Sync Feature via Email & Password Activation Insecurites
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*kicking self [:|]
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Ariyl said:
"Jesus" (but actually wanted obedience and exclusive worship of His actual Hebrew Name (Yahshua),
Oh, and I thought this was about Logos being unfair to children........ My Jewish grandmother would say it isn't kosher to cast pearls before swine.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Jeremiah Daniel Morris said:
*kicking self
(Matthew C Jones takes off his prosthetic leg and kicks himself too.) Ouch.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Ariyl said:
But you NEED to understand this: I DON'T LIVE BY MAN'S WORDS, I LIVE BY THE WORDS OF YAHWEH That is, man's words, traditions etc don't rule my moral actions. I'm not a brainwashed slave of Rome.
This is commendable. However, it also carries the responsibility to not purchase a product for which you are unwilling to accept the conditions of that purchase. It becomes the equivalent of "stealing" just as using pirated copies of DVD, CD, books, etc. is stealing. True, you could correctly claim that there is no indication that the concept of intellectual property at the time the 10 Commandments were delivered. But then again, there is little evidence of personal property (in contrast to family property) at that time.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Ariyl said:
Sir, you sound like an Adversary to Biblical truth or one who does not have a clue about it nor lives by it. What a shame you take a standard EULA to an extreme and disrespect the fact that the Savior taught in Scripture: LET the children also come to me. Children weren't charged Tithes or Fees to enter the gates etc in order to hear and learn the Word of Yahweh. Adults were. So the children were FREE FROM / LET / ALLOWED. Yet it sounds like you would have rebelled and sat at the gates and CHARGED children against what the Savior taught, because "Rome or whatever has a "law" that says such and such". Whatever law man makes is their problem. I believe in the Laws in the Scriptures as is taught. I don't need replies from people who disrespect Scriptural Laws over man's perverted "laws" First learn to love the teaching of Scripture over man's money making ventures. There is nothing to rethink. I don't think Logos is that stupid to disrespect Scriptural truth for money.
I don't mind being called names, or responding to criticism, but it would help if I could figure out what you are trying to say. If you are trying to say I am keeping the Word from you, your family and the world by pointing out that you are breaking the law by sharing Logos, I don't think that holds much water - there is at least one free bible program available (the sword), download that and share it all you want.
You criticizing my faith or my love of my Lord or scripture because you want to justify stealing seems kind of hypocritical.
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Matt said:
All of this because Logos decided to install their program files into the user's AppData folder, a practice which I have never witnessed (nor had I witnessed it when 'Documents and Settings\Application Data' ruled the roost). I'm not attempting to be unfair to the engineers at Logos, because from what I've witnessed in their software and their developer blogs, they have some very good people. However, 'getting around security' issues is not a valid reason to break such a well-established paradigm and it almost makes me wonder if they had a non-Windows archictect in charge of their installer.
IMHO the Sync paradigm has driven this method of installation, which in turn was driven by L3 usage and Support(CS) statistics. It is quite clear that other L4 users on their computer can mess around with each other's preferences, documents and method of working. The same will happen if L4 is installed on another computer, because sync'ing is based on the single user who has the licence to the resources! And that single L3 user would go to great lengths to synchronise their various legitimate installations; some LAN based, some "cloud" based. In an attempt to perfect some of the faults of this and also to improve support costs re: missing resource (and some piracy concerns) we have this method of installation and "cloud" based resource management keeping our resources in sync with our licence and other legitimate installation.
L4 poses greater moral issues than L3 ever did in turns of keeping within the terms of the (essentially same) EULA, whilst trying to support the same examples of "fair use" that Bob has provided ie. how do I allow my children their own access to my software on MY computer. L4's method would fly in the face of a Windows architectural decision that allows multiple user accounts, where they have been been concerned with the security and integrity of their operating system in light of the same circumstances (see the progression from Windows 98 to more secure user accounts in Windows XP and beyond; even to their free, not-well-known, software that can be installed to impose greater restrictions on standard user accounts than the parent OS, especially in the case of Windows XP Home).
So yes, I am concerned, particulalrly as L4 poses particular problems for installation for users who operate a standard user account, or even a Power User account where admin privilige is required and may still be required during an update. The other problems of multiple large downloads & indexing are well documented and constitute another part of the moral burden referred to above ie. are there legitimate ways to avoid multiple downloading and indexing beyond what may/may not be provided by use of a Logos DVD? I believe that the answer is almost certainly "Yes"! And if pirates didn't find a way then users would (one can browse the Forum for unsupported methods).
So we have (complicated) ways to do what was allowed with Libronix, except for the sync'ing of user preferences and user documents. The ultimate solution for that is in the hands of Logos because there is no provision for an L4 Administrator or multiple sign-in's!
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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What point don't you understand, Richard? That statement itself says you probably have not even comprehended the problems from the start. I gave an (singular) EXAMPLE of people having children (minor children) who can no longer safely allow their children to use the software anymore. Whatever is done on their install will affect your own settings. It will manipulate and/or ruin years of your own notes, settings etc. Do you understand that if you install this new software on another machine or for another User, everything that is done on that Machine/User is SYNCED with the other User? I KNOW OF NO ONE that doesn't mind having their own personal settings tampered with or ruined by what someone else does on their own account. It is a serious error in design.
If you can't comprehend that scenario, then think of your machine getting stolen. Whatever that thief does to your Logos 4 will be instantly SYNCED to their servers. So when/if you can afford to install it on a new machine, VOILA! All your years work, settings, notes, markups etc may be GONE, 'cause that thief is having fun with your Logos 4!
There are MANY scenarios, but apparently no one wants to see or think of them (reminds me of blind faith).
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Matt said:
Truly, installing the program into Application Data is akin to installing the program into the System32 directory in terms of paradigms.
I am still thinking this change has more to do with some philosophical move than technical. I have not kept up with Microsoft's developments for a few years. When the Framework and .net changes came I retired form the keep up with Johnny game. I do suspect having the Microsoft Certified Partner haunting the halls of Logos HQ could be related. [{] The MCPs do effect changes, more than we know.
If this whole new method of installing was not guided by higher advisors I am truly amazed the Logos team got it functioning as well as they did. It is a a new breed.
Matt said:13 children! Congratulations and I hope that they are as much a blessing to you as my four are to me.
(Yep, it is a privilege to raise these children.. Not easy, but a blessing.)
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Michael Birney said:
I don't mind being called names, or responding to criticism, but it would help if I could figure out what you are trying to say. If you are trying to say I am keeping the Word from you, your family and the world by pointing out that you are breaking the law by sharing Logos, I don't think that holds much water - there is at least one free bible program available (the sword), download that and share it all you want.
You criticizing my faith or my love of my Lord or scripture because you want to justify stealing seems kind of hypocritical.
From where have you deceived yourself into believing that you have ponted out that I am breaking the law by sharing Logos? Are you going to cite man's roman law to me and demand that I have faith in it? That would be foolish. You sure aren't going to cite the Truth.
Why would you try to convince me to resort to a limited freeware to educate my children, while I have Logos 4? How wicked a thought! Show yourself. I'm amused now. Oh, I see who you have love for...
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Ariyl said:
There are MANY scenarios, but apparently no one wants to see or think of them
I guess each of us has a personal responsibility to deal with the situation God has put us in. I have to provide lots of food to feed my large family. You may have to provide two insurance policies to cover your personal property.
I would not put a $10,000 diamond necklace on my 12 year old, nor a loaded shotgun in my 10 year old's hands. Not to deny them something but BECAUSE I do love them. Maybe a cheaper license of Logos would suffice. Do your minor children really need The Ugaritic Library or Baker Exegetical Commentary or HALOT/BDAG? Will your child's first car be a $40,000 SUV?
Dr. Art Robinson (Robinson's Self-Teaching Curriculum) recommends children not use computers until they are about 16 years of age. His kids have been offered full scholarships at Yale, Harvard & others following their father's advice.
Logos does not exist to meet every scenario.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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MJ. Smith said:Ariyl said:
But you NEED to understand this: I DON'T LIVE BY MAN'S WORDS, I LIVE BY THE WORDS OF YAHWEH That is, man's words, traditions etc don't rule my moral actions. I'm not a brainwashed slave of Rome.
This is commendable. However, it also carries the responsibility to not purchase a product for which you are unwilling to accept the conditions of that purchase. It becomes the equivalent of "stealing" just as using pirated copies of DVD, CD, books, etc. is stealing. True, you could correctly claim that there is no indication that the concept of intellectual property at the time the 10 Commandments were delivered. But then again, there is little evidence of personal property (in contrast to family property) at that time.
To accept a product and not agree to accept the conditions for that purchase becomes the equvalent of stealing? What kind of boat did that fall off? That makes no sense.Sir, Roman law does not even hold one accountable for anything ILLEGALLY written in a contract. Anything that is illegal in it would be dismissed and what is binding will stand. EXAMPLE (try to think of other examples): How would you like a man to make a contract to take your children for X amount of years for a price, because you ended up a desperate fool? Do you suppose he can go to court and demand them or certain behavior from them? I don't know what book y'all read from, but it sure doesn't have anything to do with believing in all Scriptural Truth.
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Ariyl said:
Why would you try to convince me to resort to a limited freeware to educate my children, while I have Logos 4? How wicked a thought! Show yourself. I'm amused now
Would you shoplift prime rib from the grocery store so your children don't have to eat ramen noodles? I cannot believe I am hearing someone advocate rebellion to government authority & blatant disregard of the 10 commandments.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Ariyl... I think a good fresh dose of Proverbs is in order....
*Kicking-Self [:|]
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So when Jesus says " Luke 20:24–25 (ESV) 24 “Show me a denarius. Whose likeness and inscription does it have?” They said, “Caesar’s.” 25 He said to them, “Then render to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s.” He was not talking about obeying the ROMAN law? He was.
Or when the Word says, Proverbs 18:1 (GDNT) 1 "People who do not get along with others are interested only in themselves; they will disagree with what everyone else knows is right." You don't think this is speaking directly about you? It is.
Remember you were the one who asked about using multiple copies of Logos in the first place. You got a bunch of counsel, which you have decided to argue with by twisting scripture so you can justify stealing from Logos. You answer to God for your choices.
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Ariyl said:
To accept a product and not agree to accept the conditions for that purchase becomes the equvalent of stealing? What kind of boat did that fall off? That makes no sense
When you install Logos you gave your word to follow the EULA. If you don't you have lied. (it's in your Bible)
Ariyl said:Sir, Roman law does not even hold one accountable for anything ILLEGALLY written in a contract. Anything that is illegal in it would be dismissed and what is binding will stand
The Logos EULA is legal. What's more, if you don't like it you have a 30 day money back guarantee. (You only get money back if you paid for it.)
Ariyl said:How would you like a man to make a contract to take your children for X amount of years for a price, because you ended up a desperate fool? Do you suppose he can go to court and demand them or certain behavior from them?
This is precisely what the prophet dealt with in the OT. He had the widow sell the oil & PAY off the debt. That is acknowledgement the debt was valid.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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It is amazing how much energy is put into disuading another for doing the utmost for their children...very sad. Oppressive generation.
It goes without saying, and idiotic for somebody to think that any software exists to meet every scenario. So that sounds like a statement tailored for a dumb person to accept as a "justifiable" reason to deny another something. It is a serious flaw that virtually all software is free of. In fact, I know not ONE.
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I'm sorry, I gave you too much credit. I must be speaking to a minor child with these infantile responses. Do you have your parents permission? I say this, because your analogy is pathetically immature. I hope you are a child, because your perverted analogy assumes I never paid for what I have and would rather steal what I could not buy. That makes you like an Accuser. Please refrain.
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Ariyl said:
It is amazing how much energy is put into disuading another for doing the utmost for their children...very sad. Oppressive generation.
In 1995 I tried to give my children the best of everything. I worked 7 days a week, 16 hour days. I bought a 4 story mansion with 214 windows (former US Senator's home.) I spent $100K on "things" that year. I never went to church and seldom saw my children. I now live in a cramped old house with twice as many kids. I have to look up to see the poverty level. I talk to, hug, tease, discipline and see my children all day long, every day. The example of an honest, hard working self-sacrificing father is the best thing I will ever give them.
In 2 Samuel 12:9-12:10 King David was a thief. Twelve chapters later in 2 Samuel 24:24 we see King David has matured spiritually.
Love of mammon hurts. I'd rather pay twice or do without all-together. Go read the Bible to them or give them your Logos license. It isn't doing you much good.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Matthew C Jones said:
I do suspect having the Microsoft Certified Partner haunting the halls of Logos HQ could be related.
Ultimately, I'll find some way to work around it, but the engineer in me is compelled to clarify. My company is a MCP as well, and I've been programming windows at the kernel and service level for well over a decade, so I can definitely attest that what they have done is highly non-standard and deviates widely from the separation of binary and data paradigm inherent in the Windows application architecture. There must have been some good reason for it, but I'm scratching my head as to what it is. The security problems introduced with Vista are fairly easy to sidestep if the Windows security model is understood, so it must not have been security related. If it was due to only wanting a single user on a computer maintain their settings, then that could have been achieved in a much more standardized fashion, so, again, that must not be it. Oh well.
Matt
Specs:
Windows 7 x64
Quad Xeon 2.83 GHz x2
16GB RAM
Nvidia 285 GTX 1GB VRAM
Logos 4.1 Platinum, SR-3, indexed0 -
Matt said:
If it was due to only wanting a single user on a computer maintain their settings, then that could have been achieved in a much more standardized fashion, so, again, that must not be it.
My understanding, of what you're discussing here (having backtracked through the discussion), and I'm not sure where I remember reading this, is that one reason for putting the program and data in the app data subdirectory is that it solves some problems related to private users installing on some large networks (as in educational institutions). There was another reason mentioned, but I'm not entirely sure what that was, and I may be leaving out some critical detail on what I am remembering. I'm not an IT person, so most of what was said didn't mean much at the time. The discussion was quite early on in the beta process and it's almost impossible to search old discussions in this forum software.
Help links: WIKI; Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)
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Hi Matt,
I guess you probably already thought of this, but....
You could just install Logos4 for each user and then for the kids set Use Internet to No so that it doesn't sync with your stuff. If hard drive space is an issue you could copy the data directory to somewhere public (eg C:\Logos4\Data), and then make a link within each installation. (ie run an elevated command prompt and run mklink /d Data C:\Logos4\Data in each of the user's Logos4 directories.
If you're feeling like a challenge -and I see you've got plenty of computer experience- a more elegant solution, if you can get it to work, would be to install the program once to a public location and then put the user specific stuff in their appdata directories. I mostly succeeded in doing this by doing the following:
1. Backing up the Data and Documents directories and then uninstalling, deleting all files related to the previous installation, and reinstalling to C:\Logos4 (mimicking method 2 from these instructions for installing to multiple computers without having to redownload and index.)
2. After logging into Logos4, and placing the data and documents subdirectories under the new <random> directory, I removed the document directory entirely from C:\Logos4 and created a Logos4 directory in each users' AppData\Roaming directory and copied it there.
3. I created the following batch file and created a task in Task Scheduler to run it with elevated privileges at login for each user. The mklink command would require each user to have admin privileges; although you could get rid of the mklink command and just copy the folder across instead.
rmdir C:\Logos4\Documents /Q
cd C:\Logos4
mklink /d Documents %APPDATA%\Logos4\Documents4. Login to the kids' account, login to Logos 4 and set Use Internet to No to stop theres' from syncing.
As I said at the start, I mostly got this to work. As I logged into each user the symbolic link to Documents in C:\Logos4 correctly redirected to the documents folder in that users' AppData directory. I also exported the Current User->Software->Logos4 keys from the user I installed with and imported it into the other users, though I don't know in the end if this was actually necessary. After setting Use Internet to No, changing settings in one user did not affect other users. It messed up my reading plan and for some reason Biblical People/Places/Things stopped working... go figure; I'm sure you could probably iron out the kinks.
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Richard DeRuiter said:
My understanding, of what you're discussing here (having backtracked through the discussion), and I'm not sure where I remember reading this, is that one reason for putting the program and data in the app data subdirectory is that it solves some problems related to private users installing on some large networks (as in educational institutions).
I don't think so, Rich. If Corporates want to block installations it is very simple to do so. In any case, the large downloads of L4 can also be blocked (limited). There is also nothing special about the user AppData folder as it has the same access (Full Control) as the top-level <user name> folder due to inheritance.
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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Dave Hooton said:
There is also nothing special about the user AppData folder as it has the same access (Full Control) as the top-level <user name> folder due to inheritance.
Yes true. But if you're going to have to put it under the User folder, what better place than AppData. If I remember right from the discussion, this is an emerging strategy for other programs as well. This isn't about getting around security concerns, but working with established LAN strategies for managing personal work stations.
But I'm way out of my league here. I have a hard enough time connecting my shared printer to other computers through my home wireless router.
Help links: WIKI; Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)
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Hi Jon, first off, thanks so much for your detailed and thoughtful post! I have copied out your instructions and when/if I decide to tackle this, I'll give it a go. I wish Logos would recognize what a mess they've made of a simple software install for user's with families who all share a computer with no discernable benefit to a single user. Anyway, I'm sure Logos has made note of this issue and they'll either address it or they won't.
Matt
Specs:
Windows 7 x64
Quad Xeon 2.83 GHz x2
16GB RAM
Nvidia 285 GTX 1GB VRAM
Logos 4.1 Platinum, SR-3, indexed0 -
Matthew C Jones said:Ariyl said:
How would you like a man to make a contract to take your children for X amount of years for a price, because you ended up a desperate fool? Do you suppose he can go to court and demand them or certain behavior from them?
This is precisely what the prophet dealt with in the OT. He had the widow sell the oil & PAY off the debt. That is acknowledgement the debt was valid.
At least you could think of the Scriptural story I had in mind. However, it flew over your head. I'm about done speaking with you, because you show your level of comprehension. You don't read well, as you ignored half the sentence.
Concerning a refund, that is not possible with all. You really should try to give more than 5 seconds of thought before making statements like this. If a person buys this software and 31, 41, 51+ days down the line realizes it has this or other no disclosed unwanted flaws, can they demand a refund? And IF so, how much hassle and money do you think he will spend fighting for it? Because you see, not everyone is going to realize this or other problems until much later. There are even people here that are having trouble comprehending what the problem is.
Concerning terms of an agreement: Everyone must be a thief and hypocrite when you go into a store and purchase something on sale with a limit of ONE PER PERSON, but then turns around and shares it with family. Or a sale of LIMIT TWO PER HOUSEHOLD, but then takes one or both and gives it as a gift to another household, because theoretically it can be easily manipulated as 4, 6, 8 etc. Or how many lying, thieving hypocrites go 1, 2, 10, 20 mph over the speed LIMIT daily breaking their Agreement to USE a vehicle that can kill. So don't call someone a thief until you can admit that you're one, because there are an innumerable amount of ways a person is guilty of stealing and breaking Lawfully BINDING agreements etc You even buy unLawful property. Or maybe that car that goes 120 mph is Lawfully safe, when the law says the speed Limit is 60mph?. Did you sacrifice and buy that moped or electric car that only goes 60mph so you can live according to what is Lawful? Or did everyone read the EULAs that literally limit a person installing software on ONE machine. That is, when it breaks or gets stolen you literally are supposed to BUY another copy. Maybe everyone ignored that part, or deceived themselves in believing they didn't see it. Or like most, didn't read it, because their conscience knows much of it is not righteous. Or else that would make everyone liars, thieves and hypocrites in every sense of the words. And more importantly, it makes everyone an "i am holier than thou" Accuser.
You need to realize that it is a Criminal Act in Scripture to sell someone something with the impression that it works as intended, but later turns out otherwise. I am lenient. I do not personally charge Logos for a refund on the grounds that they are selling a half COMPLETE software that is essentially a Beta at full value. Many of their features don't work and titles are corrupt etc. Do you think I or anyone agreed to all that? Every seller of software first falls in violation of Law, since it is a LIE that every software does everything that it is advertised to do. Moreover, it breaks another Law of disclosure amongst many other things. So tell me, which came First: The undisclosed lie/deceptive sell, or the purchase of it? So, is everyone truly agreeing to purchase and accept undisclosed, flawed property? Because IF EVERYTHING were honest and Lawful in the product and agreement, then by Law you cannot even complain when it doesn't work! So all these people reporting Legitimate problems are lying hypocrites as well? Or better yet, show me a righteous man in all Scripture that returned or complained about something he bought, and I'll show you a DECEIVED/CHEATED man. And I hardly believe they had written "warranties", because it goes without saying due to Scriptural Law protecting a person against EVER being deceived/cheated. Your Roman logic is absurd. Period.
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Ariyl said:
At least you could think of the Scriptural story I had in mind. However, it flew over your head. I'm about done speaking with you, because you show your level of comprehension. You don't read well, as you ignored half the sentence.
After ripping the rug out from under your whole argument I didn't feel it neccessary. Your premise is wrong.
Ariyl said:Concerning a refund, that is not possible with all. You really should try to give more than 5 seconds of thought before making statements like this. If a person buys this software and 31, 41, 51+ days down the line realizes it has this or other no disclosed unwanted flaws,
What "flaws" are you referring to? The features that prevent piracy? Since Logos Version 4 has not been out 30 days yet everybody who does not want to get caught pirating can get their money back. They can thank you for the red flags.
Ariyl said:There are even people here that are having trouble comprehending what the problem is.
Yeah? Black helicopters? Maybe the premise is wrong. (Oh, I already said that.)
Ariyl said:Or maybe that car that goes 120 mph is Lawfully safe, when the law says the speed Limit is 60mph?. Did you sacrifice and buy that moped or electric car that only goes 60mph so you can live according to what is Lawful?
If you have no self-control, you should get a pair of roller skates. If you had a moped that goes over 60mph I think the Highway Patrolman who arrests you is your best friend. A co-worker of mine put a Corvette engine on a motorcycle. Just because it can be done does not make it wise, expedient or lawful.
Ariyl said:Or like most, didn't read it, because their conscience knows much of it is not righteous.
Reminds me of Johnny Carson's The Great Karnack. How are you going to know what the EULA contains if you don't read it? Part of the EULA you agree to before installing the program says you read it. If the user lies about reading it why should he complain? Jeffrey Dahmer's conscience let him do lots of unlawfull things.
Ariyl said:Do you think I or anyone agreed to all that?
If you didn't lie when you read and installed the Logos Version 4 software, you did in fact agree to it. We live in a fallen world. Babies die, crops fail, cancer kills, banks fail, seedless watermelons have seeds!
Ariyl said:So all these people reporting Legitimate problems are lying hypocrites as well?
You know you have the right under Mosaic law to stone your teenager for rebellion? I sure hope you don't exercise your right. Jesus forgave the woman caught in adultery. You can't find it in yourself to help Logos become even better? Where is the ministry of reconciliation? Where is the forgiving 70x7? Where is the covering of a multitude of sins? Almost everyone who posts "problems" in the forums loves Logos software and wants to help make the BEST even better.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Matthew C Jones said:
The example of an honest, hard working self-sacrificing father is the best thing I will ever give them.
My statement yesterday is incorrect.
.The utmost for our children is only found in the person of Jesus Christ. You can call Him יהוה , אלוהים
or यीशु, Иисус, พระเยซูคริสต์, イエス・キリスト, Gesù, 耶穌, 예수, ......even λογος
Just introduce your children to Him.Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Matt said:
I work with VMs all day long, so other than the performance impact, it would be doable, but hardly ideal, and I think this unnecessarily complicate the computing and learning experience for my wife and kids.
Wait a minute Matt! I just read your specs:
Windows 7 x64
Quad Xeon 2.83 GHz x2
16GB RAM
Nvidia 285 GTX 1GB VRAM
Logos 4 Platinum, SR-7, indexedWith that system all you need is 4x 1.5TB hard disk drives in a stripe/mirror RAID array and your family will never see the little hourglass again. IF ONLY I had this for my homeschooling computer... [6]
("Thou shalt not covet, Thou shalt not covet, Thou shalt not.." Matthew mumbles as he exits.)
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Ariyl,
I'm sorry I'm so late to this thread.
First of all, we care about great customer service. Your statement that "a refund is not possible with all" isn't true; our return policy is limited in days for technical reasons of legal liability, but from a practical point of view, we've offered refunds three years later. If you're unhappy with the software, we don't want to be holding onto your money.
Your concerns about "auto log in" security are valid, but I think overblown with regards to Bible software. I think that if someone steals your laptop, messing with your Logos 4 notes and settings is probably not their intention. We aren't storing financial records. Yes, they could purchase things using your account, (though I'm not sure how they'd get your password out of the software), but all they can buy is Bible study materials, and we'd happily refund any false charges you identified.
Moreover, proper security involves creating a user account on your system and putting a password on it. If you are security conscious, then anyone stealing your laptop would have the hardware, but would not be logged into your account, and thus unable to mess with your Logos settings.
The issue of children messing with settings is difficult. I _do_ leave my machine logged into my account at home, because it's easier for me. And I find many "kid-induced" annoyances -- like unsaved homework assignments open on the screen in Microsoft Word. The kids have separate accounts (and now, separate computers), but I still suffer some inconveniences. (A friend of my daughter likes to put "<name> was here" on a 3d screensaver every time she encounters an unlocked machine.) It's a small price to pay for the convenience of not locking my machine every time I step away. (Which I do do at work.)
I suppose we could build sophisticated master/dependent account management with separate document and setting management into the software. But it would introduce lots of complexity and, I fear, tempt many people to use it not for their kids, but rather to share accounts between independent adults. And since the "99% case" of our users are individuals who use it alone, we'd add a lot of complexity for little value, and possibly introduce lots of headaches. (What if you kept separate sub-accounts yourself, to manage different settings on different laptops, but then wanted to move a document from one account to another. Now we need UI, revision tracking, data merging, and lots more overhead.)
I think of our user account like a cell phone. You can buy one for everyone in your family, or share one in a couple, or even for the whole family. If you share it -- and if you pass your phone to the kids in the backseat to play games while you drive, you'll find your wallpaper image changed and may have speed dial settings for other kids, and silly text messages in your message history. Buying each kid a phone costs more, though. But either way, we're all pretty glad our cell phones aren't complicated with a log in and profile management system we have to deal with!
-- Bob
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Bob,
I can see why you're the CEO. A very well put post. You almost had me convinced up until this:
Bob Pritchett said:I think of our user account like a cell phone. You can buy one for everyone in your family, or share one in a couple, or even for the whole family. If you share it -- and if you pass your phone to the kids in the backseat to play games while you drive, you'll find your wallpaper image changed and may have speed dial settings for other kids, and silly text messages in your message history.
A computer loaded with Microsoft Windows 7 is not a cell phone! Nor is Logos 4 a cell phone. Nor, does one, when purchasing a computer, or software for Windows (and I believe a Macintosh), think of what they're purchasing even remotely in terms resembling a cell phone. This approach to software installation essentially means that while Logos has embraced the future in utilizing WPF, it has simultaneously taken a giant step backwards to the past when computers did not allow for multiple user accounts, each with their own per-user settings nicely sandboxed. I won't go on any more about this here because I've already covered in detail how onerous to a family and wacky this paradigm is in other posts.
Matt
Specs:
Windows 7 x64
Quad Xeon 2.83 GHz x2
16GB RAM
Nvidia 285 GTX 1GB VRAM
Logos 4.1 Platinum, SR-3, indexed0 -
That's a step backwards? I don't think so. Having everything "sandboxed" on my computers keeps my kids from killing my computer and my documents, and my logos and my... you should get the point by now.Matt said:it has simultaneously taken a giant step backwards to the past when computers did not allow for multiple user accounts, each with their own per-user settings nicely sandboxed.
Sarcasm is my love language. Obviously I love you. 0 -
Thomas Black said:
That's a step backwards? I don't think so. Having everything "sandboxed" on my computers keeps my kids from killing my computer and my documents, and my logos and my... you should get the point by now.
Thomas, I think you missed Matt's point. He was saying the single user focus of Logos is a step backwards.
EDIT: I'm not saying that I agree with Matt's point entirely.
Prov. 15:23
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Simplified EULA for Logos Version 5:
"Treat your Logos license like your toothbrush. Now go share it with as many people...."
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Matthew C Jones said:
"Treat your Logos license like your toothbrush. Now go share it with as many people...."
lol
Happy Thanksgiving everyone.
Matt
Specs:
Windows 7 x64
Quad Xeon 2.83 GHz x2
16GB RAM
Nvidia 285 GTX 1GB VRAM
Logos 4.1 Platinum, SR-3, indexed0 -
Bob Pritchett said:
I suppose we could build sophisticated master/dependent account management with separate document and setting management into the software. But it would introduce lots of complexity and, I fear, tempt many people to use it not for their kids, but rather to share accounts between independent adults. And since the "99% case" of our users are individuals who use it alone, we'd add a lot of complexity for little value, and possibly introduce lots of headaches. (What if you kept separate sub-accounts yourself, to manage different settings on different laptops, but then wanted to move a document from one account to another. Now we need UI, revision tracking, data merging, and lots more overhead.)
I think of our user account like a cell phone.
There are comments elsewhere in regard to getting L4 to work in different user accounts as independent installations, but the central issue is the download burden with multiple installations and/or re-installations because of hardware failure. It would be a simple matter for the installer to request a local resource path and have only to download what is missing or needs an update. I would think the advantages to both user and Logos are quite obvious, as well as benefiting the load on the internet as a whole!
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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I'm amazed at the number of unofficial Logos spokespersons, armchair lawyers, armchair DRM/copyright law experts, and judges of men's hearts that have popped up in this thread.
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Bryan Smith said:
I'm amazed at the number
Here are the actors (in order of first appearance) :
Ariyl, Michael Birney, *Bradley Grainger, Damian McGrath, Matt, Matthew C Jones, Dave Hooton, *Dan Pritchett, Philip Spitzer, Chris Elford, MikeWaterhouse, Edward Hyndman, *George Allakhverdyan, Jeremiah Daniel Morris, Larry Schmid, Richard DeRuiter, MJ. Smith, Jon Rumble, *Bob Pritchett, Thomas Black, Kevin Becker, Bryan Smith.
The 4 names with an * by them are actual official Logos people.
I count at least 4 more that are IT professionals or software engineers.
At least 5 more (probably 10) are priests or pastors who spend their time instructing others about sin, morality & ethics.
There are many details unknown about everyone listed. I can't swing a dead cat at Thanksgiving without hitting a judge, lawyer, cop or preacher in the room.If the watchman doesn't cry out his warning, the watchman bears the guilt. When a man declares he is above the law he should expect response.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Wasn't that the point of the thread? The op asked a question, and a bunch of forum members answered. If he wanted advise from a lawyer or copyright expert he wouldn't of posted on this forum now would he? He had options, he could of called Logos, he could of called a lawyer, he could of not posted anything. His post meant he wanted responses, he got them.
And, just for fun .... aren't you judging men's hearts with your comments?
And, (questioning my sanity and pride) why do I respond to this drivel? (Is drivel a harsh word?)
Bryan Smith said:I'm amazed at the number of unofficial Logos spokespersons, armchair lawyers, armchair DRM/copyright law experts, and judges of men's hearts that have popped up in this thread.
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Sometimes I can't help but grab the hornets nest and shake it. [:P] And yes, I should probably be counted in the last category, that's a good point.
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Matt said:
All of this because Logos decided to install their program files into the user's AppData folder, a practice which I have never witnessed (nor had I witnessed it when 'Documents and Settings\Application Data' ruled the roost). I'm not attempting to be unfair to the engineers at Logos, because from what I've witnessed in their software and their developer blogs, they have some very good people. However, 'getting around security' issues is not a valid reason to break such a well-established paradigm and it almost makes me wonder if they had a non-Windows archictect in charge of their installer.
Hi Matt,
This installation practice is certainly not non-standard (though it is uncommon). Please see the "Requirements for the Windows Vista Logo Program for Software" (http://download.microsoft.com/download/8/e/4/8e4c929d-679a-4238-8c21-2dcc8ed1f35c/Windows%20Vista%20Software%20Logo%20Spec%201.1.doc), section 2.3, "Install to Correct Folders": "Applications should be installed to Program Files or the user’s AppData folder by default." While Program Files is listed first, the user's AppData folder is also an acceptable default. I believe our installation is fully within the Vista (and Windows 7) logo guidelines for installation (with the possible exception of not supporting a command-line installation; I'd have to check on that).
Bradley
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Bradley Grainger said:
This installation practice is certainly not non-standard (though it is uncommon)
There you go again, those reinforced double negatives clarified by another negative[:D]
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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Bradley Grainger said:
"Applications should be installed to Program Files or the user’s AppData folder by default." While Program Files is listed first, the user's AppData folder is also an acceptable default.
Bradley, thanks for weighing in on this. If you peruse the MS whitepaper Namespace Usage Guidelines for the Windows Vista File System, you'll see this section which spells out how the directories in question should be used:
Windows Vista provides specific locations in the file system to store programs and software components, application data that is shared between all users on a computer, and application data that is specific to a user. These locations are, respectively:
- C:\Program Files
Storage location for programs and software components. - Users should not store any user data or application data here because of the security permissions configured for this folder. Standard users do not have rights to write data to this location.
Storage location for application data that is to be shared between all users on that computer.
C:\Users\<username>\AppData:
Storage location for per-user application data that is exclusive to a user and should not be shared with any other user on that computer.
The AppData location itself has a further hierarchy below it to differentiate computer-dependent application data from computer-independent application data. This hierarchy is discussed in detail in the next section.
"C:\Program Files\" is the storage location for programs and software components, not AppData. AppData is used for per-user data and that is what it is inteneded for. Installing an entire application lock, stock and barrel into AppData is decidedly non-standard and why the vast majority of software companies do *not* install here because they know that they will be deviating from well-established practice. When a software company makes a decision to follow this highly irregular installation path, there are only two reasons for it:
Lack of the technical know-how to bypass the engineering involved with the separation of End-user data and Application-managed data (a very important paradigm), to obviate the need for Administrator membership in order to install, and to avoid the problems inherent with writing into "Program Files" when the OS is > than WinXP.
If this was Logos' reason, then they have unintentionally rendered their software useless for families who share a computer for the reasons spelled out in detail within this thread by me in an earlier post.
To prevent more than a single user using the software on one machine.
If this was the case, please see 1.1 above and replace 'unintentionally' with 'intentionally.'
There's a wonderful quip I picked up some years back from a movie called The Outlaw Josey Wales (I'll paraphrase here, because the original is somewhat more vulgar):
"Don't urinate on my back and tell me it's rainin'."
If Logos took path 2 above, fine, that's their choice, but please don't try to convince me that it's either a) standard or b) for my benefit.
Thanks for your feedback,
MattSpecs:
Windows 7 x64
Quad Xeon 2.83 GHz x2
16GB RAM
Nvidia 285 GTX 1GB VRAM
Logos 4.1 Platinum, SR-3, indexed0 - C:\Program Files
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Bryan Smith said:
I'm amazed at the number of unofficial Logos spokespersons, armchair lawyers, armchair DRM/copyright law experts, and judges of men's hearts that have popped up in this thread.
Hmm, while I consider myself neither an expert in DRM nor copyright law, I do have a fairly large investment in digital media of many kinds. That and being involved in All Things Geek [:)] on a day-to-day basis means I am aware of and have a stake in such trends. And has been pointed out already, this is a discussion forum and I have merely added my opinions (none of which promote violating the EULA.)
Larry
AKA WillyBurger
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There are many email clients which provides synchronization for eg hotmail
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ronald eddy said:
There are many email clients which provides synchronization for eg hotmail
Ronald
You seem to be replying to a post on page 1 (out of 5) of an old thread, so you need to Quote the text to which you are responding ie select the Quote button (or select the parts that apply and then the Quote button ).
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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Perhaps this question/comment is in the wrong area... but I was looking for advice. My wife has her own copy of Logos, albeit, a reduced install that has just the things she wants. I have a rather complete install based on my needs. We have two separate email accounts and passwords, two seperate serial codes when we registered (obviously). We don't share books and don't want to (across the two installs, I mean). However, sometimes the computer gets confused. Her account grabs my information or my account grabs her... then I need to call in and Logos customer services sets it right again.
My question: If anyone else has two separate Logos accounts for two separate users on one computer, is there a way to force a Log in screen to change user log-in or is there a way to set things back to normal if they the two accounts get confused?
Thanks.
JJ
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Does it help if you each have your own account and login separately on your operating system?
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JJ Miller said:
My wife has her own copy of Logos, albeit, a reduced install that has just the things she wants. I have a rather complete install based on my needs. We have two separate email accounts and passwords, two seperate serial codes when we registered (obviously). We don't share books and don't want to (across the two installs, I mean). However, sometimes the computer gets confused. Her account grabs my information or my account grabs her... then I need to call in and Logos customer services sets it right again.
This is very intriguing to me. I can not answer your question because my wife has her small Logos (Bible Study package) on her own netbook while my large Logos (Portfolio) resides on my laptop. We have a static ip address that frequently confuses our ISP when we are both online at the same time . But we have never had Logos sync-ing get mixed up like that. I'm betting it has something to do with Windows 7. You may be ahead getting your wife her own computer.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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JJ Miller said:
My question: If anyone else has two separate Logos accounts for two separate users on one computer, is there a way to force a Log in screen to change user log-in or is there a way to set things back to normal if they the two accounts get confused?
I'm not certain how the accounts get confused, so exactly what information is being "grabbed"? Is it possible that you have logged into each other's Logos account by accident eg. you started L4 and used L4 but it was in your wife's computer account?
If you start L4 whilst holding down the Ctrl key you will get a Sign-in dialog box which will show you the current Logos user id and you can change it. But that won't necessarily solve the problem and it could definitely create another one, so just note the Id that is displayed and report back here.
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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Jeremy: That is the problem. The two accounts (separate accounts) get confused on the one PC.
Matthew: Yes, having an additional PC would help, but that wasn't what my post was asking. Thanks.
Dave: Thanks for your information. We will try using the Ctrl Key log in method next time this happens and see if that resolves it. I am sorry, I am not sure why they the two separate accounts get confused, since they have separate logins... but what happens is that all the books for one account shows up in the other... for instance, all of a sudden my wife has access to all my books. Only once did I wake up with her library in place of mine.
Thanks for the feedback! JJ
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