Social / community features in Logos 5 and beyond

Bob Pritchett said:

Patrick S. said:

Bob thank you for all your replies and efforts, I am impressed that you and the Logos team 'suffer all the little ones (Logos users) to come to you'.

You know I could get on my (techo) soapbox and write a long post countering you on various technical & privacy points — but I don't want to. Like the empty quotes above, after a while it becomes hollow words.

I would rather, given that we are talking about a Christian company, providing Christian content to Christian consumers, remind all of us what it is we are dealing with here. We're not talking about Google/Tivo/Facebook/Amazon/a Samsung fridge, or any other entity under the power of the ruler of this age, we're talking about the words of our God. 

What is the purpose of Logos Bible Software and how should Logos be acting and what should be guiding them? Should Logos (I am sure they're not) be like Amazon remotely deleting a user books they had paid full price for (when did books move from being owned to not really owned?). Or like copyright holders of movies who 'licence', not sell, movies but who, when movies come out on new platforms (DVD to Blu-Ray), will charge you full price to 'own' the movie all over again on the new platform. Or like Google or Facebook snooping on you to get as much juicy information on you as possible to make you a more valuable commodity to them to sell to advertisers. These ones love to rule it over us, but I hope that Logos tries to follow the spirit of Matthew 20:25-28.

What is the purpose Logos Bible Software? Is it not to help Christians understand God's word and to help equip them, and, as God leads, to help spread His word? Our discussion should be focused on how to achieve that goal.

I have a niece who works for United Bible Societies, below is a picture (not of my niece [:)] I might feel old sometimes but I'm not that old [;)]) of Hanna, here is the story of how she got her first Bible in her own language...

http://translationstories.wordpress.com/2012/09/06/hannahs-hope/

my niece was there to see it.

I don't believe there is anything more to say...

Rene Atchley said:

Dominick Sela said:

Rene Atchley said:

I see no such offer of compensation from Logos for years worth of data...not even a discount.

I hope you don't use ANY search engine on the Internet - they grab a lot more data about what you are doing than Logos does! Or I hope you don't use any Microsoft products....or Adobe....or browser...or any of a number of other "non community" products. People think only Facebook, Twitter, Flickr and the like are grabbing data, but that's grossly inaccurate. Oh and don't forget your TV viewing preferences, unless you only do over the air (and they collect data too, just not as much), DirecTV, Comcast, and all the other satellite/cable providers are collecting huge amounts of preference/usage data.

The only way to avoid this, as Bob says, is turn off the Internet. It's a connected world now.

Honestly to argue that because everyone else does it justifies Logos doing it (especially as a "Christian" company) seems rather a weak argument to me. 

Not to belabor the point Rene, but I think you missed the point. I was trying to explain if people are getting all worked up about the Internet/data/mining issues that Bob is explaining that relate to Logos, what about the other two dozen programs on their computers that are doing the exact same thing, or worse. No complaints there, because people usually don't know it's going on; those companies have not been as open and forthright on their policies and proposed policies as Bob. Bob said it better than I, if this is really an issue, you likely need to get off the computer entirely and disconnect completely from the Internet.

Dominick Sela said:

Not to belabor the point Rene, but I think you missed the point. I was trying to explain if people are getting all worked up about the Internet/data/mining issues that Bob is explaining that relate to Logos, what about the other two dozen programs on their computers that are doing the exact same thing, or worse. No complaints there, because people usually don't know it's going on; those companies have not been as open and forthright on their policies and proposed policies as Bob. Bob said it better than I, if this is really an issue, you likely need to get off the computer entirely and disconnect completely from the Internet.

Not to belabor the point more [:D], but I don't agree that every program on our computers is tracking us (websites excluded) or that we should get off the computer if we don't want every program tracking us. It's not unreasonable that computer use now and in the future will have the option to not be tracked using desktop applications and a lot of us don't agree that every desktop application is or should be doing this. Our vision of the future is not the same and that's why Logos should simply provide simple options for those of us with differing views of the future. Perhaps the setting could be named "1984" [:D]

Rene Atchley said:

Mr. Pritchard has been clear about the general direction and philosophy of the Logos brand in the coming years.

Are you ever going to get his name right, or are you just doing this in a passive-aggressive manner to tweak Bob? His name is "Bob Pritchett."

Donnie

Donnie Hale said:

Rene Atchley said:

Mr. Pritchard has been clear about the general direction and philosophy of the Logos brand in the coming years.

Are you ever going to get his name right, or are you just doing this in a passive-aggressive manner to tweak Bob? His name is "Bob Pritchett."

Donnie

 

Which ever implied reason pleases you the most I suppose

Well, I've no longer got a dog in this hunt. After reading Bob's thread (this one) the other night, I thought the whole thing is positively creepy. I can't image pulling a book out of my library knowing the creepy ones are watching ... I guess recording which page I turn to, etc. I do have privacy concerns but they mainly relate to our friend who must concern himself with other intrusions of the 'kgb' type .... plain old everyday courtesy.

But I was impressed with the above plea to separate the collection issue from the display issue.  Luckily the displayers (who meet on the 3rd day of the week at 10am) probably have an inside track from the collectors (who are positively weird, can't agree on even meeting and truth be told are paranoid).

Christianity is so funny. You'd think they perceive themselves as a common group with differing needs.  One need not intensionally denying the other.

I think the "counting cars" analogy is a little flawed. I'm not asking Logos to "count" me driving in the city but then to hide the count based on my registration. I'm asking for the option for Logos not to count everywhere I go in the first place. It's a very easy fix. It doesn't require Logos to alter any databases. It simply requires the desktop application to not track and report on me.

It's not that I want Logos to collect a lot of data and then have to do a lot of work to hide it. I understand Bob's reasons why that creates a lot of extra work. Instead, just don't collect it in the first place. That's a fair and reasonable request. I think the controls here are very simple. If internet is enabled it's only a few options: Can the app check for updates? Do you want your documents synched for private use across devices? Do you want your documents included in "community" features? Do you want community content available in Logos? Do you want the application to record feedback based on your behavior?

This seems pretty simple to me unless Logos has already decided that their business model requires everyone to jump in.

Dear all: To my understanding the problem here is that we are "personalizing this thing".

Logos is not snooping on you, the person. As far as the data itself is concerned, when they compile it, you, the person, are a non-entity.

It how the Program and its features are being used. Your personal information is not part of it, your name and info are not part of it. The computer compiling and sorting the info does not know you exist.

Example: My car has to be put in the shop, they hook it up to the diagnostic computer which interfaces with the cars computer.

The mechanic and see's all the data of how the car is running, a diagnostic report is produced that shows all the information about the components of the car and, how the car was being driven when it failed: Throttle position , accelerating or coasting, or de-accelerating/braking, cornering or straight  etc, etc.

The download also goes to the manufacturer which has all of the cars "usage data" about how this car is being used/driven and how it is responding.

Thus the car maker's engineers have data in order to better make cars that match the driving habits of the average driver so as to improve the cars and gas milage reliability etc, etc.

It is a wrong idea that all of this is something new and never been done before.

It's been done though-out the history of humanity in ways appropriate to the technology of the time.

In the 70's people were paid to sit in restaurants and compile date as to how people reacted to the lay-outs of eating establishments : what tables were picked most often, how people reacted to displays, how long they stayed after eating, what is ordered most often, which way people most often faced, do they like windows or more private settings etc, etc.

Restaurant owners wanted/ want to know how many times they can 'roll" a table during peak times eta. These data sets allow them to know what they can and should be doing as far as volume.

Restaurants are designed according to these "data" and it changes as we have sociological changes within our society.

Cameras is stores are not simply for security, many are used to collect data, how people respond to to displays, how much time do they take to read a product advertisement if it is made a certain way, what traffic flow patterns do stores have if laid out in certain ways.

Everything , just about everywhere is data mined in order to maximize usability, promote sales, safety etc. etc, etc.

In every Church, staff has meeting where you talk about how people respond to this situation, these type hymns, songs, what people need to hear, what affects their lives, what the problems of society are and how we minister to that, what the needs of the children's ministry are etc, etc . We do this to meet the needs of people. In this, we are taking "data" from what is going on, we are reading people and their responses to what we are doing, we are "Data Miners".

The greatest computer ever created is the human mind and it "Data mines" all days long, some of this data going into the "fight or flight" sections of the human mind, thus, some situations automatically cause us to be on "alert" and out body instantly dumps adrenaline into our system because of the data "match" between the recorded data in our mind and the data we just saw/experienced.

We "data mined" when learning to ride a bike, drive a car, etc, etc.

We watch someone else do something and we record how they do it, we are data mining them, we are recoding data about what was done, how it was done, the best ways to do it, how to do it better.

Each time we purchase something, no matter if with cash or credit, that purchase is part of a data set.

I love to garden, farm, grow things. Every time I see a farm, garden, farmer, gardener, I start data mining. If I am talking to another gardener, I am "data mining" that person for information-data.

Yes, things can go too far, yes we can be vulnerable.

But we also have to understand that we are data miners and everyone else mines data and this is part and parcel of being Human Beings.

Human beings are the only species on the planet that can compile "data" ( experiences, knowledge etc.) and had it on generationally- nothing else on this planet does this-nothing.

We all started data mining before we were born, and after birth, none of us asked our parents, brothers and sisters, family friend, is we could record what they do, the sounds they make, the movements they make, the emotional activity they produced, yet we did indeed record all of those things and formed them into "data sets" within our minds.

All "data mining" is, by companies is, is the efforts by them of doing with computers what the human mind has always been doing and is doing right now, thats where the ideas and examples actually come from.

Yes, data can be used wrongly, yes we need options, yes there needs to be protections, yes there needs to be privacy.

However, privacy is not what people often think it is.

There is no thing as "complete privacy" unless one totally isolates oneself from the rest of humanity and even then, one's thoughts and actions are known by God- no matter what one believes.

As for "being of one mind" as Christians: This does not mean what many think it does, but that is not for discussion here, what is up for discussion is the FACT that people cannot be of "one mind" without "data mining" each other, in other words, there has to be the sharing of ideas, thoughts, beliefs, experiences and the coming to a general consensus.

Thus Bob sets up a post about the subject and interacts with the people he serves, his customers, and the response/s are what he comes to understand of the customers wants and needs.

These responses , we have all made are,,,, "data sets" .

He is not going to go to his code writers and say: well Fr. Charles wants this, and so and so wants that.

No, he is going to quickly see that xyz % of the people want fine controls, abc percent would be happy with global controls, efg% do not mind the data mining etc,etc.

We all just participated in creating a "data set" ( small set ) that helps Logos make decisions .

Our very lives are constantly creating data sets that are used in real time, space and history.

Yet, for the most part, this data is used impersonally , its the usage, not the person that is the most useful data in these cases, then things are made better for the community, which is "people".

All sociology is about "what people do, what they may do, how they did it, dis it in the past, etc". All business, to serve human beings, is based on these "data sets" , weather in the past, or in todays technology.

This is nothing new, for there is nothing new under the sun. We can just do more of it, more accurately and much faster and on wider scales with more detail, but it is nothing new.

Just think about it.

Its not the data mining that bothers me, what I concern myself with is : Who is doing it, why they are doing it, what they are doing with the data.

Blessings all.

Bob Pritchett said:

Logos collects stats on the use of the software. At various times we've collected all kinds of different stats; at the moment Logos 5 collects less information than earlier versions, but we expect to hook up more reporting in the future.

[...]

We tracked search queries. [...]

We tracked which dialog boxes were used. [...]

We tracked which books were opened. [...]

These stats, when aggregated, offer value to Logos and help us make a better product. Many of them also feed back into features that benefit users:

One of the potential issues/pitfalls I see with 'data mining' is what I would call 'pushing down to the lowest common denominator' or the race to mediocracy . I'm sure most of us would be familiar with one of the most abused statistical constructs — the old bell curve. It is unfortunately axiomatic that given a large enough population sampling, if one plots a curve of anything, one will end up with one of these.

Like any tool this can be used, or misused, or even abused.

Here's my point:

If there is a complex (but powerful) feature or function in a software package like Logos which data mining shows is used infrequently and/or ineffectively should the software company cut it out? After all, data mining clearly shows that it is not being used very much, and most of those people who do use it don't use it well/properly — it's right up there on the far side of the bell curve.

So should we follow one train of logic, go for the 95% and chop it off, or, should we aim higher and apply more resources to that top 3-5%, for example with more information and training. The concern I have is that if the top 3-5% is chopped off what will eventually happen is that the bell curve will just regain its shape and move to the left — the race to mediocracy.

I have recently become interested in the 'Syntax Search' feature in Logos which I saw initially in the Logos 'Learn to Use Greek and Hebrew' video training. I don't see much mentioned about it in the usual places (forum etc.). I have the MP Seminars' 'Logos Bible Software Training Manual', a paid training documentation. Syntax Search gets a one line mention on page 2 of Volume 1 — that's it. I see from querying the forums that it is tricky to learn and master — fair to say it's a top 3-5% user feature. Data mining says it is not used much — shall we chop it off? Dave Hooten might have something to say about that! And, of course, the product will be the poorer.

I believe you will see my point — slavishly and unthinkingly following where data mining leads may end up undermining the edifice.

David Mitchell said:

In the case of Syntax Search, we've chosen to add value to the data set it queries by inventing new features on top of it, like Grammatical Relationships in Bible Word Study and the new Clause Search in Logos 5. These make it easier to derive value from that data, and in some cases, they provide the spark necessary to motivate a person to learn how to use the more advanced Syntax Search feature.

Good on ya mate! (translation from Australian = 'that's great, good to see, thanks Dave!')

[H]

p.s. do you know/have any good resources for learning how to use it effectively?

Appreciate the comment alabama24. 

What motivated my post was Bob's original comment, "Moving forward, we plan to offer "crowd sourced" data that benefits all our users.  (You will be able to turn off, or ignore, this crowd-sourced data if you don't want to use it.)"

As one customer, and apparently I'm not alone, just not interested in yet another social experience.  If we step back and consider the generations perhaps being represented in this discussion, not surprising you have the older folks (myself included) who prefer to work in relative isolation, whereas the younger folks prefer to work in a team environment.  The younger generation (and the next one) has given "birth" to the Facebook and Twitter age.  I sense these realities are behind the desire for increased collaboration, and I don't deny this trend will continue, nor that there is benefit depending on theological compatibility. 

All that some users are suggesting is they are not interested.  That's all.  Sure there's emotion, silly, and immature comments as one person observed, but in the end some folks simply don't want to see Logos headed in that direction.  Selfish lot we are really.  Of course, in the end we understand that is not our decision to make.

As for highlighting, I personally do not highlight in my paper-based books and Bibles.  Never have.  Never highlighted in my text books either, so it is not a religious thing.  This habit has continued with my digital library as well.  I find it distracting, though I certainly concede there is an obvious benefit to the practice.  Instead, when studying a passage I will print that out, and manually mark it up and highlight key points.  I find this most engaging and helpful for me.  Notwithstanding, I would encourage Logos to keep popular highlighting, as I can see some benefit to me when consulting lengthy articles in say the Anchor dictionary or in laborious comments in certain technical commentaries.  But most of the time, like my Kindle that offers this same service (that I can also turn on/off), it will remain off for me.

Alabama24, just uneasy about where Logos may wish to take my "personal" Bible study.  I do appreciate and see some value in the collaborative endeavors like - Faithlife, community ratings, highlights, notes, but as a member of Generation X all these things really do not appeal to me.  Add to the mix that I am an introvert; well we have a real social mess on our hands.  Gee, lots of young folks at Logos.  Wonder how many old, grumpy folks use Logos?  Perhaps there needs to be some consideration to the generational differences.  Yet, young believers are the future of the church for sure. In my defense I do have a Facebook account now, though I cannot understand for the life of me why so many people think I am interested in hourly updates on their mundane lives?

Sorry for the long post.

Best regards

IRONY: 

The company whose philosophy was always thought to be "Don't Be Evil" turns out to be the quintessential data miner (in order to make a buck), and yet, people readily accept it and continue to happily use their services. 

On the other hand, a company devoted to serving the Church with the finest Bible study software is constantly accused of the most evil of intentions whether they be financial, data mining/monitoring/ or whatever, and yet, they continually demonstrate their integrity through such things as high levels of corporate transparency, unexpected rebates/credits to Users, discounts/sales/giveaways, being genuinely desirous to receive User feedback and suggestions, public apologies, bending over backwards to "make it right" with offended Users, a completely open communication policy with anyone in the company, &etc. 

___________________

While I don't want Community information pushed at me (I could care less what the "Community" thinks - if we always followed what the "Community" thought, we would all have been Arians for the last two millenia - sound theology and good exegesis does not rest on groupthink or polls), it doesn't bother me if Logos wants to monitor my anonymous usage of their product in order to refine the software.  If datamining of my personal usage should suddenly become a vehicle for sales and marketing, however, then I object.  But I see no indication of that happening and I have no reason to doubt the integrity of Bob Pritchett.

MJ. Smith said:

I believe those wanting the off switches must present a very strong case, not based on fear or emotion, before I should have to bear the negative side-effects.

WAR IS PEACE
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH

To the future or to the past, to a time
when thought is free, when men are different from one another and do
not live alone — to a time when truth exists and what is done
cannot be undone: From the age of uniformity, from the age of
solitude, from the age of Big Brother, from the age of doublethink —
greetings!

MJ. Smith said:

Paul Golder said:

I only quote Orwell because I believe that privacy is priceless, and should not be surrendered for any reward.

I respect your position and could make a good case for it. However, the question is "when does your right to privacy trump my right to the best product Logos can provide?" That, my friend, is a very sticky problem for which a simple answer has yet to be agreed upon - the problem in the form presented by software is a new and ever moving target.

I see what you are saying MJ, and while I have already offered myself on the facebook altar (among other privacy profiteers), my sensibilities make me feel that personal Bible study should be just that. I know that this is an emotional response, but what are we without our emotions?

MJ. Smith said:

• to provide off switches on the desktop for features that run in the cloud for mobile devices decreases the amount of reusable code
• to provide the tests for determining whether data is sent to the cloud increases the number of branches in the code - this increases the chances for error, increases the testing time and decreases efficiency thereby slowing the process down.
• coding and testing the turnoff feature takes resources that could be used to implement my highest priority request

Sorry... it's right back at you.

MJ. Smith said:

I believe those wanting the off switches must present a very strong case, not based on fear or emotion, before I should have to bear the negative side-effects.

Many believe the end does not automatically justify the means. And those who want change, if change means abrogating things like rights and privacy, must justify their case. Just because a thing can be done, does not mean it must be done — or even should be done. America could pre-emptively nuke those pesky Iranians out of existence — solve a lot of problems.

Brrrr, your logic and rationale scares me.

And I am not saying there shouldn't be any data mining in Logos.

Hi Bob,

To go back to the bottom line of your opening post...

Bob Pritchett said:

I hope this overview is helpful, and that you can appreciate the value that these social / community features add to the Logos platform, and hopefully to your study and investment as well.

In the end it is a question of value, and as you can tell from this thread, not everyone values the same things. That's why, from a consumer's point of view, it is great to have choice. Some of us see very little value in the social / community features. We would very much like to opt out (or, better, not opt in).

You are not alone, though, in trying to push the social / community thing in software. For example, Apple recently released iTunes 11, which expands some of its iCloud features, including marking the spot you left off in your last movie and syncing that to all your devices so you can start watching on your iPad right where you left off on your iMac. In the iTunes Store, they advertise, "Good recommendations are easy to come by, thanks to In the Store picks. Just select an album, artist, or genre you like, and iTunes will suggest similar music you might never have found on your own." Much of this is similar to what you have said you are or are wanting to do with Logos--Apple's doing it with music; Logos is doing it with books.

But there is one BIG difference--Apple doesn't force me to participate. In the preference settings there are a number of user-controlled options like, "Share details about your library with Apple".

On my computer, that box is not checked.

Not everyone perceives value the same. Please give us choice.

Thank you.

Paul

In an ideal world filled with ideal people we would treat each other ideally.  Christianity has had (as best that I can tell) less than an ideal history of how it treats people with different, minority, opposing, or simply new ideals.  Within the contemporary history of America itself are examples of Asians (WWII), Irish, Catholics, Gays, women, Germans (WWI), Native Americans, and other minority groups that have been discriminated against because of their status.  Now we are talking about allowing  or encouraging "communities" access to the whole range of human expression to be judged by religious people within an American historical context....lol...sorry I pass.

Fr. Charles R. Matheny said:

Yet, I still find these comments very odd.Don't care or want to know what others are thinking? Then why do you own Biblical software which has a plethora of others thoughts, writings intwined within it and that presents these thoughts at a single click.

Well because there are certain opinions and information that are valuable. There is a lot that is not. The early church was "open" but the apostles didn't do Facebook "community style" study. They valued the Scriptures. They listened to each other. They didn't get the opinions of everyone else, they stuck with trusted ones. In the same way, they instructed in doctrine. Yes, there is a place for open discussions in the church, but gaining information from a social and communal is not the same. There are reasons why we trust certain information or consider it valuable from the Scripture all the way down. It's always been that way in the church.

Likewise, I don't think there's a valid comparison between some of us asking Logos to not track our keystrokes and "openness" in the early church. They would have cringed at the type of surveillance that has become normal in our society. The arguments for "openness" and "nothing to hide" tend to be a little utopian and often enable information gathering that ultimately becomes enslaving. Obviously I'm not accusing Logos of that, just addressing the overall bigger issue.

Interesting such perceptions of the past. I guess it depends on where you live. Here distance is the issue.

But I think it's funny that the primary issue at our church is 'gossip' ... sharing what you know about other people, to impress others (good or bad, though mostly the latter).

Sometimes our pastor really cuts his words short, he's so frustrated. 'Stop it!'  That seems to work for a while.

You know, if Christianity was like the
Logos user base we would end up with thousands of churches in this
world, having hundreds of denominations, with hundreds of differing
practices within each denomination, and many differing beliefs among
the members of each church.

Good thing that Christianity isn't like
that...

Fr. Charles R. Matheny said:

I have to say : I find this thread one of the most fascinating examples of Christian community thought I have ever read.

In it I find:

The difficulty of defining "privacy".

This whole , very strong idea of "private" studies of scriptures written primarily for communities and for communities to respond too.

The idea of not caring what others in the Christian Community thinks, believes, needs.

The last one is extremely  interesting as well as disturbing . Every Pastor/teacher should be concerned about all these areas. Shepherds need to know sheep well enough to know their needs: when they need water, food and when they are ill, it is through knowing sheep and their needs that they can be led properly, tended too properly, led away from what is evil and to/towards good health.

( Granted being able to turn these things on and off is needed).

Yet, I still find these comments very odd.Don't care or want to know what others are thinking? Then why do you own Biblical software which has a plethora of others thoughts, writings intwined within it and that presents these thoughts at a single click.

Everything in the software is just that, pure and simple. Every lexicon is another persons thoughts, research, work on particular words, every commentary is chock full of the sociological trends/thinking patterns of the time from which it comes.

Logos is trying to give you more of that which you are already buying, and trying to give Pastors a better idea of the Christian theological and sociological directions.( which might actually help us provide better correctives within a devolving society).

I really do find this a most interesting conversation, a very revealing "snippet " of Christian thinking in America and how we embrace life, the gospel etc.

One one hand we have the Life of Christ and the apostles who laid themselves open and bare for all, forever and spoke of everyone having the same hearts and minds, of trying to live life with an attitude to where the needs of others were of more value to us than our own. 

On the other, here we are, saying we do not care what others think/believe, wanting to protect our "privacy", wanting our biblical studies of community documents to be "private".

This is very interesting.

I love M.J.Smith thoughts on some of this and think they should be expanded on a bit more.

Reason? Christianity is based on the living example of Christ who gave up "HIMSELF" for the Mission of the Father which was the salvation of the many.

Separatism, narcissism and many other negatives are growing within our society, we are of course, not immune to these influences.

Are these sociological trends affecting our thinking on this and many other subjects?

I find it a good question for myself, perhaps others will as well.

I only post this here because this is a different "type" of thread than we usually have have on the Logos Forums. I mean no offense, simply stating my observations and interest.

Blessings all.

My Dear Brother in Christ!                      I thank God for your very helpful - refreshing! - and very positive and encouraging post!       *smile*

              Peace to you     ...........                  and to all!                                                 and ..            .......    Always Joy in the Lord!