I want to find every occasion Jesus quoted the Old Testament. What is the best way to do that. I am using Logos 6.
Use the HCSB bible. It's the only one that has an Old Testament quotation field although unfortunately it doesn't have speaker labels. So you still have to use this L4 method: https://community.logos.com/forums/t/26181.aspx
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Josh Hunt
Member Posts: 1,052 ✭✭✭
I want to find every occasion Jesus quoted the Old Testament. What is the best way to do that. I am using Logos 6.
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Josh Hunt said:
I want to find every occasion Jesus quoted the Old Testament. What is the best way to do that. I am using Logos 6.
Use the HCSB bible. It's the only one that has an Old Testament quotation field although unfortunately it doesn't have speaker labels. So you still have to use this L4 method: https://community.logos.com/forums/t/26181.aspx
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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Here is a little more detailed way, related to what Mark mentioned above, but that takes advantage of one of the new Logos 6 Features, that of being able to search for the Speaker. [:)]
1. Run a Bible search in the ESV for {Speaker <Person Jesus>}. This will return 2047 verses. Save this search result as a Passage List. I've named the passage list "Jesus Speaks".
2. Run a Bible Search for * in the HCSB, selecting the search field "OT Quotation" and then limiting your search range to the Passage List you just saved! You'll get 90 verses back.
3. Now, there are actually at least 2 more Bibles that have the OT Quotation field, so it is always good to compare results! They are the NA27 and the NA28. The NA28 is included in some Logos 6 base packages. Interestingly, these give more results than the HCSB! You'll get 112 results. Just add the ESV or some other translation using the "Add versions" button.
4. Finally, we can compare these two results to see where they differ. To do so, save both search results as Passage Lists. Note that the search will be rerun when you do so, so it will take a bit.
5. Now, last step. From within either of the Passage Lists, select "Merge". Then, select the other Passage List, and finally choose "Symmetric Difference". This will display the results that are in one list, but not the other...
Interestingly, there are 28 results in this list! Which means that there are results in both lists that are not in the other! These you'll want to double check especially close, and this type of difference is a reminder of how it is always a good idea to check in two different sources if we need really reliable information. In this case, these mainly seem to be texts where it is debatable whether it is really a "quote" or not:
You can also run "Merge" again, and this time select "Union" to get the results that are present in both lists. Those results are going to be results that are pretty clearly an OT Quotation, as two different versions agree on them.
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Fr Devin Roza said:
Here is a little more detailed way, related to what Mark mentioned above, but that takes advantage of one of the new Logos 6 Features, that of being able to search for the Speaker.
Nice job Fr. Devin[Y]
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Fr Devin Roza said:
Here is a little more detailed way, ...
This is brilliant. Thank you for the walk-through.
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Fr Devin Roza said:
Here is a little more detailed way, related to what Mark mentioned above, but that takes advantage of one of the new Logos 6 Features, that of being able to search for the Speaker.
This is phenomenal. Thanks for taking the time to write this up and include screenshots.
We need a "Add to wiki" function in the forums so that someone with appropriate rights can immediately make a wiki page out of answers as good as this one. There have been a couple of others like this recently.
Alternatively, move the forums to the Stack Exchange software platform so we can give feedback on answers and thereby move them up in ranking.
Donnie
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Donnie Hale said:
We need a "Add to wiki" function in the forums
[y][y][y][y][y][y][y][y][y][y][y][y][y][y][y][y][y][y][y][y][y][y]
Eating a steady diet of government cheese, and living in a van down by the river.
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Fr Devin Roza said:
Save this search result as a Passage List.
I knew there were ways to use passage lists for things other than simply listing verses, but I hadn't figured out some of the more brilliant ones, like this.
This goes back to my rather well-read post from last week...we need more documentation of specific examples of ways to use the features in the software, other than buried in the forums, where many, many Logos users never sneak.
(Here's the thread, if you didn't see it- https://community.logos.com/forums/t/93927.aspx )
Eating a steady diet of government cheese, and living in a van down by the river.
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Brilliant thread indeed. And indeed, this should go into the wiki. The only question is: how and where?
Maybe there could be a new section "searching concepts" or something?
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Thank you for this, These amazing ways to search the Scriptures will wind up being a blessing to those in my care. Thank you for taking all that time to enlighten me and so many.
Windows PC - Android Phone - Surface Pro 4
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It turns out that it is now actually possible to directly search for when Jesus quotes the OT in just one search, using the Literary Type feature! Search for this:
[quote]{Speaker <Person Jesus>} WITHIN {Section <LiteraryType Quotation, Old Testament>}
Here is what the results look like:
I figured this out today watching this video here, which I highly recommend, on literary typing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxC8MY2RAZU&list=UUZFF0RGvkG-G5_SACnkN_5w. After watching the video I was playing around a bit with the feature, and noticed that "Quotation, Old Testament" was one of the LiteraryTypes. Nice!
Check out the Lexham Glossary of Literary Types here: logosres:lxhmglssryltyps;hw=Quotation,_Old_Testament. This is really the type of thing that opens up so many possibilities!
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Fr Devin Roza said:
It turns out that it is now actually possible to directly search for when Jesus quotes the OT in just one search, using the Literary Typing feature! Search for this:
Very nice - thanks for flagging this.
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This is cool, but. . .
If feels like you have to be a programmer to really use Logos. I wish there was a way to get to this kind of search using user-friendly drop down menus and radio buttons.
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Why does the result vary by translation? The search above yields the following results, depending on translation
NIV 126 results
ESV 104 results
NKJV 169 results
NRSV 105 results
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Josh Hunt said:
Why does the result vary by translation? The search above yields the following results, depending on translation
NIV 126 results
ESV 104 results
NKJV 169 results
NRSV 105 results
There's no substantive difference between them. But the search actually takes place on the underlying Greek text.
If an English version inserts a word for clarity, then it will break the section, and the search will then find two sections.
Or if a sentence is rearranged, '"It is written", he said to them, "My house will be..."' is two hits, whilst 'He said to them, "It is written my house..."' is one hit.
As with morphology searches, if you want accurate counts, search on the Greek text.
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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Mark Barnes said:
There's no substantive difference between them. But the search actually takes place on the underlying Greek text.
If an English version inserts a word for clarity, then it will break the section, and the search will then find two sections.
As well, note that in all English Reverse Interlinears (I tested with 6 anyway), the number of verse results is identical - 87. This is the most important search result, not the number of hits, which will vary based on how the phrase is worded compared to the underlying Greek.
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None of my Greek versions had any results. (I tried 4 na27 and one na28)
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Josh Hunt said:
None of my Greek versions had any results. (I tried 4 na27 and one na28)
Bibles need to be rebuilt for this to work. SBL Greek NT, Byzantine, Lexham Discourse and Lexham Interlinear SBL are the only ones so far.
I think the SBL is the base text for the tagging, so that's the one to use.
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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Josh Hunt said:
None of my Greek versions had any results. (I tried 4 na27 and one na28)
Try with the SBLGNT. That's the base text for these types of tagging.
I'm not sure if Faithlife has plans to line up the other Greek editions with the tagging in the SBLGNT... hopefully so!
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Where do I go to learn all the syntax for these kind of searches?
{Speaker <Person Jesus>} WITHIN {Section <LiteraryType Quotation, Old Testament>}
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Josh Hunt said:
This is cool, but. . .
If feels like you have to be a programmer to really use Logos. I wish there was a way to get to this kind of search using user-friendly drop down menus and radio buttons.
I agree with you - hopefully for Logos & Verbum 7 (or sooner) we can have an advanced search pane where these can be constructed using dropdowns and such.
But, until then, here are a couple of tricks that can help.
Oftentimes, but not always (yet), you can right click, select the tag like "Literary Types" or "Persons", and then run a search, and your query will be constructed for you.
For example, I discovered that the Literary Types had the Old Testament Quotations when I ran a Passage Guide on Matthew 1-5. Try it out. In the Literary Types section, right click on a Literary Type. Then select the Literary Type in the context menu. You'll get an option to search for that Literary Type.
Here's the search that will be built for you automatically: {Section <LiteraryTyping = Quotation, Old Testament>}
Similarly, if you right click on the name of a person, you can do the same with the Person tag, or other tags that might be present:
Which will create the search for <Person Jesus> (these are also available in the dropdown in the search itself, just typing the name).
The Wiki hasn't yet been updated with all the new commands, and a quick search through the built in Help of Verbum also indicated that this type of search is not in there yet, either. I don't think there is a comprehensive place yet for learning these searches, but hopefully there will be soon.
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Josh Hunt said:
Where do I go to learn all the syntax for these kind of searches?
{Speaker <Person Jesus>} WITHIN {Section <LiteraryType Quotation, Old Testament>}
Josh,
This thread might help to a certain extent: https://community.logos.com/forums/t/94301.aspx
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The {Speaker} queries can be created from the right click menu as well. Running a search after selecting the speaker icon like this...
...will create this query:
[quote]{Speaker <Person Jesus>}
So, the entire query to search for Jesus quoting the OT can in theory be created by right clicking, running searches, and then combining the automatically created search queries with the WITHIN operator.
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Josh Hunt said:
Where do I go to learn all the syntax for these kind of searches?
{Speaker <Person Jesus>} WITHIN {Section <LiteraryType Quotation, Old Testament>}
Josh,
I don't know if you saw it or not, but this is exactly why I posted this thread-
Eating a steady diet of government cheese, and living in a van down by the river.
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For some reason my search do not complete. I followed the screenshots to the letter, but when I click on search, I do not get any results. The little black boxes next to bible results just keep on scrolling. I have waited more than 5 minutes, but still no result. Strange
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Sarel Slabbert said:
For some reason my search do not complete. I followed the screenshots to the letter, but when I click on search, I do not get any results. The little black boxes next to bible results just keep on scrolling. I have waited more than 5 minutes, but still no result. Strange
My search finally completed. According to Logos it took 203 seconds to complete, but according to my clock it took more than 5 minutes. Anyway, does anyone else experience a time delay like this? I ran the search a few times and it takes this long every time. Perhaps this is normal for these types of searches? Still a great feature!
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A great way to quickly determine which search fields are available for a resource is to open the resource and click the Info button top right. It will show all the Search Fields for that resource. For instance:
LEB - Can search Bible Text, Footnote Text, Heading Text, Large Text, and Surface Text.
ESV - Bible Text, Cross Reference, Footnote Text, Heading Text, Large Text, Surface Text, Translator's Notes, and Words of Christ.
HCSB - Abbreviation Pop-up, Bible Text, Cross Reference, Disputed Passage, Footnote Text, General Note, Heading Text, Large Text, OT Quotation, Surface Text, Translator's Notes, Words of Christ
NASB95 - Bible Text, Cross Reference, Footnote Text, Heading Text, Large Text, Surface Text, Translator's Note, Words of Christ.
This works for all resources and can really help to see what possible searches can be done with which resources. It would have been nice to have a list of Searchable Fields and which resources (i.e. Bibles) could do that search.
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Sarel Slabbert said:
My search finally completed. According to Logos it took 203 seconds to complete, but according to my clock it took more than 5 minutes. Anyway, does anyone else experience a time delay like this? I ran the search a few times and it takes this long every time. Perhaps this is normal for these types of searches? Still a great feature!
Whenever you search for * you can expect to wait a long time.
That is one of the reasons that the better option is the new version 6 syntax: {Speaker <Person Jesus>} WITHIN {Section <LiteraryType Quotation, Old Testament>}, which is very fast. The other advantage of this new type of search is that it can be applied to pretty much any Bible that has a reverse interlinear.
BTW, for a quite complete list of the search fields, check here: https://wiki.logos.com/Search_Fields_List. But, know that Faithlife doesn't use search fields that much anymore, and are moving more towards advanced tagging features that combine search extensions, datatypes, and labels (cf. here for a bit more on that).
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Mark Barnes said:
Bibles need to be rebuilt for this to work. SBL Greek NT, Byzantine, Lexham Discourse and Lexham Interlinear SBL are the only ones so far.
Found two Spanish, four Greek (matches Mark's list), and eleven English Bibles currently have appropriate tagging for search:
{Speaker <Person Jesus>} WITHIN {Section <LiteraryType Quotation, Old Testament>}
Added Search to Favorites.
Keep Smiling [:)]
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Josh Hunt said:
This is cool, but. . .
If feels like you have to be a programmer to really use Logos. I wish there was a way to get to this kind of search using user-friendly drop down menus and radio buttons.
I agree Josh. It would be nice if there was a way to select search parameters similar to the way we do for syntax searches or morph searches.
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I finally had time to carefully go through this thread and test out these searches for myself. Thanks for everyone who contributed to this. [Y]
Using adventure and community to challenge young people to continually say "yes" to God
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Bookmarking this thread. Thank you Fr. Devin Roza
L2 lvl4 (...) WORDsearch, all the way through L10,
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I nominate Fr Devin as Logos Search Trainer of the Year!
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Fr Devin Roza said:
I agree with you - hopefully for Logos & Verbum 7 (or sooner) we can have an advanced search pane where these can be constructed using dropdowns and such.
[Y]
There used to be a way to construct complex searches using a dialog box with radio buttons and such in Logos 3, but they never implemented that in Logos 4 and up. I do hope something like that comes back. There's so much power under the hood in Logos that average users never get exposed to because they don't want to learn a geeky syntax, or don't even know that such a geeky syntax exists. It's not the type of thing you can discover on your own when exploring the user interface to get to know the software. And even for us geeks, it's hard to remember all the syntax. Like with MS Word's fields. I helped write Word and even I can't remember the field syntax, so I use the Insert Field dialog often when I need to use a field with parameters.
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Using adventure and community to challenge young people to continually say "yes" to God
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Just been playing ...
{Speaker <Person Jesus>} WITHIN {Section <LiteraryType Quotation, Old Testament>}works ok of course but swopping terms does not
{<LiteraryType Quotation, Old Testament>} WITHIN {Section Speaker <Person Jesus>}
There is something that I don't understand that will be so clear when I am enlightened & I feel an idiot so please someone make me feel an idiot - at least I will learn!
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JohnB said:
{<LiteraryType Quotation, Old Testament>} WITHIN {Section Speaker <Person Jesus>}
There's some invalid syntax. Should be
{Section <LiteraryType Quotation, Old Testament>} WITHIN {Speaker <Person Jesus>}
The {extension} syntax doesn't work with <datatype> alone. {Section} and {Speaker} are different extensions.
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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And even with the correct syntax the results will be different as the extent of the first term needs to be completed contained inside the second
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Thanks ...
I said I would feel an idiot, I had read that three times and did not spot the missing word. ...
Graham,
From what you are saying, nether set of results is 'correct' as there is no 'correct' answer. With any search of this type one needs to use ones own judgment in the final analysis.0 -
JohnB said:
From what you are saying, nether set of results is 'correct' as there is no 'correct' answer. With any search of this type one needs to use ones own judgment in the final analysis.
I would say it is more to do with what you are looking for.
Are you looking for every OT quotation in words of Jesus or are you looking for all the words of Jesus fully contained in an OT quotation?
they are different questions and so would give different answers
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The reason there is a variation in results is because LiteraryType tags whole verses, whereas Speaker labels are more precise.
So Matthew 4:4 looks like this:
<LiteraryType=QOT>Jesus answered, <Speaker=Jesus>“It is written: ‘Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.’”</Speaker></LiteraryType>
So, Speaker WITHIN LiteraryType would return the verse, but LiteraryType WITHIN Speaker would not.
In practice, LiteraryType=QOT WITHIN Speaker=Jesus will only return results where the entire verse consists of Jesus' speech.
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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OK.
I see precisely what went wrong with my thinking now - sloppy thinking.
I certainly need to be very clear as to what question I am asking. Both of your answers were very useful and complementary.0 -
Rosie Perera said:
I nominate Fr Devin as Logos Search Trainer of the Year!
Thank you, Rosie and others. It is a joy to help out in this little community trying to get to know better the Word of God.
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I may be missing how to do this, but it would be great to have the ability to automatically insert the Old Testament Scripture References in these search functions. Nice to have as a handout.
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 16 & Android 14
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Frank Sauer said:
it would be great to have the ability to automatically insert the Old Testament Scripture References in these search functions
A search can identify where they are but extracting them is a manual task e.g. in bibles they can be found in footnotes. They can also be found in LLS:OTQUOTESINNT (OT Quotes in the NT) but good luck extracting them. On the web I found this list which you can easily copy and Add to a Passage List (from clipboard). Sort the list to separate NT from OT and then delete the NT references.
But you could keep the NT references in another PL and compare them against the passages you get from the Search {Section <LiteraryType Quotation, Old Testament>}, as the web list includes all OT Quotations. Then you can be selective about accepting NT passages you don't get from your search.
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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I think I would have to buy another book to do this for me or use the internet.
All these searches within Logos are just...sorry...way too complicated for my small brain.
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JoshInRI said:
.sorry...way too complicated for my small brain.
It gets that way for "experts" as well!
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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