Logos "we’re launching our next version of Logos as a subscription"
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NathanL said:
If it was subscription only, out of principal I wouldn't subscribe and I'd just stick with my Logos 10 features. I'd be more than happy to still be using Logos 10 in 20 years time, I've got enough resources to last me a life time and I would probably just buy a few commentaries here and there.
Same here....
I guess the "silver lining" of the lack of clarity and dangling the carrot is the money that I have saved.... At first I was disappointed and getting frustrated at the resources that were on my short list were on decent sales, but I will not purchase until there is clarity.... I guess I am now at the point that I am looking at the fact that I've saved almost $500 by Logos dragging their feet on giving a clear statement on Perpetual License purchases... Well as a PLUS.... I save the money and don't give financial support to a company that doesn't value customers enough to give a timely and clear statement....
Still have a little over a hundred dollars in the cart.... Guess there is still a very small part of me hoping for TRUE clarity, whether in the forums, another email, a response to emails that I sent after receiving the "update" earlier....
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 16 & Android 14
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Aaron Hamilton said:Frank Sauer said:
They also wanted feedback on it and that feedback has not received a clear response....It is precisely in the arena of actually owning the software without some Rent to Own subscription, where there is no clarity at all
This email as far as I know containes the first clear response, saying that feature ownership will be possible in the future. I understand that such a statement does not answer every question. But it does clearly state that ownership will be possible. You are entirely correct that purchase-only ownership is the area with the least clarity, and my opinion is that this is because they still don't know if they will be offering such a option. I do believe they have shown that they value user feedback. But they also value a subscription model over purchase-only. So trying to reconcile those potentially competing interests I'm sure poses a challenge. Likely, if purchase-only features are offered, they will be priced in such a way as to discourage most users from going that route.
Probably they should have waited to gather their thoughts more fully before creating all of this confusion. I do believe that much of the feedback was predictable. Three months of this would have been more comfortable than six.
Agreed.... But, I hope they are smarter than coming out with an overpriced Purchase Option just to steer users who want to purchase into a Subscription... That would just inflame the situation and likely not be a net positive for Logos....
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 16 & Android 14
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Frank Sauer said:
Agreed.... But, I hope they are smarter than coming out with an overpriced Purchase Option just to steer users who want to purchase into a Subscription... That would just inflame the situation and likely not be a net positive for Logos...
I agree. I guess I would hope that the emphasis would be more on highlighting the perks of subscription instead of significantly overpricing the purchase options. For example, with subscription I get more features (as not all will be able to be purchased), immediate updates, and credits toward free feature upgrades for just a bit more than what it would cost to purchase the feature package alone. Think of it as a bundle discount similar to the purchase of a library. I could see that being a "better deal" for most people than the purchase option, while still keeping the purchase option available for those who desire it and/or are opposed to AI.
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Aaron Hamilton said:Frank Sauer said:
Agreed.... But, I hope they are smarter than coming out with an overpriced Purchase Option just to steer users who want to purchase into a Subscription... That would just inflame the situation and likely not be a net positive for Logos...
I agree. I guess I would hope that the emphasis would be more on highlighting the perks of subscription instead of significantly overpricing the purchase options. For example, with subscription I get more features (as not all will be able to be purchased), immediate updates, and credits toward free feature upgrades for just a bit more than what it would cost to purchase the feature package alone. Think of it as a bundle discount similar to the purchase of a library. I could see that being a "better deal" for most people than the purchase option, while still keeping the purchase option available for those who desire it and/or are opposed to AI.
And that is what makes it so baffling that it has not been clarified.... Providing both improves customer satisfaction, expands the customer base and would allow for more users to help in the "sustainability" we hear about....
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 16 & Android 14
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Perhaps I am misreading or am just pessimistic, but I am more than a little disappointed with their response. There seems to be a large majority that want to continue to purchase not only resources, but improvements as time goes on; i.e. Logos 11, 12, etc. They didn't clarify and may not know how they will accomplish this, but I was not encouraged by the letter.
What I read (perhaps incorrectly) is little more than trying to appease a disappointed majority while not changing their plans any if at all. They may have listened, but have rejected the view of a very large segment of the customer base. For many Logos has been one their most expensive investments. To see it devalued or not progressing is disappointing. Yes, all resources are yours forever, but you may never be able to upgrade and perhaps not use it on future operating systems.
I have no qualms with them offering a subscription model, but I very disappointed that it is likely we will either subscribe or have Logos 10, with whatever flaws it now has in perpetuity. Hopefully, I will be pleasantly surprised, but that is not what I got from the email.
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What can I say? I am happy that Logos is willing to continue to have some form of perpetual feature sets. I have never doubted that they would continue to support our ability to use the books that we have bought — on into the future. Although I am not a great fan of subscription services, the ones that I have tried and continue to use have actually been a benefit to me. Logos is one of these. While I am also not a fan of AI as it is used in Chatbots in search engines, I do find AI as it is implemented in Logos Pro to be helpful. I have found it useful in helping me search my library, as well as in showing me places where my library may not be as sufficient as I would like. Things just seem to be easier and quicker.
I also like the changes I have seen in the mobile and web apps. I am now using them more than I ever have before.
I am excited as well about the future possibilities of being able to improve my use of Logos with my small groups, along with sermon prep and personal study. I have yet to really delve into sermon manager, as I have always written my sermons in word. I plan on trying out some of the new sermon tools this coming month though.
What can I say? I am just excited about the future of my spiritual growth and ministry, and the ways in which Logos continues to be a beneficial part of that.
Above all these things, walk in love, which is the bond of perfection. - Colossians 3:14
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Count me as one who is not concerned. Logos is not going away. In a sense they are going backwards - to Logo 6 and the Logos NOW subscription that brought us new features as soon as they were released. No waiting two years for the next release back then.
There will always be a free version of Logos, just as now. There will be some sort of permanent feature purchase option. Books will still be purchased not rented.
For perspective, maybe like me you subscribe to an anti-virus program, or a back-up program, a malware detection program, or a suite of Office apps. Like me you may buy a new version of your tax preparation or some other program every year. I don't complain about this. Maybe you don't either. We understand why we do this and why there is a subscription or recurring purchase required. I hope we'll see the Logos subscription the same way.
If I can't afford the subscription or just choose not to subscribe, I will still have a very robust Bible Study program. No complaints.
This isn't apocalyptic. With the assurances Logos is giving, it just seems a bit like old times.
Pastor, North Park Baptist Church
Bridgeport, CT USA
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I came across a website called Glassdoor, with reviews of companies from employees, I made an account to browse Logos employee reviews, after seeing a review with this comment... "Recent shifts in the subscription strategy fail to meet customer expectations (check the lengthy conversations on the company forums).
After reading multiple reviews I wasn't very encouraged by what I saw, certainly for a "Christian" business. I've been optimistic about where this will all end up, but here are some comments on the current topic."It was purchased by a private equity firm and the trend has continued to be one of make the largest profit margin possible."
"Advice to Management: I wont bother because its not going to be considered. PE playbook is the name of the game now. Good luck all"
"The departure of the founder/CEO Bob Pritchett brought with it a lot of cultural changes and uncertainties (and layoffs) and made it feel like that tension was leaning a lot more in favor of profit goals over mission.""The reviews here tell the same story: Faithlife, now known as Logos, is not what it used to be. At the end of the day, it's painfully obvious that their only concern is the bottom line, and that, despite the fact that they're in the business of selling Christian products, genuine Christian ethics are conspicuously absent."
"Your speech must always be with grace, as though seasoned with salt, so that you will know how you should respond to each person." - Colossians 4:6
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Maybe I am ignorant, but with the benefit of the subscription model providing consistent monthly revenue to Logos, can't they just name a price (a reasonable price) for those of us who want to purchase (and own) the feature set and then have their bean counters manage the cash flow from purchase sales to meet their monthly needs?
And, as one Logosian (Denese's term) pointed out, the features they are offering in the new subscription pricing are not attractive to me at all.
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Mark Smith said:
In a sense they are going backwards - to Logo 6 and the Logos NOW subscription that brought us new features as soon as they were released. No waiting two years for the next release back then.
I keep pointing it out to no avail. Faithlife connect was supposed to give new features as soon as they were released. See https://connect.faithlife.com/now-faq.
This link states: "This change ensures Logos Now customers get the exact same benefits of Logos Now—plus the additional benefits of Faithlife Connect."
Probably the biggest issue is that they do not have a Bob Pritchett anymore who was good at communicating.
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Why is Logos moving to a subscription?
The world is changing fast, and customers have told us that they don’t want to have to wait two years to get new and improved features that would help them get deeper insights in less time. As a result, Logos must evolve to enable truth seeking at the same pace as the world we live in. With a subscription, you’ll get new features and improvements as soon as they’re ready—no more waiting for two years.I never indicated such. I don't mind waiting for new and improved features.
Do Logos early access subscriptions include all the features, books, and perks included in existing subscriptions?
No, the new Logos subscriptions will include varying levels of features. The Logos Pro tier, for instance, includes every new feature not available anywhere else (Smart Search, Summarize, Sermon Assistant, and more) and most Logos 10 features. It also provides access to 430 books, but the library differs from those contained in Preaching Suite or Faithlife Connect. The new Logos subscriptions will also receive continual updates and new features roughly every six weeks as part of our shift to a continuous release cycle.For those who end up subscribing, the most important question is what 430 books will they get? I doubt they'll include the top notch resources from Baker, Zondervan, Eerdmans, etc. Those will require royalty payments. What percentage will be older copyright free books? One reason I've invested so much in Logos over the years is to get the books I want, to build my library, according to my interests.
Right now, I have no plans to subscribe.
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That has certainly been true in my case.mab said:Every new version was a great incentive to build one's library with new packages. This looks like it's going away. I hope not because subscription runs have practically zero incentive to build a theological library which is Logos' strongest ongoing feature.
"In all cases, the Church is to be judged by the Scripture, not the Scripture by the Church," John Wesley0 -
I am in the camp of those that I do not want to wait two years for new features in my most valuable piece of software. Of the software on my computer that means the most to me, Logos is increasingly sticking out as running on the old legacy model of major version updates every couple of years. I pay for regular updates for lessor important software, and I am prepared to invest to see Logos move more quickly with technology. That’s just me and I respect the views of others that wish for things to remain as they are.
With that said, many have complained about wanting to perpetually own new features. I think this is valid and I would place myself in that camp too. Whilst there is a lot of things to ‘get right’ about this concept, the communication rolled out yesterday is that there would be an option of owning perpetual licenses to new features. I will be always seeking to own features perpetually so that if I need to stop subscribing, I retain my capabilities.
This along with owning our books and seeing a base version that is reasonably competent, reduces my concerns. If Logos were to become a basic e-reader over time, there would be no market benefit for me to pay more for a resource in Logos than in Kindle where the ereader is completely free. I trust they are going to be sensible. I have a couple of pieces of software which I do not own their premium version, but their basic free version is very suitable for my needs.
All this to say, the proof is in the pudding, but I am optimistically looking forward. In the meantime, I think the dynamic resource toolbar will be a cool tool to see come to the desktop app. Bravo!
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Bill Anderson said:
Maybe I am ignorant, but with the benefit of the subscription model providing consistent monthly revenue to Logos, can't they just name a price (a reasonable price) for those of us who want to purchase (and own) the feature set and then have their bean counters manage the cash flow from purchase sales to meet their monthly needs?
And, as one Logosian (Denese's term) pointed out, the features they are offering in the new subscription pricing are not attractive to me at all.
You would think this should be the simple answer.... Especially considering that Mark already stated they were looking at Annual and possibly BiAnnual Subscription Rates in another thread..... So if that is possible for a subscription - why is is so difficult to just respond to the feedback and continue offering the traditional purchase option??? The fact that they are looking at offering annual and biannual subscription pricing and no mention of not having access to New Features except every two years, no regualr updates.....
Sorry, but the only difference between Annual/BiAnnual Subscription and True Purchasing is being locked in to losing Features if you cancel.... If they are going to offer the Two Year Subscription Price but not the Traditional Purchase option, they invalidated most of their comments and due to their own vague responses and lack of direct answer leave us to read what we have and those points appear to show that the company wants to lock you into a subscription to keep you as a customer, rather than keeping us as customers the way they have for decades - Good Service and Good Product....
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 16 & Android 14
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Very well said, there are some people who have "no subscriptions" but I have a few, including my "internet connection". Personally, I like fast and regular updates, and they have made it clear why this change is occurring...(anyone who uses software knows this).
There are (3) primary choices, give it away for free and the individual becomes the product through marketing, advertising, data mining, privacy, etc (Google, Facebook), keep going with perpetual and eventually die (hardly any software, including apps believe this is sustainable), or transition to subscription. If I am going to pay a subscription, then certainly the one area I can justify it is with my bible and daily devotions.
I read the recent email and comfortable with what has been relayed so far.
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Mark Smith said:
This isn't apocalyptic. With the assurances Logos is giving, it just seems a bit like old times.
Returning to Logos6, it is indeed ... and they couldn't deliver (regular early features). And staff is not stupid (though marketing copy seems that way). And if you're a new owner and you scan revenue sources, books aren't it. At best, sink Accordance, expand academic, and bumble around the church 'space'. That leaves the app.
I'd have to assume the features are the easy foot-in-the-water. Already, customers are used to buying 'features'. Subscribe them and pop the rates. But that's still peanuts (and a few frustrated customers). At some point, the app HAS to go subscription. Bible software just isn't the big money-machine. Assurances are sincere, but so are owners.
So, yes, sit back and enjoy Logos for a while.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Bill Anderson said:
Maybe I am ignorant, but with the benefit of the subscription model providing consistent monthly revenue to Logos, can't they just name a price (a reasonable price) for those of us who want to purchase (and own) the feature set and then have their bean counters manage the cash flow from purchase sales to meet their monthly needs?
And, as one Logosian (Denese's term) pointed out, the features they are offering in the new subscription pricing are not attractive to me at all.
You're not ignorant; that's the way so many things used to work until they all decided they had to have a monthly subscription stream instead because late stage capitalism.
I for one:
- Am not particularly anxious about losing access to my books
- Am not at all interested in AI bells & whistles and certainly won't subscribe for them
- Personally think they are going this way because subscription and because AI bells & whistles are what they're left with now
- Think we'll keep hearing verbiage about "we're listening" and "we're considering offering ownable features" when in actuality they've already made up their minds about it.
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Mark said:
I keep pointing it out to no avail. Faithlife connect was supposed to give new features as soon as they were released. See https://connect.faithlife.com/now-faq.
This link states: "This change ensures Logos Now customers get the exact same benefits of Logos Now—plus the additional benefits of Faithlife Connect."
Probably the biggest issue is that they do not have a Bob Pritchett anymore who was good at communicating.
[Y][Y] I fully concur with your reading of the LN announcement!!
Making Disciples! Logos Ecosystem = LogosMax on Microsoft Surface Pro 7 (Win11), Android app on tablet, FSB on iPhone & iPad mini, Proclaim (Proclaim Remote on Fire Tablet).
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I can say that it is a bit like Intertainment with listening and ignoring.
Blessings in Christ.
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Mark Smith said:
If I can't afford the subscription or just choose not to subscribe, I will still have a very robust Bible Study program. No complaints.
This isn't apocalyptic. With the assurances Logos is giving, it just seems a bit like old times.
As an aside to affordability, I have been subscribing to the $14.99 monthly Faith Life Connect for a while. I even went annually a few times. A month ago I decided to buy the full feature set for Logos 10. Do I really need to continue the Connect subscription in hopes that I may get some future benefit from the AI subscription? It sounds like I already missed out on the early benefit by not subscribing immediately when the notice was given that new subscriptions were coming. (As reported by those who subscribed for $9.99)
Other than the mobile ed, I see no benefit to continue the Faith Life Connect after buying the full feature set. What say you?
Thanks,
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In a day and time where so many things are subscription-based (Microsoft 365, Amazon Prime, video streaming services, etc.), there's bound to come a point for some in which they will be cutting back on subscriptions just like there was a trend a few years ago on cutting cable television to save on pricy costs. I think this is bound to happen at some point as well with subscriptions in general (cutting subscriptions to save money). I think it would be wise for Logos to continue offering stand-alone purchases for features in the long run.
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Gerald said:
Other than the mobile ed, I see no benefit to continue the Faith Life Connect after buying the full feature set. What say you?
I agree. I am still collecting three books a month, but recognise that when the new plans come out, there is not much good left in keeping Faith Life Connect going forward. (it will be discontinued). I believe there is going to be a discount for current Faith Life Connect subscribers, so it is worth keeping until the new deal comes out.
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Speaking of Microsoft 365, while Microsoft would love to just have a subscription only, they know that they still have a significant part of their user base that is not interested in a subscription and still offer the periodic perpetual license purchases for Microsoft Office. Microsoft Office 2024 non-subscription version will be here in the not too distant future. They don't want to lose significant revenue and benefit from both subscription and one-time purchase customers. Office 2021 was the last purchasable version so it's been a wait but that's okay for many.
Hopefully Logos continues to do likewise.
In the end, if the short term features make it worthwhile I could end up with a subscription and a one-time purchase if it makes sense. But in the end, I want all the features rolled up into the next version.
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Mark Smith said:
Count me as one who is not concerned. Logos is not going away. In a sense they are going backwards - to Logo 6 and the Logos NOW subscription that brought us new features as soon as they were released. No waiting two years for the next release back then.
There will always be a free version of Logos, just as now. There will be some sort of permanent feature purchase option. Books will still be purchased not rented.
For perspective, maybe like me you subscribe to an anti-virus program, or a back-up program, a malware detection program, or a suite of Office apps. Like me you may buy a new version of your tax preparation or some other program every year. I don't complain about this. Maybe you don't either. We understand why we do this and why there is a subscription or recurring purchase required. I hope we'll see the Logos subscription the same way.
If I can't afford the subscription or just choose not to subscribe, I will still have a very robust Bible Study program. No complaints.
This isn't apocalyptic. With the assurances Logos is giving, it just seems a bit like old times.
Mark, I am with you all the way on this. I think this will overall be good because it gives another option for people to use for making the most out of Logos Bible Software.
Pastor, Mt. Leonard Baptist Church, SBC
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I am confused over how somethings are to be implemented under the new L11 Pro version:
Since it appears that the subscription is inclusive of 400+ books, what happens if you already OWN those books? Can other works be used instead?
I get that my owned books should work with it, but is the magical AI feature then LIMITED to those 400plus books?
If a user has, say, 4,000 books, the results of a Search All using AI will inherently be less than desirable. If the user has denominational specific books desired to be searched instead, is this possible? If only 400 books can be used, am I as a user allowed to swap the in and out with the collection? Sometimes in research a "compare and contrast" approach is helpful to understand other segments of the Body of Christ view a topic. My example here would be the Baptism in the Holy Spirit.
Disclaimer: I have not signed up for the early release tests of L11Pro, and don't think I will be now or in the future. Personally, I would expect that a proper development, testing and implementation of AI could take upwards of a year. By then, we are half way to L12....
"The resource from which God gives is boundless, measureless, unlimited, unending, abundant, almighty, and eternal." ~ Jack W. Hayford
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Terry Kleinsmith said:
I am confused over how somethings are to be implemented under the new L11 Pro version:
Since it appears that the subscription is inclusive of 400+ books, what happens if you already OWN those books? Can other works be used instead?
I get that my owned books should work with it, but is the magical AI feature then LIMITED to those 400plus books?
If a user has, say, 4,000 books, the results of a Search All using AI will inherently be less than desirable. If the user has denominational specific books desired to be searched instead, is this possible? If only 400 books can be used, am I as a user allowed to swap the in and out with the collection? Sometimes in research a "compare and contrast" approach is helpful to understand other segments of the Body of Christ view a topic. My example here would be the Baptism in the Holy Spirit.
Disclaimer: I have not signed up for the early release tests of L11Pro, and don't think I will be now or in the future. Personally, I would expect that a proper development, testing and implementation of AI could take upwards of a year. By then, we are half way to L12....
An All search searches the entire Logos catalog, while a Books search is limited to your Library, and you can filter a Books search by collections, tags, authors, etc.
The 400+ books are not priced in the subscription, but are included to help grease the wheels of the feature sets. Or something like that. In any case, the same books are presented to all subscribers, so it's highly doubtful they will be switched around on an individual basis. Or that the subscription cost will be subject to dynamic pricing based on which of these books we already own. Think of them as bonus books.
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Steven MacDonald said:
Speaking of Microsoft 365
I don't see the use of this comparison. MS Office is an office product. If it goes away, our files will convert to another Google docs or another program. But this is not the case with Logos.
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Terry Kleinsmith said:
Since it appears that the subscription is inclusive of 400+ books, what happens if you already OWN those books? Can other works be used instead?
Nothing! I have all all the books. If the case were to have the amount of books which one doesn't own that would be fair and understandable.
Blessings in Christ.
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The comparison is that having both streams of revenue is sustainable and Microsoft is one of the bigger examples.
I am glad Logos has listened to the feedback and has decided to do so for now. What that actually means remains to be seen.
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Mark said:
I don't see the use of this comparison. MS Office is an office product. If it goes away, our files will convert to another Google docs or another program. But this is not the case with Logos.
There is some truth to what you are saying. For me though, it didn't work out quite that way. When I upgraded my computer, I could no longer use an older version of Microsoft Office. I used some open-source programs for a while and they did work for most things, but not quite as clean and easy as Microsoft Office. Although not a fan of subscription, I looked into Microsoft 365 and reluctantly decided to give it a try. It is now unlikely that I would ever go back to the perpetual license purchase of Microsoft Office. What I have now just seems to do exactly what I need and is constantly updated without the need to purchase new versions.
To be clear, I am not comparing Microsoft to Logos. They are two completely different companies. I do have to say though, I feel that I have benefited by the extra things that Logos brings to my Bible study and will continue to bring, whether through purchase or subscription. While other entities may do an okay job, I don’t think that they can do as good a job as Logos.
Above all these things, walk in love, which is the bond of perfection. - Colossians 3:14
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