Logos/Verbum 10 FFS did not include 12 reverse interlinears by an oversight?

Vlad · 2024-11-30T13:25:54+00:00

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I own the Logos 10 Full Feature Upgrade, and also Verbum 10 Full Feature Upgrade (referred to as FFS below).

I did a check and found that the following 12 reverse interlinears were not included into the FFS, probably by an oversight, and I ask Logos Staff to review and confirm if this is so:

RVI:NRSVAPOC - New Revised Standard Version Apocrypha Reverse Interlinear
RVI:NRSVAPOCALT - New Revised Standard Version Apocrypha Reverse Interlinear (Alternate Texts)
RVI:AV1873APOC - The English-Greek Reverse Interlinear Apocrypha, Authorized English Version (1873)
RVI:AV1873APOCVAR - The English-Greek Reverse Interlinear Apocrypha Variants, Authorized English Version (1873)
RVI:KJVAPOCGRK - KJV Apocrypha English-Greek Reverse Interlinear
RVI:KJVAPOCVARGRK - KJV Apocrypha Variants English-Greek Reverse Interlinear
RVI:NCPBNT - The English-Greek Reverse Interlinear New Testament: New Cambridge Paragraph Bible
RVI:NCPBOT - The English-Hebrew Reverse Interlinear Old Testament: New Cambridge Paragraph Bible
RVI:NCPBAPOC - The English-Greek Reverse Interlinear Apocrypha: New Cambridge Paragraph Bible
RVI:NCPBAPOCVAR - The English-Greek Reverse Interlinear Apocrypha (Variant Texts): New Cambridge Paragraph Bible
RVI:NIV2011ANGNT - The English-Greek Reverse Interlinear NT New International Version (Anglicised Edtion, 2011)
RVI:NIV2011ANGOT - The English-Hebrew Reverse Interlinear OT New International Version (Anglicised Edtion, 2011)

Here is why I believe that it was an oversight:

The FFS product page said that it "includes every dataset and tool for biblical and theological research and study we have available":

As far as I understand, the philosophy of this was that the FFS contained the licenses to the datasets and tools (including reverse interlinears) which existed at the time when this product was released, and if I later purchase some extra bibles, I would automatically be able to use the reverse interlinears which correspond to them.

I received more than 100 reverse interlinears with the purchase of the FFS. Many/most of the reverse interlinears in the FFS came even without the corresponding bible licenses.
For example, here is a screenshot from the Verbum 10 FFS product page which tells that it included 120 interlinears:

2. I own the resource "The New Revised Standard Version" (LLS:1.0.50), and I received the following reverse interlinears for this bible with the purchase of the FFS:
RVI:NRSVNT - The English-Greek Reverse Interlinear New Testament New Revised Standard Version
RVI:NRSVOT - The English-Hebrew Reverse Interlinear Old Testament New Revised Standard Version
But I did not receive the other two interlinears for the same bible (for the apocryphal books):
RVI:NRSVAPOC - New Revised Standard Version Apocrypha Reverse Interlinear
RVI:NRSVAPOCALT - New Revised Standard Version Apocrypha Reverse Interlinear (Alternate Texts)

3. I received the following interlinears with the purchase of FFS (even without the license for The Cambridge Paragraph Bible itself):
RVI:AV1873NT - English-Greek Reverse Interlinear The Cambridge Paragraph Bible of the Authorized English Version: New Testament
RVI:AV1873OT - English-Hebrew Reverse Interlinear The Cambridge Paragraph Bible of the Authorized English Version: Old Testament
But I did not receive the other two interlinears for the same bible (for the apocryphal books):
RVI:AV1873APOC - The English-Greek Reverse Interlinear Apocrypha, Authorized English Version (1873)
RVI:AV1873APOCVAR - The English-Greek Reverse Interlinear Apocrypha Variants, Authorized English Version (1873)

4. I own the resource
LLS:1.0.4 - The King James Version Apocrypha
but I did not receive the licenses for its interlinears:
RVI:KJVAPOCGRK - KJV Apocrypha English-Greek Reverse Interlinear
RVI:KJVAPOCVARGRK - KJV Apocrypha Variants English-Greek Reverse Interlinear

The remaining 6 reverse interlinears listed above should also have been included for the same reason as the other 100+ reverse interlinears which were present in the FFS.

Could the Logos staff please confirm that the FFS should have included the above 12 reverse interlinears, and they were not included only by an oversight?

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Accepted answers

Joe McCune (Faithlife)

@Vlad Sorry for the late reply. We will be adding these Reverse Interlinears to the Full Feature Set so that they are available to all who own it.

All comments

DMB

I tried a few of those. The old complaint, you can't tell what you own (check licenses??).

But some I have from somewhere. Some, the resource shows the RI button but clicking it says no-can-do and can't find on the web store. Some, clicking it, says there is an RI but not for the Bible books in the resource (Gen, Exo, etc!). I 'own' both Logos and Verbum Full Features.

I'm 'honestly' not surprised. I've not understood the company's reluctance to show what a customer owns. And how they got it (when would be good too).

Vlad

I've checked the product pages for the bibles with the discussed 12 reverse interlinears:

https://www.logos.com/product/154152/new-revised-standard-version-with-reverse-interlinear
most likely contains all 4 reverse interlinear resources, including RVI:NRSVAPOC, RVI:NRSVAPOCALT

https://www.logos.com/product/154113/the-cambridge-paragraph-bible-of-the-authorized-english-version-with-reverse-interlinear
contains only 2 of 4 reverse interlinears, i.e. RVI:AV1873APOC and RVI:AV1873APOCVAR are not included in this Bible "with reverse interlinear"

https://www.logos.com/product/236/the-king-james-version-apocrypha
does not contain reverse interlinears, i.e. RVI:KJVAPOCGRK and RVI:KJVAPOCVARGRK could not be purchased

https://www.logos.com/product/24557/the-new-cambridge-paragraph-bible-with-the-apocrypha-rev-ed
does not contain reverse interlinears, i.e. RVI:NCPBNT, RVI:NCPBOT, RVI:NCPBAPOC, RVI:NCPBAPOCVAR could not be purchased

https://www.logos.com/product/33548/the-holy-bible-new-international-version-anglicised-nivuk
does not contain reverse interlinears, i.e. RVI:NIV2011ANGNT and RVI:NIV2011ANGOT could not be purchased

I expected to receive all these reverse interlinears with the purchase of the FFS, so that if I buy these bibles (and I do own some of them), I will be able to use them with the interlinears. But even if I would buy all these bibles, I will not receive the reverse interlinears for them, despite owning the Logos 10 FFS.

DMB

If I were you, I'd resurrect your thread whenever staff returns to FL (they're on a Safari to somewhere). I think some sort of answer is in order, especially with their L10 > subscription demands.

Jason Stone (Logos)

Thank you for asking, and for pinging me separately @NB.Mick. I've escalated this internally to see if I can get more context here.

Vlad

Jason and NB.Mick, thank you for looking into this.

I had some communication with the customer support about this topic via email, but their answers, unfortunately, were not to the point, and sometimes far-fetched.

For example, one of the replies from customer support was that "As the interlinear are books, this will depend on the contract with the publisher. If the publisher does not want their interlinears on a package, we can't add them."

First of all, the reverse interlinears are not books: they are supplemental dataset resources which could not be opened by themselves, and could only be used if the person owns the corresponding Bible resource. This point of view is also confirmed by the documentation on the Logos website:

https://support.logos.com/hc/en-us/articles/360057224111-Longacre-Genre-Analysis-Dataset#Dataset
Datasets are similar to Interlinear Bibles where words are annotated with a rich set of information. Interlinear Bibles feature built-in datasets that match grammatical information to the base text. When you expand the interlinear options menu to select the lines to display, you’re tapping into datasets.

Second, all 5 bibles which are related to the discussed 12 reverse interlinears are available for sale on the Logos website, — see the links in my previous post in this thread to the Bible product pages.

So I hope that your attention to this matter will allow to resolve the problem and allow me (and others who own FFS) accessing these 12 reverse interlinears which should have been included into the L/V 10 Full Feature Upgrade.

MJ. Smith

I can't find it now but originally the apocrypha was not in the premium level only in the pro level in the subscriptions. To say I thought that was silly was an understatement.

Vlad

MJ. Smith, the FFS did include some reverse interlinears for the apocrypha:

RVI:NEBAPOC - The New English (NEB) English-Greek Apocrypha Reverse Interlinear *
RVI:NEBAPOCVAR - The New English (NEB) English-Greek Apocrypha (Variants) Reverse Interlinear *
RVI:NRSVUEDCAPOC - The NRSVue English-Greek Reverse Interlinear Deuterocanon and Apocrypha
RVI:NRSVUEDCAPOCVAR - The NRSVue English-Greek Reverse Interlinear Deuterocanon and Apocrypha (Variant Texts)
RVI:REBAPOC - The Revised English (REB) English-Greek Apocrypha Reverse Interlinear
RVI:REBAPOCVAR - The Revised English (REB) English-Greek Apocrypha (Variants) Reverse Interlinear
* Your purchase includes this resource, which isn’t available yet. The resource will automatically download once it’s available.

Further, in my list of 12 reverse interlinears which were not included into FFS, there are 4 non-apocryphal interlinears.

So it seems that the omission was not centered only around apocryphal-related resources.

MJ. Smith

I didn't mean to imply it was the complete answer. A complete answer would include that the NRSVue interlinear was not available when L10 was released, IIRC.

Vlad

Hi MJ. Smith, the NRSVue was released in July 2022, so it was available when Logos 10 was released (in October 2022). And it is a fact that the Logos/Verbum 10 Full Feature Upgrade included the NRSVue interlinears, even though they were released in 2023. Also I did not understand why did you mention that "apocrypha was not in the premium level only in the pro level in the subscriptions", i.e. how these subscriptions could be related to this problem of some missing interlinears in the FFS product.

The description of the FFS product stated that it "includes every dataset and tool for biblical and theological research and study we have available", and reverse interlinears are also datasets, so they should have been included in the FFS.

DMB

Hopefully Jason's pinging the marketing folks will bear and bare fruit.

I'd be curious about the claim FF as 'all datasets' since Logos and Verbum were slightly different. Also, if any RIs were post-L10 (?).

Frank Sauer

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1348024#Comment_1348024

Hopefully Jason does get a response - because as Vlad points out, FFS was to include every dataset and tool available…. I had posted back in October with a similar question that you bumped and they ignored….

Frank Sauer

Here's the post from October -

https://community.logos.com/discussion/225930/full-feature-set-or-not-full-feature-set

Rick Brannan

It's been over a year since I've worked for Logos, so I can't speak with authority, but regarding these:

RVI:NRSVAPOC - New Revised Standard Version Apocrypha Reverse Interlinear
RVI:NRSVAPOCALT - New Revised Standard Version Apocrypha Reverse Interlinear (Alternate Texts)

These were originally aligned to the Rahlfs edition of the LXX, not to Swete's edition, so there are royalty implications for including them in packages. (They were created before a reliable version of Swete's edition of the LXX was available.) I don't believe that problem was solved when I left Logos in Sept 2023.

I can't say much about the others, but it may simply be that they have not yet been completed so cannot be delivered. But that is pure and wild speculation on my part and would need someone from Logos to confirm or deny.

Vlad

Hi @Rick Brannan, thanks for your comment.

The FFS product listed the included interlinears, and some of them were marked with the footnote saying that "Your purchase includes this resource, which isn’t available yet. The resource will automatically download once it’s available" (see an example in the screenshot in my first message in this thread). So, even if some interlinears were not finished, they were explicitly listed as included in the FFS package.

But as for the 12 interlinears listed in my first message in this thread, none of them were listed as included in the FFS. So, I'd like to ask @Jason Stone (Logos) or someone else from Logos to answer the question about these concrete 12 interlinears which were not included in the FFS.

Vlad

@Rick Brannan, I'd like to clarify about your comment about these interlinears:

RVI:NRSVAPOC - New Revised Standard Version Apocrypha Reverse Interlinear
RVI:NRSVAPOCALT - New Revised Standard Version Apocrypha Reverse Interlinear (Alternate Texts)

They were not included into the FSS, but they are still being sold e.g. here:

https://www.logos.com/product/154152/new-revised-standard-version-with-reverse-interlinear
https://www.logos.com/product/208060/logos-7-reformed-bronze-legacy-library
and in numerous other collections. So I don't get this argument about royalties because of Rahlfs vs. Swete editions of the LXX which these interlinears were aligned to. The FFS product was also sold, and not given away for free.

Rick Brannan

Hi @Vlad

As I said, I haven't worked there for over a year so I can't really respond regarding perspectives there now.

In the past there was hesitation to include items with higher royalties in packages/feature sets because it reduces (sometimes significantly) margin on packages depending on the royalty structure of the publisher agreements (or, alternately, drive an increased price). Unless its royalties have changed, Rahlf's LXX would have a higher (perhaps significantly higher) royalty than the edition of Swete's LXX that all the other LXX/Apocrypha interlinears use.

I wonder about the timing of the statement about "every dataset" being included (was it written when L10 FFS were released, and the non-NRSV Apocrypha reverse interlinears published after?). While I think you're correct to inquire about it, I think the answer probably has to do with too wide of a statement written by one team without the knowledge of the package makeup and available packages being effectively communicated by another.

Vlad

Hi @Rick Brannan,

Re timing: both RVI:NRSVAPOC and RVI:NRSVAPOCALT were available e.g. in 2018, i.e. long before Logos 10 was released.

And the other "non-NRSV Apocrypha reverse interlinears" from my list (RVI:AV1873APOC, RVI:AV1873APOCVAR, RVI:KJVAPOCGRK, RVI:KJVAPOCVARGRK, RVI:NCPBAPOC, RVI:NCPBAPOCVAR) were also available in 2020, i.e. long before Logos 10 was released.

The FFS product included over 100 reverse interlinears, most of them were included even without the corresponding bibles, and the reverse interlinears cannot be used unless the user has the license to the corresponding Bible resource.

The page https://www.logos.com/product/208060/logos-7-reformed-bronze-legacy-library
lists their value as $12.98:

Compare this e.g. with this product which is being sold and offers very "pricey" reverse interlinears:
https://www.logos.com/product/228533/verbum-10-espanol-conjunto-completo-de-funcionalidades

Believe me, the FFS page also listed reverse interlinears as very "pricey", and nevertheless they were all included.
So it seems that our guess about why these two interlinears were not included in the FSS is somewhat speculative, and I'd like to get some authoritative answer from Logos. My guess is still that these 12 interlinears were not included by an oversight.

Vlad

I can still purchase RVI:NRSVAPOC and RVI:NRSVAPOCALT for $5.05 (dynamic price) on this page:
https://www.logos.com/product/154152/new-revised-standard-version-with-reverse-interlinear
(I already own the NRSV and the other two interlinears: RVI:NRSVNT and RVI:NRSVOT).
I expected to get RVI:NRSVAPOC and RVI:NRSVAPOCALT with the purchase of the FFS, but they were not included.

Based on the dynamic price of $5.05 for RVI:NRSVAPOC and RVI:NRSVAPOCALT, it does not look like including them into the FFS would have driven an increased price or reduced the margin of the FFS, as @Rick Brannan suggested.

But it seems that the other 10 reverse interlinears from my list could not be purchased, although they do exist,
and the corresponding Bibles could still be purchased (see one my posts above with the list of 5 Bibles corresponding to the discussed reverse interlinears).

Rick Brannan

So it seems that our guess about why these two interlinears were not included in the FSS is somewhat speculative, and I'd like to get some authoritative answer from Logos.

It's not a guess for the NRSV apocrypha interlinears. I was there. The royalties on including that edition of the LXX were at that point expensive and prohibitive if including in collections or feature sets that didn't already have that LXX, which is why it was available for individual purchase.

How that translates to how Logos considers such things today is something I have no idea about and cannot comment on. I don't know why the page you reference says "every dataset/tool" beyond thinking that the person/team who wrote the description didn't have accurate information from the person/team that put together the FFS configurations, and the discrepancy is just there. I think it is a human mistake from when the copy for the page was written published.

I've speculated all I can, provided the relevant information that I have access to, there's not more I can do. I understand that isn't a satisfying answer for you, but it's all I've got.

John Goodman

Am I the only one who read the title FFS and thought… calm down bro?

Jason Stone (Logos)

I have opened a ticket to have this looked into further. Thank you all.

Yasmin Stephen

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1348956#Comment_1348956

I always thought it was an unfortunate abbreviation …

Vlad

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1348953#Comment_1348953

Rick, could you please explain this:
1) I do not own any Rahlfs edition of LXX
2) I own NRSV (LLS:1.0.50) and two corresponding reverse interlinears which I received with the purchase of the FFS: RVI:NRSVNT, RVI:NRSVOT
3) I do not own the remaining two reverse interlinears: RVI:NRSVAPOC, RVI:NRSVAPOCALT (I expected to receive them as part of the FFS)
4) The product page
https://www.logos.com/product/154152/new-revised-standard-version-with-reverse-interlinear
offers 5 resources: LLS:1.0.50, and all 4 interlinears
So, for me, the dynamic price on that page is $5.05, and the only new resources for me will be RVI:NRSVAPOC, RVI:NRSVAPOCALT

You said that "The royalties on including that edition of the LXX were at that point expensive and prohibitive if including in collections or feature sets that didn't already have that LXX, which is why it was available for individual purchase"

How this aligns with this dynamic price of $5.05 for purchase of these two interlinears (RVI:NRSVAPOC, RVI:NRSVAPOCALT), considering that I do not own Rahlfs edition of LXX?

Why I can buy just these two missing interlinears for $5.05 from the above page, but it would be "expensive and prohibitive" if they were included into the FFS?

Rick Brannan

As I said above:

I've speculated all I can, provided the relevant information that I have access to, there's not more I can do. I understand that isn't a satisfying answer for you, but it's all I've got.

Joe McCune (Faithlife)

@Vlad Sorry for the late reply. We will be adding these Reverse Interlinears to the Full Feature Set so that they are available to all who own it.

Vlad

@Joe McCune (Faithlife), many thanks!