ESV Permanent Text Edition 2016
Comments
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I don't have an ETA on when the update to the ESV will be finished on our end.
I can say owners of the Logos edition will receive those changes for free. As with any resource updates, once we re-publish the updated resource owners of the Bible will automatically receive a download of the updated Bible.
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My concern with all this is that the ESV is no longer an "essentially literal" translation. The editor's agenda clearly influenced their translation of Gen. 3:16. Why not leave it as it was and let the reader make their own conclusion. The ESV is now just another NIV. Too bad. I really liked the ESV.
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One verse?
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Kyle G. Anderson said:
I don't have an ETA on when the update to the ESV will be finished on our end.
Any possibility of interlinear with 2008, 2011, 2016 textual variants ?
Keep Smiling [:)]
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Kyle G. Anderson said:
I don't have an ETA on when the update to the ESV will be finished on our end.
Any possibility of interlinear with 2008, 2011, 2016 textual variants ?
THIS.
Logos has an option to really shine on this. The digital format should enable some kind of marker, or embedded commentary on changes like this.
While I think it should be part of the resource, it could be as simple as a note file that is automatically shared for all users.
Sarcasm is my love language. Obviously I love you. 0 -
Keith Larson said:
My concern with all this is that the ESV is no longer an "essentially literal" translation. The editor's agenda clearly influenced their translation of Gen. 3:16. Why not leave it as it was and let the reader make their own conclusion. The ESV is now just another NIV. Too bad. I really liked the ESV.
I mostly align theologically with the publishers of the ESV, and I can see why they translate some of the things they do. But I do wish they were a bit more neutral in the translation of some things instead of imposing a reformed perspective on those translations. I don't think I'll ever forget the Bible study discussion around Gen 3:16 the first time we went through it, but the change they're making (even though I agree with their interpretation) takes that fruitful discussion away by hiding some of the Hebrew nuance.
I don't know that ESV has ever tried to be literal the way the NASB has. Everyone is on the literal to dynamic equivalent spectrum, and I believe they always knew they shaded away from the literal side. They wanted to be as literal as possible while maintaining natural readability.
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TCBlack said:Kyle G. Anderson said:
I don't have an ETA on when the update to the ESV will be finished on our end.
Any possibility of interlinear with 2008, 2011, 2016 textual variants ?
THIS.
Logos has an option to really shine on this. The digital format should enable some kind of marker, or embedded commentary on changes like this.
While I think it should be part of the resource, it could be as simple as a note file that is automatically shared for all users.
We discussed something like this but unfortunately it does not look like it will be able to happen at this time.
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This is a helpful summary of the situation, including a link to the academic article (by Poh) on which the translation "contrary" is based:
http://www.dennyburk.com/four-quick-points-on-the-esvs-rendering-of-genesis-316/
(It's actually 5 points.)
FYI...
Donnie
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Kyle G. Anderson said:
We discussed something like this but unfortunately it does not look like it will be able to happen at this time.
If this has been answered before, my apologies. Will this version of ESV be a new resource, or will it completely replace the current ESV resource? I much prefer that it be a new resource. And, if it is, the text comparison tool will make the changes pretty apparent.
Donnie
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Donnie Hale said:Kyle G. Anderson said:
We discussed something like this but unfortunately it does not look like it will be able to happen at this time.
If this has been answered before, my apologies. Will this version of ESV be a new resource, or will it completely replace the current ESV resource? I much prefer that it be a new resource. And, if it is, the text comparison tool will make the changes pretty apparent.
Donnie
It will replace the current ESV resource.
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Logos 10 | Dell Inspiron 7373 | Windows 11 Pro 64, i7, 16GB, SSD | iPhone 13 Pro Max
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Kyle G. Anderson said:
It will replace the current ESV resource
Is that a requirement of the publisher? Or a FL decision? If the latter, can it be reconsidered? Obviously, I don't know all the implications.
Thanks for answering,
Donnie
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Donnie Hale said:Kyle G. Anderson said:
It will replace the current ESV resource
Is that a requirement of the publisher? Or a FL decision? If the latter, can it be reconsidered? Obviously, I don't know all the implications.
Thanks for answering,
Donnie
I can't go into all the details but essentially its the former.
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Will the High Definition versions from Faithlife also have the text update to this level?
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In the religious world of publisher-enforced translation, nothing like Libby and her CDs. Yawn.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Kyle G. Anderson said:Donnie Hale said:Kyle G. Anderson said:
It will replace the current ESV resource
Is that a requirement of the publisher? Or a FL decision? If the latter, can it be reconsidered? Obviously, I don't know all the implications.
Thanks for answering,
Donnie
I can't go into all the details but essentially its the former.
Dreaming of publishers allowing inline interlinears with textual variants: ESV, HCSB (CSB), NAB (NABRE), NASB (NASB95), NIV, NLT
Unfortunately, previously printed bibles and memorized verses do not automatically update to new "permanent" revisions so having textual variants available for use in Faithlife apps and applications would be appreciated by many.
Keep Smiling [:)]
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Denise said:
In the religious world of publisher-enforced translation, nothing like Libby and her CDs. Yawn.
I now believe that these posts are actually from a bot. Time to apply a Turing test...
[:)]
-Donnie
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Chicken Little, here.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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I'm not a fan of the changes they made to Gen 3:16 and 4:7 but all of the other changes seem to be just tweaks to get things closer to the original languages. Glad I just bought a print copy of the 2011 text. I was hoping Logos would provide the permanent edition as a separate text but alas, no. Here are more perspectives on the change for those interested.
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/jesuscreed/2016/09/12/the-new-stealth-translation-esv/
https://myonlycomfort.com/2016/09/08/genesis-316/
https://claudemariottini.com/2016/09/12/the-permanent-text-of-the-esv/
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Daniel Yoder said:
In light of the textual revisions, will a new edition of the ESV Study Bible be released? If so, will our Logos edition of the study Bible be updated to reflect the changes?
That is a reasonable expectation.
Using adventure and community to challenge young people to continually say "yes" to God
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So the new translation leads the reader to believe that God "tempts" women to sin via the curse. Unlikely.
God tempts no one to sin. James 1:13.
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Jennifer Jolene said:
So the new translation leads the reader to believe that God "tempts" women to sin via the curse. Unlikely.
God tempts no one to sin. James 1:13.
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Jennifer ... ChristianDiscourse.com is the forum's order to go sit in the corner.
But your forum image is quite apropo. I was impressed.
I suspect the ESV committee's antics with the silly 'perminent' and the comparison to the venerated KJV is a bit transparent. I know for sure at our church, the translation will be tainted due to forcing the wording so obviously. Much like the JW's.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Bruce Dunning said:Daniel Yoder said:
In light of the textual revisions, will a new edition of the ESV Study Bible be released? If so, will our Logos edition of the study Bible be updated to reflect the changes?
That is a reasonable expectation.
Thanks for the reply, Bruce.
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From @KateShellnut: The popular ESV Bible text will be updated and changing after all:
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James McAdams said:
From @KateShellnut: The popular ESV Bible text will be updated and changing after all:
That's quite the reversal.
Using adventure and community to challenge young people to continually say "yes" to God
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James McAdams said:
From @KateShellnut: The popular ESV Bible text will be updated and changing after all:
That's interesting. I'm actually kind of glad that they're willing to keep changing along with the language--so they can keep finding a sweet spot between dynamic and formal equivalence (perhaps. I know that's in the eye of the beholder).
However, I'm not sure the permanent text "issue" was the controversial one.
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Mr Gabriel, I agree with your last statement.
Though I thought their earlier reasoning was foolish, as well as their latest. They ref'd the KJV, even though the ESV would not be needed absent a new set of manuscripts a la Westcott. Now, they think they may wish to modernize the english, again presuming the monestaries have revealed the final desert manuscripts. Even the supporting denominations don't propose the present manuscripts are correct, and hope for earlier.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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James McAdams said:
From @KateShellnut: The popular ESV Bible text will be updated and changing after all:
Good to see.
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Kyle G. Anderson said:
It will replace the current ESV resource.
I hope this is not a final decision. Changes to a bible should not be viewed as an "update." Textual variation can and in many instances does effect interpretation. I bought this present translation of the original languages and I have it prioritized over all my other translations. I for one do not want these "updates," and should not be forced to except these variations in the text.
Meanwhile, Jesus kept on growing wiser and more mature, and in favor with God and his fellow man.
International Standard Version. (2011). (Lk 2:52). Yorba Linda, CA: ISV Foundation.
MacBook Pro MacOS Sequoia 15.4 1TB SSD
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Beloved said:
I hope this is not a final decision. Changes to a bible should not be viewed as an "update." Textual variation can and in many instances does effect interpretation. I bought this present translation of the original languages and I have it prioritized over all my other translations. I for one do not want these "updates," and should not be forced to except these variations in the text.
This is usually a matter of contract with the copyright owner not a choice Faithlife can make.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:
This is usually a matter of contract with the copyright owner not a choice Faithlife can make.
Kyle indicates that this is the case here at https://community.logos.com/forums/p/128654/850885.aspx#850885
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Let's keep the culprit clear ... it's the company that forces downloads. My other book companies don't.
What amazes me, is the religious ones used to view this sort of thing (rewordings) with a touch of 'I'll decide'. Even the DR had to tippy toe.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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There are a lot of verses that I heard growing up (KJV) that I thought I understood. but in my early 30's I learned that because of language barriers, I had misunderstood. It really bothered me that someone "changed the meaning" of the text on me.
I read somewhere that it was a good idea to read the bible through in different translations. it would cause you to say "wait a minute" I don't remember reading that! A lot of passages that I had used for proof tests, I realized did not prove the point I thought they did.
The proposed change in the passage Gen 3:16 has now caused me to did deeper into the text and caused me to wonder if I had come to this text with preconceived ideas the text did not support. I haven't come to a final conclusion yet, but being challenged is a good thing I believe!
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Kyle G. Anderson said:Donnie Hale said:Kyle G. Anderson said:
It will replace the current ESV resource
Is that a requirement of the publisher? Or a FL decision? If the latter, can it be reconsidered? Obviously, I don't know all the implications.
Thanks for answering,
Donnie
I can't go into all the details but essentially its the former.
Donnie Hale said:If this has been answered before, my apologies. Will this version of ESV be a new resource, or will it completely replace the current ESV resource? I much prefer that it be a new resource. And, if it is, the text comparison tool will make the changes pretty apparent.
Donnie,
I too prefer this option. I contacted Crossway Customer Service and they said the mechanics of the update lie with FL, I questioned that this is not my understanding and they encouraged me to contact Crossway through esvquestions@crossway.org. I crafted an email to give voice to my preference for them issuing a revised edition distinct from the present edition.
I encourage all who share our preference to write Crossway and urge them to provide this option if they are indeed responsible for this intended update path.
Meanwhile, Jesus kept on growing wiser and more mature, and in favor with God and his fellow man.
International Standard Version. (2011). (Lk 2:52). Yorba Linda, CA: ISV Foundation.
MacBook Pro MacOS Sequoia 15.4 1TB SSD
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I am now hopeful for a satisfactory resolution to this issue. I received the following response to my email from Crossway.
Thank you for your email. I have forwarded it on to our Bible department and they are looking into the possibility of discussing this with Logos. It could be some time before a final decision is made but we will see if there is a way to work out the licensing so that multiple editions are possible. Copyright and licensing questions do require that we contact a number of different people in most cases so we appreciate your patience as we work on this.
Meanwhile, Jesus kept on growing wiser and more mature, and in favor with God and his fellow man.
International Standard Version. (2011). (Lk 2:52). Yorba Linda, CA: ISV Foundation.
MacBook Pro MacOS Sequoia 15.4 1TB SSD
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The ESV® Permanent Text Edition® (2016) just downloaded for me as an update.
Genesis 3:16 To the woman he said, “I will surely multiply your pain in childbearing; in pain you shall bring forth children. Your desire shall be contrary to your husband, but he shall rule over you.”
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Rob said:
The ESV® Permanent Text Edition® (2016) just downloaded for me as an update.
Genesis 3:16 To the woman he said, “I will surely multiply your pain in childbearing; in pain you shall bring forth children. Your desire shall be contrary to your husband, but he shall rule over you.”
My ESV updated as well (but it still says the text is the 2011 version on the information panel). The update also messed up the alignment of all the visual filters (Corresponding Words, Addressee labels, etc).
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[:(]
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I really feel for the people who have been disturbed by some of the changes in the ESV. I checked Gen 3:16 also and it has indeed been "updated". Such changes over the years to modern Bibles have left me with little or no faith in them or the scholars that advocate for them. For many years I looked down on the King James Bible for its anachronisms, but for all that, today I trust it more than the collection of other Bibles I have in my Logos library. People may disagree with me and I mean no disrespect to anyone.
All this shows the importance of prioritizing our Bibles in our Logos 7 to accord with how we approach the authority of our preferred Bibles - as all Bibles are not equal nor will they ever be. Keep well Paul
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I haven't connected my laptop to the internet yet, so I still have the old readings. What I may do is copy the verses that are going to change and make them into a note so I can see them when reading down the road.
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TY For Noticing the visual filters problem.. I rarely feel the need to use them and would not have noticed for months... Let us hope that LOGOS will send an update for this also.. I have 4 ESV's including one audio version.. only one was updated.. the ESV audio Bible, the ESV Study Bible and the high definition ESV N.T. remained the same..
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In the text itself:
The Classic Reference Edition, English Standard Version® (ESV®)
Copyright © 2001 by Crossway Bibles,
a publishing ministry of Good News Publishers
All rights reserved.The Holy Bible, English Standard Version
Copyright © 2001 by Crossway Bibles,
a publishing ministry of Good News Publishers
All rights reserved.ESV® Permanent Text Edition® (2016)
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The old tried and true KJV is still the King. Pardon the pun.. corrections made to it (IMO) are badly misguided .. these so called updates have added nothing ever to the message which my soul received by and through the 'OL KJV.. I do read others but always find them inferior in quality of content and style.. I reiterate: I do read other versions but not with the view in mind of correcting the KJV.. No argument has ever proven to me the necessity to have to correct the King's Bible... They all seem to me to be arguments of emotion rather than substance.. Usually the complaint is that it is too hard to understand or read because the language is so archaic.. rarely is it ever pointed out to anyone that a beginning Bible reader needs to study any version anyway, so why not the king's English also.. The KJV says so many things soo much more accurately.. The modern English language simply lacks the verbal tools to equal the accuracy inherent in the King's English.. Why is it that new Christians are discouraged from learning the beauty and accuracy of a language which has never been equaled nor surpassed in the worlds of literature anywhere in the world or in any other language.. Though I am not KJV Only, I am most definitely KJV First.. it has never let me down.. yet the so called scholars of other versions have always done so inevitably..
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The modern English language simply lacks the verbal tools to equal the accuracy inherent in the King's English..
????
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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The old tried and true KJV is still the King. Pardon the pun.. corrections made to it (IMO) are badly misguided .. these so called updates have added nothing ever to the message which my soul received by and through the 'OL KJV.. I do read others but always find them inferior in quality of content and style.. I reiterate: I do read other versions but not with the view in mind of correcting the KJV.. No argument has ever proven to me the necessity to have to correct the King's Bible... They all seem to me to be arguments of emotion rather than substance.. Usually the complaint is that it is too hard to understand or read because the language is so archaic.. rarely is it ever pointed out to anyone that a beginning Bible reader needs to study any version anyway, so why not the king's English also.. The KJV says so many things soo much more accurately.. The modern English language simply lacks the verbal tools to equal the accuracy inherent in the King's English.. Why is it that new Christians are discouraged from learning the beauty and accuracy of a language which has never been equaled nor surpassed in the worlds of literature anywhere in the world or in any other language.. Though I am not KJV Only, I am most definitely KJV First.. it has never let me down.. yet the so called scholars of other versions have always done so inevitably..
There is much wisdom in what you have said Rev Dr Ortega.
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I don't want to be a party-pooper, but this thread is heading towards violating the Forum Guidelines (see points 1 & 2 here). Once we start debating the rights and wrongs of the KJV we get onto very emotive territory, and will be generating a lot more heat than light. I have some very strong views on both the KJV and the latest ESV changes , but they should be aired on christiandiscourse.com or in Faithlife groups, not here (and I don't get into online debates anyway - I prefer the face-to-face sort).
I'd respectfully ask those who want to debate these issues or air their views on what they perceive as the "real" Bible to do so in the appropriate place, and leave this thread so that we can find out what Faithlife is actually doing about the current ESV débâcle.
Running Logos 6 Platinum and Logos Now on Surface Pro 4, 8 GB RAM, 256GB SSD, i5
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Paul said:
I really feel for the people who have been disturbed by some of the changes in the ESV. I checked Gen 3:16 also and it has indeed been "updated". Such changes over the years to modern Bibles have left me with little or no faith in them or the scholars that advocate for them. For many years I looked down on the King James Bible for its anachronisms, but for all that, today I trust it more than the collection of other Bibles I have in my Logos library. People may disagree with me and I mean no disrespect to anyone.
All this shows the importance of prioritizing our Bibles in our Logos 7 to accord with how we approach the authority of our preferred Bibles - as all Bibles are not equal nor will they ever be. Keep well Paul
The KJV was "updated" and revised a number of times. The one most commonly used today dates from the 1790s.
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Ronald Quick said:
I haven't connected my laptop to the internet yet, so I still have the old readings. What I may do is copy the verses that are going to change and make them into a note so I can see them when reading down the road.
Ronald,
Please let us know if you are successful in your efforts. This will be much appreciated, at least by me. I didn't want to way in yesterday on this issue because I was too effected by the way things turned out.
The ESV woes peculiar as they are humorously justify my reluctance to have the edition (I would have said my, but this sadly seems not to be the case) "updated."
I hope what I have said will not be viewed as out of bounds for the forums, but just this little venting I think I'm due. I trust all the consequences of this "update" will be duly handled by FL soon.
Meanwhile, Jesus kept on growing wiser and more mature, and in favor with God and his fellow man.
International Standard Version. (2011). (Lk 2:52). Yorba Linda, CA: ISV Foundation.
MacBook Pro MacOS Sequoia 15.4 1TB SSD
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said:
