Now that the sale is live, I wonder what you all think of it?
#mce_temp_url#
The numbers for the master bundle don't add up. I'd like to see a comprehensive list of its contents.
Ditto for Jack (not sure about his Navy thing though).
[^o)] Huh? [^o)]
But the issue we're talking about is apparently personal; some see a problem while others don't.
Back when the Privacy vs Sych-With-the-Cloud debate was raging, I discovered how strongly reasonable people can disagree. This is obviously another one of those times.
Except for the "SERIOUSLY?" in Vladamir's post I can agree with everything he said. I also appreciate the new perspectives I hear from others, no matter how differently I see the issue.
It could be I have been influenced by my childhood in Japan. When reading Japanese one must determine the meaning and pronunciation of Kanji by nothing more than context. Their words are ideographs and their communication by idea. So when I read a Logos ad claiming a "Retail Value" I take it more as hyperbole. Logos wants to communicate an idea to me ("This is a great price.") Once they have my attention, I check the facts ("actual selling price") and determine for myself if it is worth that price to me.
Any time somebody is trying to get money out of your wallet into their wallet, they are your economic adversary. Your mortgage company, insurance agent, grocer and all salespersons can be labeled as such. In the real world this symbiotic relationship is necessary. The trick is to make sure the deal is a win-win so both parties can continue providing for each other. I bought pizza from a non-Christian today. He cooked several good pizzas and charged me correctly according to the menu prices. If I did not like his "MSRP" I could just leave and go down the street. But with free drinks on Sunday and using a lot of coupons, my family eats very economically. [pi]
But with free drinks on Sunday and using a lot of coupons, my family eats very economically.
But, Matthew! The drinks are not REALLY free. They are lying to you. And their "Retail Prices" are dishonest and unethical. Using coupons proves this. [;)]
But with free drinks on Sunday and using a lot of coupons, my family eats very economically. But, Matthew! The drinks are not REALLY free. They are lying to you. And their "Retail Prices" are dishonest and unethical. Using coupons proves this.
But, Matthew! The drinks are not REALLY free. They are lying to you. And their "Retail Prices" are dishonest and unethical. Using coupons proves this.
Try telling that to the guy who just paid "Retail" because he did not have a coupon or dine-in for the "free" drinks.
edited for Attitude Check! I was just reminded of this post by BillS ....pray without ceasing..........
So when I read a Logos ad claiming a "Retail Value" I take it more as hyperbole. Logos wants to communicate an idea to me ("This is a great price.")
I agree!!!
Once they have my attention, I check the facts ("actual selling price") and determine for myself if it is worth that price to me.
ditto
Any time somebody is trying to get money out of your wallet into their wallet, they are your economic adversary. Your mortgage company, insurance agent, grocer and all salespersons can be labeled as such. In the real world this symbiotic relationship is necessary. The trick is to make sure the deal is a win-win so both parties can continue providing for each other.
I could not have said it better!
I agree. I'm glad Logos is continuing to put these great sales together, and I have taken advantage of several such sales in the past. But for me personally this Black Friday Sale was a disappointment. After reviewing all the books offered, I could only find two books that I would have an interest in adding that were not already in my library. I am looking forward to what the Christmas sales will offer.
I agree.
Good Morning Leon and welcome to posting in the forums. If you want to delete this duplicate posting, here is how to do that:
Go over to the top right of your post. and click on the "More" button.
This will open a drop-down menu with an "Edit" option. It is missing from the snippet because we can only edit our own posts. Wouldn't it be fun if we could edit anybody's post? Trust me. The edit option will be available for about ten hours after you first post it. If it is missing, you are either trying to edit someone else's post or it has been more than ten hours ans it is locked.
Click on "Edit" . After it opens just "Select" ( I would say "highlight" but it is not the same thing.)
You can just delete it or add to it, or correct spelling or typos.
I took this moment to share these details for anyone who may not know them. If you already did, I thank you for understanding how others may need the info. The duplicate posts are usually caused by the screen not refreshing quickly enough and we hit "post" again. The refresh delay can be as long as 3o seconds or more sometimes.
one more thing: You can always choose the "Delete" option in the drop-down menu under "More." They probably intended that as the primary way of accomplishing a delete. I just don't like it because it opens another screen asking why you want to. Then it will sit there several minutes until somebody at Logos reads your request and takes action. If the post is particularly embarrassing (as most of mine are ) the "edit" method gets it off the public forum quicker.
Imagine how difficult it would be for you to predict the future if you were in Bob's chair. The circular reality of it is that you MUST decide how best to generate revenue because the business/ministry requires a burn rate commensurate with the demands of supporting the existing platforms as well as developing new releases that add features.
Sorry, I'm a little late to this thread. I had a busy holiday weekend and didn't get into the forums much. So I haven't even read the whole thread, but I did see this post, and I agree: It is hard to predict the future. (Even if you're not in my chair!)
I hope you'll forgive a non-specific response to my quick perusal of the thread:
I appreciate the input on pricing and labeling, and will discuss it with the marketing team. Some of the issues:
The Technical: While we have pre-pub and community pricing, and many sources for products (licensed, distributed, Logos-created, public domain), we have to cram them all into the same e-commerce engine in the end. It has a limited number of price fields in the database, and we're loathe to create more, because there are 15,000+ books and each needs a value in each price field.
"Retail" to me isn't a magic word, but it is a fuzzy one. It's generally the price at which the product is intended (by some mix of manufacturer / retailer decision making, depending on the product) to be sold to consumers. Sometimes it is the "manufacturer's suggested retail price" (MSRP), which is a guideline retailers observe scrupulously for some products and not at all for others. Sometimes it is the "minimum advertised price", which a manufacturer enforces through contracts and various carrots/sticks. Sometimes it is just what some other standard-setting retailer tends to sell it for.
We try to make the "retail" price reasonable, and we try to "generally sell it" for less than that retail price. The underlying assumption here -- which is true for most of the content we sell -- is that the product is either intended to be (by the creator) or generally is (by other retailers) sold for this price, and we're offering an every-day lower sale price. Then, when we put it on "special sale" the discount drops from our "every day discount" to a bigger, better discount -- still off that retail price.
When we produce an edition of a public domain book, there may not be a current, in-print retail price. But our e-commerce engine demands multiple price points, and it feels weird to say that these books aren't "every day discounted" when the current, copyrighted titles all are. So we set a retail price that we think is comparable to other similar products, and set our "every day sale price" lower than that. (In fact, we usually do it backwards -- we have a feel for what a particular type of book sells for at retail, then we apply a similar discount.)
In the cases where a community pricing title jumps from $20 to $200, it's generally because we feel that size book / collection would be a $200 product. Community pricing is designed to give an awesome deal, and also to incentivize early action. In these cases we actually DO jump the price up after the community pricing program, so the new price isn't imagined, it's being set by us -- the manufacturer and retailer of that product. (Yes, there may still be the "retail" / "every day" price difference, as above, but most of the jump is a real jump in the real price. We do sell it at the new price, not the temporary community price that's now over.)
(And even in the case of community price titles, the "retail" is often being informed by comparison to the cost of acquiring the paper books from a used bookseller.)
We're moving into a whole new world of ebook pricing. We are already distributing some titles (as opposed to licensing them), and soon we'll be selling some under the "agency model." You can Google "agency model" for a more detailed explanation, but the bottom line is that we will be acting as a sales agent for the publisher in some cases, not as a retailer, and we won't have any control or influence over the pricing at all.
All this makes it harder for us to rename the price to "suggested value" or something like that. No one term is technically specific and accurate in every case.
As for deception, it's never our intention to deceive anyone. We're pretty transparent about how the system works, and, as evidenced by pre-pub and community pricing, we try hard to make great deals available where we can, and to put even more transparency into the process.
As for manipulation... yes, of course, we're trying to manipulate you. We want you to sign up for the pre-pub now, not wait a year or two. We want you to commit to the community pricing today so we can get the book produced. We want you to buy from us, not from Amazon.com.
We're all (personally, professionally, socially) trying, all the time, to manipulate people, to incentivize them to do the thing we think they should (or that we want them to), at the time convenient for us. We just need to constantly maintain a balance between beneficial effectiveness and malicious exploitation. That's a constant discussion for us internally here at Logos, and I appreciate all of you helping us stay on the right side through your feedback and encouragement.
-- Bob
"Retail" to me isn't a magic word, but it is a fuzzy one.
I fully appreciate that. I am a big fan of "fuzzy logic" and believe "fuzzy communication" is sometimes more accurate than trying to find a precise definition that holds true under every circumstance. If a terminology change from "Retail Price" to "Suggested Value" were implemented an explanation could be added to the FAQ page describing all the different factors that come into play in pricing. Most people do understand why a John Piper book sells for $15 while a Josephus title from Brill would cost around $100 per volume. But few understand why Zondervan titles don't get discounted much , or why they can buy third party titles in another product format cheaper than in L4. They don't understand why a single title may cost more than a whole collection that includes that single title. If there were one educational page that described the varied factors without specific contract details, it may be helpful.
As for manipulation... yes, of course, we're trying to manipulate you. We want you to sign up for the pre-pub now, not wait a year or two. We want you to commit to the community pricing today so we can get the book produced. We want you to buy from us, not from Amazon.com. -- Bob
I'm not a pastor, though I fulfill in one fashion or another at least 3 of the other four doma roles. Nevertheless, I did speak before a congregation this past weekend. Therefore I can strongly concur with Bob's comment regarding manipulation. And if you are a pastor (as a plurality if not a majority of Logos users are) you are deceiving yourself if you don't consider what you do before your congregations to be MANIPULATION as well. All perceived negative connotation aside, any sermon, teaching, etc. is blatant manipulation. You are trying to influence the lives of others, even to the point of attempting to get them to do something they are unlikely to do "naturally". All communication is manipulation. You are a manipulator.
Since I'm posting here, I will add that there is no such thing as a "fair price". There is only an agreed upon price. (Prov. 20:14) Logos has offered many resources I agreed to pay for, but I think they charge too much for many other things, so I don't open my wallet for those items. Logos could get me to hand over more of my money if they asked me what it would take to open my wallet, but they don't exactly work that way. Basically, as a Portfolio owner, I want collections that don't include Portfolio resources. If more than 5% of a collection is stuff I already have, I won't buy. It's why I didn't get the Master Collection last year. I am willing to spend that much money--even more. However, I'm not going to pay for the same stuff a second, and in some cases a third time. I consider it a matter of respect. It's why I meh'd these Black Friday collections. The big one has plenty I would like to have--and plenty I already do. For that reason my response continues to be "meh".
And if you are a pastor (as a plurality if not a majority of Logos users are) you are deceiving yourself if you don't consider what you do before your congregations to be MANIPULATION as well. All perceived negative connotation aside, any sermon, teaching, etc. is blatant manipulation.
Basically, as a Portfolio owner, I want collections that don't include Portfolio resources. If more than 5% of a collection is stuff I already have, I won't buy. It's why I didn't get the Master Collection last year. I am willing to spend that much money--even more. However, I'm not going to pay for the same stuff a second, and in some cases a third time. I consider it a matter of respect.
I remember hearing this from several users last Christmas. Praiser encouraged everyone who was able, to go for the deal by posting the detailed list. The bottom line governing my decision was not "respect" (or "self-respect".) It was solely self-centered, self-serving, greedy selfishness. Even after removing all 800 of the titles I already had, I was winning BIG by getting my 1210 new resources for $1.68 per book. I don't care if Logos thinks they came out the winner in that deal. I know I won. I would love have them to offer similar deals all the time. My very self-centered buying philosophy also prevents me from buying any of the Black Friday bundles because I do have most of them. My buying decision is governed by two questions: How much? and What do I get for my money? If I am happy with the answers, I go digging in the sofa for the money. Pride never enters the equation.
One of the things that makes Logos a unique and special company is the leadership of Bob Pritchett and the Pritchett family. They listen. They may not agree, but they do hear your concerns, and they are people of integrity. Thanks.
And if you are a pastor (as a plurality if not a majority of Logos users are) you are deceiving yourself if you don't consider what you do before your congregations to be MANIPULATION as well. All perceived negative connotation aside, any sermon, teaching, etc. is blatant manipulation. I agree but let us soften it a little by calling it persuasion. (Both have the same objective.)
I actually find the word "persuasion" to be more manipulative than the word "manipulate" is...precisely because it is trying to accomplish its purpose in a less obvious and more appealing way. I prefer be upfront in my communication. As spiritual entities, all of our communication has an impact. Words exercise spiritual force, and applied force changes things. Done deliberately and purposefully, it is manipulation. Done thoughtlessly, it is still manipulation.
That said, I would not use the terms "self-centered" or "greedy" to describe what you did (unless you are an Ayn Rand aficionado). It is possible that those words do truly describe your motivations, but I suspect (if your motivation is similar to mine) that your attempts to increase the informational fund of knowledge at your disposal (through Logos resource acquisition) has more to do with a desire to learn about God and His will. That may be self-serving, but we are COMMANDED by YHWH and Yeishuu`a to be precisely so. Obedience to God provides spectacular benefits and those benefits are a deliberate motivational tool in YHWH's arsenal. The rewards and wages are part of the mechanisms used by Him to manipulate us into right behavior. The Messiah was self-serving when He laid down His life, because it was by His odedience that He was judged worthy to receive rule, authority, power, and dominion over every name that is named and thus have all things put under His feet. (Eph. 1:21-22) That, of course, is the whole point. In YHWH's economy, selflessness IS ultimately self-serving. The most is attained by the one who gives the most. Every attempt of the Father and Son to get us to rightly respond to that dynamic is, inevitably, manipulation. I say, "Aamein for it!"
I actually find the word "persuasion" to be more manipulative than the word "manipulate" is..
and you are more like Super.Tramp than I am. [:D] What is scary to me is I find myself in agreement with you.
As spiritual entities, all of our communication has an impact. Words exercise spiritual force, and applied force changes things.
Yes, I believe so.
(unless you are an Ayn Rand aficionado)
I choose to shrug that one off. [;)] (You been spying on my reading lists?)
In YHWH's economy, selflessness IS ultimately self-serving. The most is attained by the one who gives the most. Every attempt of the Father and Son to get us to rightly respond to that dynamic is, inevitably, manipulation. I say, "Aamein for it!"
I do this with my children. I coax, goad, threaten, lure, and bribe them; to do what I truly believe is best for them.
What is scary to me is I find myself in agreement with you.
BOOOOOO!!!
[:P] I didn't realize I was so scary...
[Y] [:)]
What is scary to me is I find myself in agreement with you. BOOOOOO!!! I didn't realize I was so scary...
Face it David, you are our scapegoat around here.
Bob, not sure what to say, other than I appreciate your joining in what has been an interesting discussion. I appreciate the challenges you face in making the changes I suggested, and perhaps there are unknown (to me) logistical reasons why that doesn't work so well. I still do feel really uncomfortable with how things are labeled/priced and how percentages are calculated, but please allow me to say for the n-th time that I don't believe anyone at Logos has any intention of being deceitful. I trust in your hearts and your commitment to do what is right before the Lord. And there will always at times be some disagreement about the final decisions/conclusions, based on how God speaks to our own consciences. But we are all brothers in Christ and striving after Him to the best of our mutual understandings. Even Paul anticipated these "disputable matters"... and its okay. We can disagree, and don't need to question anyone's sincerity or heart. I can't say how strongly I appreciate you personally, your responses when you have time to share them (they are always gracious, and rich with information and a greater perspective that is very helpful), and your heart. That, even more than the phenomenal program itself, is what makes me proud to be a Logos owner and user.
Basically, as a Portfolio owner, I want collections that don't include Portfolio resources. If more than 5% of a collection is stuff I already have, I won't buy. It's why I didn't get the Master Collection last year. I am willing to spend that much money--even more. However, I'm not going to pay for the same stuff a second, and in some cases a third time. I consider it a matter of respect. It's why I meh'd these Black Friday collections.
I agree. I so really wished I didn't have to buy licenses several times over to get some of the bundled deals. I think for us long, long, long term users who have been buying Logos for years, something should be done to help out with this dynamic.
Very well spoken. When Bob speaks, things always seem much clearer.
Many of my decisions about Logos purchases (especially the ECC) are made easier by knowing the integrity of the leadership of Logos.
The sheer idiocy of pricing is that the Internet now makes everyone complicit in a race towards zero. Amazon has many used books priced at a penny. I won't ask how someone thinks you can operate that way, but apparently the sellers who do that are clueless.
I can not think of any company other than Logos that I would enter into an agreement like the EEC deal, no matter what their product. It is totally based on trust.
I can not think of any company other than Logos that I would enter into an agreement like the EEC deal,
I would probably enter such a deal with that other Mac Bible software company, but they don't offer anything like EEC.
It is totally based on trust.
And I do believe that Logos has earned my trust.
Amazon is clueless? I think not.
The sheer idiocy of pricing is that the Internet now makes everyone complicit in a race towards zero. Amazon has many used books priced at a penny. I won't ask how someone thinks you can operate that way, but apparently the sellers who do that are clueless. Amazon is clueless? I think not.
Peace and Every Blessing, Shawn! I probably need your forgiveness after this post for pointing it out; however, I just couldn't resist posting when I realised that your were responding to a post that is more than a year old! Love your passion, though! *smile*
Always Joy in the Lord!
LOL Murray, I didn't realize how old it was! I began reading posts and paid no attention to date. Thanks for pointing it out though.
