Lack of serious effort
As I have seen and read from other posts, I appreciate Logos for allowing me to be able to watch the growth of the Mac version of this new direction in Logos for Mac. That said, I do not see the kind of serious effort being expended. With progress coming in small steps, it appears that the Mac version may well be many, many months away from being a credible application.
I believe the fine folks at Logos have simply not made the kind of effort available to the Mac community to bring this much needed work forward. With the awesome power of the Mac platform and the growth of same, management at Logos should have found a way to be more competent in this task than they have shown.
Comments
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Last I read, Mr. Pritchett stated in December 2009 that within 6 months, the Mac version should be up and comparable to the windows version.
With more users on the Windows side vs. Mac side, it is a resources question, not an effort question per se.
Patience, patience...
I am a Mac user as well.
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This is not meant to be taken the wrong way... That said, it is really frustrating that Logos gets so many poor comments like this from the Mac community. I am the first to say point out issues with the program so that it can be made better. Team Logos has more than shown that they listen and act on the feedback of the users. That said, it is an incorrect statement that there is no effort for the Mac user...
Bob, Bradley, Phil, George, Melissa and all the other members that have spent months, weeks, days and hours in these forums answering questions, keeping users up to date and the whole team trying to get the greatest bible study tool on the market for both Windows and Mac almost simultaneously... While I can understand the extreme desire for a Mac platform, common business sense says you get the platform up and running that pays your business operational expenses. That would be the PC Version.
While I do not know the Logos percentage breakdown between users of PC and Mac, even if it were double the market share that Mac is in the computer industry, 20% is not going to get the same attention as 75% percent... I think the Mac users should give Logos some credit for even working this fast on the Mac version. Most companies would leave it as an after thought until all functions were complete and bug free on the PC Version...
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 15 & Android 14
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I abandoned the earlier Mac work done by Logos as I felt the finished Mac version was poorly implemented by Logos, and not at all what the Mac platform was capable of supporting.
I am also remembering that what we are dealing with here is a resource to assist me and countless others in growing in the Lord's Word. I am patient, but do not want to see this end result poorly finished as the first one.
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WilderBailey said:
With progress coming in small steps, it appears that the Mac version may well be many, many months away from being a credible application.
There is some truth in this but it is not a surprise, nor does it go against what Logos has stated. Software development *always* takes place in a series of small steps. Nonetheless, we've seen some real improvements to the Mac version since its first Alpha (make sure you note that - Alpha, not Beta) version.
Software development takes time. Nothing happens overnight. Logos has several staff members dedicated to Mac development and they are trying to acquire more (note the Jobs section of their website). From where I stand it looks like development of the Mac version is going a little slower than I originally anticipated, but for myself I am satisfied with the progress I see being made.
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Pat Flanakin said:
Last I read, Mr. Pritchett stated in December 2009 that within 6 months, the Mac version should be up and comparable to the windows version.
I believe the expectation was that within 6 months it would be quite usable, though not up to par with the windows version. And he made us promise not to hold him to that.
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Thanks for sharing your judgements on the work ethic of the Mac developers Mr. Basiley. While everyne, including Bob Pritchett of Logos would agree that mistakes were made in the 1.x version of Logos for mac (see the Mac disclaimer page), those who have been watching this round of development have seen a very different approach with Logos 4 for mac. Everything this time is "in house" and Logos is still hiring more Mac developers as we type. If you have some specific questions on the work being done in L4mac and how that relates to the L4windows version, please feel free to ask questions. If you want to help make things better and move forword toward a successful project, please feel free to download L4mac and join those of use who are bug hunting and working to support the Mac developers.
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The Alexandrian approach: I'm going back to a 300$ HP netbook. Everything I have been told from every angle has been outright wrong. I bought paralells for the explicit purpose, and with assurances and that there would be no problems running Logos 4. Wrong. I can't even install it. There is no option that I can find for changing where the app installs to. So, it tries to install to a drive that doesn't exist. Still waiting for the actual discs.
I was told how great mac was. Great for watching beachballs and bleeding out cash to a company stuck in a scarcity mentality. 'Its a great company' Really? I don't get it.
Don't get me wrong. Windows works, poorly, but at least it does work.
So, no offense if I have less than stellar expectations from Logos. I definitely won't hold him to it for the sake of charity if nothing else. If the netbook doesn't work I will hopefully be 3 grand wiser and save my coworkers some time and expense. Back to scratching my head over paper, and maybe God want the money to go to the poor. Maybe that is the real lesson. 3 gs? What was I thinking. Maybe sinful extravagance. Consequences. Noted. God bless.
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m1chael5@me.com said:
The Alexandrian approach: I'm going back to a 300$ HP netbook
Logos4 is not designed to work on a Netbook. But it could, if it meets the system requirements listed below.
Help links: WIKI; Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)
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m1chael5@me.com said:
Everything I have been told from every angle has been outright wrong. I bought paralells for the explicit purpose, and with assurances and that there would be no problems running Logos 4. Wrong. I can't even install it.
Computers suck when they don't do what you want them to. I know the frustration you are experiencing because I am responsible for many, many computers. Take a deep breath, grab a coke, see a movie. Get away from the problem for awhile. When the frustration level goes down, start working with the technical support groups for the products you are having problems with. Take it slowly, when the frustrations start to raise, take another break.
I use a Mac, I use Fusion and I have used Parallels, I use L4Win and L4Mac just like a lot of other people with no problems that can't be over come. Michael, you can too, and there are a lot of people that will devote a lot of time on this forum to making sure that you can. If there is anything I can do to help you, just email me at help2010@poperszky.org.
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Thanks, sorry for the brevity. Beachball hates me but God doesn't so oh well.
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Michael, I replied to your other thread with similar concerns here http://community.logos.com/forums/p/8364/73814.aspx#73814
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Logos doesn't have to develop their program for the Mac at all if they didn't want to. It is a benefit to Mac users, it' s not like we could demand "how much effort" they should put into the Mac product. Obviously since they've allowed you to pay for it, they're working on making the product! But hey, anything could happen to prevent that from finalizing. God is in control! [:)]
That being said, I think the Logos 4 Mac is going to be increasingly having quicker surprises of what they were able to accomplish between releases. My assumption is that right now they are focusing most of their Mac development on programming background code, and a little bit on the User Interface (Visual Display of the program). Already they've said things in their release notes that they developed the code for certain features, but that they are not yet possible for the end user to activate the use of such. That makes me think that once they have a lot of the background code done, then they'll put more of their Mac developers to the User Interface to code and we'll see quicker recognizable abilities and features.
If people keep on complaining about the Alpha Release, and how they spent too much money on a program that doesn't work right...then Logos is probably going to be tempted to not allow everyone to test their Alpha's & Betas in a future version, thereby everyone that enjoyed being involved in the process and having extra resources before the final product was released...they would then have to suffer as well because of those that complain about the very issues they put on their disclaimer page! Though I still use Logos 1.2.2 most of the time, I enjoy being able to use the Alpha version as well for some of the other resources that weren't able to transfer to the older version.
Jason Saling
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I would like to add that I think the Mac Dev's are going above and beyond what they are required to do. Not only do they take time to do tech support, one of the Dev's does support when he's at home (and probably off the clock). If that isn't serious effort, I don't know what is!
Also, most of the background code (base code) is the exact same as is used for the Windows program. The Dev team is working on building a native Mac UI using a combination of Cocoa, and open-source framework, and a custom bridge between the two. This will take time--but not as long as writing the whole program from scratch.
Blessings,
Michael Kares
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Jason, one bit of info you might be interested in is this. The Mac team is not developing any of the base code. The Windwos version shares exactly the same base code as the Mac version. so every new feature added by the Windows team is already built into the Mac version. The Mac team then is focused on developing the UI for us so we can access the features already there. In this regard, L4mac is not a typical Alpha project since in terms of features, it is already planned and designed.
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Great! Will go quicker than normal then as long as bugs in the open source software they're using to help develop the program don't prevent them from moving forward.
Jason Saling
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I was pretty ticked off that I paid more than I should have for Logos 3 (Mac). Not going to sugarcoat it -- and I won't, but I basically feel like I bought abandon-ware.
However Logos 4 seems to be developing quite nicely IMHO for Mac. It's nowhere near the L4 Windows version (itself not exactly the epitome of stability nor responsiveness) -- but it's getting to the point where I can fire it up and use it as more than a mere curiousity. In fact, the passage guide on Alpha9 seems to run faster(?) than my Vista box with virtually identical system specs to my MacBook Pro. Of course Vista does seem to slow down my PC considerably more than OS X slows down my Mac. So be that as it may.
From Thanksgiving -> Now has been a little more than a month. From Alpha5 to Alpha9 has been a HUGE improvement in L4 Mac and I'm pleased to see the direction it's going.
At this rate sometime in February I might not have to fire up my Windows machine
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RomeshPrakashpalan said:
I was pretty ticked off that I paid more than I should have for Logos 3 (Mac). Not going to sugarcoat it -- and I won't, but I basically feel like I bought abandon-ware.
I can identify with your first sentence here. I felt the same way and expressed my low opinion Logos Mac 1 (Not 3) on these forums. However, I would not call L1.2.2 "Abandon-ware". Logos had been working of a Mac version for a few years. L1 Mac was based on old technology to get a usable Mac version out the door. I did not like it, but many Mac users did. L4 Mac is a logical upgrade to L 1.2.2, and this path was stated several months ago by Bob Pritchett, CEO of Logos. You could update to L4 Mac and/or Windows without cost, but you would not have some of the enhanced resources that came with the upgrade packages. BTW, the upgrade prices are super deals.
RomeshPrakashpalan said:It's nowhere near the L4 Windows version
Not yet. But both versions share the same bas code and will therefore operate alike. The Mac Development Team is now hard at work writing the interface code to make the system work on the Mac. And, as you said, they are making remarkable progress. While I complained about L1 Mac, I am excited about L4 Mac.
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I agree with you 90% of the way. I don't think 1.2.2 of Logos Mac is anything that I would have represented as Logos for Mac. Call it something else if they wish, but someone using Logos 3 for Windows would probably be mortified that the Mac version cost the same (at least it was when I bought it). Just because they threw a Windows license with it doesn't really mean much to me -- as I'm a Mac user, and only recently have been using Logos on a Windows box.
Anyhow, be that as it may -- I did purchase the Logos 4 upgrade -- and I upgraded my collection to Scholar Silver. It is a fantastic bargain, and watching the Mac version progress (I use L4 on Windows primarily) has been encouraging.
I still don't feel like I got my money's worth with Logos 1 for Mac, but I think Logos 4 Mac will be worth the struggles we've gone through as Mac users. It has already been a blessing for my studies and teaching [:)]
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WilderBailey said:
That said, I do not see the kind of serious effort being expended.
Well, clearly you aren't walking through our offices very often. :-)
The Mac represents around 10% of our user base right now. Exactly 30% of our application development team is working (exclusively) on the Mac. (Plus one part-time intern, who is also on the Mac.)
We are sharing code from Windows to the Mac; a reason for the slower progress of the "visible" parts of the app is that we're finding / fixing / working-around issues in the cross-platform framework. This is getting stable, though, and more energy can be given to the surface-level interface, etc.
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Keep up the good work! I appreciate the effort being expended, and the opportunity to help test the Mac version. I like getting my hands dirty and testing things out.
Blessings
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m1chael5@me.com said:
If the netbook doesn't work I will hopefully be 3 grand wiser and save my coworkers some time and expense. Back to scratching my head over paper, and maybe God want the money to go to the poor. Maybe that is the real lesson. 3 gs? What was I thinking. Maybe sinful extravagance. Consequences. Noted.
You totally amaze me! If you tried to run any Bible software on a $300 Mac (is there such a pitiful puppy around? [&] ) you would be hard pressed to keep up with your head scratching and pencil studies. Why be so unfair to Logos? It is not just a Bible reader. Logos is a massive and powerful study tool.
Most Christians appear to have no problem paying for subscription TV services that constantly bombard them with violations of Godly standards. Many Christians will go into debt for an extravagant automobile or brand name clothes. We should rather defer to spend our money on tools that will better equip us to minister to the church and share the gospel. I am all for selling material possessions that were designed strictly for pleasure, ease & comfort. If you look around you may find better candidates for your jettison campaign.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Bob,
Thanks for the efforts that you are exerting in order to get the Mac version out there. Looking forward to a great product. Blessings to you and your staff!
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Bob Pritchett said:
The Mac represents around 10% of our user base right now. Exactly 30% of our application development team is working (exclusively) on the Mac. (Plus one part-time intern, who is also on the Mac.)
Bob
I know that in the past (prior to the release of L1 Mac) I complained (whined) about the lack of communication, but that is definitely not a problem since the release of L4 [8-|]. We really appreciate your willingness to take the time to participate in these forums. We also appreciate the input from the Mac Development Team. The progress on L4 Mac has been nothing short of amazing and encouraging. Thank you. [Y]
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I am thrilled with L4 and the effort that Logos is putting into the Mac development. I read the fine print before purchasing and knew that it was in Alpha development. Furthermore, I made a serious financial investment in upgrading my library to support Logos in this work. I have found them responsive to requests, concerns, frustrations, and bug reports.
As Logos continues to develop Mac and Windows versions of this premiere software, I encourage everyone to keep them in your daily prayers.
Rus Howard
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As a long-time lurker around here (Well, since the release of Logos 4 anyway...), I've definitely appreciated the increased communication to Mac users. I bought 1.2.2 and at first was perturbed when my download link led to an unfinished alpha, but then as the releases came, that feeling has gone away. In fact, the progress has led me to upgrade my package because I am now comfortable that this will not be abandon-ware, something I was afraid of given the experience with 1.2.2.
So, to Bob, all of the Mac development team, and all of the forum users helping to improve the product, I owe you a huge Thank You!
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Matthew C Jones said:m1chael5@me.com said:
If the netbook doesn't work I will hopefully be 3 grand wiser and save my coworkers some time and expense. Back to scratching my head over paper, and maybe God want the money to go to the poor. Maybe that is the real lesson. 3 gs? What was I thinking. Maybe sinful extravagance. Consequences. Noted.
You totally amaze me! If you tried to run any Bible software on a $300 Mac (is there such a pitiful puppy around? ) you would be hard pressed to keep up with your head scratching and pencil studies. Why be so unfair to Logos? It is not just a Bible reader. Logos is a massive and powerful study tool.
Most Christians appear to have no problem paying for subscription TV services that constantly bombard them with violations of Godly standards. Many Christians will go into debt for an extravagant automobile or brand name clothes. We should rather defer to spend our money on tools that will better equip us to minister to the church and share the gospel. I am all for selling material possessions that were designed strictly for pleasure, ease & comfort. If you look around you may find better candidates for your jettison campaign.
3 grand would be $3000, not $300.
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Scott Stackelhouse said:
3 grand would be $3000, not $300.
Maybe I misunderstood you. It sounds like you bought a netbook and are wondering why your Logos software runs slower on it than a Mac.
The beginning of your post you said "The Alexandrian approach: I'm going back to a 300$ HP netbook. "
Most people would claim @ccord@nce software is worthless if they try running it on a Mac SE/30.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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If it helps, I am running Logos 4 on a Samsung NC10 Netbook. The performance requires a little patience but, with that patience, it is adequate. For my daily reading and commentary research is does fine. I'd like more power but there are other things higher up my prayer list.
Dave
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If the numbers you present above are usefully correct, that the Mac represents 10% of your user base, then may I say a big "Hello". One of the truly large opportunities you folks at Logos have in your hands is to develop a truly great application for the Mac community. I am sure you know that Apple is growing market share handsomely, and you have a real chance to raise that 10% number to something much larger by simply making available a fine application.
You (Logos) now have an opportunity to bring to market something really well done. My concern is the past often leads to similar results in the present and the future. I have been a loyal customer for many years, and want this thing to show up on my Mac and work well.
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I must say, for an Alpha product she is shaping up quite nicely. The key functions I need are there. The rest I see is coming...
Mac Users historically have been tossed aside. Anyone remember Intuits decision to STOP producing Quickooks for Mac... Then 3 years later they decided they were wrong...
I thank Logos for working on a product that is familiar Mac/PC side. I have installed the PC version in Parallels 5.0 Under Windows 7. She works just fine.... aside from some minor display issues when I try to run it in Crystal Mode.
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