- I, the Lord, am your God. You shall not have other gods besides me.
- You shall not take the name of the Lord God in vain
- Remember to keep holy the Lord's Day
- Honor your father and your mother
- You shall not kill
- You shall not commit adultery
- You shall not steal
- You shall not bear false witness
- You shall not covet your neighbor's wife
- You shall not covet your neighbor's goods
Sync Feature via Email & Password Activation Insecurites
Ariyl
Member Posts: 24 ✭✭
I'm sure there are many circumstances that makes Logos 4 Sync Feature / Email & Password activation disrespectful of a buyer's security. For example, many people have children and had no problems installing Logos 3 for them. Everything they did on that machine was their own problem so to speak. We simply installed the Key file or sent it to them and they were off to the races. Not so in Logos 4. Email & Password loss or misuse is much more insecure than loss of a Key file. A Key logger for example needs only to see what you typed as opposed to hacking your machine and looking for a Key file that may not even be on that machine.
So if / when a computer or an easier Email & Password is stolen or misused, one can logon to Logos.com and buy up everything if you left a credit card on file. Also, does everyone have children or family they fully trust to NEVER find a reason to misuse your personal account Email & Password that activates Logos 4? So you may also easily lose years of work / markup settings for any unwanted install or misuse of your account info due to the online Sync Feature. I'm pretty sure I know the underlying reason why they "sold" this thought of installing Logos 4 on all of ones computers with a sync feature. I'll leave that for my in-depth blogs. Anyways, how is that share friendly when one can no longer install Logos 4 for his own child, because your own settings will be manipulated? Am I being manipulated / forced to spend thousands of dollars for my children to secure my own primary machine from being manipulated in what is supposed to be a share friendly / secure Sync Feature? Or maybe my CHILDREN are being forced to spend the thousands. Hmm...
Proposed Fix:
1. Disable Email & Password activation (I've read this is possible now but with hassles).
2. Have option to ALLOW sync feature across designated computers via separate shared User Name / Password(s)
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Comments
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The EULA (software license agreement) says you can put it on as many computers as you use personally, not your kids, and in reality, not even your wife, and definitely not your friends. So your post actually admits to breaking the EULA for 3, and asks Logos to change the password activation to make it easier for you to break the EULA for 4.
No you cannot share the program to your kids just because you bought it. You can't do it for any program you pay for - windows, games, music you buy.
You are being forced to spend money for your children to have their own copy, that is true, that is the way software sales work.
I think you better rethink your post, your admitting to breaking the law.
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So I got this by e-mail update on this thread, but then when I came to the thread it was already gone.(I deleted the sender)
Michael Birney: your admitting to breaking the law.
poster - Which law exactly.....?
Well, of the 10 commandments it would be 8, "You shall not steal."
Not sure where you live, but in the US, it would be called stealing, and when you are caught doing it to say microsoft, even if it was by mistake, they try and take a lot of your money from you.
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Regarding installing for wife and family, please see Bob's opinion at http://community.logos.com/forums/p/341/3265.aspx#3265
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Michael,
that was me... I thought that you'd come on a bit strong and then I re-read the first post and realised that you were spot on and so I deleted my post.
The ability to quickly delete posts is a blessing as is the ability to edit them.
Given that I had deleted my post there was no need to reply to it....
(I really don't need to have the 10 commandments quoted to me - but, for your information, for Catholics and Lutherans, the commandment to not steal is no. 7)
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Michael Birney said:
You can't do it for any program you pay for - windows, games, music you buy.
Actually untrue. Microsoft's EULA is typically per machine and they even advertise Mom, Dad, the kids, etc. all having their own accounts on the one machine and being able to save their individual settings. There is something about only one person using the software at a time, but I'm not sure how that all works out in the nitty gritty. Bottom line is that they don't want their software installed on more than one machine unless the proper number of licenses have been purchased for it.
Also, as regards music, if that were true, then I wouldn't be able to let my kids listen to any of the CDs I've purchased over the years.
I'm merely correcting this because I don't want anyone to be misinformed and therefore worrying about being a thief needlessly.
Matt
Specs:
Windows 7 x64
Quad Xeon 2.83 GHz x2
16GB RAM
Nvidia 285 GTX 1GB VRAM
Logos 4.1 Platinum, SR-3, indexed0 -
Damian McGrath said:
(I really don't need to have the 10 commandments quoted to me - but, for your information, for Catholics and Lutherans, the commandment to not steal is no. 7)
Warning: Totally Off-Topic Post. But I just have to ask:
Damian,
Can you please enlighten me on what the 10 commandments are for Lutherans & Catholics. You can leave a "private message" on my forum profile page. Maybe you can direct me to a Logos resource or Vatican website. My interest is piqued. I will begin my quest
In all sincerity, Matthew
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Damian,
You are right, both times. I came on too strong, and then lectured you as I responded to your deleted post. It was stupid of me, I apologize.
Commandment 7? Really? Are 2 of them combined, or moved around or? I'm really asking, please don't read this any other way. Exodus 20 is where I found the list below (I'm guessing you know that, I had to look it up). Again, given my previous post, I want to make sure you understand, I am really asking, not being a jerk.
1 - 3 “You shall have no other gods before me.
2. 4 “You shall not make for yourself a carved image, ....
3. 7 “You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain, for the Lord will not hold him guiltless who takes his name in vain.
4. 8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.
5. 12“Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long in the land that the Lord your God is giving you.
6 13 “You shall not murder.
7 14 “You shall not commit adultery.
8. 15“You shall not steal.
9. 16“You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
10. 17“You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife,
The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (Ex 20:3-17). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.
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Matt said:
Bottom line is that they don't want their software installed on more than one machine unless the proper number of licenses have been purchased for it.
Also, as regards music, if that were true, then I wouldn't be able to let my kids listen to any of the CDs I've purchased over the years.
The original post sounds like adult children are using a duplicate installation of ONE Logos license to avoid paying for their own. This is theft. No wonder the posting parent has concerns. If my kids were willing to use stolen software they might also misuse my credit card information. [:O]
Applying this same conduct to music would be like making copies of your CD collection and giving those copies to you family and friends so they can avoid purchasing their own, the whole time retaining the original so the artist loses a sale for every copy you made. Theft again.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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As I said above, I was too strong I apologize.
The point I was trying to make with windows was you put it on one computer, you can't then send the program to your kids to use on theirs. When you download a song from ITunes, you can't then send it to your kids to use on their computers (although the newer network sharing allows for limited ability to do this).
Sorry for being harsh in my posts.
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Michael,
No worries....
Michael and Matthew
I posted this on Matthew's user page:
Info can be found on wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_Commandments#Catholic_and_Lutheran_Christianity
The Catholic Catechism on the commandments here: http://www.christusrex.org/www1/CDHN/decalog.html
It's all based on Augustine...
Abbreviated Catholic Ten Commandments:
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Thank you very much Damian! Years ago I had a very vague encounter with this difference but had nobody to inquire of. I will read upon this. [*]
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Ariyl said:
Proposed Fix:
1. Disable Email & Password activation (I've read this is possible now but with hassles).
It is no hassle to force someone to work offline by NOT suppling the sign-in details. They just have to start L4 holding the Ctrl key. If there is no internet connection it will work off-line automatically. You can update off-line via occasional install DVD's or more regularly (a slight "hassle"), but this will avoid the sync issue.
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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There was also a Bible Study Magazine article that covered the divisions of the Ten Commandments: http://www.biblestudymagazine.com/interactive/commandments/
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Bradley Grainger said:
There was also a Bible Study Magazine article that covered the divisions of the Ten Commandments: http://www.biblestudymagazine.com/interactive/commandments
Come on Bradley, you've got to use the marketing tools that we give you! Come on man, pretty pictures!
[:D]
Counting the Ten Commandments -- at BibleStudyMagazine.com
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Dan Pritchett said:
Come on man, pretty pictures!
he was probably thinking that is what his Avatar is for.
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Philip Spitzer said:Dan Pritchett said:
Come on man, pretty pictures!
he was probably thinking that is what his Avatar is for.
Phil!!!! Right now you can't talk about pretty Avatars!!
You'll probably put one up to make this post look ridiculous!!!
Chris
[:)]
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I think the original poster brings up a good point though. I have four children all under the age of 12 who are all being homeschooled. I had assumed that it would be no problem to let my oldest learn and use the software, just as I am letting him use and learn Mathematica, Britannica, Encarta, Rosetta Stone, OED, Office, etc. Even my six year old would enjoy being on the computer to use the software. In fact, the whole family is excited about it.
If I got the tone of Bob Pritchett's post right, and I have not simply morphed it for my own sinful profit, I don't think he would have a problem with my children accessing and using the software. However, if I am not a thief in doing so, because I need to sign in coupled with the fact that the software installs in the UserData\Local ?! folder, I run the risk of having my child ruin any settings, notes, etc, I have potentially spent many, many hours putting together.
Hmm, I just logged in under one of my children's accounts, and because Logos 4 is installed in the AppData for a given user as opposed to 'Program Files' where every other piece of software has been installed, the program cannot be accessed by my children, so Logos has essentially made this impossible with their installation scheme. This seems rather draconian. If I'm still within the Logos EULA as adumbrated by Bob Pritchett, I guess I could create a 'universal' account that all of us would need to use whenever we wanted to access Logos 4, but this is hardly tenable because now, in order to access the software, one would have to leave behind all of their current software that is up and running (where each program is tailored to the user's needs by virtue of the non-shared settings of each user account), in order to access Logos 4. i.e. I often come across people, places and things with which I am either unfamiliar or want more information on, and I usually have Encarta, Britannica, the Merriam Webster's dictionary, and the OED open so I can due some side research, and I've taught my children to do the same. It's certainly nice to be able to flip between these various resources.
It appears that even if I weren't violating the spirit of the EULA, Logos 4 has made it impossible for me to let my homeschooled children use the software because of their installation practice. I can't purchase each of them their own Logos Platinum due to the prohibitive cost (although, to be honest, I figured I'd use it like every other piece of software that my children can currently use with no EULA violation or technical problems whatsoever). Even though it would be a stretch, I guess I could purchase each of them their own Bible Study Library. As we share one computer with different login accounts, can I install Logos Platinum, Logos Bible Study Library, and another copy of Logos Bible Study Library together on one machine and have all the settings remain separate and unmolested to avoid the problem the poster was referring to in terms of corruption? It does look as though for at least some part of the install/uninstall, the installer and/or software proper access the HKLM node of the registry which is shared amongst all users. If that is so, it looks as though in order to have my children to be able to use Logos 4 with their own settings/preferences, I would need to have a separate computer for each one with each having their own licensed copy of Logos 4. In one sense, this makes Microsoft's EULA look like a fun time at the park. I am hoping this was simply an oversight and is all part of the launch pains of Logos 4.
Matt
Specs:
Windows 7 x64
Quad Xeon 2.83 GHz x2
16GB RAM
Nvidia 285 GTX 1GB VRAM
Logos 4.1 Platinum, SR-3, indexed0 -
Chris Elford said:
Phil!!!! Right now you can't talk about pretty Avatars!!
What you don't like puppies?
I don't mean this to be harsh but regarding the original post, if I go to the home page and click on my email address it takes me to a login screen. It doesn't automatically log me in. If I don't know the my password I can't access my account or post to a forum. Considering that most online stores use an email address we provide for identification I don't feel that this is an issue. After all, spammers have no problem finding our email addresses. The convenience of downloading resources when I need to reinstall is worth it to me, just like the convenience of being able to buy things over the internet. Some of the other forums mentioned an option to install Logos completely offline for people with slow of no internet access if this is a real concern.
If you have children old enough to use Logos accessing your computer then you have more things to worry about than Logos using your email address to identify you. I've cleaned up a number of computers for people after their teenagers downloaded malware. Not to mention that if they are sharing music you may recieve a letter from the RIAA.
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Matt said:
I had assumed that it would be no problem to let my oldest learn and use the software, just as I am letting him use and learn Mathematica, Britannica, Encarta, Rosetta Stone, OED, Office, etc. Even my six year old would enjoy being on the computer to use the software. In fact, the whole family is excited about it.
I think it is great that your children are interested in using logos. EULAs seem to differ quite a bit. Norton seems to sell several licenses at once with some software, our church software is "site-wide" and has no restrictions on how many computers or users there may be. I doubt that many of us would think that showing our children things on Logos and letting them have a go at using it would cause any actual legal action. [:D] But none of us wish to steal either.
So my question is; is Matt correct in his understanding of the restrictions on the use of Logos4 within a family?
Eddie
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just followed links to other posts on this topic and I think my question is answered.
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WARNING: still totally off-topic from the dismaying original post. [:$]
OK. As usual, Dan the Man is right on the money. Pretty pictures do sell.Dan Pritchett said:Come on Bradley, you've got to use the marketing tools that we give you! Come on man, pretty pictures!
Counting the Ten Commandments -- at BibleStudyMagazine.com
I subscribed to BSM the first year and enjoyed much (but not all) of the articles. I thought I had read each issue front to back. When I did not renew my subscription I was surprised to see the Nov/Dec issue arrive. Now that Bradley has directed me to the very interesting article I missed, I see that I really ought to re-subscribe. [And Thanks Damian for the links & education.]
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Matt said:
I think the original poster brings up a good point though. I have four children all under the age of 12 who are all being homeschooled. I had assumed that it would be no problem to let my oldest learn and use the software, just as I am letting him use and learn Mathematica, Britannica, Encarta, Rosetta Stone, OED, Office, etc. Even my six year old would enjoy being on the computer to use the software. In fact, the whole family is excited about it.
If I got the tone of Bob Pritchett's post right, and I have not simply morphed it for my own sinful profit, I don't think he would have a problem with my children accessing and using the software. However, if I am not a thief in doing so, because I need to sign in coupled with the fact that the software installs in the UserData\Local ?! folder, I run the risk of having my child ruin any settings, notes, etc, I have potentially spent many, many hours putting together.
Matt,
You have made me see the original poster's concern more clearly. I guard my computer diligently because in the past my young 'uns have caused it much damage and loss of data. I even have cracker crumbs inside my laptop keyboard causing many typos. IF that is what the original poster was talking about, I apologize for, once again, over-reacting. BobP has made it clear how HE feels the EULA should be applied. The one thing it clearly forbids is a bunch of adults with individual computers having simultaneously availble installations of Logos running. Hopefully the original post is about little children living at home....
Would it be a bad idea to maintain a second laptop with Version 3 (which can easily be backed up & restored) available for the kiddos? That would insulate the notes & online backups involved in Version 4 from possible demise. When Gregg Harris taught the Homeschooling Workshop he suggested treating junk mail with the reverence we treat fine books. Our children would learn to properly respect our Logos 4 computer if we taught them to respect the Version 3 install.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Matthew C Jones said:
Would it be a bad idea to maintain a second laptop with Version 3 (which can easily be backed up & restored) available for the kiddos? That would insulate the notes & online backups involved in Version 4 from possible demise.
That is a good way to prevent accidental loss.
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Matthew C Jones said:
Would it be a bad idea to maintain a second laptop with Version 3 (which can easily be backed up & restored) available for the kiddos? That would insulate the notes & online backups involved in Version 4 from possible demise. When Gregg Harris taught the Homeschooling Workshop he suggested treating junk mail with the reverence we treat fine books. Our children would learn to properly respect our Logos 4 computer if we taught them to respect the Version 3 install.
Thanks for your thoughtful reply! Hmm, I don't have a second computer in the home. Even if I did, then that would mean just in order to be able to use Logos, I would need to install all of the apps onto another computer, which would violate the EULA of most of the software that is currently working fine and legally on my current single computer! It seems that the single/dual *computer* model which (I believe) existed for Logos 3, was much better (not to mention it was installed where it's supposed to be, i.e. 'Program Files'). Even Adobe has more relaxed restrictions than Logos 4 does (and that's saying something!). A wonderful solution would be to:
1) Install the software in the directory intended for a software installation, namely "Program Files"
2) Store individual user's settings in the individual's AppData (with WinXP and earlier it's a different location) folder, thereby maintaining user settings integrity. It's still amazing software, but I think the existing paradigm followed by the major software vendors is much more friendly to a family sharing a computer. Maybe for one user (i.e. a user designated as the 'Administrator') the settings could be synchronized, and for everybody else, their settings would simply be stored locally. If necessary, I'd be more than willing to forego the sychronization option so I could have the software function as most other software does.
As an experiment, I just utlized the 'Switch User' functionality within Windows 7 (also exists in Vista) to log on with two other accounts simultaneously with my current logon. Within each, I was able to start Photoshop CS4 and have each instance load a different workspace and file. The other accounts were not members of the Administrator's group on the computer. Although all 3 users would not be able to use their running instances simultaneously, it does demonstrate that even for very heavily pirated software such as Adobe Photoshop CS4, multiple users (on a single machine) can utlize the software alongside other users with each having their own 'sandbox' to play in. I also did the same experiment with Britannica with no problems. This is the way software is supposed to function! But again, if this is the way Logos wants to do it, then that's their prerogative, although it has definitely chosen a road that is inimical to end users with a family.
Matt
Specs:
Windows 7 x64
Quad Xeon 2.83 GHz x2
16GB RAM
Nvidia 285 GTX 1GB VRAM
Logos 4.1 Platinum, SR-3, indexed0 -
Sir, you sound like an Adversary to Biblical truth or one who does not have a clue about it nor lives by it. What a shame you take a standard EULA to an extreme and disrespect the fact that the Savior taught in Scripture: LET the children also come to me. Children weren't charged Tithes or Fees to enter the gates etc in order to hear and learn the Word of Yahweh. Adults were. So the children were FREE FROM / LET / ALLOWED. Yet it sounds like you would have rebelled and sat at the gates and CHARGED children against what the Savior taught, because "Rome or whatever has a "law" that says such and such". Whatever law man makes is their problem. I believe in the Laws in the Scriptures as is taught. I don't need replies from people who disrespect Scriptural Laws over man's perverted "laws" First learn to love the teaching of Scripture over man's money making ventures. There is nothing to rethink. I don't think Logos is that stupid to disrespect Scriptural truth for money.
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George Allakhverdyan said:Matthew C Jones said:
Would it be a bad idea to maintain a second laptop with Version 3 (which can easily be backed up & restored) available for the kiddos? That would insulate the notes & online backups involved in Version 4 from possible demise.
That is a good way to prevent accidental loss.
That "sounds" like a good idea, except my conscience would not at all be at ease knowing I've given my children second rated learning material or tools etc, while I enjoy the best. I live to give my children a BETTER or at least EQUAL opportunity than what I have or had growing up. Sorry, but I would want no one to convict me of that.
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Matt said:Matthew C Jones said:
As an experiment, I just utlized the 'Switch User' functionality within Windows 7 (also exists in Vista) to log on with two other accounts simultaneously with my current logon. Within each, I was able to start Photoshop CS4 and have each instance load a different workspace and file. The other accounts were not members of the Administrator's group on the computer. Although all 3 users would not be able to use their running instances simultaneously, it does demonstrate that even for very heavily pirated software such as Adobe Photoshop CS4, multiple users (on a single machine) can utlize the software alongside other users with each having their own 'sandbox' to play in. I also did the same experiment with Britannica with no problems. This is the way software is supposed to function! But again, if this is the way Logos wants to do it, then that's their prerogative, although it has definitely chosen a road that is inimical to end users with a family.
Matt
I really don't think Adobe has placed theft as a primary focus in designing their software, since it is futile and would cause many problems to the consumer if trying to implement obtrusive ways to combat it. For that reason, I do believe they are respectfully conscious of such circumstances as I've mentioned. None of the dozens of software titles I have prevent equal or unbound use as this new L4. Even my PS3 allows my games to be downloaded on FIVE different machines (which by the way is allowed in their personalized EULA). (by the way, they don't forcefully police that number - obviously there are people with more than 4 children) So I don't have to pay three more times for 99% of their PS3 titles for my children. PRAISE YAHWEH, they actually give a flip about the CHILDREN (despite what some grown fool might do). And my children don't have to have my email and password info to my PS3 account. The games can also be played online simultaneously as well. This works perfectly, since my youngest son doesn't live with me. Companies are not that stupid. Again, it is a shame that Logos 4 has now locked the CHILDREN out from having seperate, unbound use. I can't even install it on their machine, since it will affect everything I do. The only software I can think of that would forcibly prevent such simultaneous, unbound use as this L4 is a Microsoft OS. But there is obviously some logic to that. If there are any others, they are rare. And quite frankly, I would hate to invest in such a thoughtless company. Because they are acting ls if we can take this software with us to heaven forever after we die. And snce our lives are like the wind and sofware is also, it seems to be nothing short of blasphemous to also put obtrusive restrictions on its use against all who are not even promised tomorrow, for the sake of trying to preserve a dollar. Over 3 years, I've spent nearly 10 thousand dollars on this software. I cannot afford to pay this 3 times over, so my children can hear and learn the Word of Yahweh freely!
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Matt said:Matthew C Jones said:
Thanks for your thoughtful reply! Hmm, I don't have a second computer in the home. Even if I did, then that would mean just in order to be able to use Logos, I would need to install all of the apps onto another computer, which would violate the EULA of most of the software that is currently working fine and legally on my current single computer! It seems that the single/dual *computer* model which (I believe) existed for Logos 3, was much better (not to mention it was installed where it's supposed to be, i.e. 'Program Files'). Even Adobe has more relaxed restrictions than Logos 4 does (and that's saying something!). A wonderful solution would be to:
Matt
Installing Logos 4 on multiple computers does NOT violate the EULA. It is encraged and promoted due to its SYNC feature. They've even expanded it to iPods/iPhones. I suppose when a scenario such as having one of your computers stolen or accessed and all of your life's settings, markups, notes etc are INSTANTLY ruined, then maybe everyone will understand all my concerns more fully. I would think that people would be thankful for bringing it to their attention and sparing them the loss of what could be YEARS of work. There is a simple fix: Add serparate User Name / Passwords for the Sync feature. This will also give the master Password Account holder the ability to delete or deactivate any User Name or Sync ability in case of theft or unwanted use etc. Kind of how the iTunes Home Sharing Network feature works. They now encourage network FILE SHARING for up to 5 Users (except they don't remotely store the files for you like L4).
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[:S]
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Now, I might be getting somewhere. But initally, the Email/Password Account info must be entered in order to initially install the resources, right? From what I understand, it must connect to Logos servers to sync licensest? So how do you FORCE someone to remember to disable L4 from getting online with that command after the fact? Once L4 is initally installed and licences are synced, the Email/Password is stored, so it has free access to Sync everytime it runs (unless one FORCES another to remember that command when starting L4?). Even still, there is the problem with theft. Someone can still damage years of work. But do explain further if I've missed something concerning the activation.
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Ariyl said:
Sir, you sound like an Adversary to Biblical truth or one who does not have a clue about it nor lives by it. What a shame you take a standard EULA to an extreme and disrespect the fact that the Savior taught in Scripture: LET the children also come to me. Children weren't charged Tithes or Fees to enter the gates etc in order to hear and learn the Word of Yahweh. Adults were. So the children were FREE FROM / LET / ALLOWED. Yet it sounds like you would have rebelled and sat at the gates and CHARGED children against what the Savior taught, because "Rome or whatever has a "law" that says such and such". Whatever law man makes is their problem. I believe in the Laws in the Scriptures as is taught. I don't need replies from people who disrespect Scriptural Laws over man's perverted "laws" First learn to love the teaching of Scripture over man's money making ventures. There is nothing to rethink. I don't think Logos is that stupid to disrespect Scriptural truth for money.
You aren't serious, are you?
If you ever go into a Christian bookstore and hand your child a Bible off the shelf and, using this same argument, try to walk out of the store without paying, let me know. I want to watch what happens. Your argument doesn't hold up.
I'm glad you love your children and want them to get a full grasp of the Truth found in the Scriptures. But there's no reason to attack a brother in the Lord like this, comparing him to an "Adversary" (your capital), suggesting 'the adversary' namely Satan. That, brother, is also disrespecting the teaching of Scripture (Ephesians 4:29-32, e.g.).
The Logos EULA, which you had to agree to when you installed the software, specifically states that you may have it for one user. Bob, in a statement he made here (see discussion cited by Bradly above) says that he doesn't mind if spouses and young children share a copy, under the right circumstances. And in fact, what you're asking about probably fits within those guidelines.
As for what it is you're wanting. I think you need to understand that if you're using software in a way other than it was intended, you're going to have problems. Sometimes these are big, sometimes they're small.
EDIT: I reread your original post. You speak of 'sending' keys and such via email. If you are sending these to adult children outside your home, you are in violation of the EULA, no matter how loosely it may be construed.
Help links: WIKI; Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)
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MikeWaterhouse said:Chris Elford said:
Phil!!!! Right now you can't talk about pretty Avatars!!
What you don't like puppies?
I don't mean this to be harsh but regarding the original post, if I go to the home page and click on my email address it takes me to a login screen. It doesn't automatically log me in. If I don't know the my password I can't access my account or post to a forum. Considering that most online stores use an email address we provide for identification I don't feel that this is an issue. After all, spammers have no problem finding our email addresses. The convenience of downloading resources when I need to reinstall is worth it to me, just like the convenience of being able to buy things over the internet. Some of the other forums mentioned an option to install Logos completely offline for people with slow of no internet access if this is a real concern.
Concerning the Email/Password activation threat itself, this concerns unwanted use or theft. One problem is that this Email/Password is the SAME to logon to your Logos Account. A Keylogger can get this fairly easily. Unlike a Keylogger getting the traditional Serial Number or Key File, they can't LOGIN TO YOUR ONLIINE ACCOUNT WITH THEM. People have Credit Card info stored there! Hello! They can also change your Account Info and Password etc. Better yet, maybe they would want to send Tom, Dick and Harry a copy of Logos 4 ON YOU. And even with disgruntled or any potential mischievous former employee who had easy access to a persons Email & Password, one will always have to worry about having settings and lifelong work destroyed at will.
You can restore money stolen with this info, but sadly you CANNOT reverse the way L4 settings etc can easily be manipulated and destroyed with this info.
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Matt said:
As an experiment, I just utlized the 'Switch User' functionality within Windows 7 (also exists in Vista) to log on with two other accounts simultaneously with my current logon.
Matt, You make some good points about how Logos 4 gets installed differently than other software. I don't think they did that accidentally.
Your experiment with Windows 7 gave me an idea. How about running virtual machines for the children under W7. You can still have just one machine but isolate their installations from synching by blocking that VM from internet access. Is that feasible?
Back in the 90's I programmed for PCs & Macs. I was also hardware certified so I have mountains of stuff sitting around. I forget other people don't allow that level of computer clutter in their lives. (Eleven computers in this immediate room. Another laptop LCD was broken in the living room this morning. etc.) Unfortunately I am always installing software, re-formatting drives or something.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Richard DeRuiter said:
If you ever go into a Christian bookstore and hand your child a Bible off the shelf and, using this same argument, try to walk out of the store without paying, let me know. I want to watch what happens. Your argument doesn't hold up.
No, but the whole DRM thing is slipperier than that. I can go to a bookstore accompanied by my child, pick out and pay for a Bible and leave. When I am standing outside the store, I fully expect to be able to hand my child that Bible without the store manager coming out and accusing me of wrongdoing.
Similarly, I also have a largish print library in my house. My children have access to and the right to use any of those books. However, the concept of one-book-one license-one user cuts right across that normal practice.
I don't advocate violating the EULA, and Bob's postings on this seem to allow some freedom of conscience for occasional family use. Many things such as movies, CDs, books, etc. are legitimately bought for family use. I believe that in the long term, the push for stricter per-user licensing, even in the family setting is going to create a backlash.
[edit] re: backlash; I was referring to this in the context of any digital content, not just Logos. Just wanted to make that clear.
my $.02
Larry
AKA WillyBurger
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Richard DeRuiter said:Ariyl said:
You aren't serious, are you?
If you ever go into a Christian bookstore and hand your child a Bible off the shelf and, using this same argument, try to walk out of the store without paying, let me know. I want to watch what happens. Your argument doesn't hold up.
Sir, you err in your analagy. You are comparing a literal TAKING of two tangible objects from OUT OF a store (OUT OF another's POSSESSION). I'm talking about the USE OF what I have bought and now have IN MY OWN POSSESSION. We are talking about the Lawful USE OF a software and not the acquiring OWNERSHIP of a separate tangible object. You not only hastily jumped in this, but your "analogy" calls me a thief. Children weren't ALLOWED to enter the Temple freely to TAKE/STEAL any tangible thing OUT OF it. But they benefitted freely from its USE. But never mind trying to comprehend that point. Hopefully you will see the other dangerous and underlying problems before you pay dearly down the road with this software.
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Matthew C Jones said:
Your experiment with Windows 7 gave me an idea. How about running virtual machines for the children under W7. You can still have just one machine but isolate their installations from synching by blocking that VM from internet access. Is that feasible?
Matthew, thanks for your very thoughtful suggestion! Here's the conundrum, and I'm not simply attempting to be obstreperous here:
On my current machine, I have various software installed, that allows anybody who logs onto my machine to use it with the wonderful benefit that any per-user settings are unique (and perhaps more important, isolated from trampling one another). This means that my non-administrator wife and children can use (e.g. Encarta, Britannica, Merriam Webster's Unabridged, the OED, etc.) to their hearts content without any worries or problems and it's all legal per the various vendor's EULAs. If I were to install virtual machines for each person this would introduce the following problems:
- My wife wouldn't 'get' a virtual machine, and all sorts of problems would ensue
- In order for them to use the software they currently use one of two things would need to happen
- I install all of the software they currently use into each of their VMs (I could duplicate the virtual hard drives, mess around with the computer SID, etc., but this would be a major pain!) which would mean I would now be violating the EULA of the software I am currently in accord with, or I could shell out x 1000's of dollars to repurchase all of these licenses so I could be legit. As I'm sure you're aware, the performance of VMs (especially as regards video rendering) is fairly paltry
- I just install Logos 4 in the VMs (using virtual hard drive duplication and computer SID normalization, etc.) with the result that they would be need to be operating in two different operating systems (e.g. I just came across the word 'hendiadys' today. Between the OED and the MW, I was able to get a good grasp of the meaning and etymology, that I couldn't get just from Logos 4.) I work with VMs all day long, so other than the performance impact, it would be doable, but hardly ideal, and I think this unnecessarily complicate the computing and learning experience for my wife and kids.
All of this because Logos decided to install their program files into the user's AppData folder, a practice which I have never witnessed (nor had I witnessed it when 'Documents and Settings\Application Data' ruled the roost). I'm not attempting to be unfair to the engineers at Logos, because from what I've witnessed in their software and their developer blogs, they have some very good people. However, 'getting around security' issues is not a valid reason to break such a well-established paradigm and it almost makes me wonder if they had a non-Windows archictect in charge of their installer.
Matt
Specs:
Windows 7 x64
Quad Xeon 2.83 GHz x2
16GB RAM
Nvidia 285 GTX 1GB VRAM
Logos 4.1 Platinum, SR-3, indexed0 -
Matthew C Jones said:
The original post sounds like adult children are using a duplicate installation of ONE Logos license to avoid paying for their own. This is theft. No wonder the posting parent has concerns. If my kids were willing to use stolen software they might also misuse my credit card information.
Applying this same conduct to music would be like making copies of your CD collection and giving those copies to you family and friends so they can avoid purchasing their own, the whole time retaining the original so the artist loses a sale for every copy you made. Theft again.
How did you come to the conclusin that I have adult children? Please explain your logic to us all why you would go there. For your information, I have two minor children and one that barely made adulthood. Let's not make assumptiions that may cause one to be swayed or not grasp the concern. The concern is for those with children and without, since there is also a theft issue. You should read everything carefully.
Sir, iTunes promotes HOME FILE SHARING. Have you ever heard of the gift of SHARING? Are you a captialist? Has it ever dawned on you that the Devil hates the concept of shariing with your family, because it promotes unity and eases oppression? Its called BRAINWASHING one to think Stealing and Sharing are synonymous. Most EULA are wirtten due to what others (government, persons, vendors, companies etc) that are being dealt with want. One man did not write L4, nor owns all the L4's Books. Many others holding various licenses are involved. It's like making a deal with the Devil. The Devil is greedy for money, but your focus is getting the Word of Yahweh out by any means.You are not going to hear a company publicly tell you they permit what is not in their EULA. They would lose contracts, money, and that ultimate opportunity to get their production out. It is a compromised EULA. It is not the last word. We should all know Who has the last word, so read on and understand what the Last Word is in Truth. Stand up for your true rights and children.
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Ariyl said:
You not only hastily jumped in this, but your "analogy" calls me a thief.
My analogy was directed at your argument not at you.
Ariyl said:But never mind trying to comprehend that point.
I'm trying to comprehend your arguments but they just don't make sense to me, or else they just don't apply to the subject at hand.
Help links: WIKI; Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)
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Larry Schmid said:
No, but the whole DRM thing is slipperier than that. I can go to a bookstore accompanied by my child, pick out and pay for a Bible and leave. When I am standing outside the store, I fully expect to be able to hand my child that Bible without the store manager coming out and accusing me of wrongdoing.
Similarly, I also have a largish print library in my house. My children have access to and the right to use any of those books. However, the concept of one-book-one license-one user cuts right across that normal practice.
I don't advocate violating the EULA, and Bob's postings on this seem to allow some freedom of conscience for occasional family use. Many things such as movies, CDs, books, etc. are legitimately bought for family use. I believe that in the long term, the push for stricter per-user licensing, even in the family setting is going to create a backlash.
The difference is you bought multiple Bibles but only one Logos license. I re-read the original post and I am disturbed by this statement:
"For example, many people have children and had no problems installing Logos 3 for them. Everything they did on that machine was their own problem so to speak. We simply installed the Key file or sent it to them and they were off to the races. "
"installed the key or SENT it to them..!!??"
Are these minor children living in a different residence? This is exactly what Bob was talking about. I have 13 kids. Five of them are adults. It would be stealing for me to claim my Logos license covers my five grown children, their spouses & babies. (We can't "get saved" for our grown children either.)
EDIT: original poster just clarified these are minor children. I recomend a ceasing of further discourse since there is a problem accurately stating our points.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Matthew C Jones said:
The difference is you bought multiple Bibles but only one Logos license. I re-read the original post and I am disturbed by this statement:
"For example, many people have children and had no problems installing Logos 3 for them. Everything they did on that machine was their own problem so to speak. We simply installed the Key file or sent it to them and they were off to the races. "
"installed the key or SENT it to them..!!??"
Are these minor children are living in a different residence? This is exactly what Bob was talking about. I have 13 kids. Five of them are adults. It would be stealing for me to claim my Logos license covers my five grown children, their spouses & babies. (We can't "get saved" for our grown children either.)
I fully agree. That's not what I'm talking about (and I wasn't directly addressing the original subject).
My minor children under my roof can use the books in my print library, even though I bought them. Print books by their nature generally only allow one user at a time, unless we are reading something together. Likewise with movies and CDs. Copying is not considered legitimate sharing; neither is sending someone else your licenses for their use.
If I had adult children living away from home, I would expect them to buy their own copies of CDs, movies, etc. Now, here is where it gets sticky. I could legally send one of those grown children a CD that I own, but the trend in DRM is pushing toward non-transferable per-user licenses. Admittedly, digital media makes theft of materials much easier but that is not a valid reason to undermine personal property rights of the end user.
Larry
AKA WillyBurger
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Richard DeRuiter said:Ariyl said:
EDIT: I reread your original post. You speak of 'sending' keys and such via email. If you are sending these to adult children outside your home, you are in violation of the EULA, no matter how loosely it may be construed.
Richard, just what is your point with these irrelevant assumptions? You do a lot of ASSUMING don't you? What exactly is your motive with these assumptions? Can your mind comprehend the circumstances of many people having minor children that don't live with them and thus have the need to email them info for various reasons? Can you grasp the problem of having minor children who could no longer use this software without the risks that are being spoken of here? If you can grasp how one's child cannot use this software without said risks, why in the world are you throwing these outlandish and irrelevant assumptions in here?! Because not once have you spoken up for the children in this predicament. So I now question your motives here. TRY TO FOCUS ON THAT instead of irrelevant assumptions. So your trying to tell me about an EULA because of your remark needs no reply. I'm pretty aware of what Logos any many others use as a standard EULA. But you NEED to understand this: I DON'T LIVE BY MAN'S WORDS, I LIVE BY THE WORDS OF YAHWEH That is, man's words, traditions etc don't rule my moral actions. I'm not a brainwashed slave of Rome.
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Matt said:
My wife wouldn't 'get' a virtual machine, and all sorts of problems would ensue
That reason alone is good enough to abandon this solution. [:)]
Matt said:However, 'getting around security' issues is not a valid reason to break such a well-established paradigm and it almost makes me wonder if they had a non-Windows archictect in charge of their installer.
I think it is more the newest paradigm of software engineering. The immense control the mothership gains would be scary if they were not Christians. Logos 4 will route out all the dishonest users who install one license on multiple computers. There are logs made of what ISP you log on from, what computer Media Access Code your network card has and these can be compared to find multiple users of one license. It is the wave of the future in software pirating protection.
The ONLY drawbacks I see is the damage other users can cause to the notes & account purchases. I am HOPING no pastor is keeping detailed counseling notes in the cloud. That would be a serious violation of law & confidentiality.
Here is another possible solution: If you have Version 3, install that side by side with Version 4. Allow the children to use Version 3. They will have most of the fine resources and still not be able to mess up too much.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Ariyl said:
Richard, just what is your point with these irrelevant assumptions? You do a lot of ASSUMING don't you? What exactly is your motive with these assumptions?
(They were not assumptions, you posted it)
(Irrelevant?: I believe is the fact that you are sending (which is a violation) software out of house)
(Motive: To stop)
So your trying to tell me about an EULA because of your remark needs no reply.
(Too late)
I'm pretty aware of what Logos any many others use as a standard EULA. But you NEED to understand this: I DON'T LIVE BY MAN'S WORDS, I LIVE BY THE WORDS OF YAHWEH That is, man's words, traditions etc don't rule my moral actions. I'm not a brainwashed slave of Rome.
I was going to refrain... and I'll kick myself for getting involved with this thread....
But ...I'm near speechless by the way you communicate Ariyl. And I'm not about to lecture anybody (mainly because it wouldn't help) but there are any number of verses in Scripture that you've been violating by the way you are communicating. WOW...
Logos has EVERY right to protect THEIR software from being missused/abused. If you don't like a companies policies you have the freedom to shop elsewhere or don't buy at all. When you DO purchace YOU ARE agreeing to the terms... (a few veres could be posted on that as well)
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Ariyl said:
I DON'T LIVE BY MAN'S WORDS, I LIVE BY THE WORDS OF YAHWEH That is, man's words, traditions etc don't rule my moral actions. I'm not a brainwashed slave of Rome.
I knew a fellow who swore off driver's licenses, income tax, marriage licenses and ended up helping his brother blow up the Alfred P Murrah building killing a bunch of little children in the process. I lost 8 friends in that bombing because a man threw off God-ordained government.
These babies lived next door to me:
They died here:
I am sorry your minor children don't get to live with you.. If you are not doing evil, you have nothing to fear of those who minister for God by punishing lawbreakers with the sword.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Larry Schmid said:Matthew C Jones said:
The difference is you bought multiple Bibles but only one Logos license. I re-read the original post and I am disturbed by this statement:
"For example, many people have children and had no problems installing Logos 3 for them. Everything they did on that machine was their own problem so to speak. We simply installed the Key file or sent it to them and they were off to the races. "
"installed the key or SENT it to them..!!??"
Are these minor children are living in a different residence? This is exactly what Bob was talking about. I have 13 kids. Five of them are adults. It would be stealing for me to claim my Logos license covers my five grown children, their spouses & babies. (We can't "get saved" for our grown children either.)
You are "disturbed" by the statement? By what part? By the part that you hand picked and are ASSUMING the worst of, and don't care to realize the inherent legitimate problem? Is everyone a one track minded pessimist? ITS AN EXAMPLE! Did you read or comprehend that part?
So Bob was talking about minor children that don't live with a parent? I doubt it. I think you are being deceptive with that quote. Regardless of a parent with children abroad scenario, it seems that no one can or wants to comprehend ANY legitimate scenario...so they would rather drift off into irrelevant, assumptions and make statements agaiinst it (to the detriment of children). Because here is an easy to understand scenario: Many parents have minor children at home and the children can no longer use this software, because of the inherent dangers mentioned here. But has anyone spoken up for the children here for such an obvious and real scenario? So sad, it's a SHAME. Maybe I should not have posted this and sat back with the same uncaring selfish attitude and watch everyone pay heavily down the road by losing all their life's work due to the "great Sync feature". It will indeed be hilarious if nothing is ever done about it, knowing you all had somenone informing you before hand. You can now go back to sleep, it was just a dream...
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"Save the Children!"
Kids need saving from video games more than rescue from Bible software. Youtube & facebook & MySpace are much more dangerous than BobP and the Logos family. Public school political indoctrination is more dangerous than praying & hearing the 10 commandments. Cell phones & iPods are threatening kids as we speak.
There is a spiritual war going on for the souls of our children. Few people have blessed my family like the Logos people. I think your hostilities are misplaced.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Matthew C Jones said:
I think it is more the newest paradigm of software engineering.
Just to clarify, if Logos had wanted to ensure only a single user on the machine could use Logos 4, they could have enabled their software to only install for a single user quite simply, and still have adhered to standard Windows installer practices. Truly, installing the program into Application Data is akin to installing the program into the System32 directory in terms of paradigms. Ultimately, based upon the fact that they are still having rights issues within AppData, I'm hopeful that they'll learn from their mistake and re-evaluate how they are installing in Windows environments. That being said, I saw in another post you made that you have 13 children! Congratulations and I hope that they are as much a blessing to you as my four are to me.
Matt
Specs:
Windows 7 x64
Quad Xeon 2.83 GHz x2
16GB RAM
Nvidia 285 GTX 1GB VRAM
Logos 4.1 Platinum, SR-3, indexed0 -
Jeremiah Daniel Morris said:Ariyl said:
Richard, just what is your point with these irrelevant assumptions? You do a lot of ASSUMING don't you? What exactly is your motive with these assumptions?
(They were not assumptions, you posted it)
(Irrelevant?: I believe is the fact that you are sending (which is a violation) software out of house)
(Motive: To stop)
So your trying to tell me about an EULA because of your remark needs no reply.
(Too late)
I'm pretty aware of what Logos any many others use as a standard EULA. But you NEED to understand this: I DON'T LIVE BY MAN'S WORDS, I LIVE BY THE WORDS OF YAHWEH That is, man's words, traditions etc don't rule my moral actions. I'm not a brainwashed slave of Rome.
I was going to refrain... and I'll kick myself for getting involved with this thread....
But ...I'm near speechless by the way you communicate Ariyl. And I'm not about to lecture anybody (mainly because it wouldn't help) but there are any number of verses in Scripture that you've been violating by the way you are communicating. WOW...
Logos has EVERY right to protect THEIR software from being missused/abused. If you don't like a companies policies you have the freedom to shop elsewhere or don't buy at all. When you DO purchace YOU ARE agreeing to the terms... (a few veres could be posted on that as well)
You are seriously disillusioned about Scripture and are living dangerous and foolishly concerning it. In fact, Scripture says your own standard of judgment could very well condemn you. So for example, If YOU come to find that the Creator does not forgive you just because you called on and believed in "Jesus" (but actually wanted obedience and exclusive worship of His actual Hebrew Name (Yahshua), then your standard of judgment will condemn you, since you "agreed" and accepted "jesus" instead as binding, although deceptive. Scripture teaches that one is not punished for being deceived, yet you have made it so you WILL get punished for being deceived. You like to uphold and be justified by deceptive words rather than truth?
But I hold no such obstinate belief. I am mindful that man makes errors and therefore cannot force my mind to believe his words are perfect and binding. Only what is TRUE is binding.
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Dan Pritchett said:
Counting the Ten Commandments -- at BibleStudyMagazine.com
Ah, come on ... only three? This is what I was ready to build into my parallels when L4 came out:
I think my research was accurate. [A]
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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