surely not 50%+ better ?!

I was excited to see vyrso.com offering "thousands" of Christian books. My delight was short-lived however. Although their selection in Christian ebooks may be broader (can anyone confirm that, maybe by posting Vyrso books that are not yet availble on Amazon) than Amazon's at the moment, I am amazed that Logos is charging 50% more than the same item on Amazon.

Yes, Vyrso links scripture verses, but this may be the only value added thing going for it. I for one would prefer reading my Logos books (or Christian trade books) on a Kindle and not visa versa.

What am I missing? What features would justify me paying 50% or MORE for such a commodity item? A book is a book is a book.

I am sorry, but I would rather LOGOS focus on what they do best - designing a state of the art BIBLE study program!

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DMB

Logos was pretty 'up front' at the start that Vyrso was an 'add on' to its main business.

From what you're observing, it looks like they're also using their same business model (higher regular prices, with periodic heavy discounting to drive traffic).

But even so, remember a buck (or ruble?) 'contributed' to Vyrso is the same contributed to Logos' Bible operation, software, new resources, etc. Looking on the positive side (trying anyway).

toughski

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/288482#Comment_288482

Oh, I am grateful for .99 or 1.79 books, I just hope that they are publisher's discounts and not LOGOS'.

I don't know whether their business model is sustainable. Aside from these deep discounted specials, I don't think I can afford their regular prices. I do remember, however, that Amazon was operating at a loss for several years after its launch. Just look where they are now.

As an aside, I found this book that is NOT available on Kindle yet:

Stepping Up: A Call to Courageous Manhood for $1.99

Paul N

What am I missing? What features would justify me paying 50% or MORE for such a commodity item? A book is a book is a book.

With these trade books, that may or may not be offered by Amazon (due to lack of demand), by many of the same authors writing many of the commentaries we own, the search results in Logos libraries are enhanced. Then if you own an Android or Apple mobile device/tablet you can read these books just like nearly the rest of your Logos library on the go.

Initially I was hesitant as to how easy on the eyes the iPad would be but have found it not a problem.

NB.Mick

What titles did you look at, Vladimir - Novels?

I shared earlier that I bought two titles that don't belong to the -,99 list:

http://vyrso.com/product/11872/mid-course-correction-re-ordering-your-private-world-for-the-second-half-of-life

vyrso: 14,39, Kindle: 12:20, Vyrso is up on Amazon's prize by 18% (which I didn't compare beforehand, but since I don't have a kindle device, just the PC reader program from Amazon which I personally dislike, I'd rather be able to take notes and enjoy the Logos integration)

http://vyrso.com/product/14142/return-to-rome-confessions-of-an-evangelical-catholic

vyrso: 12,74 Kindle: 12:20, Vyrso is up on Amazon's prize by mere 4%

Sure enough Logos can't beat Amazon prizes except for promotional offers - and that's fine for me. But were did you see Logos charging over 50% more?

toughski

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/288491#Comment_288491

What titles did you look at, Vladimir - Novels?

Actually, I have listed "on sale" items by price and went through 13 pages selecting books I would like. I have only 5 books in my cart (4 of .99 and one 1.99). Once all the "loss-leaders" ended (around $2.29 price-point) Amazon was offering a cheaper price. Having gone through 195 Vyrso on-sale offerings, I picked up 4 and added another 6 to my Kindle wishlist.

But were did you see Logos charging over 50% more?

the very first book I opened from Vyrso's site was The Principle of the Path for 15.99, it is 10.98 on Kindle (45.63% more)

second random book I opened was Eternity Now! Encountering the Jesus of Revelation for 15.99, it is 8.99 on Kindle (77.86% more)

third book The Hole in Our Gospel: What does God Expect of Us? The Answer That Changed My Life and Might Just Change the World was 17.24 on Vyrso, but only 9.43 on Kindle (83% more)

I can go on, I really did compare many books...

JT (alabama24)

What am I missing? What features would justify me paying 50% or MORE for such a commodity item? A book is a book is a book.

Vladimir -

Let me give you my thoughts on the subject.

1) Amazon sells MANY books using a technique called a "lost leader." The theory is that people will purchase one thing at a great discount and many more with less of a discount. They also lose money on eBooks and make money on kindles. Logos and other retailers are not able to keep pace for long.

2) There are people who are willing to buy anything from a "Christian" business. Personally, I am more willing to purchase a book from a "mom and pop" shop with GOOD customer service. I see Logos in this way. If I don't get good customer service I go to Wal-Mart. If you are going to get bad service, you might as well save money. I RARELY purchase from chain "Christian" book stores.

3) When considering eBooks, my decision process runs like this: What do I need the book for? How might I use the book in the future? Vyrso has many fiction titles (like my favorite to make fun of "Amish Romance Novels"). I am not likely to read these ever again, and it is unlikely I would want them for illustration purposes. In this case, I will go the cheap route. On the other hand, you mentioned "The Principle Of The Path." That is a book I am going to want to take notes in, and may use for sermon helps / illustrations, etc. I am very likely to purchase it in Vyrso, even if it is more expensive than Kindle. I WILL want it in Logos. You asked what is "value added" through Vryso. One thing I know is that many kindle books are limited in how much you can copy. I don't think this is the case with Vyrso books. (copyright laws still apply).

Matthew C Jones

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/288490#Comment_288490

Then if you own an Android or Apple mobile device/tablet you can read these books just like nearly the rest of your Logos library on the go.

I have never purchased an eBook from Amazon. Do they allow you to access the book from multiple devices? I was under the impression they do not. Very few companies are as forward looking as Logos. I appreciate Bob Pritchet allowing use on multiple devices. That alone is worth a higher price to me. I have been perusing the Vyrso store and see many I want to add to my library. When I compare similar Vyrso books to regular Logos resources, I save every single time.

spitzerpl

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/288541#Comment_288541

Then if you own an Android or Apple mobile device/tablet you can read these books just like nearly the rest of your Logos library on the go.

I have never purchased an eBook from Amazon. Do they allow you to access the book from multiple devices? I was under the impression they do not. Very few companies are as forward looking as Logos. I appreciate Bob Pritchet allowing use on multiple devices. That alone is worth a higher price to me. I have been perusing the Vyrso store and see many I want to add to my library. When I compare similar Vyrso books to regular Logos resources, I save every single time.

They do. They have apps for just about every devise out there.

As far as the original poster stated, I would pay more (within reason) for a Vyrso/Logos purchase than an Amazon one. The primary reason being the value of keeping everything in one library. Suppose I'm reading along in a Vyrso book and think part of the story I'm reading would make a good illustration if I'm ever preaching through a particular passage. Logos makes recording and recalling that later much easier. As far as what within reason means, I would measure it more by dollars then percents. It might be worth it to me to pay 4 dollars more for a $15 amazon purchase, which is 26%. However I would not pay %26 more (most likely) for a $52 purchase. I guess it would end up being a case by case basis.

NB.Mick

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/288541#Comment_288541

When I compare similar Vyrso books to regular Logos resources, I save every single time.

There is one exception I noted: J.I Packers work http://www.logos.com/product/568/growing-in-christ is 15 USD in Logos. Note to Vladimir: this is a case where the Logos (not Vyrso) resource is approximately 50% more expensive, as Amazon sells the kindle edition of this for 9.65.

This book has been split up into three works by Crossway, two of which are in Vyrso:

http://vyrso.com/product/14359/affirming-the-apostles-creed (7.19 USD - Kindle would be 7,24, i.e. Vyrso is cheaper here as Amazon) and http://vyrso.com/product/14474/keeping-the-ten-commandments (8.99 USD - Kindle would be 9.65 i.e. Vyrso is cheaper here again).

the third, praying the Lords prayer is not available either for Vyrso or for Kindle, Amazon sells paper for 9.34

Buying the Logos resource will let you save 1.20 versus the two Vyrso books, you receive the Logos-tagging instead of the ePub-tagging plus get the third part of the book for free!

toughski

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/288524#Comment_288524

What am I missing? What features would justify me paying 50% or MORE for such a commodity item? A book is a book is a book.

Vladimir -

Let me give you my thoughts on the subject.

1) Amazon sells MANY books using a technique called a "lost leader." The theory is that people will purchase one thing at a great discount and many more with less of a discount. They also lose money on eBooks and make money on kindles. Logos and other retailers are not able to keep pace for long.

2) There are people who are willing to buy anything from a "Christian" business. Personally, I am more willing to purchase a book from a "mom and pop" shop with GOOD customer service. I see Logos in this way. If I don't get good customer service I go to Wal-Mart. If you are going to get bad service, you might as well save money. I RARELY purchase from chain "Christian" book stores.

3) When considering eBooks, my decision process runs like this: What do I need the book for? How might I use the book in the future? Vyrso has many fiction titles (like my favorite to make fun of "Amish Romance Novels"). I am not likely to read these ever again, and it is unlikely I would want them for illustration purposes. In this case, I will go the cheap route. On the other hand, you mentioned "The Principle Of The Path." That is a book I am going to want to take notes in, and may use for sermon helps / illustrations, etc. I am very likely to purchase it in Vyrso, even if it is more expensive than Kindle. I WILL want it in Logos. You asked what is "value added" through Vryso. One thing I know is that many kindle books are limited in how much you can copy. I don't think this is the case with Vyrso books. (copyright laws still apply).

it appears Amazon set a clipping limit of 10% for copyrighted books and 100% for non-DRM books. in any case one can still make a note in L4 for a Kindle book by copying and pasting.

I totally agree with you about a distinction between a "read once" and a "reference" resource. However, even in a case of trade book in "reference" status Vyrso's markup is unjustified in my opinion. I totally see the value of having all of my library in one place, but (like many of you) I also have a personal computer and a work computer that I depend on. So the "one place library" just like "only one computer" is not an absolute must.

I dig Logos integration (I have Portfolio after all), and LOGOS already provided a way for me to go cheap (read non-Logos) for books that are not for heavy research (basically everything that is not a commentary, lexicon or dictionary, even including illustration-rich resources like Lucado's books, which USED TO BE topically indexed in L3[:(] ) I have created a PBB with all pertinent quotes and my observations about a kindle book, which allows me to have my cake (buy cheap) and eat it too (have it indexed and integrated with L4). As a matter of fact, this process is really streamlined and is faster and easier than Sermon Add-On used to be. You can edit Kindle note from within PBB!

Some people are already doing a similar thing in Sermon prep. Because of inadequate note-taking feature of L4, people are using Evernote, OneNote, Word, etc, but then copy/paste it back in L4 (whether as a note, SAO or PBB) for indexing.

Using a dead-tree analogy, we are talking about buying a hardcover book with ample margins (Logos or Vyrso resource) or cheap paperback in which you can insert your own paper for notes.

Paul N

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/288664#Comment_288664

I'm not sure I'm understanding why some users are putting such an extremely high priority (hill to die on level) on prices in Vyrso, especially in regard to Amazon.com. I value more having all of my resources "on one shelf" instead of needing two programs to access them. Now I won't buy the resources that are hard to pay for, but as of yet haven't felt the pressure of price matching at other websites. The Crossway books at $8.99 have been great so far!

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/288676#Comment_288676

Price does matter from a retail standpoint. Most people think it's a rational decision, but it depends on the demographic.

For example, we like to drive up to Flagstaff (45 minute drive), stop by the used book store next to the university, browse, and hopefully buy.

Prices for religious used books are typically $10-12. So when the price pops up to $18, then suddenly that's a no-go! Why?

But after shopping, we hop in our car, spend $10-12 of gasoline without thinking about it. And on arrival at home, spend $50 on Logos books.

Here on Logos, it's easy to see on CP. It's hard to get CP purchasers, until the book 'goes over the top'. The price was almost the same throughout. Why does a person suddenly 'buy' at the last minute?

JT (alabama24)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/288664#Comment_288664

I totally agree with you about a distinction between a "read once" and a "reference" resource. However, even in a case of trade book in "reference" status Vyrso's markup is unjustified in my opinion.

In another thread I did some research, and here is what I found. The original poster found a book that was 1/3 the cost on Amazon. I think that this is an extreme case. I have not found many books to be so different. I clicked on a random book (A Veiled Reflection). The Vyrso price was less than a dollar in difference. "Recovering Biblical Manhood and Womanhood" is unavailable on Kindle, and the Vyrso price is almost half of the Amazon print price. "For the Family’s Sake" is the same price on both sites.

My recommendation would be for you to comparison shop when you are looking to buy a book. If the book is just for pleasure (i.e. a "dime" novel), I am with you - I am going to go for the cheapest price.

I totally see the value of having all of my library in one place, but (like many of you) I also have a personal computer and a work computer that I depend on. So the "one place library" just like "only one computer" is not an absolute must.

I am "totally" lost. [;)] I am not following how your illustration contributes to your argument. It adds to mine. It would stink to be at work 20 miles from home and wish my book was on my work computer instead of my home computer. It would also stink if I missed a great illustration because I bought a kindle version of "The Principle of the Path" instead of the Vyrso. I am much more likely to use something if I remember it, and Logos 4 "remembers it" for me through their search capabilities, even without a fully tagged Logos book.

toughski

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/288686#Comment_288686

I am "totally" lost. I am not following how your illustration contributes to your argument. It adds to mine. It would stink to be at work 20 miles from home and wish my book was on my work computer instead of my home computer. It would also stink if I missed a great illustration because I bought a kindle version of "The Principle of the Path" instead of the Vyrso. I am much more likely to use something if I remember it, and Logos 4 "remembers it" for me through their search capabilities, even without a fully tagged Logos book.

My argument is that although the ideal situation is to have only one library and only one personal computer, the reality is that we have fragmentation and that we learn to manage two separate yet connected computers and likewise we can learn to manage two libraries. It is not ideal, but at some price point, I am willing to do some extra work to be Logos integrated. I can access my home network from anywhere in the world (with an internet connection, of course) and get any file I need.

The original poster found a book that was 1/3 the cost on Amazon. I think that this is an extreme case. I have not found many books to be so different. I clicked on a random book (A Veiled Reflection). The Vyrso price was less than a dollar in difference.

ok, you are setting a false standard for this argument. Let's look at the facts:

A Veiled Reflection - Amazon price 5.59 and Vyrso's - 6.29. Difference is ONLY .70, why such a big fuss. This is what you focus on. I say it is 12.5% markup. If you have a library of 4000 titles, what is the difference? Let me illustrate it this way - it is like buying everything on credit and carrying the balance. It is convenient, but you get the same product as paying cash.

I am not disputing the value of L4 search/indexing, I can have pertinent
quotes, illustrations and my comments from a Kindle book searched and
indexed by Logos for FREE via one manual step that would take less time
than drinking a cup of coffee. You should try it before you tout your
way as the only or best way [;)].

Yes, Vyrso has loss-leaders for .99 (but only around 70 of them at the moment). I am happy to oblige and purchase them on Vyrso. Same as with Community Pricing and Pre-Pubs. I am happy to get something at deep discount, but for the rest of the books, it is a case-by-case basis. 1001 Quotations That Connect is a good example of paying extra 15.6% for a whole lot in terms of L4 integration (they have scripture references linked to quotes, which are indexed by topics as well. Most other trade books are NOT that integrated).

The business reality is very tough for Logos. Logos is the middle-man between the publisher (who controls the rights and price) and the demanding consumer (who has options and controls his or her spending). Logos is basically at the mercy of both, unless they provide something that other online retailers can't.

So to summarize, outside of being indexed by L4 (which can be done for kindle books with a quick workaround) and having the whole library in one place, there is no value added by Vyrso. Am I missing anything?

toughski

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/288490#Comment_288490

With these trade books, that may or may not be offered by Amazon (due to lack of demand), by many of the same authors writing many of the commentaries we own, the search results in Logos libraries are enhanced.

[:D]I am not trying to be argumentative, I really want to know. How are our search results enhanced? Can you give a specific example?

toughski

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/288545#Comment_288545

Suppose I'm reading along in a Vyrso book and think part of the story I'm reading would make a good illustration if I'm ever preaching through a particular passage. Logos makes recording and recalling that later much easier.

If I am reading a Vyrso book on android or iPad, am I able to add notes and highlights? If you are simply referring to reading Vyrso books on a desktop than it is moot point, because you can accomplish the same with Kindle.

JT (alabama24)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/288692#Comment_288692

Vladimir -

I hope you are enjoying the discussion. I don't think you are being argumentative - I hope you don't think I am either. There will always be a segment (perhaps a large one) who will make purchases solely based upon price. I am often that way too, as I have mentioned in earlier posts. There are some things, however, that I am willing to spend more money on. For example - I am willing to drink Starbucks less often to get GOOD coffee, than to drink McDonald's more often. It's a personal choice.

you are setting a false standard for this argument. Let's look at the facts

Lets look at them! As I said, not all books are marked up, so it is in the best interest of the readers to comparison shop. Some books are the same price or cheaper on Vyrso.

I am not disputing the value of L4 search/indexing, I can have pertinent
quotes, illustrations and my comments from a Kindle book searched and
indexed by Logos for FREE via one manual step that would take less time
than drinking a cup of coffee. You should try it before you tout your
way as the only or best way

I am not sure what you are talking about. You are not talking about circumventing the copy protection, are you? Is this the "quick workaround" you speak of?

If I am reading a Vyrso book on android or iPad, am I able to add notes and highlights?

Yes, you will be able to do this soon. Logos is working on "sync 2.0" which will bring highlighting and notes to the Vyrso and Logos mobile apps.

Paul N

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/288693#Comment_288693

I really want to know. How are our search results enhanced? Can you give a specific example?

With a survey resource such as Graham Cole's He Who Gives Life: The Doctrine of the Holy Spirit from Vyrso, upon performing a search like holy spirit NEAR old testament, results in 210 hits in 16 articles. I'm not sure how many fiction books I'll be purchasing, but academic resources are really helpful!

toughski

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/288714#Comment_288714

I am not disputing the value of L4 search/indexing, I can have pertinent
quotes, illustrations and my comments from a Kindle book searched and
indexed by Logos for FREE via one manual step that would take less time
than drinking a cup of coffee. You should try it before you tout your
way as the only or best way

I am not sure what you are talking about. You are not talking about circumventing the copy protection, are you? Is this the "quick workaround" you speak of?

Oh, no! I am talking about logging in to Amazon's "Your Highlights" page, copying and pasting it to Word, saving it to .docx and creating a PB. takes about two minutes. It allows Logos to index all of highlights or quotes I find pertinent as well as my notes on the text.

Matthew C Jones

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/288938#Comment_288938

Oh, no! I am talking about logging in to Amazon's "Your Highlights" page, copying and pasting it to Word, saving it to .docx and creating a PB. takes about two minutes. It allows Logos to index all of highlights or quotes I find pertinent as well as my notes on the text.

That is a creative application of the Personal Book Tool that raises more questions than it answers. Your view and my view of copyright law probably differs from the publishers Amazon serves. If Logos is served an injunction from a federal court to remove the Personal Book Tool feature pending a final decision in a copyright suit (remember Napster?) We will all be losers. I thank you for bringing up the possibility. Let's not walk out any further on that ice.

As far as Vyrso goes: Floyd is still right, "Shop" around and buy the best deal that works for you. I'm thankful we have an extra choice. (Last year we did not have Vyrso as an option.)

edit: Vladimir, I do understand exactly how you are applying this process and I have no problem with it. I'm concerned others may claim your original notes are an extension of their works. Dumber ideas have prevailed in US courts......[8-)] UPS successfully trademarked the color brown. I can't wait until UPS sues the Oklahoma Highway Patrol for wearing brown uniforms.

toughski

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/288945#Comment_288945

That is a creative application of the Personal Book Tool that raises more questions than it answers. Your view and my view of copyright law probably differs from the publishers Amazon serves. If Logos is served an injunction from a federal court to remove the Personal Book Tool feature pending a final decision in a copyright suit (remember Napster?) We will all be losers. I thank you for bringing up the possibility. Let's not walk out any further on that ice.

As far as Vyrso goes: Floyd is still right, "Shop" around and buy the best deal that works for you. I'm thankful we have an extra choice. (Last year we did not have Vyrso as an option.)

edit: Vladimir, I do understand exactly how you are applying this process and I have no problem with it. I'm concerned others may claim your original notes are an extension of their works. Dumber ideas have prevailed in US courts......

WOW! [:O]

OK, let me just show what I am talking about:

The copyright laws actually protect BOTH the consumer and creator. As far as Fair Use doctrine goes, a consumer has a right to use copyrighted materials (even if he did not purchase a book, but checked it out a local library, for example) for study, review, parody, etc., including copying and publishing direct quotes up to a certain length. Let's not be afraid of the boogey-man or afraid to exercise our right. Good laws define our freedom and responsibilities.

spitzerpl

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/288938#Comment_288938

Oh, no! I am talking about logging in to Amazon's "Your Highlights" page, copying and pasting it to Word, saving it to .docx and creating a PB. takes about two minutes. It allows Logos to index all of highlights or quotes I find pertinent as well as my notes on the text.

I see absolutely nothing wrong with this. I don't think you even begin to venture into copyright category until you share that .docx with others to integrate into their libraries. Even then, it depends on how much you are quoting.

JT (alabama24)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/288938#Comment_288938

Oh, no! I am talking about logging in to Amazon's "Your Highlights" page, copying and pasting it to Word, saving it to .docx and creating a PB. takes about two minutes. It allows Logos to index all of highlights or quotes I find pertinent as well as my notes on the text.

I had not heard of that. I will take a look. Most of my purchases will still be in Vyrso though [:)]

Let's not be afraid of the boogey-man or afraid to exercise our right. Good laws define our freedom and responsibilities.

[Y]

toughski

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/288994#Comment_288994

Actually I stand corrected: Fair Use is not a right, but a legal defense.

Matthew C Jones

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/288967#Comment_288967

As far as Fair Use doctrine goes,

Good laws define our freedom and responsibilities.

I know how the Fair Use clause reads. The problem is most people, especially "educational" institutions violate the time requirement for destroying the copies. What? [:O] You didn't know you have a very short time in which to use & then destroy the copy? Many universities bookstores & educators regularly abuse the Fair Use clause in the name of the holy cow of education. Some churches also believe they are above the law because "my kingdom is not of this world" and I don't want to pay royalties for teaching materials or sheet music.

My whole aversion to the "boogey-man" is well-founded. Napster was held accountable for what it's users were doing with files. Internet service providers are held accountable for what travels through their hardware once they have received legal notice. A couple decades ago the FBI did a sweep that closed down BBS services across the nation, including the editors of Boardwatch magazine. It all had to do with pirated software residing on their servers. When the RIAA sues, they go after the most effective target. As ebooks replace hard copies, we will see more theft & more lawsuits.

edit: Vladimir, I do understand exactly how you are applying this process and I have no problem with it.

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/288945#Comment_288945

I'm concerned others may claim your original notes are an extension of their works.

Do you have any substantiation of this fear?

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/289121#Comment_289121

The problem is most people, especially "educational" institutions violate the time requirement for destroying the copies. What? You didn't know you have a very short time in which to use & then destroy the copy? Many universities bookstores & educators regularly abuse the Fair Use clause in the name of the holy cow of education.

I find nothing in fair use rules at Stanford or Columbia to substantiate your claims either re:destroying the copy when it is personal notes or that education is a holy cow. In fact, in America cows are Angus, Hereford. Charlois ... none of which are holy.

P.S. For those who don't know - I grew up on my Dad's cattle ranch (circa 500 cows).

spitzerpl

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/289143#Comment_289143

I find nothing in fair use rules at Stanford or Columbia to substantiate your claims either re:destroying the copy when it is personal notes or that education is a holy cow. In fact, in America cows are Angus, Hereford. Charlois ... none of which are holy.

I'm no cattle rancher but so long as there is swiss cheese I'll believe there are holey Cows.

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/289145#Comment_289145

I'm no cattle rancher but so long as there is swiss cheese I'll believe there are holey Cows.

[Y][:D]

Todd Phillips

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/289121#Comment_289121

I know how the Fair Use clause reads. The problem is most people, especially "educational" institutions violate the time requirement for destroying the copies. What? You didn't know you have a very short time in which to use & then destroy the copy? Many universities bookstores & educators regularly abuse the Fair Use clause in the name of the holy cow of education.

I'm curious about this. I see no requirement for destroying copies in the fair use clause here:

http://www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap1.html#107

(Searching for "destroy" in that chapter only returns hits in the Ephemeral recordings section, and that is only for multiple copies beyond one archival copy.)

Matthew C Jones

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/289143#Comment_289143

I find nothing in fair use rules at Stanford or Columbia to substantiate your claims either re:destroying the copy when it is personal notes or that education is a holy cow.

I will double quote myself for emphasis:

edit: Vladimir, I do understand exactly how you are applying this process and I have no problem with it.

Personal notes are just fine. That is why I have no problem with Vladamir's use of the PBT that way. But the "educational use" of copyrighted matertial only allows temporary, short term use and requires destruction of all copies when that specific occasion has been concluded.

My own conscience is fine with the many court rulings that side with consumers allowing conversion of formats of material the consumer has purchased a license for. (i.e. making a backup copy of a CD or making a cassette recording of an lp record) I love it that Logos has chosen to allow us to use purchased resources on many different platforms. Not everyone else is that progressive. Just because I can scan C.S. Lewis books and make L4 Personal Books out of them does not mean it is legal. And just because I have a legal right does not mean some publisher won't sue me or some judge won't find in their favor.

Philana Crouch

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/288524#Comment_288524

I think overall you have to decide how you are going to use the books, if you are going to use them for research, get them for Logos, if you are just going to read them for fun get the Kindle edition.

Phil Gons (Logos)

I was excited to see vyrso.com offering "thousands" of Christian books. My delight was short-lived however. Although their selection in Christian ebooks may be broader (can anyone confirm that, maybe by posting Vyrso books that are not yet availble on Amazon) than Amazon's at the moment, I am amazed that Logos is charging 50% more than the same item on Amazon.

We're still evaluating where to land on pricing. However, we've just made a significant adjustment that I think you'll find much more competitive. We may not always be able to match Amazon, but I think you'll find us much closer now (and for books under $10 DLP, we'll often beat them). In some cases, the problem is that the DLP (digital list price) that the publishers provided us is higher than the one Amazon has. We're working to identify those and get them adjusted. If you notice any, feel free to report them.

What am I missing? What features would justify me paying 50% or MORE for such a commodity item? A book is a book is a book.

Here are a few thoughts on why you might choose to spend a little more on Vyrso books than you would elsewhere:

One license for all your content. IMO, this is huge. If you go with another platform, your ebook reading and your Bible study are in two separate worlds with an insurmountable chasm between them. Your ebooks will never be accessible within your Bible study world, and your Bible study materials will never be accessibile in your ebook world. Buying Vyrso ebooks means all your content is available on all Vyrso apps, Logos apps, Biblia.com, and anywhere else we decide to make it available in the future.
Tagged Bible references. It's not a knock-your-socks-off feature, but it is nice. And it's just one indication that demonstrates that we want to make the Christian ebook experience better. Other similar features may follow. It's highly unlikely the bigger players in the ebook market will ever implement Christian-specific features.
Cross-library searching. Other ebook platforms may let you search a single book at a time. With Vyrso you can search across your entire library at once.
Free upgrades? We probably aren't going to have Vyrso and Logos editions of the same books. We'll license one or the other. However, in some cases we may license a book in Vyrso format and later decide that it would be better as a Logos book. Don't quote me on this—it still needs more internal discussion—but one approach we could take in this situation is to give everyone a free upgrade to the Logos edition when we retire the Vyrso edition. So you may get the quality of a Logos book for the price of a Vyrso book.
Help make Logos better. If Vyrso is a success for us, everyone wins. We'll have the ability to invest more resources not just into Vyrso, but into making Logos Bible Software an even more amazing product.

I for one would prefer reading my Logos books (or Christian trade books) on a Kindle and not visa versa.

And you may soon be able to. Amazon is probably soon announcing their new tablet (Kindle Fire?), which will run a modified version of Android. Presumably, the Vyrso and Logos Android apps could run on the device, giving you the ability to access your library there.

JT (alabama24)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/289194#Comment_289194

Phil -

Great Post. Thanks for the update!

Free upgrades? We probably aren't going to have Vyrso and Logos editions of the same books. We'll license one or the other. However, in some cases we may license a book in Vyrso format and later decide that it would be better as a Logos book. Don't quote me on this—it still needs more internal discussion—but one approach we could take in this situation is to give everyone a free upgrade to the Logos edition when we retire the Vyrso edition. So you may get the quality of a Logos book for the price of a Vyrso book.

OK. I didn't "quote" you. [:)] However, I REALLY like this idea. Perhaps it could be considered as the "pre-pub" discount?

Kevin A. Purcell

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/289194#Comment_289194

Free upgrades? We probably aren't going to have Vyrso and Logos editions of the same books. We'll license one or the other. However, in some cases we may license a book in Vyrso format and later decide that it would be better as a Logos book. Don't quote me on this—it still needs more internal discussion—but one approach we could take in this situation is to give everyone a free upgrade to the Logos edition when we retire the Vyrso edition. So you may get the quality of a Logos book for the price of a Vyrso book.

I know this is a bit old, but I'd like to hear more about this so I'm reviving this thread.

Has a formal decision been made. If this was given as a reason to buy Vyrso books by an employee of Logos and then they choose officially to not offer this upgrade, then it might constitute a dishonest sales tactic. I understand it isn't a legal commitment since he said, "Don't quote me on this..." but people might take Phil up on this and start buying Vyrso books only to feel a little duped if the choice goes the other way.

fgh

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/393212#Comment_393212

This was discussed a couple of days ago at http://community.logos.com/forums/p/53707/392033.aspx#392033, which also has a more recent quote.

Mike Childs

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/288541#Comment_288541

I have never purchased an eBook from Amazon. Do they allow you to access the book from multiple devices? I was under the impression they do not.

Let me correct you wrong impression. Yes, they do. My Kindle books read fine on the computer, the iPad, the iPhone, and other devices as well.

Philana Crouch

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/393893#Comment_393893

One thing I appreciate with Logos/Vyrso is the ability to share or copy longer quotes. I wanted to share even a paragraph length portion from Kindle version and it gets cut off. I don't have that problem with Vyrso resources.

The Redlines

Regardless of how the prices between the two companies might sit, a quick look at the ethics of both companies should clearly set your mind at ease doing business with Logos/Vyrso and quickly cause you to swear off doing any future business with Amazon.

toughski

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/436214#Comment_436214

quick look at the ethics of both companies

common misconception - companies don't have "ethics," people do. A logical conclusion of your argument is to never do any business with a company that does anything wrong or sinful, including, but not limited to:

never use a gas station - they sell alcohol
never drive a car for that matter - all car manufacturers support ungodly causes
never be a citizen of any country - they are all unholy
etc.

if we are talking about practical reality - we are stewards. Reputation of the company is not the only consideration, price is one as well. Somewhere in the middle lies the balance...

toughski

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/288676#Comment_288676

I'm not sure I'm understanding why some users are putting such an extremely high priority (hill to die on level) on prices in Vyrso, especially in regard to Amazon.com. I value more having all of my resources "on one shelf" instead of needing two programs to access them.

look, Paul, this is your deserved, but still personal opinion, Do you prefer a one "do everything" vehicle, or do you have a minivan and another car?

if one truly had many (paper) books, they might not even have them in the same room. Most would be in the Library, some in the kitchen (cookbooks), some in the Living room (picture books), some in the garage (car manuals). Even if I have 10000 books, I guarantee you, I can remember what I have in Vyrso, what in Logos and what in Kindle. Not an issue. 4x Price would be an issue

Paul N

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/512622#Comment_512622

I'm not sure I'm understanding why some users are putting such an extremely high priority (hill to die on level) on prices in Vyrso, especially in regard to Amazon.com. I value more having all of my resources "on one shelf" instead of needing two programs to access them.

look, Paul, this is your deserved, but still personal opinion, Do you prefer a one "do everything" vehicle, or do you have a minivan and another car?

if one truly had many (paper) books, they might not even have them in the same room. Most would be in the Library, some in the kitchen (cookbooks), some in the Living room (picture books), some in the garage (car manuals). Even if I have 10000 books, I guarantee you, I can remember what I have in Vyrso, what in Logos and what in Kindle. Not an issue. 4x Price would be an issue

...and I still enjoy this nearly 2 years later! (we do own 2 vehicles because we have multiple drivers in the family... only one digital book reader) The ironic part on the link regarding Adoniram Judson is that Vyrso marked it down to 2.99 for at least a week. I took advantage of this and many of the other discounts throughout the summer. I will say I check the "Best Deals" filter on Vyrso.com regularly.

toughski

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/512834#Comment_512834

I will say I check the "Best Deals" filter on Vyrso.com regularly.

bummer, I only check the "free" filter. Seriously, this title was on sale on Vyrso?

JT (alabama24)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/512846#Comment_512846

Seriously, this title was on sale on Vyrso?

I think it was...

I only check the "free" filter

I have a couple that I use. Something is broken and they are not perfect... but here they are:

http://vyrso.com/products/search?q=price%3A%5B0+TO+7.99%5D+-title%3Asampler&unlocked=no&start=&sort=pricelo&pageSize=60

http://vyrso.com/products/search?q=price%3A%5B0+TO+7.99%5D+-title%3Asampler&unlocked=no&start=&sort=savings&pageSize=60