Book Title Reformat

ASUNDER · 2025-03-02T01:00:50+00:00

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ASUNDER

In the Psalms, if I have these reformat settings:

it ends up putting the word 'title' there, sometimes.

But turning off 'one verse per line' fixes it to the desired format:

Maybe because Psalms is already one verse per line? Dunno.
But it will also add this word "title" to a passage list if the title of the chapter was included.

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Comments

MJ. Smith

It should be translation dependent. Some translations count the title as the first verse. Other translations treat it as a heading rather than a verse.

ASUNDER

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1360601#Comment_1360601

Ya, it's a bug. I'm asking for it to be fixed.

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1360605#Comment_1360605

No, its not a bug - its a difference in how various translations handle things. It would only be a bug if it didn't reflect the translation.

ASUNDER

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1360613#Comment_1360613

Man, does the word "title" appear on my paper KJV?

What do you mean by, "how it handles the translation?"

The 'One verse per line' toggle is what changes this. (If it were as you are saying, you would think the 'Non-Bible text' is what would cause it). I've only seen it with Psalms; not in chapter 1 or 2, but in 3, and onwards.

Is it supposed to say "title" on the passage list too?

MJ. Smith

A picture of a paper version tells me nothing about the Logos electronic versions …

at least some KJV use the term "title" and treat it as a referenced text - see red boxes.

As an example of translations differing - here is one that thinks title while the other thinks verse 1.

The 'One verse per line' toggle is what changes this.

No, the only thing that changes it within a given translation is the presence or absence of a title. Not all Psalms have them.

Is it supposed to say "title" on the passage list too?

Yes, that is the correct reference. It is required of an accurate reference.

ASUNDER

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1360618#Comment_1360618

Ok, so it's only happening with the KJV then (and whatever other version we don't currently know about). And maybe only with certain places. You know it's still a bug though, right?

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1360620#Comment_1360620

No, it is NOT a BUG - it correctly reflects the referencing scheme for that Bible; a difference that many have run into in small groups where the choice of Bible translations varies. But I have done all I can to help you see that. Perhaps, someone else can find the wording that will click for you.

ASUNDER

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1360621#Comment_1360621

You are declaring it's not a bug by telling me how the internal process works.
But this process results in the word "title" appearing when that is obviously undesired, making it a bug.
But it's a minor thing and sounds like it would take a lot of work to fix.

MJ. Smith

You are declaring it's not a bug by telling me how the internal process works.

No, I am declaring that it is not a bug because it is the standard way of referencing orally and in written works.

So I ask Perplexity: Some psalms have introductory lines that are called "title" or "verse 0" or "verse 1" depending upon the translation tradition. How did these differences arise?

The differences in how psalm introductions are labeled arose from varying translation traditions and manuscript practices:

Some ancient manuscripts, like the Greek Codex Sinaiticus, used rubrication (red ink) to highlight the psalm headings, distinguishing them from the main text.
Different traditions developed regarding whether to include the headings in the versification system:
- Some traditions count longer psalm headings as verse 1.
- Other traditions consider headings as "verse 0" or separate from the numbered verses6.
- Modern translations often visually distinguish headings from the main text using italics, capital letters, or smaller fonts3.
The Septuagint (Greek translation) versification counts longer psalm headings as verse 1, while modern versification typically counts headings as verse 0.
Some translations have treated these introductions differently:
- The 1976 Today's English Version moved them to footnotes.
- The 1970 New English Bible removed them entirely.
- The 1989 Revised English Bible reintroduced them.
Scholarly debates about the age and authenticity of the Hebrew titles have influenced how they are presented in different translations.

These varying approaches reflect the complex reception history of the psalm headings, which have been viewed as both integral to the text and as later editorial additions. The differences in labeling arise from attempts to balance fidelity to ancient manuscript traditions with modern conventions of biblical formatting and interpretation.

Or the smart all search asked Why do some psalms have title or verse 0 or verse 1 all referring to the same text? replies:

In the Psalms, there are variations in how the initial text is labeled, which can be referred to as the title, verse 0, or verse 1, depending on the translation or tradition. The Hebrew Bible typically includes psalm titles as part of verse 1 (or occasionally verses 1 and 2), while many English translations separate these titles from the main text[1][2]. Some commentaries, to align with English versions like the ESV, cite these superscriptions as "verse 0"[1]. This difference in numbering can result in a one-verse discrepancy between Hebrew and English texts for psalms with titles[2]. For instance, what is labeled as Psalm 3:2 in Hebrew would be Psalm 3:1 in most English versions[2]. These superscriptions often contain information about authorship, musical directions, or historical context[3][4].

[1] Ian J. Vaillancourt, Treasuring the Psalms: How to Read the Songs That Shape the Soul of the Church (Downers Grove, IL: IVP Academic: An Imprint of InterVarsity Press, 2023), ix.
[2] Peter C. Craigie, Psalms 1–50, 2nd ed., vol. 19, Word Biblical Commentary (Nashville, TN: Nelson Reference & Electronic, 2004), 42–43.
[3] W. Dennis Tucker Jr., “Psalms 107–150,” in Psalms, ed. Terry Muck, vol. 2, The NIV Application Commentary (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 2018), 916.
[4] Gerald H. Wilson, Psalms, vol. 1, The NIV Application Commentary (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 2002), 849.

Or I ask Perplexity how to reference psalm superscriptions

It replies:

To reference psalm superscriptions, follow these guidelines:

Use the appropriate terminology:
- "Superscription" is the most common term1 2.
- Some translations refer to them as "titles" or "headings"4.
Cite the superscription as part of the psalm:
- Include it as "verse 0" or before verse 13.
- Some translations number longer superscriptions as verse 11.
Format the reference:
- In academic writing, include the superscription when quoting or citing a psalm4.
- For example: "Psalm 51:0-1" or "Psalm 51, superscription and verse 1".
Be aware of translation differences:
- Some modern translations use italics, capital letters, or smaller fonts for superscriptions1.
- Others may place them in footnotes or omit them entirely1.
Consider the original language:
- In Hebrew texts, superscriptions are typically unnumbered6.
- The Septuagint (LXX) often includes additional information in superscriptions1 5.
Acknowledge their significance:
- Treat superscriptions as part of the inspired text when studying or teaching the Psalms2 7.
- Use them to provide context for the psalm's authorship, historical setting, or musical instructions2 3.

By following these guidelines, you can accurately reference and incorporate psalm superscriptions in your study or teaching of the Psalms.

But this process results in the word "title" appearing when that is obviously undesired, making it a bug.

Only if all verse numbers are also considered bugs. It is exactly the same thing - the identifier for that Bible's reference system.

ASUNDER

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1360623#Comment_1360623

Oh I see. Thanks for that info.

I didn't know what this Perplexity is. Looks interesting. Maybe Logos could get one of those in their own AI, for their library and a history of the authors etc.

You were asking me what does my paper KJV have to do with it. Well this is exactly why I took a picture of it. That you say it depends on the translation, but the word "title" doesn't appear with my KJV. So no KJV should have "title" on it anywhere. You say it could show up on other manuscripts or wherever else on purpose, but it shouldn't be on the KJV if it isn't on the physical copies.

Which is the source of my confusion. But it seems like this has already been looked at before.

MJ. Smith

Perplexity is one of the chatbots currently available - one that consistently tests high on accuracy. Perplexity is the link.

So no KJV should have "title" on it anywhere.

There are at least 8 companies publishing the KJV in the US currently. They are not identical. For your printed Bible to be relevant it must be the same edition from the same publisher as the Logos electronic version.

ASUNDER

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1360663#Comment_1360663

Good point. Mine is the "Christian Art Publishers". I chose it for the zip up weatherproofing.

Got a little baby one too. 🥰

Same publisher, so it's the same layout.

As for chatbots, I think that I'm going to go with a pixel 10 phone in the future. I could add on the Gemini package. I could talk to my phone at any time without having to go to a website.

In my opinion, Google is the only company with true AI, seeing as they have always had all the data. So their AI can be the only "legitimate" one since it's the only one with access to the whole world's data set. Basically everyone else has to go to Google to get data. They collect data from their own products, but Google has *all the data. Which opens up the cross- comparisons and analysis; where the other companies are blind to the things they don't have access to.

I can see a little bit of value having an AI assistant. You've shown a valid use here. I would only need one, if it's Gemini. Not sure if the $27 a month fee would be worth it though, unless I'm rolling in the dough and the cost is pocket change to me. Keeping in mind that Google has no love for Christianity, but I won't need it for anything in that area, seeing as I now have Logos.

MJ. Smith

Initially I used Gemini rather than ChatGPT complete with a 1 month subscription as I quickly found the additional functionality wasn't necessary. But I quickly moved to Perplexity which has a low rate of hallucinations - the most important measure for me.

Dave Hooton

@ASUNDER You were asking me what does my paper KJV have to do with it. Well this is exactly why I took a picture of it. That you say it depends on the translation, but the word "title" doesn't appear with my KJV. So no KJV should have "title" on it anywhere. You say it could show up on other manuscripts or wherever else on purpose, but it shouldn't be on the KJV if it isn't on the physical copies.

Neither does "title" appear in other translations, unless you Reformat with "one verse per line", which then displays the versification used by Logos, because it is treated as Bible text as in Hebrew bibles (e.g. Lexham Hebrew Bible) where it is verse 1, and verse 2 is the same as verse 1 in the translation.
So the tradition of most translations was to treat it as non-bible text i.e. a Title (or Pericope) and Logos decided to be consistent with Hebrew bibles but had to include title in the verse number.

NB. If you regard it as a Bug you should have posted in the English Forum and used appropriate Tags.

ASUNDER

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1361103#Comment_1361103

Ok thank you.

If it's a bug, then is reporting bugs not "feedback" ?
I was unaware of these tags you speak of. I'll make sure to check on that next time.

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