Quality matters!

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/730505#Comment_730505

It is frustrating - but this is one of the implications of the way Vyrso books are handled and, from my understanding, it would be difficult for them to do much better without costs becoming prohibitive.

Francis

Makes me wonder how this would work out if catalogs end up being downloaded en masse as in the scenario of future distribution Bob said he was thinking about. Links mistakes galore?

GaoLu

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/730524#Comment_730524

I have to agree, that the number of wrong links, etc. has become so frequent that I mostly have stopped reporting. I am finding this in Logos resources including Mobile Ed courses, not just Vyrso. I wish the quality of Logos resources and the speed of the program could be improved, before adding masses of new books, bells and whistles.

Don Awalt

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/730532#Comment_730532

I have for a while now been a proponent of "Do less and do it more completely", which is clearly not the vision of Faithlife. While we have all benefitted at times from that particular new feature/function that seemed to come out of left field, the continued addition of many resources and functions requiring relevant tagging makes the "to do list" on already released resources even longer. I have to believe there is more catch up to do now than ever.

This is not just a resource issue either - while we add new features every 6 weeks "Now", there are fundamental features of Logos/Verbum that still have not been completed that we only hear "It's on the list but no commitment to release date".

I wonder where Logos/Verbum is on this curve?

William Gabriel

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/730532#Comment_730532

I have to agree, that the number of wrong links, etc. has become so frequent that I mostly have stopped reporting. I am finding this in Logos resources including Mobile Ed courses, not just Vyrso. I wish the quality of Logos resources and the speed of the program could be improved, before adding masses of new books, bells and whistles.

I agree. I'm disappointed that for how much we pay for value add, there are still so many problems. The most frequent problem I see is in commentaries, where the author references another book and chapter in the Bible in a paragraph, has a few sentences, then mentions another verse from that passage he was referencing. I feel that more times than not, the linking reverts to the commentary's passage instead of keeping the local context of the new passage under discussion.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/730541#Comment_730541

The most frequent problem I see is in commentaries, where the author references another book and chapter in the Bible in a paragraph, has a few sentences, then mentions another verse from that passage he was referencing. I feel that more times than not, the linking reverts to the commentary's passage instead of keeping the local context of the new passage under discussion.

This shouldn't happen in Logos-edition books. Can you provide some specific examples?

Keith Larson

Even a very simple paragraph below somehow links to Psalms instead of Genesis!

logosres:9781433614767;art=r8;off=27847;ctx=rstanding_of_texts._~For_example,_we_now_

This is a Vyrso eBook. I think Logos has made it quite clear that they do NO manual tagging of these resources, everything is automated. They are just "Kindle books" that have scripture links that "sometimes work." This is why the price is so low compared to regular Logos editions.

Because Logos has made it clear that they do NO editing of Vyrso books it is a waste of your time to report typos and broken hyperlinks to Faithlife.

What I think we can get legitimately upset about is the errors in Logos editions and the fact that several weeks ago FL was promoting Vyrso books as "better than Kindle books" because of the scripture links. If they have no intention of maintaining quality control over scripture links in Vyrso eBooks they should not advertise this as a value added feature.

Even a very simple paragraph below somehow links to Psalms instead of Genesis!

The auto-hyperlinking works well when the reference is unambiguous. The compiler doesn't understand "Genesis chapters 37-39," but it does recognize "chapters 37-39." It would have understood Genesis 37-39.

Here is the sentence:

For example, we now clearly understand how the grammar of Genesis chapters 37–39 indicates the timeline of the events.

The auto compiler goes back to the last unambiguous reference, which happens to be Psalm 23:

Here are the first two verses of Psalm 23 from the Cambridge edition of the KJV

I don't know if the compiler could be tweaked to allow for "Genesis chapters 37-39" or not... however, it would still not be able to handle things like "In the third chapter of the Gospel of St. John" ... <later> "...3:16...". It would still pull back the last unambiguous reference (whatever that might be).

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/730565#Comment_730565

The auto compiler goes back to the last unambiguous reference, which happens to be Psalm 23:

if the compiler is programmed to go a dozen of paragraphs back to find Ps 23, SURELY it can be programmed to parse a natural language phrase, where the book name is only 1(one!) word back.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/730658#Comment_730658

The auto compiler goes back to the last unambiguous reference, which happens to be Psalm 23:

if the compiler is programmed to go a dozen of paragraphs back to find Ps 23, SURELY it can be programmed to parse a natural language phrase, where the book name is only 1(one!) word back.

It doesn't "go back," it simply remembers the last clear reference and extrapolates. For a computer, there is nothing "simple" about "a natural language phrase."

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/730661#Comment_730661

I've stopped submitting typo reports to FaithLife for wrong links that they introduced to manuscripts with their auto-linking algorithm. The reason was the sheer number of such wrong links. I was spending too much of my time "value-adding" Logos, instead of studying the Scriptures.

Even a very simple paragraph below somehow links to Psalms instead of Genesis!

logosres:9781433614767;art=r8;off=27847;ctx=rstanding_of_texts._~For_example,_we_now_

As I tend to run into missing links not incorrect links, I'm not quite sure what you are talking about. I see others have jump to the topic "Vyrso". Could you give me some example titles?

This is not just a resource issue either - while we add new features every 6 weeks "Now", there are fundamental features of Logos/Verbum that still have not been completed that we only hear "It's on the list but no commitment to release date".

Can you give me some examples of incomplete "fundamental features"? I know my list but want others' perspective.

My own analysis from another thread:

I'm not sure a QA team would resolve the matter as I tend to categorize the errors as follows:

resources originally correctly but requiring additional tagging because of software changes and/or resource changes including Logos Controlled Vocabulary

resources originally tagged incorrectly due to lack of resource specific information e.g. the BCP's original came without psalm links where Latin incipits were used as the reference

errors in resource tagging as the result of the automated process being unable to correctly decipher the publisher's intent e.g. assigning the wrong book to a chapter/verse reference. These can only be identified and corrected manually.

missing tagging due to a non-standard reference scheme in the book so that the automated process does not recognize it. These sometimes can be corrected automatically but their initial identification must be manual.

genuine errors

The fix is, therefore fairly complex, requiring:

extensive pre-planning of datatypes to allow references across multiple editions of a resource

extensive citation mapping so that when a resource is added they can identify all resources that now require updating

building screening capabilities to identify all candidates for coding for new features

some method of noting when new additions to LCV add ambiguity to a previously unambiguous name or word

beefed up QA with subject matter experts in a variety of areas

additional resources .... for which we as users have to pay

And please put my queries in the context of three threads I initiated on the same topic:

If we are going to get what we need, we need to keep our expectations reasonable regarding Vyrso, retagging older resources, what errors are preventable .... And we are going to have to help Faithlife identify systemic issues and prioritize the work ... which doesn't mean "me first",

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/730661#Comment_730661

It doesn't "go back," it simply remembers the last clear reference and extrapolates

This is a very BAD assumption. INSTEAD, perhaps auto-compiler could "step back" a few words from a reference that is missing the book name and see if there are words that are matching it. Likewise, it would be better, in my opinion, to simply NOT highlight references that are missing the book name, because the auto-compiler gets it wrong enough times to waste a lot of user time. Perhaps the exception being resources devoted to a single book of the Bible, where the probability is very high that the author is speaking about the same Bible book throughout.

For a computer, there is nothing "simple" about "a natural language phrase."

I agree, I simply believe Logos could do better (programming).

As I tend to run into missing links not incorrect links, I'm not quite sure what you are talking about. I see others have jump to the topic "Vyrso". Could you give me some example titles?

what I am talking about is the text referencing, say, John 3:16, and then in the next paragraph saying something like "in the Gospel of Luke chapters 5-6 Jesus did ..." The auto compiler sees "5-6" but cannot parse "Gospel of Luke chapters" it erroneously assumes that the text is still talking about the Gospel of John (from the previous paragraph) and links "5-6" to John 5-6.

HCSB: Navigating the Horizons in Bible Translations
Ray Clendenen and David K. Stabnow

There are really thousands of other examples.

Mark Barnes

Even a very simple paragraph below somehow links to Psalms instead of Genesis!

That's a Vyrso book. By design, it doesn't have the level of accuracy that Logos books have. It's been autotagged, and will have a higher level of errors.

You probably also got it for free. I did.

Personally, despite this bad link, I think you got excellent value for money [:)].

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/730721#Comment_730721

As I tend to run into missing links not incorrect links, I'm not quite sure what you are talking about. I see others have jump to the topic "Vyrso"

This is because the original example was a Vyrso book and where this type of linking is commonly seen due to the way in which auto-tagging works

Could you give me some example titles?

"A Life of Obedience" demonstrates this well - a couple of examples below:

In the first case, even though the intention is link to a verse in Acts because the reference is not fully qualified the compiler picks up the last fully-specified book, in this case, John.

Similarly, here the intention is to link to 1 Peter (but the specification is so "natural" that it would be a challenge for a compiler to resolve it) and so it links to Romans instead.

Reflecting on this I think there is a lot of merit in toughski's suggestion:

Likewise, it would be better, in my opinion, to simply NOT highlight references that are missing the book name, because the auto-compiler gets it wrong enough times to waste a lot of user time

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/730828#Comment_730828

Thank you for the examples. I now understand the issue but I don't run into it often in the resources I read. I wonder if the style of incomplete references not depending on the last reference but on an element in the text is stylistically clustered in particular publishers or imprints. That would allow Faithlife to disable the strategy in those books where it is apt to fail but retain it in other publications where it works well.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/730837#Comment_730837

MJ, good suggestion. As I said, there are a lot of inexpensive solutions that Logos can employ to save its reputation. As I remember, they marketed this feature as a MAJOR value-adding differential over "basic" Kindle books.

I am sorry I made this thread in the Logos 6 forum. Mea Culpa.

William Gabriel

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/730544#Comment_730544

The most frequent problem I see is in commentaries, where the author references another book and chapter in the Bible in a paragraph, has a few sentences, then mentions another verse from that passage he was referencing. I feel that more times than not, the linking reverts to the commentary's passage instead of keeping the local context of the new passage under discussion.

This shouldn't happen in Logos-edition books. Can you provide some specific examples?

Most of them have been lost to the sands of time, because I didn't keep track of them, but here's an example from the last commentary I was using last week. It's not a huge deal in this particular case because the proper link is in the prior sentence, but it is still an example of how the value add is sometimes sloppy.

Jones, H. R. (2007). A Study Commentary on Job. Darlington, England; Webster, New York: Evangelical Press.

The link I am highlighting should have been Job 13:26, but instead it links to Job 33:26 (Job 33 is the context of the commentary section). Job 33:26 makes no sense in the context of the sentence, but keeping the context of Job 13 does make sense.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/730896#Comment_730896

Thanks for the example

And I agree this shouldn't have happened here.

Fr. Charles R. Matheny

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/730903#Comment_730903

basically what is being said is: Software is getting worse as far as accuracy is concerned and thus cannot be trusted.
The bigger concern should be: What happens to students/laity who trust the software and thus misapply scripture based on wrong answers to search queries ?
What happens to their theology?

Just wondering.

Perhaps a little to Bob is needed asking him to address these issues with his teams to get them properly addressed . My guess is he is really the only one who can redirect enough resources to get things properly addressed .
Just my thoughts on this most disconcerting information.

mab

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/731312#Comment_731312

I suspect that getting product out the door as per the software itself might be behind some things, but it shouldn't be with Logos volumes. Proofreading really requires more than one set of eyes and I don't know how much is invested that way.

Simon’s Brother

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/730560#Comment_730560

This is a Vyrso eBook. I think Logos has made it quite clear that they do NO manual tagging of these resources, everything is automated. They are just "Kindle books" that have scripture links that "sometimes work." This is why the price is so low compared to regular Logos editions.

I agree in principle with what you are saying Keith, and what you are saying is consistent with what has been said in these forums by Logos employees, but Logos marketing makes a completely different and false claim on the Vyrso webstie about the abilitiy to lookup bible verses using Vyrso ebooks. I have alerted them to this false claim in the past and will continue to do so in the future everytime I see someone use this as a defence for the poor quality of links to bible verses in Vyrso books until Logos stops making these false claims on the Vyrso web site.

From: https://vyrso.com/about

And when you click on the See More button the false claims continue:

https://vyrso.com/features

So based on these claims made on the website the OP has every right and should be complaining about the quality of bible links in Vyrso eBooks when Logos makes such claims on the Vyrso website. No where on either of these pages does it state the links "sometimes work" and why they only "sometimes work". The reader is left with the impression that they "always work".

Todd Frusti

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/730560#Comment_730560

Because Logos has made it clear that they do NO editing of Vyrso books it is a waste of your time to report typos and broken hyperlinks to Faithlife.

Can someone from FL please comment as to whether reported typos and broken hyperlinks are ever used to fix/update Vyrso resources?

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/731331#Comment_731331

Some may wish to read the related post https://community.logos.com/forums/p/105651/731328.aspx#731328

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/731331#Comment_731331

Can someone from FL please comment as to whether reported typos and broken hyperlinks are ever used to fix/update Vyrso resources?

I am not a Logos employee, but i can unequivocally tell you, "no." As for typos, the resources come straight from the publisher. Bob has addressed the issue before several times.

I honestly don't know what the hoopla is over. If you really don't like it, buy the kindle version... As for me, I am willing to live with some mis-linked verses to have the resource in my Logos library. Furthermore, I would rather have most of these resources (not technical books) as a Vyrso edition (available now, low price including freebies) rather than a Logos edition (wait years for the resource to be added to catalog, higher price).

Todd Frusti

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/731342#Comment_731342

I honestly don't know what the hoopla is over. If you really don't like it, buy the kindle version... As for me, I am willing to live with some mis-linked verses to have the resource in my Logos library. Furthermore, I would rather have most of these resources (not technical books) as a Vyrso edition (available now, low price including freebies) rather than a Logos edition (wait years for the resource to be added to catalog, higher price).

I agree completely. I was wondering if it is worth my time to submit the typo reports for Vyrso products. I'll probably still submit them though just because I appreciate the opportunity. [8-|]

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/731345#Comment_731345

FWIW - Here is a link to a post from Bob: https://community.logos.com/forums/p/63017/445872.aspx#445872

...and another from a Faithlife employee: https://community.logos.com/forums/p/35348/266888.aspx#266888

...and an "oldie but goodie" thread from when the store was first launched: https://community.logos.com/forums/t/33729.aspx?PageIndex=1

Todd Frusti

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/731349#Comment_731349

Alabama, thanks for sharing. These threads answer any question that I had. However, like I said, I'll continue to submit the typos just for the fun of it.[:)]

Fr. Charles R. Matheny

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/731350#Comment_731350

Please forgive my prior post.
Several of the comments sounded as if general tagging was being discussed ( commentaries , word search , bad links, missed links, near misses etc).

I don't use anything other than Logos/Verbum so, I guess I'm sort of lost here.
If books are part of the library I pay for, I expect some sense of quality.
I preach on being a quality person, doing quality work buy practicing quality tradecraft, adding quality to the community by being the above.

It's hard for me to imagine expecting less from the tools we work with .

Keith Larson

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/731327#Comment_731327

This is a Vyrso eBook. I think Logos has made it quite clear that they do NO manual tagging of these resources, everything is automated. They are just "Kindle books" that have scripture links that "sometimes work." This is why the price is so low compared to regular Logos editions.

I agree in principle with what you are saying Keith, and what you are saying is consistent with what has been said in these forums by Logos employees, but Logos marketing makes a completely different and false claim on the Vyrso webstie about the abilitiy to lookup bible verses using Vyrso ebooks. I have alerted them to this false claim in the past and will continue to do so in the future everytime I see someone use this as a defence for the poor quality of links to bible verses in Vyrso books until Logos stops making these false claims on the Vyrso web site.

From: https://vyrso.com/about

And when you click on the See More button the false claims continue:

https://vyrso.com/features

So based on these claims made on the website the OP has every right and should be complaining about the quality of bible links in Vyrso eBooks when Logos makes such claims on the Vyrso website. No where on either of these pages does it state the links "sometimes work" and why they only "sometimes work". The reader is left with the impression that they "always work".

I would prefer that Logos made this clear as well. For the links that do work it is worth purchasing Vyrso rather than Kindle, but I think the customer needs to be prepared for resources that are not as high of quality as the Logos editions. The added benefit is that hopefully more people would understand way Logos can't "match the Kindle price" in their Logos store.

George Somsel

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/730840#Comment_730840

I am sorry I made this thread in the Logos 6 forum. Mea Culpa.

TYPO REPORT !!! [;)] [:D]

EDIT: This is an attempt to be humorous, folks. I don't get upset by errors in Vyrso books since I don't have many of them (2-3?).

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/731342#Comment_731342

I honestly don't know what the hoopla is over. If you really don't like it, buy the kindle version...

sorry, bro. If YOU don't like the post, please post elsewhere (written in the spirit of Christian love and tolerance [;)])

As for me, I am willing to live with some mis-linked verses to have the resource in my Logos library. Furthermore, I would rather have most of these resources (not technical books) as a Vyrso edition (available now, low price including freebies) rather than a Logos edition (wait years for the resource to be added to catalog, higher price).

as for me, I am trying to HELP Faithlife, by submitting typos and calling their attention (again) to the fact that their automated parser can be improved (by continuous development).