NEW: Learn to Use Biblical Greek and Hebrew with Logos 6
Comments
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Mark Barnes said:
My email has just arrived. It says the price for existing users will be $149.95, and available at that price after 19 November until the end of the year.
As I only paid $162.95 for the first course, that means the total I will pay for both versions will be only fractionally higher than people buying the second version on prepub. That's more than fair, I think (although if I paid $499 for the first version, I may not think that.)
That is my situation, too, with the $162.95 for the first course. This is a fair price offer, it seems to me. I have seen any of the other Mobile Editions, but I get the impression that they are better done. I'll probably go with this.
Pastor, Cornerstone Baptist Church, Clinton, SC
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I paid $200 for the first course, I had really hoped the update price would be much less than that, having to pay $150 feels more like having to buy it all over again. I don't think I'll go for it with this price.
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I did not receive an email (I checked Spam) and i bought the original product. Is the email needed for purchase of the upgrade (ie it has a coupon code on it) or is there aother way to buy? Do I need an email?
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Jack Caviness said:
With the release of Logos 5, FL changed the way Hebrew visual filters worked. This invalidated the examples in the Hebrew portion of Learn to use… It has now taken 3 years to release this new version.
Yes, this is why I asked if it was ever working. I have had the resource for a long time, but never able to use it. I bought it with no plans to immediately use it, but did not expect to wait this long to use it either. So I feel as if I purchased something that was broken but long past return date.
I agree that this is a fair upgrade price if the resource is now in a forever working mode. But what if I upgrade and do not like what I am getting? Would I return it for the upgrade price or would I be able to return the original resource purchased under L4 but was plagued with problems for 3 years?
I am really being optimistic and believing that we finally have what we have all been waiting for. But as Jack pointed out...3 years of waiting...I really feel it was a long time to keep owners of the original product waiting.
Still, I am hoping for the best.
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Don Awalt said:
I did not receive an email (I checked Spam) and i bought the original product. Is the email needed for purchase of the upgrade (ie it has a coupon code on it) or is there aother way to buy? Do I need an email?
Don, you don't need anything. Here is what was said in the email that applies:
[quote]Visit the product page any time after November 19 to purchase the bundle at your discounted price—no coupon code required. This offer is only available through the end of the year, so don’t wait!
Using adventure and community to challenge young people to continually say "yes" to God
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Thanks Bruce!
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For those asking about whether the original ever worked the answer is yes. It was made to work with Logos 4. You could follow the instructions exactly and it worked well. As with all the courses it refers and did refer to resources you might not own. As far as I can see the problem came for Hebrew with Logos 5 when the data tagging for Hebrew changed. That's when complaints appeared on the forum.
In my opinion this was never a problem with the course. Logos improved the tagging! It did make the course harder to follow because if you wanted to replicate what you saw on screen then you needed to think through it more carefully and/or use a different Hebrew Bible.
The point of the course for me was partly to learn to use the software but mostly to learn more about the languages. Even if you can't follow the instructions exactly what was said about the language still applied. Instructions for how to proceed also appeared on the wiki or forum, I can't remember which.
In 2014 I completed Greek and Hebrew to MA level and got great grades in both. I can tell you that these courses were incredibly helpful. I am a passionate advocate for still doing all the memorization and learning to read Hebrew and Greek. Why? I have occasionally found verbs tagged incorrectly (only a couple but it mattered and was not a subjective tagging choice just a mistake in the database). Mostly because familiarity helps you to know what the interesting questions are and speeds up your reading immensely. If you have to look up every word its going to take forever! These courses do go to a high level of interpretation and introduce you to excellent grammars and resources.
I am a full time minister and I do use the skills I picked up from these courses to write sermons. I don't bore the congregation with the detail of my study or hebrew or greek grammar though;) I do find that studying the Bible in original languages builds my faith and joy in the gospel.
You want to consider the cost of the additional resources though too - grammars, dictionaries, original language commentaries and the like. Most of the value comes from consulting them!
If you do study these courses then you've got a good grounding in how the languages work and the grammar and how to find answers to your questions. You may as well go ahead and spend a month with the books by John H. Dobson so you can read it all well too!
גַּם־חֹשֶׁךְ֮ לֹֽא־יַחְשִׁ֪יךְ מִ֫מֶּ֥ךָ וְ֭לַיְלָה כַּיּ֣וֹם יָאִ֑יר כַּ֝חֲשֵׁיכָ֗ה כָּאוֹרָֽה
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Mark Barnes said:
I may not think that
I paid $200 for the first version, which, as has been pointed out, was obsolete nearly 1 month later when Logos 5 came out due to the Hebrew Morphology that was required for mimicking the example filters in the videos. I believe I may have been the first one to report this, because when I called to explain the issue, they were unfamiliar with it, and I was told that it would either be updated or I could return it. I chose to keep it and came up with a work around using the new (at that time) Hebrew morphology, so that I could still benefit from the examples. There was only one example that could not be imitated (at the time), having to do with a filter for the definite article, which was far more frustrating then, when my understanding of Hebrew was in it's infancy.
However, I like others, was expecting a steeper discount, since, as the table of contents portray, there simply doesn't appear to be much NEW content to justify another $150.00. Personally, I was expecting something in the $75-$100 range. Now I'm also a little gun shy concerning the Video training for the Lexham Discourse Greek New Testament, which is a similar situation. At least that one (strategically?) has been locked into a bundle with an 8 hour class on Philippians to soften the blow.
I think I will wait and see some feedback once the new product ships and determine how much actual video time is brand new.
Logos 10 | Dell Inspiron 7373 | Windows 11 Pro 64, i7, 16GB, SSD | iPhone 13 Pro Max
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James Taylor said:
However, I like others, was expecting a steeper discount, since, as the table of contents portray, there simply doesn't appear to be much NEW content to justify another $150.00.
Have you used Mobile Ed courses before? I ask because the format is so much better than the previous format, and therefore there would be benefit in that by itself.
Of course, if you've already completed the original course, and can remember the content well, then there may not be much point in upgrading.
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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Mark Barnes said:
Of course, if you've already completed the original course, and can remember the content well, then there may not be much point in upgrading.
That's kinda my thinking. I'd like to be told what the specific new content is. I get that it will be a better studying experience but I think I've really well integrated and learned the other content. $150 would buy plenty of good books etc.
My post above reflects that I think the course is very much worth owning if you want to study it though.
גַּם־חֹשֶׁךְ֮ לֹֽא־יַחְשִׁ֪יךְ מִ֫מֶּ֥ךָ וְ֭לַיְלָה כַּיּ֣וֹם יָאִ֑יר כַּ֝חֲשֵׁיכָ֗ה כָּאוֹרָֽה
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Mark Barnes said:
Have you used Mobile Ed courses before
Yes I have about 30 of them at this point and I can certainly see the value of the suggested readings and quizzes to help further and grain the content from the original course into my mind although I do remember and use it still. But thanks for pointing out that important difference for me to consider
Logos 10 | Dell Inspiron 7373 | Windows 11 Pro 64, i7, 16GB, SSD | iPhone 13 Pro Max
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James, you probably have figured out the definite article VF, (or you may have provided me the formula!) but for those that have not, I posted a suggested work around in the FL Visual Filters Group. You need to be a member and then go to documents.
The original videos were not perfect, some of the examples became out-dated quickly because it was based on L4 and the AFAT morphology. Much of Heisner's examples were tied to the additional tags that the AFAT morphology provided, causing frustration. Some suggested work arounds could've been provided years ago, but they were not. However, to say the entire set was obsolete shortly after the initial release is an overstatement. I am not aware of any filters or example in the Greek videos that cannot be duplicated using L6.
Having a companion text with the upgrade can be really useful, along with it being in the Mobile Ed format.
The Hebrew update looks more interesting after viewing the sample videos. For me, I got out of the original videos what I wanted to, have figured out work arounds for the AFAT based Visual Filters, and will not upgrade at the discount price. Not that I think it is unfair, I just have better use for the $.
It is unrealistic to think that any "How to use Logos" videos will not become dated. That is the nature of software and how to videos. Use the videos to learn how with L6 so you can adapt and still use the tools as Logos continues to develop.
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John Fidel said:
Having a companion text with the upgrade can be really useful, along with it being in the Mobile Ed format.
This is an very valuable difference. I still have dozens of hand-written notes that I took from the first videos so having them in a printed and searchable format is significant.
Using adventure and community to challenge young people to continually say "yes" to God
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John Fidel said:
to say the entire set was obsolete shortly after the initial release is an overstatement
Yes, I agree, I probably could have used a better word, to describe how a relatively new user (at that time) would feel when they try to follow along with a resource that costs hundreds of dollars, which no longer worked for several Hebrew examples (at least initially) without knowing how to work around the issue. Here's why...
1. There was no mention of the limited functionality or work around on the product page.
2. The customer service/tech support offered no suggestions of a work around.
3. There was no mention (at that time) of a link to the forums/wiki on the product page or by customer service/tech support stating where a work-around had been posted.
This highlights what many have described as a communication breakdown between product development>marketing>sales>support.
HOWEVER...
As I've said before, I tremendously benefited from the videos and content regardless of these issues, and still utilize the knowledge and tips/filters that were described. And as Mark mentioned, the added quizzes, transcripts, suggested readings, etc. plus additional content (however limited it may or may not be) may still result in me purchasing the update. I just hoped to spend a little less for it.
Logos 10 | Dell Inspiron 7373 | Windows 11 Pro 64, i7, 16GB, SSD | iPhone 13 Pro Max
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James,
The comments on my post were not directed toward you specifically. I apologize I was not clear in that. I was responding to some of the posts in the thread in general. I agree with your comments above.
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I remember seeing a section for literary context, historical context, etc. I do not see that now. Was that taken out of the course.
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Robert Peters said:
I remember seeing a section for literary context, historical context, etc. I do not see that now. Was that taken out of the course.
We updated the outlines on the product page to match more accurately the unit titles of the courses. LA161 does still have segments on the historical, literary, and cultural contexts in the unit on context. The courses are long with lots of segments, so we decided not to include all the segment titles on the product page outlines.
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As soon as someone downloads this update (and takes some time to use it), would you mind providing details to those of us who own the previous version? I'm trying to determine whether it is worth $150 to upgrade. Thx!
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JH said:
As soon as someone downloads this update (and takes some time to use it), would you mind providing details to those of us who own the previous version? I'm trying to determine whether it is worth $150 to upgrade. Thx!
I would be interested, too, but I'm not sure I'll wait to hear before I order. Mobile Ed. courses come under the 30-day return policy, don't they?
Pastor, Cornerstone Baptist Church, Clinton, SC
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Why does this product emphasize that it is learn to use Biblical Greek and Hebrew with LOGOS 6? What does that really mean?
1. Does it mean that the product is obsolete once Logos 7 comes out?
2. Does it mean that it will function under Logos 7 but not completely until another upgrade is paid for?
WHY did you ADD "with Logos 6" to the product? What does it mean? How is this mobile course different than others? When one orders a mobile course, I suspect it will be useful in future versions of logos. Is that not the same with this one? Please respond.
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I would suspect they included L6 in the title to clarify. The previous version didn't make a distinction in the title, and some people were upset that part of the Hebrew section no longer tracked with the toolset after the next major release (due to a shift in the engine). We can't expect instruction tied to software will forever remain valid in every detail. I've been a custome since their earliest releases in the early 90's, and don't expect any training today would apply to Logos 1 anymore than I expect it to apply completely to Logos 12 in its entirety. I do know that the general concepts will hold value into the future regardless of changes to Logos core and tagging that potentially could happen in the future. I felt some of those concepts alone were worth the price the first time around. I feel the $150 upgrade is worth the price I paid for having the current instruction tied to the current tools. I've only had the chance to watch some of the videos so far, so won't comment on changes.
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Miles, I reported a typo in the Faithlife LA161 group.0
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Mark said:
Why does this product emphasize that it is learn to use Biblical Greek and Hebrew with LOGOS 6? What does that really mean?
1. Does it mean that the product is obsolete once Logos 7 comes out?
2. Does it mean that it will function under Logos 7 but not completely until another upgrade is paid for?
WHY did you ADD "with Logos 6" to the product? What does it mean? How is this mobile course different than others? When one orders a mobile course, I suspect it will be useful in future versions of logos. Is that not the same with this one? Please respond.
One thing that distinguishes these courses from other Mobile Ed courses is that they use a more tools-based approach to learning. We included "with Logos 6" in the title because Michael Heiser and Johnny Cisneros use and teach you how to use the tools and features of Logos 6.
You will be able to view the courses in any future versions of Logos, and much of the content of the courses (segments discussing different grammatical forms and parts of speech, methods, context, word study fallacies, etc.) will apply regardless of the tools. Some of the practical "how to" aspects of the course may become dated if the specific tool or feature Mike and Johnny demonstrate goes through some significant develop for a future version of Logos.
Please let me know if you have any additional questions.
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JH said:
As soon as someone downloads this update (and takes some time to use it), would you mind providing details to those of us who own the previous version? I'm trying to determine whether it is worth $150 to upgrade. Thx!
I have not looked at the Hebrew yet, but the Greek is much better than the previous version. I will say since that last version I have taken 2 semesters of Greek and Hebrew. Again, this is not going to teach you the language (use this https://www.logos.com/product/32713/zondervan-biblical-languages-collection), but will teach you how to use Logos 6 for the Biblical languages. To me, it was worth the $150. The format follows a typical Mobile Education course.
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Mark said:
Why does this product emphasize that it is learn to use Biblical Greek and Hebrew with LOGOS 6?
As others have stated I was surprised how much of this video was USING Logos 6 to learn Greek/Hebrew. Think of it as a specialized, comprehensive Logos 6 training, the sole focus being getting better at one or the other language. It is not the same as going to a "Learning Greek/Hebrew" course!
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Bill Moore said:
Mobile Ed. courses come under the 30-day return policy, don't they?
Good question. Anyone?
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Yes, Mobile Ed falls under the same 30 day return policy
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I am working my way through the material in Learn to Use Biblical Greek.
Unit 2 Quiz will not scroll in the window, I can only access the first 6 questions.
I am running OS X El Capitan
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Given your mention of quiz issue, I decided to check real quick from iPad. In iPad it appears all quizes return a "not available" error. It's not a connectivity issue since I'm able to navigate the web.
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Bryan Tucker said:
all quizes return a "not available" error
Correct, as far as I know, quizzes are not mobile-device compatible.
Logos 10 | Dell Inspiron 7373 | Windows 11 Pro 64, i7, 16GB, SSD | iPhone 13 Pro Max
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I restarted Logos and now the quiz is working -Mr. Simple said:I am working my way through the material in Learn to Use Biblical Greek.
Unit 2 Quiz will not scroll in the window, I can only access the first 6 questions.
I am running OS X El Capitan
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Mr. Simple said:
I am working my way through the material in Learn to Use Biblical Greek.
Did you have the previous version of this course? If so, what are your thoughts on the newer one?
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Did not have the previous version. The new one is very accessible and well laid out from my perspective. I've worked through about 50% of the Greek Course. Have not dived into the Hebrew course as of yet.
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JH said:
Did you have the previous version of this course? If so, what are your thoughts on the newer one?
Speaking for Hebrew and the first 3 sections: The course material is much improved. This screenshot shows the first three sections, which are almost all new to this course, which I found to be very interesting and worth-while. It may seem strange to have a section on English words in a Hebrew course, but it helps establish general concepts of language.
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Benefits IMHO of the format change: 1)The content is tied to your FL account so you can't lose it! I hadn't finished the Hebrew disk when life intervened and I didn't complete it. Time passed, major release updates of Logos happened which made the content no longer fit the tool completely, and to top it off I can't find my disks. So upgrading to finish the Hebrew, and have it impossible to lose is great. 2)Accessible from within Logos. This allows interactivity of the content with your library. The text content has links to run saved searches, guides, etc. so you can see in detail what the instructors are talking about. There are links directly into your library for additional readings (28 different books) and "see also" content (33 books), which depend on you having those books in your library to benefit. Almost all are already in my library, so great. 3)There are quiz, midterm, and final exams (not accessible in the mobile apps) to help you gauge how well you are grasping the content.
Greek LA 161 vs the original: Since I've only watched a few of the videos in the new, I won't make a qualitative difference opinion. I might never do so since I've found my original notes but can't find the original DVDs. I can make a comparison in the amount of content in terms of time since my notes state length of each section in the original. The new LA 161 completely dropped the Greek alphabet content (13 minutes) since there's now an alphabet tutor directly in Logos 6. It also dropped the 20 minute "Behind the Scenes" section at the end of the original. The new version has an entirely new section titled "Application" and is 33 minutes long. The new version spends 40 minutes more than the original discussing interlinears, 23 minutes more on tools, and about 4 minutes more on context. Both versions spend about the same amount of time discussing verbs, but the distribution of time shifts. Some parts get a little more time at the expense of losing about 5 minutes coverage each for number, imperative, and infinitive. The new version spends a whopping 1 1/2 hours less discussing nouns and other parts of speech!! The new word studies section is 20 minutes LESS than the original. Doing the math, we see 1 hour 40 minutes of increased coverage of some topics, counterbalanced by 2 hours and 23 minutes of decreased coverage in others. You get LESS video content with the new version. Does this matter? Maybe, maybe not. Is it possible Johnny is able to communicate much more value in 43 minutes less? Maybe. Again, I'm not making a qualitative difference call yet on the Greek.
Hebrew LA 151 vs original: I haven't yet looked at the new. According to my original notes, I only completed somewhere around 3 hours of the nearly 8 1/2 hours of content. To me that first three hours of content was worth the several hundred Dollars I paid at full price when it first came out. Being able to complete the Hebrew side with instruction tied to L6 is worth the upgrade price to me.0 -
Bryan Tucker said:
Benefits IMHO of the format change: 1)The content is tied to your FL account so you can't lose it! I hadn't finished the Hebrew disk when life intervened and I didn't complete it. Time passed, major release updates of Logos happened which made the content no longer fit the tool completely, and to top it off I can't find my disks. So upgrading to finish the Hebrew, and have it impossible to lose is great. 2)Accessible from within Logos. This allows interactivity of the content with your library. The text content has links to run saved searches, guides, etc. so you can see in detail what the instructors are talking about. There are links directly into your library for additional readings (28 different books) and "see also" content (33 books), which depend on you having those books in your library to benefit. Almost all are already in my library, so great. 3)There are quiz, midterm, and final exams (not accessible in the mobile apps) to help you gauge how well you are grasping the content.
Greek LA 161 vs the original: Since I've only watched a few of the videos in the new, I won't make a qualitative difference opinion. I might never do so since I've found my original notes but can't find the original DVDs. I can make a comparison in the amount of content in terms of time since my notes state length of each section in the original. The new LA 161 completely dropped the Greek alphabet content (13 minutes) since there's now an alphabet tutor directly in Logos 6. It also dropped the 20 minute "Behind the Scenes" section at the end of the original. The new version has an entirely new section titled "Application" and is 33 minutes long. The new version spends 40 minutes more than the original discussing interlinears, 23 minutes more on tools, and about 4 minutes more on context. Both versions spend about the same amount of time discussing verbs, but the distribution of time shifts. Some parts get a little more time at the expense of losing about 5 minutes coverage each for number, imperative, and infinitive. The new version spends a whopping 1 1/2 hours less discussing nouns and other parts of speech!! The new word studies section is 20 minutes LESS than the original. Doing the math, we see 1 hour 40 minutes of increased coverage of some topics, counterbalanced by 2 hours and 23 minutes of decreased coverage in others. You get LESS video content with the new version. Does this matter? Maybe, maybe not. Is it possible Johnny is able to communicate much more value in 43 minutes less? Maybe. Again, I'm not making a qualitative difference call yet on the Greek.
Hebrew LA 151 vs original: I haven't yet looked at the new. According to my original notes, I only completed somewhere around 3 hours of the nearly 8 1/2 hours of content. To me that first three hours of content was worth the several hundred Dollars I paid at full price when it first came out. Being able to complete the Hebrew side with instruction tied to L6 is worth the upgrade price to me.Thanks for the review, Bryan! That helps. I am still on the fence about upgrading - I will give it some more thought.
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JH said:
Thanks for the review, Bryan! That helps. I am still on the fence about upgrading - I will give it some more thought.
Contrary to what I said above, I'm more on the fence about ordering, awaiting more reviews. I guess my nagging concern, whether justified or not, is treating languages like a puzzle to be put together.
Pastor, Cornerstone Baptist Church, Clinton, SC
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Intrigued about what you mean:
Bill Moore said:nagging concern... treating languages like a puzzle to be put together.
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Hi Dale. It's hard for me to explain, perhaps a feeling arising out of my seminary Greek and Hebrew grammar and exegesis classes which felt more like crossword puzzles or putting together broken pieces of pottery than learning languages that were very much alive to the people of their day. Suffice it to say that I am eagerly looking forward to any feedback which users may have as to how the course is aiding their own understanding of biblical Hebrew and Greek as languages.
Pastor, Cornerstone Baptist Church, Clinton, SC
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I purchased the previous course and was on the fence, but when i saw what was in both course i was overly impressed! we must remember the goal of this course is to teach functional greek, that is the functions of nouns, verbs, prepositions, etc with the goal of doing better exegesis. Since, it is a mobile ed course they do not have to spend as much time explaining because they can link to other textbooks and can focus on how to use those principles for exegesis. let me first start with the hebrew course. As mention above this is a completely redesign of the previous course. A couple features I liked that came out was the preposition section, waw consecutive, and the discourse section. As I mentioned it is possible to spend less time explaining and more time in application because this is a mobile ed course. Johnny Cisneros does more of a coaching approach then a lecturer this works great for logos mobile ed!
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Bill Moore said:
It's hard for me to explain, perhaps a feeling arising out of my seminary Greek and Hebrew grammar and exegesis classes which felt more like crossword puzzles or putting together broken pieces of pottery than learning languages
This course is not like that.
As I said earlier, I can only speak for the Hebrew course. The first four units (which is where I am now) deal with language theory, first in English then in Hebrew. One thin Dr Heiser continually emphasizes is the need to think and to ask questions while conducting word studies. He deals extensively with the sort of fallacies that appear to make up the sort of language instruction you described in your post.
So far, this course bears little resemblance to the original videos.
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Jack Caviness said:
This course is not like that.
As I said earlier, I can only speak for the Hebrew course. The first four units (which is where I am now) deal with language theory, first in English then in Hebrew. One thin Dr Heiser continually emphasizes is the need to think and to ask questions while conducting word studies. He deals extensively with the sort of fallacies that appear to make up the sort of language instruction you described in your post.
So far, this course bears little resemblance to the original videos.
Thanks, Jack. That is good to hear. And I'm probably being unfair to my seminary courses. I know that's not what the professors intended, but the somewhat rushed way instruction is presented (we did Mounce's grammar in one semester) doesn't give one time to feel at one with the language.
Pastor, Cornerstone Baptist Church, Clinton, SC
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I didn't get to take ancient language classes when I was in college. I purchased the hebrew/greek DVD's a few years ago and it helped me with the basics. I have the new video files and in my opinion, there is much more content on the new release. I enjoy learning in this new format.
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