FEEDBACK WANTED: New Resource Toolbar on Desktop

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Comments

  • Member, MVP Posts: 1,479

    I think the Dynamic Toolbar is central to the efforts of reaching a larger user base. I get that many (especially more experienced) users don't like it, but regardless of the cost I expect the response would be that it had to be done sooner or later. I don't entirely disagree. The visual filters button seemed to me like an unintuitive catch-all that was way too easy to get lost in.

  • Member Posts: 2,040 ✭✭✭✭

    Could be…. As much as I do not like it personally - I do hope that the gamble pays off in 'dedicated' new users - if it doesn't they've frustrated a number on long term faithful users by forcing it on them.

    Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 16 & Android 14

  • Member Posts: 40 ✭✭

    Then just simply give us an option in the menu.

    #1 everyone I know and everyone I've ever helped in tech wouldn't think this is easier to use. I've done tech support long enough to be absolutely convinced of this.

    #2 making things less efficient for power users is never the answer to making things more efficient for new users.

  • MVP Posts: 54,768

    #1 everyone I know and everyone I've ever helped in tech wouldn't think this is easier to use. I've done tech support long enough to be absolutely convinced of this.

    #2 making things less efficient for power users is never the answer to making things more efficient for new users.

    Logos has the statistics to show that the new format is more effective on the measures they were concerned about, As a power user, I find the new toolbar more efficient for the way I use Logos - why? primarily by the melding of panel menu and toolbar functions into a single toolbar - my biggest complaint is that "find" wasn't moved.; I also recognize that there are certain use cases that are common for some users that it has been a real pain for. Although I have no firm estimate on the percentage in this category, in my judgment the situation calls for tweaks not reversion.

    Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."

  • Member Posts: 40 ✭✭

    With everything I've read on this, with everything I've experienced helping people in my circle that have logos I just really doubt that's the case. No one in the world thinks that when you inline search a word, the only way to get out of that search is to manually like the "search" tab then click the "x". Then tab back to "home" or whatever I want to use. It's this stuff that makes me think Logos designers don't actually use their products they design them. It's like the old car engineer vs mechanic debate.

  • Member Posts: 4
    edited February 16

    People should be thankful we have God's Word in this country. There will be a time when we will be very grateful.

  • Member Posts: 559 ✭✭✭

    "It's this stuff that makes me think Logos designers don't actually use their products they design them."
    I've had that impression for a long time. Especially after the reshuffle that took place with new people leaving and joining the company.

    ____________

    "... And do not be grieved, for the joy of the LORD is your strength." (Ne 8.10)

  • Member Posts: 2,040 ✭✭✭✭

    I can't see how anyone programming this code could think that more clicks, having to look at the annoying blue 'New" link and having to close secondary menus every time you use the program is a good design….

    I see some argue that Logos has some magic numbers that show that users find tools better with this new toolbar - that doesn't prove it is a better toolbar, just that they marketed it more and with the forced open secondary toolbars or having to search for regularly used tools has allowed users to see other tool options they may not have used in the past…

    Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 16 & Android 14

  • Member, MVP Posts: 1,479

    One thing to keep in mind is that the Dynamic Toolbar is far more customizable. If a custom tab is introduced in the future along with the ability for toolbar status to be remembered and saved with the layout, you will have no more clicking problems. I've always seen the potential with this design, and I think the developers got a lot right.

  • Member Posts: 14,196 ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 21

    The apologists are having to work hard. I can't wait for the customizable menu that demands more clicks. We are talking FL.

    Yawn … oh wow, there's an interlinear button right there at the top. Click! nonSubscriber and nonUpdater.

    "If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.

  • Member, MVP Posts: 1,479
    edited February 21

    It should be recognized that this thread is not a very helpful location for a user to be linked to from the new button on the Dynamic Toolbar. I understand that it was helpful to encourage feedback. However, before the switch is made to roll out the toolbar to all users, please consider changing the link to something more helpful to those familiar with the old toolbar. I suggest the following page:

    https://support.logos.com/hc/en-us/articles/29439681440525-Where-do-I-find-on-the-dynamic-toolbar

  • Member Posts: 14,196 ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 21

    "If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.

  • Administrator, Logos Employee Posts: 1,993

    It should be recognized that this thread is not a very helpful location for a user to be linked to from the new button on the Dynamic Toolbar.

    We should have already made this change. Is it not working (I can't test it right now, because I don't see the "New" button anymore)?

  • Member, MVP Posts: 1,479

    Perfect Mark, thank you!! I mentioned this only from memory and, like you, can also not test it.

  • Member Posts: 962 ✭✭✭

    @Mark Barnes (Logos) — Are you saying that everyone should have the Dynamic Toolbar, whether they have a subscription or not? I have Logos 10 FFS with software version 40.0.345 and I still have the old Resource Toolbar.

  • Member, Community Manager, Logos Employee Posts: 110

    No, we have not made any changes to the license requirements for the dynamic toolbar in v40.

  • Member Posts: 40 ✭✭

    I regret upgrading so much. Logos is so much less useful than it used to be. They won't send you a .exe of an older version either. It's seriously criminal how much money I have paid them just for them to ruin the experience.

  • Member Posts: 1,438 ✭✭✭

    I would say just be patient. I got frustrated a lot at first trying to find certain functions. But almost all the functions I do use, I use a lot. Now it's routine. Logos is still the best thing that has happened to Bible study. I have other complaints far greater than the ones people are complaining about here, but like a lot of things, I speak up and hope somebody listens, but I don't count on it. So I adapt. That's 90% of life. Adapting to what life gives you.

  • Member Posts: 40 ✭✭

    All of the functions take longer to use now. That's the problem. Just pasting a verse into the sermon builder you have to pause and then hit enter. To turn on the interlinear it takes longer, to get out of a search it takes longer. I understand adapting. And I'm happy to adapt to meaningful changes. But web/program design is make things easier and faster not slower and more menu'd

  • Member Posts: 1,438 ✭✭✭

    And I have complaints about things they should have fixed in Logos 3. That makes things longer to do. But either that or I won't be able to do it at all. I certainly know what you are feeling. I have had that frustration many times. If I type in a reference, I have to wait a split second or it won't register. Speed is punished. I have always thought Logos was unresponsive to its users. It's still the best thing out there. Don't let this sap your joy. It still does amazing things. I have been watching MP seminars videos almost daily for two years. There is that much to learn.

  • Member Posts: 40 ✭✭

    But those things are useless if the slowness affects our daily lives. Sermon builder, for example, it for building sermons. It's 99% used by pastors. I don't know any pastors that have enough time in the day, but now, as you said, they punish speed. It's completely unacceptable for a program that we have dropped thousands and thousands into. My expenses in my lifetime are 1. Housing 2. Transportation 3. Education 4. Logos.

    I appreciate the new features, and I understand that some of it is just adapting. This isn't a matter of adapting. This is a matter of usability and legality (in properly citing quotations).

  • Member Posts: 1,438 ✭✭✭

    I was in and out of the ministry and most teaching long before I ever had Logos. From what I have seen of sermon builder, I can't see myself ever using it. I don't like citing quotations in other books where you don't know where somebody supposedly said something. Logos is good for citing references. I think quotations are overrated. I think people should be quoting me. You should think the same about yourself. Most sermons aren't worth the paper they are printed on. They add nothing to human knowledge or experience. Just the same pot stirred around a bit. Going back to sermon builder, I think it makes preachers think too much about format and they spend too much time arranging things, but they don't have anything really to say, something that the people haven't already heard dozens of times before. I'm going to bed now. Good talking with you. But, yes, there is Logos. It's not perfect. Use it for what you can. Sermon builder? Eh! Get something to say and the passion needed to say it, and the rest is not as important.

  • MVP Posts: 54,768

    @Josh Bernard

    The problem Logos faces is that those of us who heavily used features hidden in the panel menu find the new task bar much faster. The pause before hitting enter I've seen no change in - its always been a bit of a problem. They've spent work improving the interlinear to satisfy those who turn it on and off frequently. I recognize that there are people that it slows down but I also recognize that there are people that it speeds up. Unfortunately, Logos is used by such a wide array of users, there is no perfect answer. The thing to do Is to give yourself time to get used to it and to retrain muscle memory, then ask for very specific changes that you think would be an improvement.

    Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."

  • Member Posts: 40 ✭✭
    edited February 26

    You're right about somethings. The panel menu is probably better for discovery. It's just laid out horrible. There is so much dead space, and so much unnecessary clicks, that's the issue there. The search function for example could fit on every single option and should be able to be closed by pressing escape.

    As far as the sermon editor pause before hitting enter, you must not have used it much? Because it's atrocious. You used to be able to hit enter immediately, now it takes a solid second and if you have to edit a reference, oh my word you sometimes have to delete one letter at a time wait for the program to hickup and come back, then delete another one until it's all gone.

    It's also little things like Hebrew text is half the size it should be/used to be in Sermon Builder. Seriously no one tested that? What is going on here.

  • Member, MVP Posts: 2,193

    I have noticed the same change in the sermon builder and it is pretty annoying.

  • Member, MVP Posts: 1,479
    edited March 5

    Submitting an idea: I think it would be great to have a right click tab → hide toolbar setting that would minimize the entire toolbar all the way up to the tab until the user chose to reveal it again via right click tab → show toolbar. It would be advantageous for layouts with panels/tabs that never or hardly ever need changing.

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