Logos "we’re launching our next version of Logos as a subscription"

Bradley Grainger (Logos) said:

Let's say (and I am completely making this up) that based on user feedback and usage stats we decide that Bibliography Documents, Clippings Documents, and Notes are really three views of "the same thing" that are needlessly separated in the UI. (*waves hands wildly* A Bibliography is just a list of citations from the notes in a particular Notebook, and Clippings is just a view of a Notebook that focuses on the excerpted text rather than the note taken on it.) And let's say we believe we can combine all three into one UI that has a better overall user experience. 

It's off-topic, but I would LOVE it if you did this.

Bradley Grainger (Logos) said:

What I hear you asking for is: "I would like all the benefits of subscription software such as continual updates and support for new OSes, and to have features maintained forever and to never lose access to them, but I would like to only pay once, like a perpetual license." Is that a fair restatement of your position?

There are a lot of software companies that offer this model even in 2024. They have figured this out, so I would think Logos could as well, if they wanted to.  Foxit is a major one we use at work, we buy the perpetual licenses and get modest new features added every few months for free until the next version comes out with “major” feature upgrades.  The Office 2021 perpetual license is the same way.  This model certainly isn’t going anywhere.

That being said, they are not PE backed, and if they are anything like the PE firm I previously worked for, the PE takeover of Logos was done for a reason…to capitalize on untapped profit opportunity.

Bradley Grainger (Logos) said:

Or take a "true" software feature like instant Light/Dark mode switching. Due to the complexity of our platform, this took significant developer effort to implement across all UI components. This is something we might have traditionally sold as part of a Full Feature Upgrade every two years. Because subscription provides incremental revenue for us now, we were able to launch that to subscribers early as a perk (instead of holding it back till Fall). When we did that, we received a number of complaints saying (paraphrasing) that it should have been implemented that way from the beginning and that it should be given away free to all L10 users today.  That would be nice, I agree! But we can't pay our developers today with the sales revenue from two years ago. So this leads to a number of unsatisfying possibilities: (1) don't include Dark Mode in L10 at all, until it can be completely "finished" to avoid complaints about shipping incomplete features; (2) ship features in phases, but those phases have to ship two years apart because every two years is the only time we can sell new things; (3) charge more for the Logos 10 Full Feature Set for the promise of things that might come later but haven't even been started yet; (4) develop expensive software features with no business plan for how we'll recoup our investment and then give them away for free; (5) cut costs, lay off our software engineering teams, and slow development to a crawl.

Option 3 is exactly what Logos has already been doing though?  How many reverse interlinears are included in the launch packages but then dont get shipped until 6 months later?  I know I paid for LGC resources in previous packages at the time of launch that Doug Magnum posted hadn’t even really been started yet.   It’s essentially the same crowdfunding model that businesses use on Kickstarter, so it does work and is quite popular With consumers.  I’d rather buy in advance and wait for it if it means I will own it forever.  

Bradley Grainger (Logos) said:

You're asserting that it would be. But to make an (imperfect) analogy, maybe this is like customers coming to Netflix and saying "I don't want a subscription. I'd like to buy lifetime access to Netflix for $100. Wouldn't you rather have that revenue than not receive it at all?"

Your logic is quite right. The problem, viewing from 'outside':

- FL says they're in great financial shape. Indeed, throwing money at less optimal opportunities, recently.

- The timing looks like the PE is whispering new successful strategies (more than whispering)

- FL subscriptioning hasn't been the stellar experience Phil talks of; track record.

- The customer base has become trained to major sales, and ownership (on their respective computers)

The subscription logic is there; it just doesn't fit FL's present. Except for one factor: 'want more money'.

DMB said:

Bradley Grainger (Logos) said:

You're asserting that it would be. But to make an (imperfect) analogy, maybe this is like customers coming to Netflix and saying "I don't want a subscription. I'd like to buy lifetime access to Netflix for $100. Wouldn't you rather have that revenue than not receive it at all?"

Your logic is quite right. The problem, viewing from 'outside':

- FL says they're in great financial shape. Indeed, throwing money at less optimal opportunities, recently.

- The timing looks like the PE is whispering new successful strategies (more than whispering)

- FL subscriptioning hasn't been the stellar experience Phil talks of; track record.

- The customer base has become trained to major sales, and ownership (on their respective computers)

The subscription logic is there; it just doesn't fit FL's present. Except for one factor: 'want more money'.

Many times, DMB, what you write has many meanings possible, leaving me impossible.  Kinda like going thru the song 'American Pie' in school.  What does ol' Don really mean??  Why was that levee dry?  And rye is a whiskey [espec. in Canada here]. To me, as a poet, it was a throw away line [whiskey + rye] to rhyme with dry; one does this because one can't think of a better one. I wuda put: 'Shakin' a fist at the sky.'  One more syllable, but when singing one can jumble it in.

Here, above, I hear you 100%.  Thank you for your 'just de facts' appraisal of L-world.  

scooter said:

Kinda like going thru the song 'American Pie' in school.  What does ol' Don really mean??  Why was that levee dry?  And rye is a whiskey [espec. in Canada here]. To me, as a poet, it was a throw away line [whiskey + rye] to rhyme with dry; one does this because one can't think of a better one. I wuda put: 'Shakin' a fist at the sky.'  One more syllable, but when singing one can jumble it in.

Agree on 'Don, what?!'. But having spent much time on those levees (Cajun accordian playing in hot Louisiana mornings), the heat just settles in, and swallows you up. Whiskey, yes. Rye? You're right. But never a fist at the sky; energy is draining. Very similar, at Horsehead Crossing in West Texas. Swallows you up, and you see life.

Bradley Grainger (Logos) said:

Frank Sauer said:

If the choice is receive revenue from the users (many long term and some of whom have been free word of mouth or doing presentations to "sell" Logos) that will only buy to own and not subscribe or not receive their revenue at all.... Wouldn't having their revenue and continued customer loyalty be worth it???

You're asserting that it would be. But to make an (imperfect) analogy, maybe this is like customers coming to Netflix and saying "I don't want a subscription. I'd like to buy lifetime access to Netflix for $100. Wouldn't you rather have that revenue than not receive it at all?"

(I know we're not Netflix and you don't subscribe to books. The point I'm trying to make is that it doesn't necessarily make sense to offer perpetual access to something with variable costs for a fixed one-time fee.)

Frank Sauer said:

As for the "forever" - I've said multiple times that it falls on Logos for continuing to market Features in that manner.... Not only on the marketing pages of the website, but also in Mark's posts.... If Logos doesn't want to hear about that, or if it is impossible to honor - it is an easy fix.... Remove the word from the marketing and stop ensuring that in posts, emails and "promises"....

 

Does removing that word solve the problem, though? I thought you were the one asking for the "traditional purchase model". If we said "the traditional purchase model is back but you don't own things forever", would you not object that that's not what you asked for? Are you not the one actually asking to own things "forever"? What is it you want to buy if not a perpetual license?

A quite imperfect analogy.... NOWHERE have I asked for anything near that stupid in the analogy... Wanting a perpetual license and recognizing that forever hasn't been honored ... But still upgrading as I have is nothing compared to what you have continued to seem to insinuate I am looking for ...

I have been clear over and over.... I've contacted you via message and left you my number since for some reason you seem to not get what my posts are saying.... Yet more misrepresenting.... 

Have fun

Tes said:

Do you mean to say that this is your ultimate goal?

It sounds to me that this is not only the goal, but also the firmly determined plan going forward. Based on this conversation it is becoming more clear that the likelihood of a traditional purchase option in the Fall is quite small. It seems anyone who wants to continue enjoying a recent edition of Logos is likely to have only one option: subscription. I like that feature ownership will be available for subscribers, and the rationale in this thread for subscription largely makes sense (though it seems to me that very little effort is being put into trying to understand opposing arguments concerning why there may yet still be a place for a traditional purchase option. Most of the counter-arguments have been exaggerated to the point of not taking the rationale for a partial incorporation of the traditional purchase model seriously). Nonetheless, I am personally just fine with a subscription model going forward. The market is pushing Logos to incorporate many expenses in the software development and support realm that were not present 10 years ago, and a subscription is the easiest way to solve this problem. 

And I would dare say that the majority of customers are currently not on subscriptions.  I'd like to see proof otherwise.  I sense some gaslighting going on here.  But it is consistent with their new masters, Cove Hill Partners.  They bought Logos because it is profitable, not to help them out of trouble.  Their focus is below, as per their webpage.

I subscription I'd be willing to pay for, is to have access to all the Mobile Ed Courses, like how Zondervan Academic has subscription access to all of theirs.

NathanL said:

I subscription I'd be willing to pay for, is to have access to all the Mobile Ed Courses, like how Zondervan Academic has subscription access to all of theirs.

They had a high priced subscription but they chose which courses you had access to every month! That’s why I never even considered subscribing.

DAL

Sean said:

Jonathan Bradley said:

... Our hope is to give users exactly what they need—no more, no less. We want users to feel like your Logos subscription is exactly right-sized for their specific use case.

Yeah, see this is the problem: I'll be most interested in the academic tier, which will be the most expensive. I'm sure it will include all the stuff from the other tiers--stuff that I'm least likely to use. So, I'd have to pay the $25 or $35 or whatever to get it, but I'm not going to.

Seems like we have had something similar in the existing purchase model ... quite a number of features, datasets, etc. were listed on the website with an amount for "price if purchased separately, but then were only available as part of a base package, etc.   I was looking for a dataset/feature in the past, found it had a price of $7,99 ... but to get it, the least expensive package was $74,50 (calculating in the dynamic pricing in my case).