Social / community features in Logos 5 and beyond

I am really excited about the ability to share quotes from resources. One thing I find a bit frustrating with Faithlife is that I will share quotes from the Bible and it defaults to the ESV even it I am using a different translation. It would be great to have it respect my translation choice. 

I like the social features, the idea of being able to callaborate on documents. I could have used this type of thing is school.

As a concession to "the missionary with the solar-powered laptop and no Internet connection", and to people who still want an isolated stand-alone software package, you can run the software with Internet access turned off. (It's becoming more and more difficult to maintain this functionality, but we'll try to keep it as long as we can.)

Bob,

PLEASE continue to allow Logos to function without being connected to the Internet.  I don't mind being connected for updates, resource purchases, syncing, etc., but there are many times that I am not connected to the Internet.  I don't want to HAVE to be online for Logos to function.  This is really an important issue for me.

Thanks,

Ron

We modeled our star rating for resources ... But if you don't rate something, by default you see the "community" rating. ...

Community tags supplement your own tags, and are intended to harness the "community" wisdom about a particular resource...

(Both of these features were fully designed for Logos 4, but didn't make the development cutoff. When we finally shipped them in Logos 5 -- using the specs written for Logos 4 -- many users had already adopted their own meaning/conventions for tags and star ratings, and found the community data a distraction. We will be implementing a way to turn them off if you don't want to see this community info.)

On a quick read of  your post this was what I was really looking for. Thank you.

But I would also ask you include a simple way to turn off Popular Highlights, Popular Tags which are equally distracting, and also include Community Notes together with any other shared/mined data you may be planning to introduce  (simple does not mean hunting for a resource to disable the information).

Thanks for the update and comments – they let us get a hint of where you’re going

“”We tracked which books were opened””

Did you track which books were hit in the search – often the search summary gives all the data we need for the answer we are looking for?  [So they might have been used without being opened]

“”We will be implementing a way to turn them off if you don't want to see this community info.””

Thanks 

“”"users like you"””

Good luck – I am one of a kind – I went from Platinum 4 to Platinum 5 and added Capstone. And when I do a major research I want to know what everybody says and every side of the topic. 

"denomination"

There are times when I don’t want “users like” me – I want to know what members of some other “denomination” recommend.  Will changing our “denomination” setting change what we see? [Or will what we see be determined by our past  “”history””] 

“”Popular highlights “”    need a global off switch – I am not sure I want someone else to show me where the important parts are.    

I hope this overview is helpful, and that you can appreciate the value that these social / community features add to the Logos platform, and hopefully to your study and investment as well.

Peace, Bob!            Yes!      Very helpful indeed!           Very much appreciated.     Some of these concepts and "directions" are truly monumental.  You've done well with this overview.  Basically this individual  (me!   *smile* ) concurs and trusts you and your people (colleagues? collaborators? team-mates? staff?)

I must say, Bob!  You have assembled and co-ordinated such a wonderful and amazing group of men and women who are part of the Logos Mission!  Well-done!                                    Vaya Con Dios!                                          and ...               Always Joy in the Lord!

We hope to enable some forms of "community" data editing -- and even remote editorial work for compensation. For example, Logos 5 has some data sets that were created by tagging the biblical text -- we even used our own highlighting tool for some of the work. With collaborative documents, users could choose to join a tagging project on a text that Logos might not otherwise get to. Imagine if referent analysis, speaker labels, word senses, and clause searching were available for the Apostolic Fathers, Josephus, Philo, and all of the Perseus Project. These collaborative/social documents could help us distribute the workload over many contributors, track who made what contribution, and even pay for contributions in Logos credit.

[Y]

Bob,

I pray that the 'Social / community features in Logos 5 and beyond' will be fully Implemented in a different version of Logos. I've invested about $5,000 dollars in Logos and do not support nor want this 'Social / community' direction. If, however, the new design will be implemented in Logos 5, I need to re-think not only the $1,200 dollars pre-pub orders I'm waiting for, but also any future orders.

Thomas

Thanks for the full post, Bob (and for the unexpected mention!). I think only two things are required for meet the vast majority of users' concerns:

1. Making sure that having "Send Feedback" set to "None" means that no tracking in done within the desktop app (no search results collected, no highlighting aggregated, and so on). IMO this setting should also mean that a user with this setting should not have their synced documents included in any analysis.
2. Allow users to turn of the receiving (or at least the displaying) of community data, without turning off the syncing of their own data. This includes Faithlife Community notes, community ratings/tags, popular highlighting, etc.

I confess I see no need of either of those things myself (the former because I trust you and want Logos to improve, the latter because I can switch them off individually or ignore them), but I think I understand why others might want them.

The coarse grained control is turning off "Use Internet" in the Program Settings. The more fine-grained controls are still being decided on, and will reflect your input.

Bob, this is something that I and others have been asking for some time, and I want to say thanks.

 I doubt that you remember this, but I am in communication with my representatives and senators concerning consumer's privacy.  And this is what I have been saying that consumers need to have.

 Now, it is not likely that you are thinking of fine-grained controls the same way that I am thinking of fine-grained controls.  I believe controls should be very very very very very fine.  For an example, I believe that I should have a flag for each note to indicate if it should be synced to your server or not.  The same is true when it comes to our prayer requests and everything else.

 I also believe that I should be able to exempt my information from being used in your decision process.  I believe my privacy is more important than your bottom line, and any mining my data is an invasion of my privacy without my approval.

 Again, I wanted to say thanks for providing more security controls in the future.

Hi Bob,

Thanks for such detail and clarity on the topic.

Some things come along with being web-based.

I appreciate this, and I have no problem in Logos not only knowing what my purchases are (as is normal for any vendor), but I also don't mind feedback of a fair degree of usage of the program that helps Logos develop and more appropriately meet and exceed user expectations/needs. 

One of my concerns is that if Logos was a new program just introduced onto the market, it would be expected (if not unthinkable not to) that the developer would provide the explicit option for the user to choose whether or not to participate in data collection or feedback (for statistical analysis, or other purposes e.g. to generate community data).  As noted on the forum elsewhere, there is some wording in the 'Online Backup' section of the EULA which loosely covers statistical analysis, and states that user's data will not be shared without their permission. But it is not explicit or clear enough, especially with respect to using users' data for other purposes such as to generate community data (although admittedly 'popular highlights' is a pretty tame use of such data).  But the main thing is that users don't have an option whether to participate or not in their data or statisics being used by Logos.  At present, the only workaround is to turn off internet usage, which is not very practical in general.  In principle, I'm not against using users' data for generating statistics or even community
data at times (e.g. popular highlights), but I would simply like the choice as to
whether to do so, or not. 

We are very careful and respectful of
individual privacy, and we'll be offering some controls/options

But I'm pleased to read this, and look forward to seeing what the options/controls will be.

Personally, I don't mind the vast majority of usage statistics (e.g. what books I open, what I right-click on etc) being gathered, and would allow such if I had the option.  But I am concerned at having no option with what I consider to be personal 'value added' data that is over and above my statistically-interesting usage of the application.  At a minumum, this includes all 'Documents' (Prayer lists, Notes, Clippings, etc) which contain some very confidential information that I would not like to be viewed or used for any purposes.  But it also includes other data such as Guides which can contain notes, or possibly even text that is marked up as significant (highlighting).  

While the EULA tells us "Do not store highly confidential information in the software", many users would consider that their Prayer Lists, or Notes for research purposes, come under this description.  There seems therefore to be an inherent conflict between what the program allows us to do, and what it tells us we should not do in order to maintain confidentiality.  I don't mind syncing for online backup purposes (although I can
imagine those in persecuted countries being concerned about digital eavesdropping, unless it is
encrypted while being transferred), but I consider not having a choice on the use of such data to be a
different thing entirely.  I hope I don't sound alarmist on this, since I'm not suggesting that Logos has used, or would use, such data in ways that would cause significant concern for users.  I just think that it would be good to have options on confidentiality, and clarity on such matters.

The coarse grained control is turning off "Use Internet" in the Program Settings. The more fine-grained controls are still being decided on, and will reflect your input.

I've posted here because you're looking for input.  Here are some options I would be happy with.  While one option is a global 'Send Feedback' option of On or Off, which would disable sync etc, but still allow resource downloads and updates, multiple options could be offered such as;

1. Allow feedback on 'basic program usage' (e.g. what resources are used, what is right-clicked etc.
2. Allow sync of 'user generated data' (Documents, Guides, etc.) for backup purposes only.  (While this would normally be enabled/disabled per user account accross all devices, it might be helpful at times to have it as an option on a per device basis, e.g. when many users of the family iPad could see confidential Prayer Lists, a user might like sync enabled on their PC but disabled on their iPad.  But that is a very, very, minor issue in comparison to having the option to sync or not at all.  I mention it to see what others think on this.)
3. Allow analysis and anonymised use of the contents of 'user generated data' e.g. to generate community data (such as popular highlights.

The display of community data doesn't concern me too much, as it is not a privacy issue, but it would be handy to have a global option as to whether to display that or not.

I look forward to seeing what the options/controls will be.  Thanks for expanding the conversation and looking for input on the topic.

Bob,

Thank you so much for sharing this information. I'd like to politely add my input to what some others have posted. 

1. Please give us a way to opt-out of all community features in the product. I can see that some might enjoy those features and understand them, but there are many of us who do not need/want this kind of functionality in the website. There should be a way for us to sync our documents to use them on mobile devices without having to use other community features.

2. Please give us a way to opt-out of data collection. I understand the positive side of it for the company and the benefits you gain from it. I also know a lot of us are uncomfortable with intentional, intricate data collection as we use Logos. Yes, I know that Google and many others attempt to be even more invasive. Still, we should have a way to opt out. Right now every company is trying to track everything I do and it's uncomfortable. I don't want my every step observed in Logos though I have no ill will against the company.

3. I'm not entirely clear why you anticipate it being nearly impossible to use Logos in the future without the internet. I can completely understand if you meant that some features would require the internet, but I do not see why the application should require the internet. For example, iTunes was one of the first desktop applications to be deeply connected to the internet, but it lets me disable music recommendations and use my local music all day long without any internet connection. I can choose to use the internet based features or just use my local library. I would hope Logos would remain the same way, not just for the "missionary without internet" but for many of us who many not want be wired every second of our lives. This is already a frustration in the iOS app where certain things won't work unless I have an internet connection. Please don't cripple Logos in the same way.

Thanks for your openness about the direction of Logos.

I see, well I would like to be in-between the denominations Anabaptists and RCC, and be able to say also that I'm critical.

Our hope is that we get enough data -- using voluntarily provided info like "denomination", and sales data like "what books you specifically purchased" -- that we could give you a star rating from "users like you", and weight the community tags in the same way. So a commentary set labeled 5 stars and tagged "reliable" by users of one denomination, say, would be reported that way to others of that denomination who bought similar resources, but might be rated "3 stars" and tagged "conservative" to users of another denomination who had purchased different resources. (The rating would probably differ, but you'd probably see all the tags -- they'd just be different sizes for different users.)

Thank you for all the thoughtful feedback. Some further thoughts:

We don't plan to take away the ability to read books offline without the Internet, and we haven't disabled Logos 3 or 4 or your ability to use older versions of the software. Some future new features, though, will need the web -- the data will be there, and won't fit locally. 

If you have information / data / comments that would cause enormous damage if disclosed, or risk your freedom in an oppressive country, do not put it on a computer. I don't mean don't put it in Logos, I mean don't put it in digital form, on any device, anywhere. There's no adequate digital protection, and you should plan for everything you type to be disclosed. Someday people will, if only for idle entertainment purposes, write software that you can plug a thrown-away laptop or hard drive into and upload it all to a massive search engine in the cloud. This isn't a "Logos-specific" issue. This is common sense. And your biggest risk isn't even our server being hacked -- it's a trojan, a virus, a key-logger, losing your smart phone, walking away from your logged-in computer someone else has physical access to, etc.

The "I have confidential stuff in my notes" theme is a red herring. If it's that secret, you shouldn't type it into your computer -- in any application. Just ask the now-former director of the CIA -- someone who ought to know how to keep a secret. You don't know enough / can't do enough to keep a digital secret.

Again, I'm not saying this as an excuse for why you shouldn't care about Logos' cloud-based backup, statistical data mining, etc. This is just general good advice.

With that said, we are listening and will improve our controls here. But I do think we're making a mountain out of a mole hill; if you use a credit card, shop in a store with surveillance cameras, have a driver's license and car with a license plate, have a bank account, use the Internet, or visit any licensed healthcare professional, you are being tracked far more, about far more personal things than anything Logos is doing. This isn't an excuse that we shouldn't care about your concerns -- we should -- but I feel like threats to stop doing business with us over this are a little unreasonable. We're at least talking to you about it! Your grocery store didn't ask you before data mining transactions (even cash transactions!) to learn that people who buy peanut butter also buy jelly and bread, and you probably didn't care.

In other words, unless you used a multi-tier anonymizing VPN system to post your objections here, (or, better yet, walked up to me on the street wearing dark glasses and a hat without carrying a cell phone and whispered them in my ear), you've got bigger privacy issues to worry about than Logos... :-)

One more future feature that touches on this:

We hope to offer some "all you can eat" pricing models in the future. Much like Netflix, where for $9 you can watch an unlimited number of videos each month from a large pool of content, we'd like to offer a subset of our books in an "all you can read" subscription. To pay royalties to the copyright holders, though, we need to know how much each resource is used. (Copyright holders want to know that if their content is the most used, they get the most royalties. Books in the pool that don't get read in a month don't get royalties that month.) We need some stats collection in order to deliver this feature, and you couldn't participate in this without your stats being recorded.

P.S. Please don't walk up and whisper at me on the street. It would freak me out... :-)

Dear Bob

Thank you again for stepping in and providing more feedback and comments on this topic. I do have some comments:

When you use a product that's delivered via a web site, there are certain assumptions you can safely make about what's being stored on the web servers: everything.

Every click, page view, search, IP address, time of visit, and bit of information typed into the site is stored. At a minimum, the standard "web log" functionality of the web server (standard since the first days of the web) is recording most of this info for every page view

There really needs to be made clear the distinction between information such as logs which are recorded on web servers as a result of people browsing a website anonymously where there is usually, and rightly, no Personally Identifying Information (PII) being (able to be) stored; and information as to what users do on their own computers which, obviously, will include Personally Identifying Information.

Logos has, if not the right, then the ability, as the server system belongs to them, to collect information about how I interact with Logos' web servers via a web browser. It does not — automatically — have the right to reach into my computer and collect private and personally identifying information of any manner.

and, since the entire site/application is on a remote server, all the information you type / enter is stored there, too.

I'm sorry, but that simply is not factually correct. Who in your organisation is telling you that? Logos 5 is not a web application — as in a HTML web browser based application, it is not a 'Software as a service (SaaS) application — it is a local desktop (runs on user's computer) application — which is web enabled. There is a very big, and significant, difference.

What… are you saying that the entire Logos 5 application runs on your servers and every keystroke I enter is recorded on your servers? Not correct. Logos may be trapping and recording everything I do and sending it to Logos servers (and this is something I want clarified by Logos) but it is not doing it via a SaaS design, it is (is it?) doing it via saving everything locally and 'phoning home'.

But it seems people are sometimes surprised, and even upset, to find out that desktop applications are now recording and reporting similar information.

You simply cannot equate anonymous web browsing with private use of a computer, it surprises and alarms me that you make statements like that. Again...

Logos has, if not the right, then the ability as the server system belongs to them, to collect information about how I interact with Logos' web servers. It does not — automatically — have the right to reach into my computer and collect private and personally identifying information of any manner.

I am going to give you a fictional example (obviously this does not refer to you in reality):

Let's say that someone, from your home Internet IP address, browses an online sex store and orders a sex toy. Obviously the web server is going to record in its logs the fact that a computer — at your Internet IP address — has accessed the server. The person browsing can't do anything about that, anyway the information has no PII information stored in it. That is very different from the purchased sex toy having some recording device surreptitiously embedded in it which records all information about — how it is used, and how often, and when (to improve the product naturally) and which then uploads that information back to the manufacturer along with using WiFi location sensing to do geolocation to cross-reference it back to a purchaser. Is that OK? The company simply wants to improve their product, they have a right to so don't they?

I believe we would all obviously say no — and I use this (shocking to Christians) example to deliberately shock us all out of complacency on the whole question of privacy. Also BTW, the person browsing the sex store from your Internet IP address… it was the next door neighbour who had hacked into your WiFi.

As a concession to "the missionary with the solar-powered laptop and no Internet connection", and to people who still want an isolated stand-alone software package, you can run the software with Internet access turned off. (It's becoming more and more difficult to maintain this functionality, but we'll try to keep it as long as we can.)

Why? Once someone has downloaded (or used a DVD) and installed Logos 5 and is using it, why must it phone home? What functionality is limited — apart from community features — in their use of the product if the application does not have a constantly open Internet link to Logos' servers? Logos 5 is not an… online gaming program… which must have a constantly connected Internet connection to function. It is a Bible study program (with great features - no one is saying otherwise) for, primarily, personal Bible study. Put another way, if a person's Internet connection went down they could still use Logos 5 for the purpose for which it is marketed, sold and purchased — that is Bible study. However if the software constantly crashes then it is not fulfilling the purpose for which it is marketed, sold and purchased.

Also, again, there needs to be made the distinction between the application doing (beneficial to the user) things like:

a) checking for new software/resources on startup; saving documents and layouts 

versus

b) constantly uploading (in real time?) everything the user is doing, extending now beyond statistical use, to specific informational use.

Option a) simply requires occasional Internet connections between the application and Logos servers.

On the point of the Logos software gathering information and Internet use can I please have clarification between these two settings:

1) Send Feedback — and within feedback the differences between All; Anonymous & None

2) Use Internet — especially what does "various features" mean?

It seems to me that you are inextricably linking the two options — can't, aren't they already, mutually exclusive? I would see the information gathering part being in 'feedback' and the user benefit functions being in 'Use Internet'.

Also, with respect to where information is anonymised, if it is, is it anonymised on the Logos user's machine or once it gets to Logos' servers? 

What impact does all this Internet connectivity to Logos' servers have to the users' Logos application? I ask this because in the process of helping fellow Logos users on the forum and looking at log files I see a number of connection issues to Logos servers (not clear if it is on the users' side or Logos side) resulting sometimes even in the application crashing — which is obviously not desirable or welcome.

I sort of get the feeling that you are saying, to paraphrase, "well we are already gathering, and using, heaps of private and personal information on you already — you'll just have to live with it." Actually we don't.

Logos really needs to declare where it stands with respect to user privacy issues:

— on the side of entities like Google / Facebook / online advertisers whose stated aim is to gather as much Personally Identifying Information on people as possible, often illegally, or

— on the side of entities who have a basic principle & position of respecting people's privacy and using those principles as a 'guiding light' when deciding how to interact with and use customers' personal information.

Also Logos needs to be very careful with its' privacy position with regards European users. The European Union is not as lax as the US with respect to various aspects of computers, the Internet and privacy — as companies like Google and Facebook have found out to their financial discomfort.

and we follow best practices like not storing your password at all. (That's why our CS reps can't tell or email your password, only reset it -- we literally don't have access to it.)

Logos has to store something on passwords, otherwise users could not log in. What I believe you mean is, following common computing practices, you don't store the actual password string but a hash of the password — just to be precise.

As a concession to "the missionary with the solar-powered laptop and no Internet connection", and to people who still want an isolated stand-alone software package, you can run the software with Internet access turned off. (It's becoming more and more difficult to maintain this functionality, but we'll try to keep it as long as we can.)

I wished this was more than just a 'concession'. I wished it was part of the vision of Logos.  

For some of those who are taking the Gospel out, they're probably about 10 years behind the rest of the world internet connectivity wise. The people who go to places like this accept it as part of the job. It's what they sign up for and in general they don't expect the world to cater to them. They know they often straddle two worlds in many areas... one of them being technology. They know the developed world can't wait up for them and would not expect a company like Logos to hurt its ability to innovate and to bless the church at large. However, it would be nice if it would be than a concession.  It would be nice if it was a vision to do what it can without hurting its business model to support those in these sorts of situations.

When big resource updates in the early days of Logos 4 were being rolled out on things like the interlinears, it killed us.  The problem was that the software worked just fine, but if you needed to buy a small resource of 20mb, you could not do so until you downloaded all the updates. It was physically impossible to leave your computer hooked up for enough weeks and months to get them all. Myself and a few others pleaded for regular DVD media updates. After time we got updates, but the weeks it took after they were released to get out here was an eternity when all we needed was a 20mb book. Am I complaining? No, it is a cost that comes with the job.

In the plus column, even in Africa we have seen significant changes in the last five years with internet connectivity. Huge changes. This will continue to happen and some of this is becoming less and less of an issue. Still problematic, still expensive, still lots of places you can't get connectivity, but to be able to get the latest resources for a project is so worth it. So I would not want to go back.  (Even while typing this post, my internet connection has completely failed. I'll have to copy and save my message offline for posting later)  I am finding that I run Logos 5 more and more offline because I think it gets a bit stroppy when it has a number of failed attempts to sync with our poor internet.

On that note, the only thing I would plea is that as long as Logos sees the possibility to continue to extend this concession to the missionary with the solar panel, that it pays close attention to the crash logs they submit from these scenarios to test Logos concepts and software code.  If you run a private beta, ask a few to participate. What works well in the lab and in the US, is totally different here. I would argue if your code will hold up here, it will hold up anywhere... 

One thing for the record though... we don't use solar panels. We use mice powered generators and we're still using Intel 8088 turbo processors with MSDOS 5.0.  We just got a 2400 baud modem and are loving the new speeds over the old 300 we just retired!  

Seriously, God bless you guys and all that you are doing for the church.  You are popularizing Bible software and this can only be a good thing for all. We certainly have some cool tools for Bible study and I am deep gratitude for the ability to carry a reference library with me. It is one of the most precious things I own.

At the same time, though, we are committed to being a web-based, data-driven platform. We are no longer designing a stand-alone, isolated desktop application. Some planned features will require access to databases too large to deliver to user devices; you'll need web access to use them. We will be listening to our users, responding to their feedback and concerns, but like other web-based platforms, we will not necessarily be offering control over every individual setting. Some things come along with being web-based.

I understand that some planned functionality may need to access servers. But why should this be two-way traffic (other than the request / response which off course you would log as per any server).

But what I do locally, what I highlight, what notes I write, what books I'm reading locally - that's what the "Send Feedback" set to none should block if it is something I am concerned about.

For the record, I'm not particularly into the community aspects and would prefer R&D spent on more useful stuff for real bible stuidy (like improvement of notes engine).

In fact the whole Web community stuff (facebook "likes", twitter feeds etc - so prized recently by Logos) surely is playing to the wrong demographic for Logos users (unless there are loads of female teenage pastors!  [;)])

I hope this overview is helpful, and that you can appreciate the value that these social / community features add to the Logos platform, and hopefully to your study and investment as well.

Thank you for sharing the direction of travel regarding social/community features. 

I personally find much of what you have announced exciting and I can really see a value in greater opportunities for online sharing and collaboration. I am particularly excited with regards to the prospect of the 'all you can read' subscription model.

I also appreciate the value of aggregated data to the continuing success of Logos the business and the development of Logos software.

I personally have no concerns with regards to privacy or confidentiality. I do not keep any information in Logos which I would consider to be highly sensitive or confidential. Having said this, Emile and Donovan have eloquently shared some of the serious concerns and obstacles facing missionaries (with regards to security and accessibility). I am confident that you will continue to listen to and consider their concerns and needs. 

And I agree with Mark that an easily executed opt out should be made available to those who do not wish to participate.

I think most posters on this thread are talking about philosophical or "in principle" objections, while Bob is talking about reality and specific uses of data-mining or tracking of Logos application' use. I used to be in the first camp, but when I looked at what Bob was saying, I have no objection to them improving the software for the million+ users they have:

These stats have led to actual improvements in our business and software

the software did improve, did it not?

We tracked what percentage of users were on what operating system. This helped us know when we could drop support for old versions of Windows or Mac OS X, affecting few users and allowing us to allocate resources to new work instead of old OS support.

There is absolutely no skin off my nose for LOGOS to know that I run Windows 7. I am glad that they drop support of legacy OS in order to innovate AND to make the software run better.

We tracked what percentage of users running
the software each day had upgraded to a new version. It's useful to know
when 80% of daily users are running Logos 5 -- we can stop promoting
the upgrade so heavily. :-)

I am so glad they are doing it! It was such a pain to upgrade, or buy a resource they were "heavily" (HUGE UNDERSTATEMENT) promoting and continue to be nagged about it for weeks to come. Well done.

We tracked search queries. This is such a massive amount of info that the last time we decided to do some serious analysis on search queries we limited it to a single month. We sorted queries by frequency and looked to see how many used boolean operators, could not be parsed by the query engine, etc. We even just browsed them. (The document was a list of queries with counts -- no user identities.) From looking at a large aggregation of search queries we learned that boolean operators aren't used much, and were more likely to mess up a query than be used correctly. This led to the use of all-caps AND and OR as operators, reducing the chance that users would unintentionally include an "and" or "or" that messed up a query that was a phrase. We also saw people were searching for the names of holidays, like "Mothers' Day", which fed into our decision to develop the Preaching Themes database, which is used to tag resources -- and includes Mothers' Day and other holidays as themes.

what exactly are you opposed to from the privacy standpoint in the SPECIFIC tracking examples referenced by Bob? As a missionary, how am I in danger if LOGOS data-mines my usage in this way? I agree with Bob - most of the arguments on this thread are philosophical, not practical.

Logos collects stats on the use of the software. At various times we've collected all kinds of different stats; at the moment Logos 5 collects less information than earlier versions, but we expect to hook up more reporting in the future.

[...]

We tracked search queries. [...]

We tracked which dialog boxes were used. [...]

We tracked which books were opened. [...]

These stats, when aggregated, offer value to Logos and help us make a better product. Many of them also feed back into features that benefit users:

One of the potential issues/pitfalls I see with 'data mining' is what I would call 'pushing down to the lowest common denominator' or the race to mediocracy . I'm sure most of us would be familiar with one of the most abused statistical constructs — the old bell curve. It is unfortunately axiomatic that given a large enough population sampling, if one plots a curve of anything, one will end up with one of these.

Like any tool this can be used, or misused, or even abused.

Here's my point:

If there is a complex (but powerful) feature or function in a software package like Logos which data mining shows is used infrequently and/or ineffectively should the software company cut it out? After all, data mining clearly shows that it is not being used very much, and most of those people who do use it don't use it well/properly — it's right up there on the far side of the bell curve.

So should we follow one train of logic, go for the 95% and chop it off, or, should we aim higher and apply more resources to that top 3-5%, for example with more information and training. The concern I have is that if the top 3-5% is chopped off what will eventually happen is that the bell curve will just regain its shape and move to the left — the race to mediocracy.

I have recently become interested in the 'Syntax Search' feature in Logos which I saw initially in the Logos 'Learn to Use Greek and Hebrew' video training. I don't see much mentioned about it in the usual places (forum etc.). I have the MP Seminars' 'Logos Bible Software Training Manual', a paid training documentation. Syntax Search gets a one line mention on page 2 of Volume 1 — that's it. I see from querying the forums that it is tricky to learn and master — fair to say it's a top 3-5% user feature. Data mining says it is not used much — shall we chop it off? Dave Hooten might have something to say about that! And, of course, the product will be the poorer.

I believe you will see my point — slavishly and unthinkingly following where data mining leads may end up undermining the edifice.

Hi Bob,

To go back to the bottom line of your opening post...

I hope this overview is helpful, and that you can appreciate the value that these social / community features add to the Logos platform, and hopefully to your study and investment as well.

In the end it is a question of value, and as you can tell from this thread, not everyone values the same things. That's why, from a consumer's point of view, it is great to have choice. Some of us see very little value in the social / community features. We would very much like to opt out (or, better, not opt in).

You are not alone, though, in trying to push the social / community thing in software. For example, Apple recently released iTunes 11, which expands some of its iCloud features, including marking the spot you left off in your last movie and syncing that to all your devices so you can start watching on your iPad right where you left off on your iMac. In the iTunes Store, they advertise, "Good recommendations are easy to come by, thanks to In the Store picks. Just select an album, artist, or genre you like, and iTunes will suggest similar music you might never have found on your own." Much of this is similar to what you have said you are or are wanting to do with Logos--Apple's doing it with music; Logos is doing it with books.

But there is one BIG difference--Apple doesn't force me to participate. In the preference settings there are a number of user-controlled options like, "Share details about your library with Apple".

On my computer, that box is not checked.

Not everyone perceives value the same. Please give us choice.

Thank you.

Paul

Sigh... all this endless discussion.

Who was it who said "You can please some of the people some of the time, all of the people some of the time, some of the people all of the time, but you can never please all of the people all of the time."?? Some guy called Abe Lincoln...

This is the bottom line:

a) Logos will never please everyone

b) The discussion pro & con is moot with respect to the European Union, because (and I don't have chapter and verse, and am not going to waste time looking for it) the EU has privacy laws protecting citizens. And it doesn't matter two hoots if the Logos EULA is "governed by the laws of the State of Washington, USA".  So what. Sorry guys, but the USA is not the center of the world. If Logos sells a product to EU citizens without privacy controls — and, worse, states that it is going to do so regardless — then good luck with that. I don't believe that Logos is bigger than companies like.... oh what's their names.... Google, Facebook, Apple. And stating in an EULA that Logos intends to do data mining, and thinking that because it is written in an EULA that will excuse them from not providing privacy controls, and therefore they will be free from any legal risk won't wash either — because EU laws (as I understand) don't allow companies to 'EULA away' end users' rights.

So clearly the only practical and sensible option is to:

a) put a big red switch in Preferences along the lines of 'Share information' - YES / NO (and no, M.J., it's no big deal to code it)

b) the setting would have to be, by default, "NO". Again the guideline rule in the EU is people have to 'opt in', not be tricked into being opted in by default and having to explicitly 'opt out'.

c) there should be something clearly stated during installation etc. about data mining and privacy.

and then move on — please!  There are enough issues/problems etc. with the software that are much more important for everyone to be investing time in — like having a stable product that we don't have to worry about blowing up and losing hours of work.

And again.. can I clearly state, for the record, that I can see benefits in there being feedback on product usage and/or data mining for 'social features', who wouldn't want to see a good tool like Logos get better?  But that does not change the reality of the requirement of user choice privacy controls. So I'm not being a Neo-Luddite or technophobe (ha, that'll be the day) and I don't wear a tinfoil hat — I just want to see things settled so other pressing issues with the platform can be dealt with.

p.s. and I am still waiting to be informed as to what is the difference between these settings:

and will the 'Data Mining' settings be part of, or extra to, the 'Send Feedback' selector.

Also Logos cannot tell users to just turn off 'Use Internet' to avoid data mining because Internet access (for getting things from Logos, not to Logos) is a necessary function for full use of the software that people have paid for. So 'Use Internet' cannot be used as a pseudo privacy switch, won't be allowed.

hi

all this sounds very interesting,

how can you even think about doing this sort of thing when you can't even get

 video resources to stream correctly ,.  I still cannot get the videos to work, 

 the product.  I am trying to get to work correctly is called The Greatest Book Series

why can't logos 5  use the videos from my dvd  why do I have to streamer them?

mick

Community tags supplement your own tags, and are intended to harness the "community" wisdom about a particular resource, helping you find things more easily and better understand your library.

Your comments are priceless.

Better understanding your library is a priority for someone like me with nearing 6,000 resources. It is my habit to tag each of my resources as I add them to my library. It would be very useful to have some way to maximally classify a resource by being able to expose some of the major themes in a resource. Sort of like an interesting words feature or to borrow an idea from Amazon kindle, x-ray the major features of the resource. This would be useful to those who search from collections something I do often. 

We're lighting up collaborative documents at http://documents.logos.com. This will eventually be enabled for almost every document type.

The "personal" use case is your being able to publish (read-only) or collaborate (shared editing and ownership) documents with any group you'd like. A pastor / professor / teacher could publish notes on a book of the Bible. Students could collaborate on a note document on a textbook. A scholar could collaborate on a highlighting project with a research assistant.

A wish I have is to collectively wrestle into submission first Greek, then Hebrew, and Latin, finally German. The community encouraged by FaithLife may be a candidate for a willing proficient anointed soul to offer this. Reading Augustine which has been suggested in another thread "Reading the Fathers," is another e.g. of the same. Again, I appreciate the time you invested into baring your ideas and explanations. 

Hi Bob,

Blessed greetings in Jesus' precious name; I pray this finds you well in our Lord!

I have two concerns, please.

1) As a missionary/teacher
and PhD student going abroad soon to a remote location for my field research, being able to use my Logos without any requirement to connect to the
Internet except occasionally for updates would be greatly appreciated as
while I'm remote (hopefully not more than 2-3 months) I'll be using a
Satellite phone at US $1 per minute which is extremely cost prohibitive to use
Logos if Internet access is required.

2) Also, I would strongly desire a way to opt out of being tracked by Logos, not because I don't trust you all, but because of the sensitive places I travel. My concern is that if you can track my Logos use it opens up a portal that could be hacked by those monitoring Internet use where I may travel. I think you understand my concerns are not reflective of Logos but are out of concern for those who monitor the Internet where I travel, and out of safety for those with whom I interact and myself.

Thank you and God bless you all!

Blessings in Christ,
David
<')))><  <')))><  <')))><  <')))><  <')))><  <')))><  <')))><

As a concession to "the missionary with the solar-powered laptop and no Internet connection", and to people who still want an isolated stand-alone software package, you can run the software with Internet access turned off. (It's becoming more and more difficult to maintain this functionality, but we'll try to keep it as long as we can.)

Whilst I agree with the sentiment that we should have the ability to opt out of our data being collected, I'm much more concerned about the direction of making Logos REQUIRE the internet.

My concern here is to ensure that everything I have already purchased continues to be accessible unimpeded even if access to Logos servers was permanently unavailable. It's concerning that you'll only TRY to maintain the ability to run without internet access. What I fear is an increasing reliance on an internet connection to Logos encroaching into the existing core functionality such that features we already enjoy and rely upon are increasingly 'enhanced' by an internet connection.

What happens if one is traveling without internet for a few weeks? Or working in a country with unreliable coverage? Or, my biggest fear of all, what happens if Logos the company, ceases to exist?

I would want to be sure that Logos s/w is happy to run without any further connection to Logos servers, i.e that it doesn't continually attempt to access the internet and become slowed down by network timeouts, that it doesn't pop up nag screens to tell me how much better my life would be if it could access Logos over the internet, etc.

If it truly does become impossible to 'maintain this functionality' then I would like to see the change postponed until a new major release of Logos so that those who share this concern can stick with the old release free from the risk.

Bob:

You need to read "The Shallows," in a bad way. I know you think community is the future --and that it's an unmitigated good.

But as a network engineer, I can tell you that once your end users start actually paying for the bandwidth they use, they're all going to reconsider the "cool factor," of all this sharing.

And as a scholar, I can paraphrase what C.S. Lewis said many years ago -- "if Shakespeare were alive today, we'd cure him by the time he left elementary school." How can you cure a Shakespeare? By putting him on Facebook. And all you're doing here is trying to make Logos the Facebook of Bible study.

Don't "try to make it a goal" to add value without a connection to the Internet, make it a priority, an absolute must. Don't "think about allowing people to turn the social pieces off," make it a priority. We live in a world where applications are now being sold to take you off of the Internet for periods of time so you can get work done.

Personally, I would suggest you not bet the future of your company on social media. These things are like pendulums. There's a nice swing going in one direction right now, but it's going to swing back. The last thing I want is for Logos to be crushed under the swing away from social media and the "share everything all the time with everyone" mentality, which would cost me an $42,000 investment.

It's not just your business you're playing with here.

Russ