How long does it normally take for a book to leave "Under Development" status?
I placed my Pre-Order for Ben Witherington's "What Have They Done to Jesus" on April 21th last year - I remember it moved to "Under Development" shortly after that. It hasn't left that status yet, which is nearly nine months now.
Does is always take that long for a book like this (343 pages, not too technichal, just a few pictures etc.) to move to shipping status? I imagine the work that has to be done would take a single person a couple of hours max.
It's kind of frustrating to wait this long for a book that has been available on e.g. Kindle (where you can buy it for half the price ...) for years and which you just want to read. Given it may be useful to have it in Logos for research as well, but that's not the main reason I ordered it.
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No. The time frame is always variable from just a few days to much much longer. But this particular book does seem to be taking longer than I would expect as well.Theolobias said:Does is always take that long for a book like this (343 pages, not too technichal, just a few pictures etc.) to move to shipping status?
More than likely something has stopped/stalled progress and someone somewhere has to wait on someone else who is waiting on yet someone else to fix a series of issues that will fall like dominoes once the first one is pushed.
I'll email someone and ask him to look into it.
Edit: email sent.
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Thank you very much, Thomas! [:)] Just in case this comes up again: Would Customer Support be the right department to email to, or are there people at Logos one can write to directly in such cases?
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Theolobias said:
Thank you very much, Thomas!
Just in case this comes up again: Would Customer Support be the right department to email to, or are there people at Logos one can write to directly in such cases?Probably customer service. I emailed a specific person - with no promise it was the right person.
man am I feeling vague today.
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TCBlack said:
Probably customer service. I emailed a specific person - with no promise it was the right person.
Thanks again, Thomas!
TCBlack said:man am I feeling vague today.
Must be the weather, same with me today. Wait a minute - we're some 4500 miles apart!?! [li]
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TCBlack said:
I emailed a specific person - with no promise it was the right person.
BTW: Did you get an answer?
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TCBlack said:
man am I feeling vague today.
A post in this thread today inspired me to read it. Does that make you a "vague-an" ? [;)]
george
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George Somsel said:TCBlack said:
man am I feeling vague today.
A post in this thread today inspired me to read it. Does that make you a "vague-an" ?
Er ... Maybe? Perhaps? Possibly? ... I really can't say for sure ... [:)]
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Okay, I'm really a bit upset now. It's been a week that I've sent an email to Sales concerning this problem, and I haven't received an answer yet. Logos - you can't release dozens and dozens of new pre-pubs when you can't even manage the ones stuck in the pipe for almost a year.
Could someone from Logos finally take care of this, please?
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Theolobias said:
It's been a week that I've sent an email to Sales concerning this problem, and I haven't received an answer yet.
I don't think sales would be the right place to ask… but I don't know who to ask. [Sales has nothing to do with the release of new resources].
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alabama24 said:
but I don't know who to ask.
That's why I sent it to Sales - I figured they would delegate it to the right place ... [;)] I've sent an extra email to Customer Service just now.
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I noticed that this resource is published by HarperSanFrancisco. I then checked and there are 3 books from that publisher listed as Under Development (of 4 available).
There has been precedent for publishers holding up the shipping of resources (contract negotiations?) before. I suspect that there is something like that is going on here and Logos can't or won't comment on it.
Prov. 15:23
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alabama24 said:Theolobias said:
It's been a week that I've sent an email to Sales concerning this problem, and I haven't received an answer yet.
I don't think sales would be the right place to ask… but I don't know who to ask. [Sales has nothing to do with the release of new resources].
It would be the Electronic Text Development team who would have an answer on this. Last I knew, Jana Gering was the (or a) Project Manager there. You could add a comment on her profile to get a message to her (assuming she hasn't turned off email notifications).
They don't generally give estimated ship dates for books (EDIT: until it's less than a month away), since all kinds of factors could affect that date and disappoint us.
Theolobias said:Does is always take that long for a book like this (343 pages, not too technichal, just a few pictures etc.) to move to shipping status? I imagine the work that has to be done would take a single person a couple of hours max.
Nine months is not at all unusual. First of all, just because it moves into "Under Development" status doesn't mean they jump in and start on it right away. There could already be quite a long queue of books that are in the pipeline ahead of it, and it has to wait. Their internal priorities for what order they work on the new books are unbeknownst to us. But I know they are sometimes still rolling out things that went into "Under Development" status years ago.
Also, I think you're way under-estimating the work involved. Here are some articles from Logos that help explain the process behind bringing the books into production:
http://blog.logos.com/2010/04/etd_where_your_books_come_from/
http://www.logos.com/features/prepub
I've been working on some PB's and it has given me a whole new appreciation of the work involved. There's no way it would take a single person a couple of hours max to prepare a Logos tagged book of 343 pages. It has taken me days and days to do a single simple book of half that length, a historical biography that had no hyperlinks or Scripture references or anything else in it to complicate it other than a few pictures and numerous footnotes. Granted, I've never started with pure text that came straight from the publisher as these newer books probably would (I've started from a badly OCR'ed text that had lots of typos I had to fix). But even that doesn't save them from having to do a thorough read-through of the entire book looking for taggable items and carefully inserting the tagging codes. Even just reading it without doing anything to it would take at least a couple of days.
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The links are very informative, Rosie. Thanks.
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Thanks for clearing things up a bit, Kevin and Rosie!
I still think that having to wait for almost a year for one single resource to leave development status is quite some time, considering one could have bought it in print or as Kindle version and read it through several times. I know well enough that Logos isn't just another ebook reader, however I get frustrated when I see a ton of new Pre Pubs being published every month that are more comprehensive and have been under development for much shorter time.
I don't have to know every detail of the process, but I'd really appreciate it if Logos could at least give a hint for what's taking so long and that they are on it, especially when they have been asked for it several times.
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Theolobias said:
I get frustrated when I see a ton of new Pre Pubs being published every month that are more comprehensive and have been under development for much shorter time.
It probably means they had more orders for them. They tend to work on books first that have more people waiting for them, though there are other considerations too that we have nothing to do with and that have nothing to do with how long the technical work takes (such as negotiations with the publisher, even getting the digital files from them in the first place, haggling over price, etc.)
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Rosie Perera said:
there are other considerations too that we have nothing to do with and that have nothing to do with how long the technical work takes (such as negotiations with the publisher, even getting the digital files from them in the first place, haggling over price, etc.)
Well, I hope Logos settles these kind of things before they advertise a resource!
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Theolobias said:Rosie Perera said:
there are other considerations too that we have nothing to do with and that have nothing to do with how long the technical work takes (such as negotiations with the publisher, even getting the digital files from them in the first place, haggling over price, etc.)
Well, I hope Logos settles these kind of things before they advertise a resource!
They don't always, because sometimes having a large number of people interested in a resource gives them the motivation or the clout to go after negotiating a contract with a publisher. Why waste the energy on that if relatively few people will be interested in this book? That's part of what the pre-pub program is for -- to gauge interest.
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How long does it normally take for a book to leave "Under Development" status?
If you have the funds, too long.If you're short on cash, not long enough.
There doesn't seem to be any in-between.
[:P][;)]
Grace & Peace,
Bill
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[Y] [Y] [Y]BillS said:How long does it normally take for a book to leave "Under Development" status?
If you have the funds, too long.If you're short on cash, not long enough.
There doesn't seem to be any in-between.
The best response yet! I'll drink to that. [B]
george
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BillS said:
How long does it normally take for a book to leave "Under Development" status?
If you have the funds, too long.If you're short on cash, not long enough.
There doesn't seem to be any in-between.
BillS officially wins the prize for most accurate answer.
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BillS said:
How long does it normally take for a book to leave "Under Development" status?
If you have the funds, too long.If you're short on cash, not long enough.
There doesn't seem to be any in-between.
Well, I'm short on cash for sure, but I could really use this resource right now nonetheless ... - so, there kind of is some in-between! [;)]
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Rosie Perera said:
That's part of what the pre-pub program is for -- to gauge interest.
Well, it made it into development, so there must have been enough interest to produce it. It's not that I wouldn't appreciate the hard work behind the resources Logos produces. I really do - that's why I'm willing to pay more for it than I would for the print or Kindle edition and even wait some time. I just don't want to wait longer for a single 350 pages book than I'd have to wait for a new car after I've ordered it. I'm a bit selfish here, yes - but not ashamed ... [;)]
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I can’t go into too many details about the particulars of this book, but I can tell you about some of the factors that hold up books in general.
First, our goal is to develop books as fast as we can. Lots of Logos employees are power users and book lovers. When we hear about a new Pre-Pub project, we get excited, too—we all want it in our libraries.
For a “normal” book (which, in theory, exists… somewhere… [:D]), it usually takes us a few weeks to a couple of months, with a little extra time for QA testing. We’ve produced more than 21,000 books, so we’ve got some good systems in place.
If a book takes longer than that, it’s usually for one (or more) of the following reasons:
- Contracts and publishers. We might have an issue to resolve with the publisher. We work with more than a hundred publishers. Every year, there is consolidation, management turnover, new people for us to work with and build relationships, and so on. Even publishers we’ve worked with for years might change their strategy—pulling back from digital, or pushing ahead full steam (hint: keep an eye on the Pre-Pub page next week…).
- Text complexity. Sometimes the source materials are bad. Getting a good source is much more complex than simply OCRing a print text—especially when you consider that the kinds of books we work with are inherently pretty complex (Greek, Hebrew, footnotes, indexes, cross-references, and a hundred other things). Take a look at the 1561 translation of Calvin’s Institutes and you’ll see what I mean. [:)]
- Processing issues. Getting a good source text is just the start. We spend a lot of time going over books, tagging everything, and adding all the features that make books work to well in Logos. We work with lots of contractors and have an entire department that does an amazing job of turning texts into fully-tagged Logos books. (We don’t just do this for Pre-Pubs; we do this for all our books. Most of this work happens behind the scenes and you probably don’t notice it… here’s one of the bigger update projects we did recently: http://community.logos.com/forums/p/44241/329310.aspx.) Some of this work is automated and scripted, but at the end of the day, we have real humans working on our books (and these humans use the same books in our software—just like you).
- QA Testing. Our books go through a thorough testing process. If you see a ship date move, it’s usually because we caught something minor in the QA testing. If we catch something major, it can take awhile to go back and fix.
When you consider that we ship thousands of books every year, it’s inevitable that we’ll have a few hold-ups. But most of our books move through the Pre-Pub program pretty fast, and we’re improving our systems every day to make it even better.
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Kent Hendricks said:
(hint: keep an eye on the Pre-Pub page next week…)
waiting with baited breath [:D]
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george
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Thank you for taking the time to answer, Kent - I know your time is precious, so really: Thank you!
However, that's exactly the kind of answer I was afraid of. And as interesting as it might be to know what factors hold up books in general, this just isn't good enough for me. I already figured by myself that there are some difficulties with this book - otherwise it wouldn't be stuck in development for almost a year now, otherwise I wouldn't have asked. So this answer doesn't help me in any way.
As much as I love Logos and appreciate all the work you're doing here and as much as I try to understand to some level the complexity involved in producing a Logos resource, I don't buy these resources out ot compassion for hard working people, but because I want to do my studies with them, which involves some kind of planning. "You'll just have to wait" isn't something I can or want to build my study plans around.
In my opinion, offering a resource in PrePub is a way of advertising, which raises certain expectations on the side of the customer. In this case, Logos hasn't met my expectations at all. On the contrary! I really don't think it is asked too much expecting at least an approximate shipping date for a 350 pages book that has been advertised a year ago. As I said before, I don't want to wait longer for 350 pages of reading and studying than I have to wait for a new car or even a house to be built etc. - which involves even more contracts, complexity, processing issues and QA testing. And I certainly don't want to know that there are even more amazing PrePubs coming next week when I haven't even received the ones I've been waiting and asking for over and over again!
If Logos can't manage to deliver a single resource that has been advertised for such a long time, then Logos just has to do a better job. Until then I'll have to invest my time and money in other software or print books. Yes, I know they can't to all the exciting things Logos can. But at least I can read and do my studies with them instead of just having to wait - my time is precious, too.
I know all this may sound a bit harsh. It certainly is nothing personal, Ken - so, please, don't get me wrong! Again - thank you for taking the time to answer. It's just that I'm very disappointed in the way Logos as a company is doing business sometimes, and I think Logos has to hear it and do something about it.
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Emphasis added by me.Kent Hendricks said:Contracts and publishers. We might
have an issue to resolve with the publisher. We work with more than a
hundred publishers. Every year, there is consolidation, management
turnover, new people for us to work with and build relationships, and so
on. Even publishers we’ve worked with for years might change their
strategy—pulling back from digital, or pushing ahead full steamTheolobias said:If Logos can't manage to deliver a single resource that has been advertised for such a long time, then Logos just has to do a better job.
Theolobias, I understand your general point and frustration of not wanting to wait long for a 350 page book. How can Logos improve or do a better job on a matter outside their control, namely point one in Kent's post?
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Ted Hans said:
Theolobias, I understand your general point and frustration of not wanting to wait long for a 350 page book. How can Logos improve or do a better job on a matter outside their control, namely point one in Kent's post?
It isn't completely out of their control!
1. If Logos offers a PrePub resource, there must have been at least first talks and a first contract with the publisher, which means that the publisher generally has given Logos the permission to advertise the product and start with the production. If a publisher can stop this whole process or delay it for so long, there are two things that need to be said:
a) Logos should negotiate contracts that make it very clear to the publisher that they can't just do as they like as soon as they've given Logos the permission to advertise the product. Once you go public with a product, every party has certain expectations that need to be met - and there are three parties we're talking about here: The licence holder, Logos, and Logos' customers. If the publisher still stops the whole process, than this is either a breach of contract (which should cause Logos to demand what is rightfully theirs and be even more clear towards the publisher in future negotiations), and/or
b) there have happened some unpredictable things on the publisher's side that haven't been their fault per se but that need to be communicated, which leads me to:
2. As already said, Logos can remind the publisher that there are customers waiting for a product. Logos' business depends on customer satisfaction, so Logos can and has to at least exert a reasonable degree of pressure. And: It should be clear to both Logos and the publisher that customers demand at least a certain degree of communication and information concerning the whereabouts of a product they've ordered. Telling the customer that he or she just has to wait is neither communication nor information - it's simply stalling.
That said, I'd at least like to know whether the delay for the two titles by Ben Witherington is the publisher's fault or has something to do with internal processes (or both). If the latter applies, then there is something seriously wrong and needs to be radically changed by Logos. Seriously: In a year's time I could transcribe 350 pages ten times by hand and on top of it memorize it - I wouldn't even need Logos anymore!
I don't have or even want to know all the details, but some specifics really concern me a bit - e.g. how long it will approximately take for a resource to ship. And I'd like to be informed by Logos without having to ask all the time. When you order a product at Amazon and it is delayed for some reason, Amazon informs you about it. Logos should really do the same. I know that PrePubs don't come with a shipping date in advance because they first have to be produced before they can be shipped - but, again: We're talking about a year here, and I don't have the confidence that it won't take even longer! If Logos can't manage to give us this kind of information, they should refrain from advertising a product. It's as simple as that.
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Thanks Theolobias for responding. I now have a better perspective of your point of view & wish you all the best. Regards
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