Over $300 for L7 Features? Really?

Dwayne Justice said:

I will definitely miss my free Office 365 after I lose my student status. However, as far as office is concerned, I'm happy with just the desktop version. I could go back to using Office 2010 and still be perfectly content. The only thing I really even use office for is to type my college papers. So, once I'm done with my Masters degree and am no longer a student, I really won't have a use for office period, especially 365. Yep! Once I'm done with this degree I don't think I will pay for 365. On the other hand, I will probably keep LN for life!

Dwayne, since you have a Mac, I have to ask: have you tried Pages, Keynote, and Numbers? They're free, and have always provided everything I needed in terms of Documents, Presentations, and Spreadsheets. I'd be happy to help with your thoughts on them. I just never could justify paying for Microsoft Office when the free apps could accomplish everything I needed them to do. If it's an issue of format, Pages can export documents as a .doc or .docx and, of course, can also read them.

Excellent. That WILL be beneficial. Thank you

" rel="nofollow">Keep Smiling 4 Jesus said:

Graham Criddle said:

Batman said:

The one thing I have not determined, is whether or not the Full Feature would be available offline. Maybe the entire Now thing is not even available offline.

The majority of features included in the Full Feature set are available offline - unsurprisingly those which require access to Faithlife servers - such as the Bible Browser - are not.

Logos wiki for Logos 7 => Online Only has list of features that require online access to Faithlife servers, which are a few more than Logos 6 Online Only

Keep Smiling

Batman said:

I give Bob a very hard time-- NOT to make his life miserable, but, because this is a Bible based company, it does need to be held to the best possible standards. I have been impressed with how he comes out and tries to explain some issues. I'm not thrilled with his "we are a business and we are here to make money" response, however. Much of everything else I have never had an issue with. I don't even take issue with making a profit. A workman is worth their hire, after all. It's how it comes off. I try very hard not to make it sound as if I am judging him and esp. his motivations. It does not always look like that, I know. There is a super extreme fine line on his part and on mine. When he addresses the financial issue, it seems as if he ignores the fact that Logos is working with the Bible...

If we are using the Bible check these out:

1 Tim 5:17-18

Gal 6:6

1 Cor 9:9-14 & 18-19 (notice in this passage Paul talks about even though he should get paid, he chooses not to. This is the "Justice"[that's me] Paraphrase of course)

Luke 10:7

1 Thes 5:12-13

Rom 4:4

If you are an OT guy:

Deut 25:4

Numb 18:8-32

Bob Pritchett said:

...even owners seem to want core engine upgrades, support for new OS releases, etc. -- forever. (And at already 25 years old -- a pretty old software company! -- with many customers who've been with us 10+ years, it's not hard to see even basic maintenance / support being a significant 'forever' cost.)

I think you're saying some of this with a smile, Bob - I hope so. Because I'd be really nervous if I got the feeling Faithlife considered this basic maintenance a bother.

For all its disadvantages, a well-cared-for paper library can last many lifetimes. Your users have trusted that our investment in a digital library will be a durable one, too. Faithlife needs to be absolutely unwavering in its commitment to keeping our resources accessible as far into the future as humans can manage. Purchasing a Logos resource instead of a paper one is, in part, an expression of confidence in the integrity of Faithlife and its continued viability.

That's a key driver of all the angst that haunts these forums - the massive amounts of money we've invested in intangible assets. We're much more heavily invested than users of other software. We're generally not in high-paying jobs, and are making our purchases with our personal funds (i.e, "the office" doesn't buy our expensive software for us). We're taking a chance on digital books because of the promise they show, but Faithlife always needs to be aware of the risk your users are taking when we trust you to do right by us. Please don't even in jest give us reason to think you might not always do that.

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus;

NOT an easy thing to do. None of anything you posted do I disagree with. Very few of us get the overall financial cost to operate an endeavor such as Logos. I've never disputed that. 
My dispute is more along the lines of what the primary goal is, and making it secondary, What comes to mind is, "What does it profit a man to gain the whole world, but lose his own soul?" I'm NOT saying he did. NOT even coming to suggesting it, either. 

OF COURSE a company, ANY company, MUST be profitable, and remain so, to stay in business and keep the doors open and project running. MAYBE a few serious haters (I've never hated Logos to this degree) would prefer seeing Logos close down. Bob is a smart business man. No doubt about that. Maybe through trial and error. Maybe just his God-given talent. Maybe both. 
I DO want Logos to succeed. Always have. Even when I get deeply aggravated. And angry. 

What grates me the wrong way, I suppose, is that we all know it takes a lot of money to continuously work on upgrades. While the intent may be good, the fact of the matter is, it also makes the company look bad. Concession here: I don't know, but, I suspect, a slow down on upgrades would allow the projects to be worked on; just not as rigorously, and still be profitable. Maybe I'm wrong. I hate how HP puts out what seems like more types of ink than they put out printers. They are profitable; but, would they be more profitable with much less ink (and printer) choices? 

Anyway, there's a whole lot of behind the scenes costs we will NEVER be able to see, that perhaps even Bob never sees, that maybe only God totally sees. I've always maintained I hope Bob is in this for the right reasons. I will never know for sure. It's none of my business. I just pray it is. And while this sounds a bit naive, because it does not work this way in reality-- in totality, but it can; I think that when we do keep our primary focus the primary focus, God will take care of the rest. This however, does not exclude our responsibility to make sure the secondary goal is met, too. 
This is where I fear for myself, attempting to present my arguments in such a manner so as to not cross the line of judging. I often times fear I do. My prayer is, I had not. 

GREAT insights, thanks for digging this 411 up. Hopefully, it helps us keep things in perspective.

sorry, I meant ahead, Logos thinks it is a day ahead.

Dwayne Justice said:

Andrew Zoll said:

My pleasure! I live to teach! Feel free to message me on Faithlife if you want to chat more. Haha! Nice edits!

Hey, Andrew. I do have a question for you, but the FaithLife profile I get to by clicking on  your name is a group page or something. I don't see anywhere to leave you a message or to add you as a friend or anything like that. However, I don't really know what I am doing on FaithLife because I have only been on there like 3 times. I assumed it was something similar to Facebook but I guess not. Anyway, since I can't figure out how to leave you a message on FaithLife (Faithbook?) I will leave it here even though it has nothing to do with what has been going on in this particular forum. I am having an issue with Logos thinking it is a day behind from my computer's date. See the below image:

Do you know what I need to do to fix this? Thank you, sir. If you want to get this off of this forum that was made for a different topic, you can always find me on FaithLife since I can' seem to find the correct profile for you. Thank you ,sir.

Hey Dwayne,

So that we don't commandeer this thread, I'll email you on your email you have on your faithlife page. 

curious...did your Bronze upgrade INCLUDE the L7 Full Features...or were the L7 Full Features a separate purchase from the Bronze upgrade?

My Bronze upgrade included the L7 full feature set, just like all the base package upgrades done separately from Logos Now.  Without doing a base package upgrade, the full feature set would cost me just over $308.  Upgrading to Bronze (again) would give me the FFS plus a few books for a total of $310, so it wouldn't make sense for me to purchase the FFS by itself.

Not sure who you are asking, but, in my case, I made a mistake. I was thinking Logos Now was Logos Cloud. So, oops. But, that was on me. 
Ok, with that editorial said, I passed on purchasing the Full Features. They are in fact separate. With Bronze in my case, it would have been an additional $200. So I upgraded to Bronze 7, and went with Now for the Full Features. Since I did make an error in this, I was considering purchasing FF later. That would not make sense, because I would be paying twice. Now that I am understanding better, I think I can give an even more beneficial point of view.

Pro's for purchasing the FF  UPGRADE with Bronze: 
1. You "own" it. 
2. Once it's paid for, you don't have to pay again, unless you decide to upgrade to 8. (I figure about two years. I don't know, and I'm sure, from a business standpoint, Logos won't tell either).
Con's for purchasing:
1. It's $200 up front. 
2. If Logos Logos pushes the upgrade sooner, you've "lost" money. 

Pro's for Renting, via Now.
1. If you don't find the features worth the money, you can cancel. As far as I understand (and to be honest, apparently I am not doing well on the "understanding" part, very well) within 30 days and get a refund. If not, you're still only out $100, instead of the full amount. (If one is going full purchase as opposed to upgrading, this option becomes a bigger point. 
2. At approximately $100/year I feel as if I'm somewhat "upgrade proof". Future upgrades I am assuming will be similar to 7, If I choose to purchase "equivalent" Bronze packages, it would be for the books, and if I'm unimpressed, I can simply pass, without "missing out", or feeling like I should. 
3. If I continue annually and without interruption, I can break up payments for about $100/yr. as opposed to getting hit with a heavier fee. 
4. Special discounts, preview of resources (and Logos 8 as they become available), and at this point, it is unclear from the rep I spoke with, but at least one Mobile Ed course is included. Whether it stays or gets rotated, or disappears after 30 days, or longer, I am not sure yet. But having access to that info is worth the annual fee (for the first year, anyway). 
Cons:
1. If I stop payments, I revert back to basic Bronze 7. My money spent evaporates. 
2. Payments are every year; even if there's no upgrades. 

I'm beginning to take advantage of new video training. I think those are available for Now subscribers only-- not totally sure. But, at this point, I'm pretty happy; even if I was thinking I'd get access to a zillion other resources I'd never realistically use.

Carey G. Pearson said:

curious...did your Bronze upgrade INCLUDE the L7 Full Features...or were the L7 Full Features a separate purchase from the Bronze upgrade?

The pricing structure has become rather confusing, I've noticed, I am recommending people call, and see what the rep comes up with. If it's cheaper online, go that route, if it's cheaper with the phone rep, go that route, if it's a matter of it's becoming too much to deal with, don't upgrade, just to upgrade. In my case, it was too good to pass up; so I did the Bronze 7 upgrade and then I chose Now. 
I think in the end the cost evens out. With full purchase, you keep everything. With renting, they give a few extras that may be enticing enough to go that route; but, basically, either pay full price upfront, or, pay it annually. 

Bob Price said:

Carey G. Pearson said:

Bob, you speak of upgrading to Silver which includes the L7 Full Features......do I understand that correctly?

Yes, for purposes of this discussion, whenever I refer to a base package upgrade, I'm assuming the "regular" upgrade, which includes the library and the full feature set.  I realize that it would be cheaper to subscribe to LN and then add a library, but I was evaluating complete upgrades.  

This thread is long and cannot read it all.  My question is simple:

If one owns L7 Platinum Standard, does he also own the full feature data sets except for what comes only in LN?  OR if he wants to own the data sets, does he need to purchases the full feature sets?

Thanks

Mark

THanks Mark

I just purchased the base package and got the email and saw the download etc. 

But the library still says Platnum L6 GK and LN

I have LN.  But I purchased the L7 Platinum standard base library (at least I think I did).  But I think you answered my question.  The email said I purchased the L7 Platinum library.  And I guess that is the reason why I had to pay a bit more if I wanted to OWN the full features.

I think that could have been clearer.  I purchased both the library and full features separately but I wish I could have done it in one purchase.  I know now it was possible, just did not seem to be so easy.  I thought I had researched this for a week before purchasing. 

At any rate, I guess I got what I wanted, the Library and the features (to OWN) and I still have LN.  That was what I wanted.

BUt why does the library still say Platinum L6 GK and LN?

Mark Barnes said:

I guess that the system thinks that the old L6 Platinum is 'bigger' than your new L7 Platinum library, and therefore that's the one that's chosen.

That is a terrible system.  I predict they will scrap it one day.  It should reflect what one currently has or it will be extremely confusing to people in the future.  The about page should state what we own currently regardless of whether it was a downgrade or upgrade.

Mark, as usual, you have been most helpful.  Thanks a lot.

Mark said:

Mark Barnes said:

I guess that the system thinks that the old L6 Platinum is 'bigger' than your new L7 Platinum library, and therefore that's the one that's chosen.

That is a terrible system.  I predict they will scrap it one day.  It should reflect what one currently has or it will be extremely confusing to people in the future.  The about page should state what we own currently regardless of whether it was a downgrade or upgrade.

It may be useful, under the new system, to only display what feature package (Starter, Full and Now). Knowing resource library is sometimes helpful, but nearly impossible to show since it's the accumulation of library packages across denoms and versions that would be helpful, but can be quite large.

EDIT: Actually, that suffers from the same problem. It's the accumulation of features across versions that is useful to know. A snapshot of the current package doesn't always provide enough info.

Jack Caviness said:

Mark said:

BUt why does the library still say Platinum L6 GK and LN?

Seems to stick on the highest level package you have ever purchased—My says L5 Diamond although I have both L6 and L7 Platinum

Tell me please how Platinum L6 is higher than Platinum L7?

Jack Caviness said:

Mark said:

Tell me please how Platinum L6 is higher than Platinum L7?

 

Seems that you misread my post. I commented that my About Logos says L5 Diamond although I have both L6 and L7 Platinum. Diamond is the highest level package in those three versions of Logos; hence, it is the one indicated as my status.

It's strange that Logos hasn't gotten this straightened out for many of us, not that it really matters. Then again, if it doesn't matter, why is it listed? Mine still shows mine as Reformed Diamond L5 even though I later upgraded to Reformed Diamond L6. Still, it's all fairly meaningless to me. I doubt I will buy another expensive library. I chose Standard Gold for L7 because of three particular sets offered that I didn't have.

Jack Caviness said:

Mark said:

Tell me please how Platinum L6 is higher than Platinum L7?

 

Seems that you misread my post. I commented that my About Logos says L5 Diamond although I have both L6 and L7 Platinum. Diamond is the highest level package in those three versions of Logos; hence, it is the one indicated as my status.

No, Jack, I did not misread your post.  I appreciate your response, however.  Diamond is higher than Platinum.  That would be why your about page says L5 Diamond.

In my case, I went from L6 Platinum to L7 Platinum.  So the question again to anyone, how is L6 Platinum higher than L7 Platinum?

Todd Phillips said:

Or really they should have just added a licenses screen like Libronix had that showed all licenses and associated resources.

Good idea!

MJ. Smith said:

What obscure interlinears?

The reverse and 'normal' interlinears new to L7 are:

• RSVCE Apocrypha (reverse)
• NABRE (reverse)
• Vulgate (reverse and 'normal')
• Biblical Dead Sea Scrolls ('normal')

Whilst I wouldn't describe them as obscure, the first three are aimed specifically at Catholics, whilst the latter is for niche academic use. For a typical Protestant, they're not terribly attractive, but probably add about $40 to $50 of the cost.