Selling Logos 4 in Bookstores?

A couple of days after downloading Logos 4 my family and I went to a large Christian Bookstore in Knoxville that was the CBA bookstore of the year not too long ago. I saw they still had Logos 3 on the shelves and went over to the software resource person and asked if they were going to carry Logos 4. She said she had never heard of it so I took her to the website and showed her a couple of videos. I told her I had managed two Christian bookstores for about 10 years and that I thought Logos was the best thing going. She called the store manager down to look at it and was pretty excited too.

Yesterday we went back to look at home school curriculum and I was surprised to see that they no longer had any Logos software. I didn't see the salesperson and didn't think to ask them while I was there why they no longer carried Logos which leads me to two questions.

1) Is Logos 4 available/going to be available to purchase in stores?

2) Have you all considered marketing it to the home school community?

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Comments

Michael Sullivan

When I upgraded to Logos 4, two Logos sales reps told me that Logos will only be selling Logos 4 through their website and phone service. I also heard that they are moving into the direction of being the sole distributor or products that use the Logos engine - sort of like what iTunes does with its apps.

Michael

Kevin Becker

Logos pulled out of the resellers before the launch of L4.

http://community.logos.com/forums/t/3988.aspx

http://community.logos.com/forums/p/2324/17856.aspx#17856

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/87945#Comment_87945

That seems to go against the direction of Logos wanting to be more widely adopted among the general US Christian community...

Michael Lyman

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/87949#Comment_87949

Kevin, Thanks for the links. I can understand Bob's logic but having worked in Christian Retail for a long time I believe having no presence in bookstores will hurt in the long run. For one thing I met many brand new Christians over the years working in bookstores, one was the flagship for the state of Nebraska and the other one was at the HQ for the Billy Graham Evangelistic Association, and the first place they come to begin their Christian journey is a Christian Bookstore. I sold many "starter" CD's to them and they greatly appreciated it. I think it would be wise to reconsider having a limited presence at least. Since the engine itself is free, a small collection priced between $50 and $100 would be a great idea. People who have seen Logos on the shelf for many years and no longer see it may assume it is no longer available and if they see the advantages of being digital I think you'll never realize the business you will not gain.

One other issue is that Logos never had an in-store rep come in and never came and did demonstrations at store sale events, etc that would have helped them a lot. Maybe they did and I was never aware of it. There is also part of the market that will NEVER go online to find something as good as Logos. I think the problem was marketing, not the stores themselves.

I would still like to see Logos pursue the home school market. Maybe I should look into the Ambassador program. If you all had a booth at home school conventions doing demonstrations I think you would do well. Also if you could partner with some home school curriculums like Alpha Omega you could really open up some doors for business.

Robert Pavich

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/87949#Comment_87949

That seems to go against the direction of Logos wanting to be more widely adopted among the general US Christian community...

From what Bob Pritchett said; the Christian bookstore route was just not panning out for Logos.

The "attrition" was very high (software that mysteriously disappeared and therefore Logos absorbed the loss) and the sales were very weak...it was never a large part of their market...so they decided to just severe the tie.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/87955#Comment_87955

I think they should push into Walmarts and other large retail chains, like the Purpose Driven books and other popular Christian titles. Many large retail stores (even some supermarkets) gladly stock paper Bibles for people to buy as gifts on special occasions... why not have Logos Bible software right next to the gift Bibles as another option, especially for people buying for more tech-savvy friends or loved ones?

And how about large bookstore chains like Barnes & Noble, Borders, Chapters? They already have a large Christian selection in each store. And B&N and Amazon are getting into ebooks...

The possibilities are boundless, if Logos wants to grow its audience.

Sean Boisen

2) Have you all considered marketing it to the home school community?

Yes, we are interested in the home school community. At this point our offerings are still quite limited, however. If you have specific suggestions as to how we might strengthen our offerings in this area, I'd be glad to hear them, or you can send them to suggest@logos.com.

Mike Childs

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/87953#Comment_87953

This is true. What's more, I have already seen people being steered away from Logos at Christian bookstores. This is going to hurt market share, and it is a gift to other Bible programs. At least that is my opinion.

There should be some entry level Logos packages available in every Christian bookstore - as a minimum.

Mark Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/87949#Comment_87949

That seems to go against the direction of Logos wanting to be more widely adopted among the general US Christian community...

You might interpret the move as some evidence that that is not Logos' direction. I think Logos knows that it isn't competing well against other programs that are targeted primarily at Christian lay people. Logos, from a pricing, content, and technology stand-point is above what most Christians in the pew are interested in. For many, public domain works and a few simple tools are all they ever want. For that reason Logos is putting effort into reaching people who have a much greater interest or need for in-depth Bible study, esp. with original language capability, and with modern, top-notch Biblical resources. Often word-of-mouth or a mention by a teacher or pastor counts more than a demo in a Christian book store. And in most cases you couldn't get a demo in a bookstore anyway, just a pretty box with a DVD inside.

The case can also be made that Christian bookstores are dying. People are more and more shopping on the Internet. Logos is trying to use social networking and its web presence to promote its product. I know that they have a challenge to get the word out, but they have the marketing figures to show that Christian bookstores were not productive for them.

Floyd Johnson

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/91513#Comment_91513

I would be interested in how many here got their first Logos product from a Christian Book Store - local or seminary? I know I did - after receiving a substantial Christmas gift from the church I was pastoring.

Blessings,

Floyd

Mark Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/91533#Comment_91533

I would be interested in how many here got their first Logos product from a Christian Book Store - local or seminary?

Bet you knew about Logos before you went to the bookstore to buy it. You could have gone online and ordered it if that was the only way available. More to the point: who learned about Logos for the first time at a bookstore?

BTW: count me as one who did not buy through a store, and learned about it through a publication.

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/91537#Comment_91537

More to the point: who learned about Logos for the first time at a bookstore?

I did - and it was version 1.0 [:D]

But, yes, I know what you mean.

SteveF

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/91533#Comment_91533

got their first Logos product from a Christian Book Store

A seminary student mentioned it to me in the early 1990's -- I think she was beta testing

My local Christian bookstore gave me a $10? (sampler) - they probably paid for it themselves - in the mid 1990's .

as I was a Commodore + Amiga user back then, I could not even install it until getting my first Windows 95 machine (in early 1998?).

My first purchases (yes, from a Bookstore) was a 2.0 "Level 3" plus the stand-alone "Lesson Builder."

There was NO internet to inform me of Logos existence -- except a few hard-to-access bulletin boards or extremely expensive AOL feeds.

Even "dial-up" in my town was "slow."

Unfortunately, even Level "3" only had a couple of up to date commentaries and dictionaries. It was mostly language materials (which I had not yet stated using) or public domain stuff "dressed up" in Logos technology.

I never really started to use Logos until our denominational Bookstore introduced me to the (purple coloured) 115 unlock Nelson Ultimate CD. Finally, more "up-to-date commentaries, dictionaries, background material etc. It was THAT CD which really helped me to 'take off" into Logos - land!

Bill Gordon

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/91547#Comment_91547

The increasing popularity of distance learning classes at seminaries is a great marketing opportunity for Logos. The company has the opportunity to become the theological library of choice for students.

Distance learning classes have many advantages over tradition education. Not having to quit your job, pack your belongings and move your family to a new state are just a few. However, there are disadvantages. One downside is that many students do not have access to a theological library. They are at a disadvantage when writing research papers. Logos 4 can eliminate this shortcoming. In fact, Logos can give a student an advantage over someone using a traditional library. A card catalog cannot complete with the kind of searches available in Logos 4. By the way, if you are a seminary student you need to get the Theological Journal Library volumes 1-12. When you refer to a journal article in a research paper it is far more impressive to your professor than referring to a Bible encyclopedia. I know because I have graded many papers.

Rosie Perera

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/91537#Comment_91537

More to the point: who learned about Logos for the first time at a bookstore?

I learned about it for the first time from a guy named Bob whose office was down the hall from mine and who was goofing around making some sort of Bible software thingy in his spare time. He ended up quitting his job and starting this company that makes Logos... [:)]

But I've seen the boxes loads of times in bookstores and if I hadn't had the inside knowledge of the product, that would have served to increase my familiarity with the name so that when I did eventually decide to buy something, Logos would have been what I'd Google to see if there was a way to download it if I couldn't find it in stores anymore. Now that it's no longer in stores, they're relying entirely on publication advertising or word of mouth to get new customers. I guess it's been working since they've gotten a whole flurry of new customers. But I still think there would be more who would only hear about it through their local Christian store. However, the cost of keeping up that distribution channel probably isn't justified for the few more customers that might come on board that way.

I think they'd do better to focus more attention on marketing to seminary students. Loosen up their licensing agreement so seminary libraries can provide it free for all students to use while in the library. Send more trainers to do demos at seminaries for the library staff and faculty. Send Morris Proctor around to do discounted MP seminars for seminarians.

Mark Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/91615#Comment_91615

Perhaps the Ambassador program will be fruitful. I think there are regional gatherings of Christians and Pastors that would be great places to show product and do demos if the right connections could be made, booths bought, etc. I've never seen a Logos booth or set-up at anywhere here in New England. I don't go to everything so may have missed it, but I think there are some direct sell opportunities that would get Logos out in front of people and whet their appetite for the product.

Paul Golder

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/91617#Comment_91617

I'm betting that Zondervan is going to "box" several different packages, and distribute them through the Family Christian Stores chain. Also they'll probably have them accessible through standard wholesale channels.

spitzerpl

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/91615#Comment_91615

I think they'd do better to focus more attention on marketing to seminary students. Loosen up their licensing agreement so seminary libraries can provide it free for all students to use while in the library. Send more trainers to do demos at seminaries for the library staff and faculty. Send Morris Proctor around to do discounted MP seminars for seminarians.

Those are some great ideas, Rosie.

Kevin Becker

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/91615#Comment_91615

I think they'd do better to focus more attention on marketing to seminary students. Loosen up their licensing agreement so seminary libraries can provide it free for all students to use while in the library. Send more trainers to do demos at seminaries for the library staff and faculty. Send Morris Proctor around to do discounted MP seminars for seminarians.

In the seminary I attended the main exegesis profs, the ones who teach OT and NT, Hebrew and Greek use the "other program." In fact one of them does training seminars for that program. So my impression is that to get students of this seminary you will need to get Logos in front of them in a real way, otherwise they will only see the value in the way their professors are doing things and then invest their money that way. I know there are many who can run both Logos and other programs beneficially but in seminary they are less likely because of not wanting to buy resources in multiple formats.

I once offered one of those profs to show any interested seminary students Logos and he expressed his doubts that any students would want to because no exegesis profs use it.

Rosie Perera

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/91729#Comment_91729

In the seminary I attended the main exegesis profs, the ones who teach OT and NT, Hebrew and Greek use the "other program." In fact one of them does training seminars for that program. So my impression is that to get students of this seminary you will need to get Logos in front of them in a real way, otherwise they will only see the value in the way their professors are doing things and then invest their money that way. I know there are many who can run both Logos and other programs beneficially but in seminary they are less likely because of not wanting to buy resources in multiple formats.

I once offered one of those profs to show any interested seminary students Logos and he expressed his doubts that any students would want to because no exegesis profs use it.

None of the exegesis profs at my seminary used Logos either. I'm not sure most of them were using Bible study software at all, but the one who I know was is a big Mac evangelist and got several of the other faculty members to switch to Macs. He used a certain other program which was the only thing going on the Mac at the time, but he was willing to sit down one day with me and a Logos sales rep who visited, to see a demo of Logos. At the time he wasn't suitably impressed to see it ever making inroads for serious exegetical use, but he was glad for the demo, as he had not been aware of Logos's capabilities at all prior to that. I suspect that Logos is strong enough now to go head-to-head with "that other program." But it still needs to do a lot to overcome the reputation it has among exegesis profs and users of "that other program" as being a lightweight Biblical languages product, mostly a digital library. And if there is still something it doesn't do well that "that other product" can do, it needs to remedy that situation, and then go after the exegesis profs as customers. Once they win them over, all the seminary students will come tumbling after, and they're the future pastors, who will recommend Logos to their congregations.... You see? The exegesis profs are the bottleneck.

Kevin Becker

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/91733#Comment_91733

The exegesis profs are the bottleneck.

I agree.

Robert Pavich

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/91735#Comment_91735

I haven't been to seminary but Lord willing, one day I will...

But....

The analogy to guitars is the same (I used to play guitar)

One of the reigning Kings of the Electric Guitar world is Gibson guitars and their flagship model is the Les Paul.

There are other makers who blow the doors of them in quality and value...BUT....

The stigma associated with the "secondary brands" lives on...you buy what is a much better guitar in quality and price, but spend your whole playing career saying...."....no...it's not a genuine Gibson Les Paul, but it's so much better...."

This is Logos' position...they must overcome the stigma of public opinion that (the other program) is "...the only program to use for serious exegesis of the text..." (to quote a current radio commercial)

that's a tough thing and in my mind, it only gets conquered through time and spreading the word by demonstration...the more Logos gets into the hands of those profs..the more chance they have of making inroads and ..showing people that things have changed.

Lynden O. Williams

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/91735#Comment_91735

One thing everyone is forgetting. The developing world is where christianity is spreading. We are now sending missionaries to Europe and North America to evangelize. This market is not being tapped into as it should.

Put the software on disks, have posters with the web address, give out demo cds, encourage people to copy and distribute them, with videos, and links to purchase the product. Many people who go into brick and mortar buildings to purchase products will see the disks, posters etc., and become familiar that Logos even exists.

Get ambassadors from several denominations, to market the product after being throughly trained. In the Bahamas, we have been hosting Morris to train persons about the software, for several years and the word does not seem to have gotten out past our denominations. Only a few persons who are not Seventh-day Adventists ever come. Many people go to Bookstores and purchase books.

Let potential customers who usepurchase via the web, have a box for the purchaser to give an account number or email address of the person who referred them, so that, that individual gets the credit.

In the help dialogue box on the softare, not only should it say "tell a friend" but rather "Tell a Friend:Get a Free Book". Make athe refer a friend prominent on the home page, with the option to turn it off, so that people will be more aware of it.

There are many "Christians" within the Bahamas, computers galore and internet a plenty. Most people do not have bandwidth caps, and this applies to 90% of the population, spread out over four islands.

We have other hard currency areas such as Cayman, Turks and Caicos, Bermuda, Puerto Rico among others. These areas are untouched.

Give serious attention to expanding the market beyond North America. That is my two cents worth.

Esther Jones

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/91737#Comment_91737

Just for another perspective:

I am a lay person--just interested in Bible study and can't afford all the paper books. I'm a widowed, working, homeschooling mom.

I bought my first Logos product as eBible, upgraded to L3, and now have L4 Bible Study library. Although I drool for higher libraries, I really do not need any original language stuff because it would be useless to me. If eBible had not been available, I would have gone to another product to find something that was within my price range at the time. I have given eBible as a gift often, and at least one of those who received the gift is saving up to invest in L4 at a basic level.

At one point, I received an email that marketed eBible for very cheap. That's when I bought several for gifts. So that might be an angle to look into. After purchasing eBible and falling in love, I then added the McArthur library and the Grudem Systematic Theology to it, one as a personal purchase, the other as a gift.

Mostly I use my L4 for personal bible study and as a Sunday School teacher.

If Logos is interested in the homeschooling community, something like eBible is a GREAT way to do it: low initial investment, good study tools, but just not quite enough--an incentive to upgrading (it looks like eBible is still available through Nelson)! Most homeschool families have a curriculum budget, and so would have maybe $100 to put down on a basic package. Market it through homeschool conventions, give a modicum of training to people like me, who are already homeschool parents and do it through seminars and booth sales, and also through the discount curriculum distributors. You will hit a lot of families who are already in the ministry and many who are like me; just love Bible study, teach Sunday School, and would love to be able to do so in a deeper way. You will also hit a lot of growing children who will be ministers, pastors and missionaries soon, and those who aren't will be serving in our churches.

I would be a willing guinea pig to taking L4 into homeschool conventions as a trained demonstrator...

Esther

J. Morris

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/91729#Comment_91729

While the argument for pulling out has been well explained (I still disagree) I for one would have never of heard of Logos and would have never become a Logos user without seeing and buying it in a Christian book-store.

Bob Schlessman

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/91733#Comment_91733

In the seminary I attended the main exegesis profs, the ones who teach OT and NT, Hebrew and Greek use the "other program." In fact one of them does training seminars for that program. So my impression is that to get students of this seminary you will need to get Logos in front of them in a real way, otherwise they will only see the value in the way their professors are doing things and then invest their money that way. I know there are many who can run both Logos and other programs beneficially but in seminary they are less likely because of not wanting to buy resources in multiple formats.

I once offered one of those profs to show any interested seminary students Logos and he expressed his doubts that any students would want to because no exegesis profs use it.

None of the exegesis profs at my seminary used Logos either. .............The exegesis profs are the bottleneck.

I guess the school I attended is an exception. I first heard about Logos while in Bible College while taking Greek (Logos 2 was the current version). Several professors and fellow students had it but I was on a very tight budget and couldn't afford it.. When I entered seminary, my Hebrew classes required the Logos software, and there was a very hefty student discount offered for a limited time at the start of the semester so I bought it. I've never regreted it. I love demonstrating it to people who have never heard of it.

The school is a very big supporter and user of Logos. They have had Morris Proctor Seminars at the school several times to give training. I don't think they are even aware that "the other program" exists.

steve clark

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/91756#Comment_91756

I for one would have never of heard of Logos and would have never become a Logos user without seeing and buying it in a Christian book-store.

ditto [:)]

Robert Pavich

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/91786#Comment_91786

Argument from pragmatism...we all have these feelings over things "...all I know is that I've had a sony VCR and it's never given me trouble so Sony is a reliable brand...."

But that's not the situation here....only Logos knows the significance of (or lack of) of CBS sales, and I'm sure that they made a business move based on hard evidence that made sense to them...

Rick

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/91786#Comment_91786

Me too!!!

eBible was the first Bible software that I ever bought. If it had not been in a bookstore, I probably would not be using it today. Over the years, I have upgraded to Scholar's.

Otto S. Carroll

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/91756#Comment_91756

My first Bible software was a competitors brand (no, not the "other" one but another one) I bought at a CBS in the mid 90's. It was few days later that I first learned about Logos, from reading a software comparison review in a Christian magazine. I then went to a different CBS to buy Logos (the first store didn't carry it) - I paid list price (I think $500) for Logos 2.0 Level 3. I found out a few days later I could have saved over $100 if I had bought it on-line. Seemed like all CBS's were charging higher (list) prices than on-line venues for Bible software at that time, so I stopped using them for Logos compatible software (except for entry level eBible packages at around $25 I gave as gifts).

David Wilson

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/91715#Comment_91715

While I agree on better marketting to seminary students, these also needs to better marketting to Christians looking for entry level software packages (whether they are new to Christianity or new to software). Logos misses out here as there is currently a need for someone with Logos to undo the marketting done by others and show the new entrant why they have bought the wrong software. It is a lot different from a few months ago when you could search enywhere on line and find Logos products among those offered by online stores - now search for "software" at an online Christian bookstore and you pull up everything EXCEPT logos products.

The current Logos base products are too expensive for entry level starters, as entry level people are really only trying to "test the waters" before going in. The risk is that now they willl most often enter different waters.

There are inexpensive Logos entry level packages out there, but again they are low profile and difficult to find unless you already know they exist. The new Nelson eBible products for one, including potentially some of the more specialized entry level collections listed on the logos site:

http://www.logos.com/products/details/5848 http://www.logos.com/products/details/5833

But also the Collegeville package : http://www.logos.com/products/details/5197 at $24.95

Not much in content scope but a way for a new user to learn the ropes and grow to want more....

Nelson even did a free entry level package a few years ago to get people started with a few key resources - all in Logos 3 of course.

But just imagine the cost to Logos of phone support for all these new users who need help getting up and running..... would have to be a massive loss leader.... as long as the rest of us were willing to pay higher prices for our new pre-pub resources, it MIGHT work.... but so far it has not worked, hence the pull back.

Selling software in Bookstores is not something that has seemed to work well in general. Of course there will be a few exceptions who have been introduced that way. Essentially it has been marketting to the wrong audience. Most bookstore browsers are not into computers that much, and bookstore owners cannot (or do not) help them much when they run into difficulties. More people seeking Bible software shop for it on-line. Unfortunately many do so via on-line book sellers and Logos is not there anymore, just the competition.

In the three (physical not virtual) Christian Bookstores in our city, all have a small amount of software, all very old stock (eight to ten years old) except for GLO which all have, and seems they are destined to keep, as it is an expensive black box to all except one store who has a demo (but on an old computer that can hardly handle it).

Does need a rethink - physical Christian Bookstores are not good at marketting software of any kind - virtual Christian Bookstores have software but now it is almost ALL the competition. The Logos site has a good profile but starts at a level many thing too expensive for an "entry level" they want to try. That leaves only word of mouth from existing users ? Well that can work for a small and specialized audience for a while.......

Suggest there be a new, free TRIAL Logos 4 package to download (not until the current support waves for Logos 4 are over though !!! ) with enough titles to make it interesting, where all except a few basic public domain titles expire after say three months (it takes that long to get up the learning curve unless you have enough time to put a major focus on learning just the new software). Couple that with better marketting to this group of new users of perhaps a few less expensive entry level packages would tend to get more users started on their collections......

Mark Watson

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/91533#Comment_91533

I would be interested in how many here got their first Logos product from a Christian Book Store - local or seminary? I know I did - after receiving a substantial Christmas gift from the church I was pastoring.

Blessings,

Floyd

I bought Logos 2.0 at a discount Christian Bookstore. Along with several of the eBible collections. Especially the Author's LifeWorks Collections because it was much more economial than buying print books.

Also I gave away to a church I pastored for several years, 10 boxes of the eBible collections which had Bible Dictionaries, Concordances, and several versions of the Bible for $19.99 which was much cheaper than the print books. Bible studies with these people became a pleasure because they could do homework for the classes much easier and were excited to learn how to study the Bible for themselves!

Keep the low priced base packages and sell them in the Christian Bookstores. But educate the persons who sell these products.

Rosie Perera

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/91858#Comment_91858

...better marketting to Christians looking for entry level software packages (whether they are new to Christianity or new to software).

...now search for "software" at an online Christian bookstore and you pull up everything EXCEPT logos products.

There are inexpensive Logos entry level packages out there, but again they are low profile and difficult to find unless you already know they exist. The new Nelson eBible products for one, including potentially some of the more specialized entry level collections listed on the logos site:

http://www.logos.com/products/details/5848 http://www.logos.com/products/details/5833

But also the Collegeville package : http://www.logos.com/products/details/5197 at $24.95

Suggest there be a new, free TRIAL Logos 4 package to download (not until the current support waves for Logos 4 are over though !!! ) with enough titles to make it interesting, where all except a few basic public domain titles expire after say three months (it takes that long to get up the learning curve unless you have enough time to put a major focus on learning just the new software). Couple that with better marketting to this group of new users of perhaps a few less expensive entry level packages would tend to get more users started on their collections......

Excellent observations and suggestions, David!

Floyd Johnson

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/91858#Comment_91858

But also the Collegeville package : http://www.logos.com/products/details/5197 at $24.95

Okay - you convinced me. I placed my order.

Blessings,

Floyd

Bob Schaefer

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/91832#Comment_91832

I think there's a strong case to be made for: (1) Creating a very inexpensive (maybe even free to download) collection of resources, and (2) getting that collection in every Wal-Mart, Target, and Barnes & Noble.

I first encountered Logos as a college student, when I picked up what was essentially a 2.x starter package I found at a mainstream (i.e., non-Christian) store. I imagine it was an eBible package. It didn't have a whole lot of resources - the usual Matthew Henry's, KJV, Strong's, etc. - but it was enough to get me hooked. Before long, I had unlocked one or two commentaries, and a Bible or two. I was using the Strong's numbers to look into the original language - a tool I never even knew existed until Logos made it accessible to me. And by the time I entered seminary and discovered that they used it there, too, I was willing to invest some serious money in my Logos library.

I've since purchased thousands of dollars' worth of Logos software and resources, and have convinced family and colleagues that it's worth their investment, too.

But that's a lot harder than it needs to be when the barrier to entry is $150. Very few people are serious enough about Bible study to spend that kind of money on Bible software, and certainly not sight unseen.

I understand that a minimal package like I purchased doesn't really give the whole "Logos experience," but I don't think it needs to. All it has to do is give Christians a useful tool that broadens their concept of studying the Bible and whets their whistle for more. It's a gateway drug, really. [;)]

What if Wal-Mart's $10 software selection included a Logos starter set? What if Logos fans could direct their family and friends to a free download of L4 and a few basic resources? (Yes, they could get the free eBible demo in L3 and then download the new L4 engine, but that's a lot of work - I'm talking a one-click install here.)

The iPhone app is a great example of this sort of marketing, and I think it's going to be very successful, both in its own right and as a tool for bringing new people to Logos Bible Software. But there's a whole population of potential users out there who are never going to use Logos right now, either because they'll never encounter it, or because $150 is a lot to spend on an application for most people.

I don't know what sort of costs are involved in getting a jewel-cased CD into mainstream stores. I don't know what sort of issues there might be with creating a cheap/free downloadable starter kit. All I know is Logos' current pricing/marketing (with the exception of the iPhone app) makes it very unlikely that they're going to catch Christians outside of the clerical/academic folds. And that would be a real shame!

Mark Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/91903#Comment_91903

I think there's a strong case to be made for: (1) Creating a very inexpensive (maybe even free to download) collection of resources, and (2) getting that collection in every Wal-Mart, Target, and Barnes & Noble.

Unless Logos went to a fee-based support system, installation issues alone for such an offering would swamp Logos Tech Support.

Second, people will then balk at spending real money after getting something for free/almost for free.

I understand that a minimal package like I purchased doesn't really give the whole "Logos experience," but I don't think it needs to.

This where I have to disagree. Logos cannot be appreciated with a small library of public domain works. People will leave unimpressed and will not spend more. I have complained many times that to appeal to lay persons (small group leaders, Sunday School teachers, active Bible studiers) that Logos needed a good multi-volume commentary set that covers the whole Bible, is high quality, and doesn't cost an arm and a leg. JF&B and Matthew Henry don't cut it (don't stone me!).

Guess what? Logos has that right now for the first time. The Tyndale Commentary. If Logos tries anything new, I'd wrap that puppy up with a couple of interlinear Bibles, a half-way decent Bible dictionary (like Erdmans' more expensive one), their maps, timelines, Nave's Topical Bible, and the visual data from L4 and sell it for no more than $199. Not many resources but something solid.

Then I'd offer some upgrade bundles: say four-five more modern Bibles in one, two-three single or two-volume commentaries in another, a Backgrounds, manners, and customs bundle, a prayer bundle, a doctrines bundle (a couple of flavors, please), etc. to entice additions in logical progressions to go further in Bible study. Then promote some of the bundles that lay persons might already be interested in: MacArthur, Wiersbe, Jeremiah (add your own). Get them started with quality and offer not single resources but chosen bundles of resources to move up to the next level. Use the Home Page to target those with this intro bundle and offer occasional special discounts on a package for 24 hours or a few days (like Amazon's lightning deals, but a little longer).

A significant problem with small sets of resources is that they don't show off Logos' strength: the ability to own and use a vast library of resources for Bible study. I don't think they are effective show-pieces. I also don't think loading something up with fluff benefits Logos. People will go back for seconds of good food, not warmed over left-overs from another era.

Enough said.

This conversation will go on, but Logos has made up its mind. I don't think we are going to change it. On to another, more fruitful issue, I say.

Stein Dahl

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/87955#Comment_87955

The "attrition" was very high (software that mysteriously disappeared and therefore Logos absorbed the loss) and the sales were very weak...it was never a large part of their market...so they decided to just severe the tie.

Why not keep Logos Bible software in the Christian bookstores?

Of course it's not going to be a major part of the overall sales of Logos 4, but at least it's a running advertisement that's continually there - where people can see it.

I bought my first Logos product in a Christian bookstore and I wouldn't have even known that it existed if it wasn't out there to be seen.

I understand the thinking of Logos, from a business stand point, especially if they were relying on "in store presence" as a source of sales, but I still think it's a mistake to pull out all together because they should be thinking of it as a continual advertising opportunity, and nothing else.

At least people will know it's available - especially people who would never do a Google search for Bible Software.

Mark Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/91912#Comment_91912

I understand the thinking of Logos, from a business stand point, especially if they were relying on "in store presence" as a source of sales, but I still think it's a mistake to pull out all together because they should be thinking of it as a continual advertising opportunity, and nothing else.

Advertising that produces no sales??? Huh? Who wants to do that?

Logos pulled it because their data showed very few sales and a good degree of theft or missing product to boot. Again, why do you want to continue to pour money into that??

The point is Logos tried it, the number of sales was not zero (some of you) but it was not enough to justify keeping that channel open. End of story. Let's use our energy to help Logos find a better way to get the word out if we really are interested in increasing their sales.

Bohuslav Wojnar

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/91909#Comment_91909

This where I have to disagree. Logos cannot be appreciated with a small library of public domain works. People will leave unimpressed and will not spend more.

Mark, I agree with all you say. You are right. Logos is very complex Bible software for serious Bible study and IMHO it should stay that way. To gain people who are not willing to pay for the Bible more than $25 would not do any good.

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/91939#Comment_91939

To gain people who are not willing to pay for the Bible more than $25 would not do any good.

I don't really have an opinion on the matter, but consider the possibility of Logos shared files for a congregation - pastor, Sunday School teachers, youth ministers, worship planners etc. Different people using different features. It isn't a big jump from that to members of the congregation having stripped down, inexpensive Logos for their weekday studies.

Robert Pavich

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/91939#Comment_91939

I must agree with Mark here...Logos is NOT a low-end-public-domain piece of blble software and the problem is...others do that job well...why would anyone change to Logos?

Most people don't get why they'd want Logos...they say "I'm using E-XXX" why do I want that? They have no clue that the resources that they are using are free for a reason; that BDAG just might be better than say ...Strong's?

While I understand the "gateway drug" thing...I think Logos would be better served with demos; as many as they could afford to have; showing WHY someone would need to spend 500.00 on bible software...

And those who understand it...would buy....

Paul Golder

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/91939#Comment_91939

Mark, I agree with all you say. You are right. Logos is very complex Bible software for serious Bible study and IMHO it should stay that way. To gain people who are not willing to pay for the Bible more than $25 would not do any good.

"All Christians are equal, but some Christians are more equal than others." [:)]

Bob Pritchett

I appreciate all the suggestions! It's really interesting to see the same business discussions we have internally being held again with different people and different perspectives.

I've previously addressed why we don't sell in bookstores anymore (the bottom line: it stopped working -- they just weren't selling much), so I won't revisit that. But the discussion of the cheap starter / trial library reminded me of a good example.

Would you eat at a very expensive restaurant run by Chef Boyardee?

Probably not. Because if you're a fan of his inexpensive "taste of" product, you probably don't eat at very expensive restaurants. And if you do regularly eat at very expensive restaurants, you probably think Chef Boyardee isn't the pinnacle of quality dining.

But Ettore Boiardi was head chef at New York's Plaza Hotel before opening his own restaurant, at which diners begged for small bottles of sauce to take home. He obliged, eventually canning it and changing the spelling of his name to something more phonetic for English speakers.

Sorry if that's not a perfect fit... I've just been looking for a way to use this story... :-)

Even better might be to ask why there's no $9,000 starter edition Lexus. A way to get people into the Lexus brand when they're young and poor and can't afford a luxury car.

Because in this case, while brand management is part of the answer -- as it is for Chef Boyardee, who ultimately could only live at one end of the market -- there's also the fact that what makes a Lexus a Lexus is something expensive to provide: quality engineering, attention to detail, expensive components, and expensive-to-provide customer service. At $9,000 you can't offer a Lexus. Maybe something cheap and poorly supported with a Lexus nameplate, but not a Lexus.

That's how we feel about Logos. It's a powerful tool for working with a large library of quality Bible reference tools, which rewards an investment in learning to use it, all backed by stellar service. As a small collection of cheap books it's not nearly as attractive: it offers less content, the software seems "overpowering" for the content it has, it takes too much to learn to use, and we can't afford to offer the same service.

I think many of you are right: there is a (large) market of "lower-need" Bible students, many of whom might become full-fledged Logos users. But I don't think a cheap, trial Logos is the right way to reach them. Look for us to use a different brand, a different approach, and maybe even a different pricing model. (See http://bible.logos.com for a hint of where we're going. Or http://betabible.logos.com for an even bigger hint.)

Bohuslav Wojnar

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/91962#Comment_91962

Mark, I agree with all you say. You are right. Logos is very complex Bible software for serious Bible study and IMHO it should stay that way. To gain people who are not willing to pay for the Bible more than $25 would not do any good.

"All Christians are equal, but some Christians are more equal than others."

Paul, I hope you just joke. The thing I wanted to say was that it is a
matter of preferences. There are people who would use Gedeon's free Bible for
their reading but have a motorbike for a weekend rides. Nothing against a
motorbikes but it shows preferences IMHO.

Terry Poperszky

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/92052#Comment_92052

for a hint of where we're going. Or http://betabible.logos.com for an even bigger hint.)

Color me impressed. I see a sync button! [:O]

Now Bob, you realize this isn't the "private forum", are we supposed to keep quiet about this beta as well? [;)]

Robert Pavich

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/92067#Comment_92067

Paul, I hope you just joke. The thing I wanted to say was that it is a matter of preferences. There are people who would use Gedeon's free Bible for their reading but have a motorbike for a weekend rides. Nothing against a motorbikes but it shows preferences IMHO.

I've had that conversation too many times to count.

Me: "Did you see my logos software? Pretty cool eh?"

Them: "Oh yeah....that's cool...is it free?"

Me: "no...it was about 650.00 when I bought it.

Them: "Whoa! That's a lot of cash!"

Me: "Well....when you think about it....it's only about 80.00 a month...I'll be you spend at least 50.00 a month on McDonalds"...

Them: "...well yeah..."

Me: "...and how much do you spend on your motorcycle a month?"

Them: "..well..i'm buying a new rim and tire now....about 350.00

Me..."hmmm.....

Priorities....

Paul Golder

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/92067#Comment_92067

Mark, I agree with all you say. You are right. Logos is very complex Bible software for serious Bible study and IMHO it should stay that way. To gain people who are not willing to pay for the Bible more than $25 would not do any good.

"All Christians are equal, but some Christians are more equal than others."

Paul, I hope you just joke. The thing I wanted to say was that it is a
matter of preferences. There are people who would use Gedeon's free Bible for
their reading but have a motorbike for a weekend rides. Nothing against a
motorbikes but it shows preferences IMHO.

Yes it was a joke. I completely agree that in it's present form, L4 is not an entry level tool for the average user.

I also figured that Bob was way too savvy of a business man to not get a share of the entry level market, and with his succeeding post it looks like we can see that he is building a business model that will attract those who buy sub-compact software into desiring (and perhaps purchasing) a Luxury version one day.

( PS. My friend's Harley was more expensive than my house was... [;)] )

Bob Pritchett

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/92072#Comment_92072

Now Bob, you realize this isn't the "private forum", are we supposed to keep quiet about this beta as well?

This is open to the public, though a very early beta. And this was the first mention of it.... you heard it here first. :-)

Terry Poperszky

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/92085#Comment_92085

This is open to the public, though a very early beta. And this was the first mention of it.... you heard it here first. :-)

So instead of the 49.99 starter edition, you introduce them to it across the web, utilizing free resources. This is similar to the iPhone app model which is primarily the reason I upgraded from Mac 1.22 to L4. Then,when I saw the functionality of L4 and the additional resources being offered I dropped another 600 to upgrade my base package. That free iPhone application cost me over 700.00. [:O]

Not a bad business model.

Bohuslav Wojnar

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/92081#Comment_92081

( PS. My friend's Harley was more expensive than my house was... )

Ha, that was prophetic [:P]

Sorry, I didn't want to hurt your feelings. When I grow and be old and rich, I will buy one too [H]

You know, actually some years ago we started the first Christian Motorbikes Club in the country. They have a great ministry now.