How log that is I don't really know but I would guess less than 5 or so.

EDIT:

I kept checking after making this post and the Delete option was still there 7-10 minutes after making this post, but then went away. So, 7 minutes may be a safe number.

So we need to remember it is speculation.

Got it! Thanks for helping me catch up with you on that.

If I buy L11, will I get a discount on the subscription? Answer: If we offer that, then yes.

Ok, now I'm beginning to get excited. I could foresee a scenario where in order to keep the discount from Logos 10, one would have to purchase the feature set from Logos 11, and so on... 

A setup like this would enable a more affordable subscription price while allowing the user to make full use of the latest non-AI features, even in the event of a subscription interruption. Yes please!

If I am not mistaken, one of the Logos employees mentioned an audible like plan where subscription credits could be used toward the purchase of new books.  What if there was an option for subscription credits to be used in purchasing wanted feature sets.  Being able to use subscription credits may solve the issue with customers wanting to own feature sets.  Some features sets of Logos I use every week; others I have never used. Future feature sets that I use regularly, I want to option to own them.  Subscription credits for features would give me the option to own the ones I want without having to pay for all feature sets in the future release of Logos 11.

This is a good idea. Kind of a rent to own model. This would help people not feel like they're wasting money subscribing to features and then either losing them when they need to drop their subscription or having to buy them and pay for them all over again after renting them for months/years. 

Vik Rajagopal is the CEO of Bellingham-based Faithlife. Rajagopal took over the role from co-founder Bob Pritchett in January 2022

Bill McCarthy has recently taken over the CEO role from Vik - he has introduced himself in the forums at https://community.logos.com/forums/t/221746.aspx 

Oh wow.  Sad to hear what is happening with his parents. Who is this person exactly? Never heard of him before and he mentioned that he was asked to join logos as CEO and chief chairman.  

He really kustTook over like hours ago. Only has 1 forum post and his faith life account is black and don't even have a profile picture or admin logo. 

So for me - if the engine is the same, if the feature is activated for those who subscribe, I don't see how difficult it is to not punish those who choose to not subscribe by not offering the ability to purchase a license as has always existed.....

The problem is that most of the posts are speculative in the form of "If Logos does X my response will be Y" without concrete knowledge of what features will be subscription only by the fall and without concrete knowledge of what the marketing groupings and cost will be. But Logos specifically wanted to know what we would feel about it (speculation) ... so they can make rational decisions on the marketing. And they have to make their decisions before we can make ours. So we need to remember it is speculation.

My problem with some of the posts is that they seem to equate AI with chatbots which creates unrealistic expectations of the tools and that some speculation on the use of AI is taken as fact. I have reservations regarding the subscription model in terms of gifting some else with my collection. On the other hand, I have faith in the current management based on the belief that Vic was a change management leader who moved Logos from a startup model to a sustainable model. I understand why that includes subscriptions. I do not know and will not speculate how AI platforms will be funded once they reach the basic utility stage. When was the last time you thought about funding the internet infrastructure?

I understand on the AI aspect - that is the one aspect that I can understand the need for subscription. If there is ongoing cost to provide a feature through a third party service - that should be subscription based. However, not all users desire that, or find that feature worth the cost of subscription. Also, if third party service enabled features are the limited route that new features added to Logos will be tied to.... That is very short sighted and poor modeling by FL - there is a lot of room for feature improvement and addition that would not require a paid third party service and those features should be available via traditional purchase - it's not that difficult to see that a dual option purchase and subscription covers the broadest base of consumers.

Since input was requested, here's mine (FWIW). At this moment I will not be subscribing. I may subscribe in the future if some new feature seems worth it to me. I'm fairly adept at formulating a search that finds what I need, so at the moment the AI search is not a priority for me. I am assuming that using the subscription features means constant access to wifi for it to work. Normally that is not a problem, but I do sometimes find myself working in places without it. One of the greatest values of Logos for me is the ability to take, and use, my library anywhere I go, even if I don't have a wifi connection.

For the Logos admins who may read this post, I'm sure the decision has already been made and it is too late to pause at this point. And I understand that software people have a different take on AI. However, I would urge a long, serious look at the philosophical issues involved in linking Bible study to AI. As an academic, the uses for AI that I have seen for documents is nothing to be excited about. AI generated texts are often (maybe always) wrong about something, and users who do not have expertise in what they are looking at may accept incorrect conclusions as truth or fact. AI is also subject to cultural biases (cf. the recent Google Gemini problems). None of this should be acceptable for those who study and teach the Bible.

Beyond that, however, is the problem of conclusions, or summaries, without the intellectual rigor required to get them. I read one post on here where a Logos user said he had invested in all kinds of datasets and still could not translate Greek. That's because translating Greek is an acquired skill which is the result of studying the language. The same is true for attaining a mastery of theological literature, any given Bible topic or passage, etc. The idea of "pressing a button" and getting instant analysis bypasses the crucial step of acquiring the skills that make using those results effective. Integrating AI into Logos encourages all of this. I would much rather read an article or chapter and know for myself what it said, than "know" it from an AI-generated summary.

I have firsthand experience with students who are increasingly using AI to complete assignments. They want a good grade but they don't want to put in the personal effort it takes to earn one. They see AI as a way of eliminating the hard work of reading and thinking about what they read. I see the linking of Logos with AI in a similar way. It encourages presentation without learning. It discourages actual thinking. If AI goes in the direction in which it seems to be headed, my fear is that we're in the process of creating a generation of people who will lack critical thinking skills because the AI shortcut gave them their information. Is that the kind of lawyers, or doctors, or preachers, we want? And should Logos be contributing to this?

Mark, first I want to thank you for all the time and feedback you have provided. It is appreciated. One of my biggest concerns is the unknown price of the subscription for people who don't own the full feature set. I've been using Logos since libronix, quickverse, and wordsearch, and I've paid for many updates over the years, but I don't currently have the L10 full feature set. In fact, it is over $500 for me to upgrade. Since the $9.99 is a heavily discounted price, I'm assuming the cost will be much higher. Which again, will put it out of reach for typical pastors. I understand many people have invested many thousands of dollars in their packages, but I would urge you to think about the typical pastor, who is pastoring a church of 200 people or less, and is struggling to get by. $9.99 is reasonable, but if we start talking $30 or $40 per month, then there is no chance for the average small town pastor to afford this.

Thank you for your feedback on the next version of Logos

Cant thank You enough. I have tons of respect for how you’re handling the announcements, criticism and questions.

I did not see this question answered anywhere and was wondering,

how will user created content be handled under the subscription plan? For instance, it would be hard for me to recommend a product for someone to use in sermon creation if the potential to review their notes and sermon rough drafts disappears once they no longer subscribe to a particular tool set. Might that be a possibility with some of the content creation tools that are only available in the subscription based services?

Thanks again.

Unfortunately, that is how it works at the moment. Imagine you don't own a feature set and instead subscribe to Sermon Builder. If so, you will lose access to your sermon documents when your subscription expires. We wouldn't delete the document, and resubscribing would make it available again.

This doesn't apply to all document types because many documents (including notes) are available as part of the free edition, which doesn't require a subscription.

We know that this is far from ideal, and it is something we'll be looking at shortly.

Perhaps the sermon documents could be read-only and exportable for non-subscribers who don't own a feature set with sermon builder.

While I greatly appreciate FaithLife and Logos, there are some concerning points that I do have.

AI really is not "intelligent" since it employs a machine language learning model which then uses key words to summarize language without an actual understanding of the document it is working through. While the algorithm can lift ideas, the language employed to describe or summarize an idea can be slanted depending upon the programmer. This can be seen by comparing Google's AI, ChatGTP and Bing on difficult subjects. The ethical dilema then becomes will FL AI be geared towards it's largest users such as Baptists, Roman Catholics, Presbyterians, etc. Using AI for spiritual content if there are errors in the output of results or programmer bias then colors the spiritual nourishment we are trying to feed our flocks.

While AI is very exciting for me personally to see with Logos as I discussed with some friends a month back, bias in programming is a potential concern along with the many others voiced here in the forum.

Regarding a subscription model. IF it is only to use a ChatGTP AI alongside Logos, that might be alright IF AT THE SAME TIME there is continued development of new features that are offered as part of say Logos 11. With over 5,000 resources and as a missionary on a limited budget, I would not pay for a subscription to "rent" books if the majority are already owned. Possibly, I would try out AI for $10 a month, but I prefer to buy an outright license in place of renting a temporary one.

Thanks for reading the input.