Handouts Remain Broken and Unusable

It's time to beat the drum. Handouts, handouts, Handouts. Fixem! Fixem! Fixem!

I love what they could be, I loathe what they are. The single biggest key to fixing most of what's wrong with handouts is to not check anything by default.

Do not autocheck anything. Ever.
Do not force fill any page. Ever.
Improve printing so that it doesn't force duplex (even with single side selected). (BUG: Duplex printing forced on handouts)
Speed it up: every change feels like I'm clicking in slow motion, every
modification took from 5-25 seconds to generate. That may not seem
like much but I had to keep changing the settings, spacing and so forth
in order to get it all on one page. (See: Related post., also This post)

Regarding #1 It's always the wrong stuff autochecked anyway. Don't do it. Deleting currently takes almost 60 seconds for each item. Am I supposed to take 1/2 an hour to bring a misbehaving document under control? That is not a recipe for usability. If you still want to be stubborn about forcing information on your handout, force two items: the passage and ONE word find. Do not force fill the page - ever.

Regarding #2 Force filling the pages forces WORKAROUNDS not solutions. Create a blank object and leave it blank? What kind of a solution is that? That's a kludge work around for a known issue/bug. It's not a fix, it's a patch. patches break.

Being "always ready to print" is NOT the same as full. Flip it around, just
because a page is full of information doesn't mean it's the right
information. Less is more. A single word find and the passage should
be enough but I have to create a blank section and add about a dozen
lines to "make it ready to print." Why not let blank be ready to
print? Then at least I can add what needs added.

Regarding #3 I'm hoping this bug will be fixed.

Regarding #4 I'm almost certain this bug will be fixed.

Related posts:

Handouts still Horrible in β4 and in β6
Handouts driving me crazy!
Suggestion: Organize information in the handout check list.
On the above link my Response to Darren.
Plan for Handouts?
BUG: Duplex printing forced in Handouts.

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Comments

Rich DeRuiter

I love what they could be, I loathe what they are.

I don't even see what they could be -- at least not with what are options are right now.

Now, if the were something like the old Lesson Builder program, that'd be cool!

SteveF

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/19045#Comment_19045

I, too, still use Lesson Builder all of the time!

But if the new handouts were meant to replace them, I would have to do a lot of copying and pasting to even come close.

Steve

James Brown

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/19068#Comment_19068

Handouts are unusable for me in that they do not print properly on my HP Officejet Pro L7780. They are not centered and text gets cut off on the edge.

I can print it to a PDF file and then get it to print correctly but cannot print 2 sided as it is sent to the PDF file then to the printer. I would have to print it to 2 sheets.

So not sure where the handout is going or how useful it would be for my purposes. I like the concept but need more control, especially over the printing (setup, margins, etc.)

Jim

Robert Pavich

It's time to beat the drum. Handouts, handouts, Handouts. Fixem! Fixem! Fixem!

I love what they could be, I loathe what they are. The single biggest key to fixing most of what's wrong with handouts is to not check anything by default.

Do not autocheck anything. Ever.

Do not force fill any page. Ever.

Improve printing so that it doesn't force duplex (even with single side selected). (BUG: Duplex printing forced on handouts)

Speed it up: every change feels like I'm clicking in slow motion, every
modification took from 5-25 seconds to generate. That may not seem
like much but I had to keep changing the settings, spacing and so forth
in order to get it all on one page. (See: Related post., also This post)

Not quite sure what you're getting at here Thomas...could you be more specific? [:D][:O][:O]

TCBlack

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/19169#Comment_19169

Not quite sure what you're getting at here Thomas...could you be more specific?

<Chuckle>Yeah, I could</chuckle>

For some reason this single issue really get's me going. Probably because I can see the value of a handout for my teen classes for instance but every time I try to create a usable one my blood get's to boiling. It's about there that I start writing some very specific comments.

I find that brotherly love and propriety force me to edit them down to these vague comments before hitting the "post" button though. [:D]

Abraham M. Payton Jr.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/19137#Comment_19137

I also have problems printing Handouts from the HP 7780.

Simon’s Brother

It's time to beat the drum. Handouts, handouts, Handouts. Fixem! Fixem! Fixem!

Keep preaching it brother... handouts a great idea that has oh so much work to do if they are ever going be seriously used by a single user.

There are the frontrunner to be dropped in L5 because of low usage statistics unless something is seriously done to rework the implementation of them.

TCBlack

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/20418#Comment_20418

Thanks Andrew,

But I have a feeling that while my passion for this won't abate, Logos needs to hear a few more people say, "yeah - me too!"

If it's broken for me, that's bad. If it's broken for many, that's a bug report that needs fixed.

This wheel ain't done squeaking. But two simple fixes could go a long way:

Never autoselect anything. Ever.
Never force fill a page. Ever

As of β8 all of the same problems plague handouts. If you want them used they must be fixed.

LimJK

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/20484#Comment_20484

But I have a feeling that while my passion for this won't abate, Logos needs to hear a few more people say, "yeah - me too!"

Ken Shawver

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/20513#Comment_20513

Thomas/Andrew, count me in on the Handouts. It's a great idea, love the concept, but we need the execution in order to take full advantage of them. It would be a great addition to some of my discipleship classes, but as long as they are broken they aren't usable.

Please, oh please, oh please, let's get the Handouts fixed sooner rather then later.

Okay there's my pleading for Handouts. In all seriousness, we need to have them fixed to exploit this great concept.

J.R. Miller

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/20514#Comment_20514

After reading Thomas' incessant posts. I have to say, I am a convert to his way of thinking.

TCBlack

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/20552#Comment_20552

After reading Thomas' incessant posts

There now, makes it sound like you'll say anything to get rid of me.

Frank Sauer

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/20556#Comment_20556

Not sure how much time has been invested into handouts by Logos, but that time would have been much better served with converting the Sermon File add-in prior to release and putting the handouts as something for post release.

J.R. Miller

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/20556#Comment_20556

After reading Thomas' incessant posts

There now, makes it sound like you'll say anything to get rid of me.

I did mean it as a positive, but maybe my word choice was not well thought out. Your persistence though has convinced me that your approach is the best solution to a poorly designed component. [:D]

Simon’s Brother

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/20552#Comment_20552

After reading Thomas' incessant posts. I have to say, I am a convert to his way of thinking.

Lets pray that its a case of :

"Yet because Thomas kept bothering Logos Bible Software, the listened to his [great] ideas on handouts, so that he would not beat them down anymore because of his continual posting."

Logos 18:5 (LSV)

Kenneth Morris

It's time to beat the drum. Handouts, handouts, Handouts. Fixem! Fixem! Fixem!

I love what they could be, I loathe what they are. The single biggest key to fixing most of what's wrong with handouts is to not check anything by default.

Do not autocheck anything. Ever.

Do not force fill any page. Ever.

Improve printing so that it doesn't force duplex (even with single side selected). (BUG: Duplex printing forced on handouts)

Speed it up: every change feels like I'm clicking in slow motion, every modification took from 5-25 seconds to generate. That may not seem like much but I had to keep changing the settings, spacing and so forth in order to get it all on one page. (See: Related post., also This post)

Regarding #1 It's always the wrong stuff autochecked anyway. Don't do it. Deleting currently takes almost 60 seconds for each item. Am I supposed to take 1/2 an hour to bring a misbehaving document under control? That is not a recipe for usability. If you still want to be stubborn about forcing information on your handout, force two items: the passage and ONE word find. Do not force fill the page - ever.

Regarding #2 Force filling the pages forces WORKAROUNDS not solutions. Create a blank object and leave it blank? What kind of a solution is that? That's a kludge work around for a known issue/bug. It's not a fix, it's a patch. patches break.

Being "always ready to print" is NOT the same as full. Flip it around, just because a page is full of information doesn't mean it's the right information. Less is more. A single word find and the passage should be enough but I have to create a blank section and add about a dozen lines to "make it ready to print." Why not let blank be ready to print? Then at least I can add what needs added.

Regarding #3 I'm hoping this bug will be fixed.

Regarding #4 I'm almost certain this bug will be fixed.

Related posts:

Handouts still Horrible in β4 and in β6

Handouts driving me crazy!

Suggestion: Organize information in the handout check list.

On the above link my Response to Darren.

Plan for Handouts?

BUG: Duplex printing forced in Handouts.

Yeah, what he said.

spitzerpl

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/20660#Comment_20660

So...what are we going to talk about when Logos provides us with Handout Nirvana?

TCBlack

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/20667#Comment_20667

I don't know Philip,

We may be forced to return to indexing. Problem with that is, I like the new temporary index for new resources idea.

Simon’s Brother

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/20667#Comment_20667

So...what are we going to talk about when Logos provides us with Handout Nirvana?

Do you really want to go there Philip....[6]

1. The fact I have no way to do a personal backup of my investment in this product beyond creating an image file of my drive that its installed.

2. The fact I can't see what is downloading or for that matter what downloads I should have received.

3. The fact that choose my prefered bible is on the home page ribbon without my consent (i.e. I have no way to change that behaviour when it is surplus to my requirments).

4. The fact that lectionary plan is on the home page ribbon without my consent (i.e. I have no way to change that behaviour if it doesn't meet my requirments) that I must have wanted to open.

5. No verse list feature in L4 final release

6. The other features that we have paid for in the past, but won't be in L4 final release and no gaurantee of when we will get them back.

7. The lack of ability to determine what the default behaviour of the program is when I use the go box on home page i.e. choice of using my custom guides and which ones.

8. Bible Explorers hodge podge of media resources that it pulls up...

9. The fact that when I access a reading plan from home page it closes down all my windows and opens up a whole lot of others that someone has determine without my consent (i.e. I have no way to change that behaviour if it doesn't meet my requirments) that I must have wanted to open.

10. The fact that when I access a lectionary from home page it closes down all my windows and opens up a whole lot of others that someone has determine without my consent (i.e. I have no way to change that behaviour if it doesn't meet my requirments) that I must have wanted to open.

11. The fact that I can't control the number of excerpts, devotionals, blog posts etc that are placed on my home page if i turn on any of these features and that things like the choice of excepts are completely random instead of being able to choose a topic or passage relevant to my current study interests.

That's just a few converstation starters beyond handouts.

Damian McGrath

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/20848#Comment_20848

Do you really want to go there Philip....

Andrew, are you wearing your cranky pants? [:S]

Seriously, I've been where you are; and to a certain extent, I still am.

It took me two weeks to discover that I wasn't imagining the lack of an update to Anchor Bible Dictionary. Since then, I've received no further word.

I still don't have a New Jerusalem Bible with all the Bible Milestones even though other users do.

It took two weeks to get access to a SESB BHS which was correctly tagged, even though one was readily available.

I still don't know if I'm missing anything else.

More to your point, I would also like more control. Why not a Program Settings (Basic) and a Program Settings (Advanced).

spitzerpl

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/20848#Comment_20848

Do you really want to go there Philip....

...and here I thought my reference to Nirvana would get at least a one bullet statement response on a Logos forum :-)

Simon’s Brother

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/20865#Comment_20865

Do you really want to go there Philip....

Andrew, are you wearing your cranky pants?

Seriously, I've been where you are; and to a certain extent, I still am.

I thinkthat now that Logos has made some excellent progress in the issue of indexing which was consuming a lot of us early on, its just a case that the implications of some of these others things are now starting to surface and become more clearer. So.....

When it come to have my right to back up the license to a product I have paid thousands and thousands of dollars for the privellege of using .... yes I am very much wearing my cranky pants. This really is a totally unacceptable situation and based on this reason alone I will not be able to recommend new users to start out with this software. Its just plain wrong. Logos is saying we don't trust our customers ...doesn't do a lot to build up good will with a customer when you go down that path.

When it comes to things I've paid for in the past and have now been told they are devalued based on a usage statistic and so will return at some point in the future.. or not at all .yes I am wearing my cranky pants. Low usage statistic could also be telling you:

1) the feature has not been implemented very well and needs more work on it; or

2) the purpose and or usage of the feature has not been very well explained ; or

3) if its a pay for feature, its simply over priced for the market

When addition to features being removed users are being told we didn't plan on porting your notes from L3 over to L4 and will now look at doing that on a minimal level ...also I can very much understand why users would be wearing cranky pants about that one....if we can't trust that features we like will still be there in the next release because of some usage statistics and whether notes we create will be able to port to the next version .... then yes users are going to get v. cranky and I think another reason I really would struggle to recommend someone new to start out with this software at this point.

When the applicaiton starts doing things without my consent overwriting layouts etcs just because I click on a link to open a reading plan or something else ... then yes I am very much wearing my cranky pants.

When you have a feature like handouts that just produces a mishmash of disjointed useless pieces of informaiton and the software developers only resonse seems to be - that's the way we desgined it to work - but a really useful feature like verse list is deemed not important enought to be in this release - yes I am wearing my cranky pants on both fronts.

And I could continue but will stop there but say in summary of all those other things I could is that by putting L4 on permanent training wheels Logos is saying to their customers we think you are really dumb and can't make choices for yourself - once again not the way to build good will. This also gives the application an image problem in terms of it being a suitable product for serious student of the bible. The training wheels are great for a time but we all must move on from them and for the majority of us here in this beta test we certainly don't need training wheels but what we do need is clear, concise explanations in a help file that is accessible to all.

Robert Pavich

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/21064#Comment_21064

yes I am very much wearing my cranky pants. This really is a totally unacceptable situation and based on this reason alone I will not be able to recommend new users to start out with this software. Its just plain wrong. Logos is saying we don't trust our customers ...doesn't do a lot to build up good will with a customer when you go down that path.

Does the term beta mean anything to you? [:D]

As Bob has said. This is not a mandantory move...you can continue with V3; he said many users are still in V2 for the same reason you don't like V4....

It's a voluntary upgrade.

Simon’s Brother

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/21069#Comment_21069

yes I am very much wearing my cranky pants. This really is a totally unacceptable situation and based on this reason alone I will not be able to recommend new users to start out with this software. Its just plain wrong. Logos is saying we don't trust our customers ...doesn't do a lot to build up good will with a customer when you go down that path.

Does the term beta mean anything to you?

As Bob has said. This is not a mandantory move...you can continue with V3; he said many users are still in V2 for the same reason you don't like V4....

It's a voluntary upgrade.

Yes the term means very much to me and because it is a beta I very much should be raising my concerns about these things. Robert there is no point until waiting after this product has been release and then saying I don't like these things but didn't say anything about them because it was only a beta and so thought they might change and didn't raise them. If they are not yours thats great for you. I don't need your permission to express what concerns me. Logos gave me that permission when they invited me to participate in this beta program. I think they know I am a straight shooter when it comes to these things.

I will never understand users who are critical to the level you seem to be of me raising my concerns. If you can show me where I am misgudied in my thought by all means do so - is there some way of me backing up my license locally without relying on a server or a person at the other end to send me a licsence file that I've missed. Correct me and I'll be happy on that point. However, stating someone can continue with v3 is a very poor response from Logos as they know they will not continue to support it in terms of fixing bugs in it or developing new resources and I certainly do not need another user telling me that sort of thing or are you on the Logos payroll. You have had your say throughout this beta on things you don't like. I have not chosen to tell you to stick with v3 if I thought differently to you on any point and would not dream of do so - I don't have the right to devalue your concerns if I disagree with them. Please do likewise in future.

Damian McGrath

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/21064#Comment_21064

.... yes I am very much wearing my cranky pants.

Andrew, cranky pants on or off, I'd like to affirm you for expressing your reactions to the Beta program.

We could all respond like Apple Fanbois, saying "yay Bob, way to go!!!" about everything, but then we would not have seen some of the very valuable changes we have already seen in the Beta. Remember, the iPhone didn't have "cut and paste" for TWO YEARS!!!!! That's what you don't get for just clapping and cheering loudly.